Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rainbowmage 02-04-04, 07:25 PM	I've got a DM who believes that clerics are overpowered. He won't let his players play them. No good RP reason (we're in Faerun for Sune's sake!), he just thinks they're too powerful. He lets all the other classes and prestige classes play with no hesitation. Anyone have suggestions how to persuade him of the error of his ways? Or do you agree with him?
Deekin 02-04-04, 07:30 PM	Try asking him why he thinks clerics are overpowered. If it is besouse they can cast spells and fight desently remind him they have to make a Concentration check or lose the spell. If he says they just are, however, Whack him with a book.
WizO_Catoblepas 02-04-04, 07:33 PM	Actually, they are a little overpowered, but it is due usually to the fact that in the game that I normally play, the cleric is the last class chosen by the players. Your experience may be different, but that is what I've seen. I think that it has to do with wonderful roleplaying options of the rogue, combat abilities of the fighting class, or powerful magic of the wizard-type classes. (Ok eveyone say it with me) ... At the end of the day, it is really up to the DM to what classes he wants the players to play in his campaign. Unless you really, really want to play a cleric, I wouldn't worry about it. Othrswise, just talk it over with him and see where he feel the cleric is "too powerful", see what your group can house to compensate, and see if you would mind playing the resultant class. Otherwise, I'd think you'll just have to wait until another person DMs your group.
was_fired 02-04-04, 07:33 PM	To be fair they are when built right. Now thankfully most don't know how to bring out the true power of the class so they end up making a heal battery, but I do agree with him. Even still you can't really ban clerics since they are required as healers. Just ask him if bringing them down to a d6 would balance them in his eyes since that is only slightly more HP than a wizard who has a better spell-list.
Crave 02-04-04, 07:34 PM	I can see where he's coming from with this one. They get two high saves, medium bab, ability to spontaneously cast all of the cure spells (or the inflict), he dosn't suffer spell failure, and he dosn't have to worry about to little spells. Also, acess to domain spells and extra abilities by domains is ALLOT of stuff. A cleric can walk into battle wearing full plated armor, created by the heaviest of diamonds and steel, forged under a dwarvish mountain then given to a gnomish hill granting it +5, and has one lair of chainmail crafted by elves with a special technique adding its weight and granting damage reduction while holding a tower shield and a heavy mace, and STILL cast cure light wounds without having any kind of percent of failure, something might be up...
DM Zoc 02-04-04, 07:43 PM	They are only powerful on paper; they have more RP restrictions than most classes. Also, it seems to be a common tool even between various systems that you can make something a bit more powerful when people wouldn't otherwise play them. Take humans, for example. If still it is thought that clerics are overpowered, then try using the "healer" class from the Miniatures Handbook (it's the only thing in there that I actually think is balanced). A traditional "cleric" type would then be a healer/fighter.
The Hanged Man 02-04-04, 07:46 PM	Well, he's right, they are overpowered. But how is the party going to get healed? What about death and drain effects? The CR system basically demands that the party have a cleric in it. If clerics bug him that much, one easy fix is to let them choose only one domain instead of two. edit - I gotta disagree w/ Catoblepas on the cleric. I'd normally be right on board for the "DM can do whatever seems right" train, but clerics are absolutely necessary. It sounds like your DM's running a fairly straight Faerun campaign, so it doesn't have anywhere near all the womps and changes that a non-cleric campaign would need. I've run several adventures, and heard about a few campaigns, that didn't have clerics in them, and they were absolute disasters. It's not just the healing. Any ability drain, damage, or penalty is far deadlier than it should be w/o clerics.
rainbowmage 02-04-04, 07:51 PM	The DM I have doesn't mind Druids, just Clerics. We have 2 druids atm... and while they abide by the class restrictions of Druid, they don't 'get' them and so don't RP them. Not much penalty there. ("I'm gonna get a +5 suit of ironwood plate as soon as I can!") One of his big gripes is the cast-while-heavily-armored bit. Since our group isn't heavily RP (well, I try to be, but...) he doesn't see those things as penalties. And yes, we may have to get a Healer. I like that class.
spasheridan 02-04-04, 07:54 PM	I think nerfing a few choice cleric spells would tone down the cleric quite nicely. 1) Divine Favour 2) Rightous Might 3) Other self buff spells that make you a fighting juggernought (I can't think of any others at the moment) As long as the cleric stays as a "healer who can fight OK" they are fairly well balanced. A decent party needs their cure powers! But when the cleric becomes a "fighter who can also heal" the cleric quickly becomes overly powerful
WizO_Catoblepas 02-04-04, 08:40 PM	Originally posted by The Hanged Man edit - I gotta disagree w/ Catoblepas on the cleric. I'd normally be right on board for the "DM can do whatever seems right" train, but clerics are absolutely necessary. It sounds like your DM's running a fairly straight Faerun campaign, so it doesn't have anywhere near all the womps and changes that a non-cleric campaign would need. I've run several adventures, and heard about a few campaigns, that didn't have clerics in them, and they were absolute disasters. It's not just the healing. Any ability drain, damage, or penalty is far deadlier than it should be w/o clerics. Allow me to clarify: I thought that the original poster was saying that the DM stated that the party could have a cleric - however, the cleric had to be an NPC. To this, I can see where the DM is saying that the cleric is overpowered for a player character. However, if the DM is saying that there a no clerics in his world, then I would agree that this is a little extreme. I've also played in a group without clerics. (Two barabrians and a rogue)Eventually you just burn all of you gold on healing kits and healing potions. Eventually, the DM allowed us to hire a healer at a hefty price - and we ended up saving money in the long run.
Glak 02-04-04, 08:59 PM	Yes the cleric is overpowered. So what? Doesn't you DM want a cleric in the party? He should, it makes things easier for him. For example your party fights a monster and the fighter takes a lot of damage. Then the next encounter is an ambush and the fighter dies from wounds from the previous battle. Is that what the DM intended? No, he wanted the encounters to be separate. Sure he wanted the party worn out a bit from the previous encounter, but he didn't really want it focused on one character. Healing between battles makes the game a lot better. The ability to cast while wearing armor means that a cleric can heal front line fighters during battle. I see that as a good thing. It leads to cooperation and all that. The cleric is overpowered so that the other classes can get a heal when they want it. If most of the players play clerics and that isn't what the DM is going for well then he can ask you guys to limit yourselves to two clerics per party or something like that. The party that I am DMing right now is a dream: Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger/Rogue, Cleric, Bard. It works out perfectly for me, I could not ask for a better choice of classes for how I want to run the campaign.
Lago AM3P 02-04-04, 09:53 PM	The 'buffing cleric' juggernaut still can't match the melee damage output of a wizard or druid or a non-lazily built high level warrior style. The cleric gets crazily overpowered, however, in the defensive magic department. Even in the core rules, it's almost ridiculously easy to become immune to most damage forms; a cleric with the plant domain, quicken spell feat, and a prayer bead of karma can ignore 80% of spells from casters of similar level, become immune to arrows and bolts, and never be threatened by a non-reach melee weapon after a round's worth of buffing (cast anti-life shell ahead of time, quicken a spell resistance from a prayer bead of karma, and then cast repel wood normally).
lanilifar 02-05-04, 12:57 AM	If you want to play a cleric, and the DM thinks they are overpowered (which they are), then suggest modifications. This is my favorite mod: Core rules let clerics "know" all the spells on their spell list plus their domain spells. Change this to: They know the spells in their domains when they reach the right level They know all 0th level spells At first level they know 5+ wis mod spells from the 1st level cleric spell list. Every level they learn 5+wis mod spells on the cleric spell list of any level they can cast.
Kaya Kenobi 02-05-04, 03:34 AM	No... Unless you allow a godless cleric take the Str and war domain and run around with two weapon fighting swords.. lanilifar, just go with the Mystic from the DLCS. Anyways, Clerics are powerful, but not overpowered unless you let them run around unchecked, unchallenged.
Ymrais 02-05-04, 03:50 AM	The DM doesn't know what they are doing. Taken from the SRD: Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. The key word there is PRAY. Especially in Faerun, just because you ask for a spell, doesn't mean that the deity will grant it. (an interpretation of the rules I learned from a DM who ran a 2nd edition when I was stuck playing a cleric, that I've made a houserule for my 3/3.5 games.) Alternatively, if they are deity-less (not likely in faerun) and must meditate, the DM could always say your meditations do not lead to that spell, but you sense you need these instead. Even deity-less clerics get their power from some external force of good (otherwise they'd be more a psion than a cleric), who say's the positive energy plane isn't semi-sentient and chooses what spells to grant? Sure, they look powerful on paper even taking both my above statement and alignment restrictions on spells into consideration. Full 9 level spellcasting while being able to wear the heaviest armor without penalty. Their healing more than makes up for the lower BAB unless the DM is specifically making enemy AC high enough that a cleric or much less wizard will never hit. This shouldn't be a problem with rogues who are usually dex/finese and have a higher attack bonus unless the cleric is boosting their own strength a lot. Mention some of these things to the DM.
adiaven 02-05-04, 04:06 AM	clerics are the most powerful core class. But banning them outright is silly. Just make a few house rule modifications - hit dice to d6 - no heavy armor profeciency (make em use a feat to get heavy) - ban the feat persistent spell (from FRCS) that is one feat that makes clerics insanely powerful
Kaya Kenobi 02-05-04, 10:15 AM	I banned Persistent Spell because it made any spellcaster insanely powerful.
dantedarkstar 02-05-04, 10:23 AM	Perhaps he will allow to just play Wizard, but with Cleric spell list then ? Of course unless he thinks cleric list alone is overpowered (which isn't really true, it's the mix of many factors that make clerics most powerful).
Kaya Kenobi 02-05-04, 10:28 AM	Originally posted by dantedarkstar Perhaps he will allow to just play Wizard, but with Cleric spell list then ? Of course unless he thinks cleric list alone is overpowered (which isn't really true, it's the mix of many factors that make clerics most powerful). Right, the list of spells are weak compared to the Druid and wizard.
Lago AM3P 02-05-04, 10:52 AM	I banned Persistent Spell because it made any spellcaster insanely powerful. Yeah. Persistent Spell doesn't even come close to broken in the hands of the cleric, compared to what a wizard with creative and no morals can do with it. It's some hot stuff.
Dan-STC 02-05-04, 12:51 PM	Originally posted by Kaya Kenobi Anyways, Clerics are powerful, but not overpowered unless you let them run around unchecked, unchallenged. What methods do you use to keep the clerics in check? A few things I could think of would be possibly finding a way to temporarily cut them off from their deity, holding them to a strict code of conduct akin to paladins, encountering an enemy spellcaster who can counter divine magic, etc. etc. etc.
Caelum 02-05-04, 12:58 PM	Originally posted by WizO_Catoblepas Actually, they are a little overpowered, but it is due usually to the fact that in the game that I normally play, the cleric is the last class chosen by the players. Your experience may be different, but that is what I've seen. I think that it has to do with wonderful roleplaying options of the rogue, combat abilities of the fighting class, or powerful magic of the wizard-type classes. Catoblepas nailed it I think. I think WOTC even said somewhere once that the cleric was buffed because they just weren't cool. Rangers were nerfed because it just sounds cool... "I'm a Ranger." It's kinda like "I'm Batman."
Orcish Fury 02-05-04, 01:51 PM	A cleric can be very powerful, but in my experience they are too busy healing to be casting crazy buff spells on themselves. The cleric that charges into melee in full plate isn't helping the party as much as one who stays back and supports the party, so I don't see their armor proficiencies as too much of a boost. It just keeps them from being cut down as easily. If you must, restrict armor proficiency based off of the god worshipped. Sure, Torm or Helm may love to have their clerics decked out in the finest platemail, but would a cleric of Sune, or Ohgma?
DungeonlessMaster 02-05-04, 01:59 PM	Ok, I would like to put my two cents in 1) Clerics are still often the last class chosen in d&d groups. Even in groups of relatively experienced players. This was so much more true in second edition that this only came up becuase of reason two 2) People are then shocked when a class they didn't see much value in is essential to the parties survival in most d&d games. Now I do not want to start an angry shouting match about how much roll playing is done by the "typical" d&d group but all the rulebooks are geared towards an understanding that PC's are going to do a fair share of "dungeon diving". In those campaigns Clerics are a MUST HAVE. Check your dmg under encounters. CLERICS AND BARDS WILL MAKE MOST ENCOUNTERS EASIER! Healing is good! 3) The cleric is supposed to fight, reducing his hitpoints and taking away heavy armor would restrict him to a second row position. He is supposed to stand next to the parties +1 BAB character and after using a host of spells, fight shoulder to shoulder with him. 4) The clerics unrestricted spell list is not as great a benefit as it would seem. First of all a cleric is limited to casting spells not restricted by alignment and diety. Good clerics can't cast any animate dead spells, or if you are playing with the Book of Vile darkness even doom. Novice players often don't think of terrrifying combonations. Experiernced players find that there combonations of spells are all to often broken up by the need for healing. However, so long as you don't change spontaneous casting limiti his spell list. The player won't care as much as you think! Changing the cleric would revert him to his second edition incarnation where nobody every played a cleric they played cleric/fighter half-elves and dwarves. He needs what he has got because who wants to be able to do nothing but spend the whole night saying "now I heal Rob... i mean Ithnantillous"
Korhal_IV 02-05-04, 02:40 PM	Clerics are overpowered the way Britney is a nun. The total benefits of d8 HD and heavy armor proficiency still make the cleric weaker than a fighter, barbarian, ranger, or paladin. They make him slightly better than a druid, but a druid has some nice weapon proficiencies to compensate. The total benefit of a cleric's domains is usually laughable, unless you go out of your way to pick a deity who grants really awesome domains - even then, though, those deities tend to put heavy alignment restrictions on clerics. Additionally, while the cleric has awesome buff and healing abilities, he has little to nothing available in the direct-damage department. Sound Burst? Don't make me laugh. Even Harm got nerfed tremendously. The cleric's bonuses are there to alleviate the fact that most of the time you're going to be standing there binding wounds. The fighter looks less overpowered, but he's going to be having much more fun. Further, the cleric is tied to an organization - his church. If the DM doesn't start pounding home orders from superiors or quests, or lost holy artifacts, or even religious intolerance, the DM is seriously inexperienced or uncreative. Banning stuff is the hallmark of a petty, controlling DM. Which this guy sounds like. :mad:
Hogre 02-05-04, 05:22 PM	If you stick to 25 point buy, then the cleric is not overpowered. The game really should have been playtested at something closer to 30-32 point buy, but that is irrelevant. If you really want to weaken the cleric and druid without changing much, then drop them to a d6 hit die. It never made sense that a priest should be tougher than a thief anyway.
epchristi 02-05-04, 06:41 PM	Originally posted by spasheridan I think nerfing a few choice cleric spells would tone down the cleric quite nicely. 1) Divine Favour 2) Rightous Might 3) Other self buff spells that make you a fighting juggernought (I can't think of any others at the moment) As long as the cleric stays as a "healer who can fight OK" they are fairly well balanced. A decent party needs their cure powers! But when the cleric becomes a "fighter who can also heal" the cleric quickly becomes overly powerful Actually.. I think cleric's are balanced. Low skills and few feats make them easy to track down, if the enemy focuses on them. I also think divine favor, divine power and righteous might when persisted present a way to be over balanced. Someone said this on a thread I had created about clerics, I think it was gsFunny, but Clerics are balanced because of the duration of the spells. See.. the aforementioned spells only get bad when they all stack. Divine Favor, in and of itself, isn't bad. But because it's a luck bonus, that stacks with divine power (enchantment) and righteous might (size), you can get unwieldy strengths. So.. the way to fix it, is make them all enchantment bonuses. Or.. Have divine Power only give the BAB of a fighter, and get rid of the strength bonus. Really.. those are the spells, in combination, that can make a cleric overpowered. But the DM has a tool to use against this. It's called Dispel Magic.. takes those down real fast. Or.. hit you while your sleeping. Or.. hit you from the air. There are lots of ways to work around that power, and put the cleric back in their place.
JohnSnow 02-05-04, 06:52 PM	clerics are the most powerful core class. But banning them outright is silly. Just make a few house rule modifications - hit dice to d6 - no heavy armor profeciency (make em use a feat to get heavy) - ban the feat persistent spell (from FRCS) that is one feat that makes clerics insanely powerful Let's see....d6 for hit dice...no heavy armor proficiency....Ohmigod! It's the Shugenja from Oriental Adventures! Granted, they have slightly more sorcerous flavor (and the limitation of "favored element" to balance it), but it's pretty much a toned-down cleric. Rangers seriously need to be unnerfed. Right now, they're clearly less powerful than the cleric, and probably the Druid too (not kidding). No? So you'd be willing to trade full Spellcasting, Domain Powers, the ability to turn undead, the ability to spontaneously cast cure spells, and Medium and Heavy armor proficiency for 4 skill points per level, martial weapon proficiency, and the Ranger special abilities? Thought not.
Votan 02-05-04, 06:58 PM	Originally posted by Dan-STC What methods do you use to keep the clerics in check? A few things I could think of would be possibly finding a way to temporarily cut them off from their deity, holding them to a strict code of conduct akin to paladins, encountering an enemy spellcaster who can counter divine magic, etc. etc. etc. Dispel Magic. The cleric is only a tough melee fighter if they have tons of buffs stacking. Intelligent opponents (and even not so intelligent opponents) will know this. Clerics are common. Their strengths are well known. Dispel Magic means that those buffs are not going to matter half so much. Without the buffs, a cleric is about a melee capable as a well played rogue (assumign each has equal stat points). Stronger against undead, weaker against humaniods (where flanking sneak attacks will be deadly). Arbitrarily cutting them off from tehir deity is a bit unfair unless done for good plot reasons. Code of conduct works well with Toom but maybe less so with Vecna or Kord. But a fighter will beat an unbuffed cleric every time. If the cleric tries to bring their buffs back up this is a good time to hit them hard with attacks. With only 2 skill points per level (and so many stats to optimize) they are not goignt o be good at everything and concentration is a skill.
Twisted Puppy 02-06-04, 10:53 AM	I'll have to weigh in on the side of those who agree the cleric is fairly well balanced. While yes, he can do some very impressive buffs, an intelligent opponent will note what he is doing and wait until he has two or more of those spells up, then hit him with a Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic, and that will power him down considerably. The relatively few feats available to a cleric, and low number of skill points, also put him at a disadvantage when compared to wizards. Wizards get the metamagic or item creation feat every 5 levels, and their high intelligence also benefits their skills, even if the number of class skills is limited. A human cleric has an advantage with an extra feat and extra skill points, but not a decisive one. If a cleric takes a high Intelligence to improve skills, then odds are that he is accepting lower scores in Strength, Constitution, or Charisma. (Sorry, I have yet to see a Cleric with a high Dexterity score.)
Votan 02-06-04, 01:34 PM	Originally posted by Twisted Puppy I'll have to weigh in on the side of those who agree the cleric is fairly well balanced. While yes, he can do some very impressive buffs, an intelligent opponent will note what he is doing and wait until he has two or more of those spells up, then hit him with a Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic, and that will power him down considerably. The relatively few feats available to a cleric, and low number of skill points, also put him at a disadvantage when compared to wizards. Wizards get the metamagic or item creation feat every 5 levels, and their high intelligence also benefits their skills, even if the number of class skills is limited. A human cleric has an advantage with an extra feat and extra skill points, but not a decisive one. If a cleric takes a high Intelligence to improve skills, then odds are that he is accepting lower scores in Strength, Constitution, or Charisma. (Sorry, I have yet to see a Cleric with a high Dexterity score.) Depends on what you mean by high but my "survivor elf cleric" (Flarlanghn with travel and luck, N alignment) is: S 10 D 12 Cn 12 I 14 W 15 Ch 10 with 28 pts. Summons creatures for melee and then uses his bow effectively. Rarely wears heavy armor becasue it just doesn't fit with the diety except under special circumstances. Although I'd admit that if he were anything BUT an elf a 14 Con would have priority over a 12 dexterity.
Nick Soapdish 02-06-04, 02:22 PM	Originally posted by Votan Dispel Magic. The cleric is only a tough melee fighter if they have tons of buffs stacking. Intelligent opponents (and even not so intelligent opponents) will know this. Clerics are common. Their strengths are well known. Dispel Magic means that those buffs are not going to matter half so much. Without the buffs, a cleric is about a melee capable as a well played rogue (assumign each has equal stat points). Stronger against undead, weaker against humaniods (where flanking sneak attacks will be deadly). Arbitrarily cutting them off from tehir deity is a bit unfair unless done for good plot reasons. Code of conduct works well with Toom but maybe less so with Vecna or Kord. But a fighter will beat an unbuffed cleric every time. If the cleric tries to bring their buffs back up this is a good time to hit them hard with attacks. With only 2 skill points per level (and so many stats to optimize) they are not goignt o be good at everything and concentration is a skill. Dispel Magic isn't a great answer for a fighter or most monsters though.
epchristi 02-06-04, 02:35 PM	Originally posted by Nick Soapdish Dispel Magic isn't a great answer for a fighter or most monsters though. Well.. it depends on the monster.. and depends on the fighter. :) If the fighter is alone.. then I agree. If the fighter is with a balanced party.. then I don't agree. For monsters.. there are many that have dispelling capabilities.. but the biggest way to avoid a buffed cleric is to fly... and even more of those have the ability to fly. The DM has many many tools at his disposal to counterbalance a cleric.. which is what the assertion of the original post was. The DM didn't think cleric was balanced, so he has outlawed it. A comment made that the DM wasn't very creative, and not knowing all the details, on the surface I would agree. Dragons, shamans (clerics) from any monsters (remember monsters can be character classes too), and many monsters with high AC and high HP all work well. Clerics are slow too.. especially in full plate. Give the fighter light armor, spring attack, and some speed.. they run in, hit the cleric on their way by. Spirited charge will work too. Sure, the cleric can ready against the charge, but only if someone else isn't near him. Most encounters aren't 5 PC's on 1 monster.. If so.. than all the classes are out of balance. :) Now.. this doesn't address the archer cleric.. which is an interesting build. But in 3.5 the durations of buffs are down and cat's grace is no longer a cleric spell, reducing their effectiveness. Persistent divine favor is good for the archer cleric, but not until 9th level.. and divine power, not until 15th level. But then, is the cleric being an archer at 15th level with a really good BAB your worst threat? I would be more afraid of the cleric with major area of effect 8th level spells, than one with persistent divine power. :) (or any other numerous scary 8th and 9th level spells.) And if you take persistent out of the equation.. then clerics aren't able to have divine favor 24/7.. or divine power 24/7... and only through very good timing can they get them all going at once. But by then, the battle is over. So.. if the DM thinks clerics are overpowered, ask why? If it's because of divine favor/power/righteous might, etc.. they are limited to rounds/level, just have the fight start, have the bad guys run for 7 rounds, then hit them again. The cleric will be useless.. if it's because of those spells being persisted.. get rid of the persistent feat. In the end.. I think flying/dispel magic/greater dispell .. attacks with large numbers of bad guys.... fast rogues and barbarians... charging fighters, and even bad-guy clerics all can balance out even the most buffed cleric.
Hogre 02-06-04, 02:41 PM	Build a 25 point buy fighter and a 25 point buy cleric. Level them up to whatever level and give them suitable equipment, assume both are "armor wearers" for simplicity. Let the cleric cast buffs and you will see that the fighter is still better for combat. A lot of cleric buffs don't stack with the magic items that you will find later. Besides that, in combat the only stats that really need to be buffed are strength and constitution. The fighter will generally already have magic items that match the cleric's buffs, except the fighter doesn't have to waste time "spelling-up". Of course the cleric could have the same items, but the fighter is still better because he had higher strength and constitution to start.
Lago AM3P 02-06-04, 03:01 PM	Of course, polymorph any object (the biggest offender of the stat-replacement system) makes a lot of stat-stuff irrelevant, as both characters can be changed into angels or whatever. So. That basically leaves BAB, saves, skills, and class abilities. I wonder who's going to win that. Though, this is more of a problem with straight-classed fighters (and all core full-BAB characters), as this pattern repeats for pretty much everyone.
epchristi 02-06-04, 03:23 PM	Originally posted by Hogre Build a 25 point buy fighter and a 25 point buy cleric. Level them up to whatever level and give them suitable equipment, assume both are "armor wearers" for simplicity. Let the cleric cast buffs and you will see that the fighter is still better for combat. Actually.. I have done this. It was posted on the character optimization board and under the given rules for the contest, the cleric won hands down. It was done for 9th level and 20th level characters.. and it was a who could make the best build contest. This results, however, because the rules allowed many of the buff spells to be present for the battle. When those buffs are in place, clerics are monsters.. I agree, however, that in general.. tactics and feats of a fighter make them a better fighter class than a cleric. This contest didn't prove that out to any degree. Originally posted by Hogre A lot of cleric buffs don't stack with the magic items that you will find later. Besides that, in combat the only stats that really need to be buffed are strength and constitution. The fighter will generally already have magic items that match the cleric's buffs, except the fighter doesn't have to waste time "spelling-up". Of course the cleric could have the same items, but the fighter is still better because he had higher strength and constitution to start. And this is what makes the cleric better in that sense. Over time, the cleric's buffs last longer and longer, to the point they last all day. Magic Vestments, Weapon of the Diety, Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might can all be made to last all day by 15th and 17th level. There is no reason to buy magic armor.. so you can spend it on making the armor adamantine or mithral. The cleric can buy a prayer bead of karma, that with the +4 caster level, gives them a BAB that is 4 higher than the fighter. And in all these cases, by this level, the cleric need not waste time "spelling up"... which is why if you take away the persistent feat, you stop that concern. So.. it's true that in certain periods of time, as allowed by the buffing cleric and their domains, they can be far better than a good or average fighter. But.. until they reach 17th level.. a fighter is almost always a better fighter than a cleric. (IMHO) But.. check out these threads on the exact same subject: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=146827 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=146557
adiaven 02-06-04, 03:43 PM	why would a high level cleric go into a melee with a fighter? with that spell selection, they could end the fight without swinging a weapon... the only way the fighter would have a chance is if the fight started at close range.
Lago AM3P 02-06-04, 04:19 PM	why would a high level cleric go into a melee with a fighter? Just to embarrass them, mostly. The best cleric builds focus on defensive magic rather than offensive one--as once you're immune to most of the fighter's primary attacks, there's really not much more left on the fighter's side. Otherwise, it just comes down to a battle of nuke fights--and it's not like a fighter can't go through a cleric already if he wins initiative. It's in the same category as the tarrasque; once you avoid his primary method of attacks, usually by flying, IT CAN'T WIN. You start at a draw, and neem down his defenses to the point where you will always win.
epchristi 02-06-04, 04:22 PM	Originally posted by adiaven why would a high level cleric go into a melee with a fighter? They wouldn't. I agree with you. :) The point is.. so often it's pointed out that clerics are over-powered because of the persistent feat and because of stacking melee bonuses. I think that's wrong. I think they allow a cleric to play a certain way.. but I don't necessarily think it's their best strategy. I don't think cleric spells are any more powerful than wizard spells.. (or sorcerers.. who can pound out a lot more of them as well)... I just think clerics are different.. and everyone gets hung up on the persistent buff spells.. and that's why they say clerics are over-powered. I just don't think they are.. at least not for that reason.. and if you are going to outlaw clerics.. get rid of wizards too. Power Word @!Whatever@! with no save and nasty effects.. teleport.. pop in .. drop a big bomb.. pop out.. wizards are overpowered.. I rule them out. Rogues sneak attack does +LVL*d6 for one hit.. that's too powerful.. I outlaw them in my campaign. Druids polymorph into super beings.. raises their stats too high.. that's too powerful.. I rule them out too. Monks.. they hardly get hit by anything, are too fast, do 1d20, get 5 attacks with no penalty.. that's too powerful.. no more monks in my campaign either. Bards.. they have way too many skills now, can cast spells, and can fight.. that's too many abilities, I rule them out of my campaign. Barbarians can't be sneak attacked.. no biggie, rogues aren't allowed, but d12 hp and rage abilities.. that seems too tough for me.. I think they can't be in my campaign either. and so on and so on.. It seems ridiculous that cleric's aren't allowed in this DM's campaign. As Wiz O' put it.. that's a little extreme. :) The cool thing about 3rd edition and 3.5 is that each class has something really cool about it. Not everyone sees that the same way, but each class does have something unique about it. Focusing on that strength makes each one over-powered in unique situations. (rogues in the dark, for example.) :) Well.. fighters with tons of feats.. lots of classes have tons of feats.. so I am not sure they count.... so maybe this DM should only allow fighters in his campaign. At least it's not so arbitrary then. ;) But.. I guess the short term answer to this problem is a play a 3.5 druid. Stop by the character optimization boards.. and polymorph into some of those things.. make the DM hate the druid too. But at least your party gets healing, until he outlaws the druid. ;)
Votan 02-06-04, 04:25 PM	Originally posted by adiaven why would a high level cleric go into a melee with a fighter? with that spell selection, they could end the fight without swinging a weapon... the only way the fighter would have a chance is if the fight started at close range. I'm not unconvinced that a fighter who was an archery specialist couldn't make life pretty miserable for the cleric with arrows. If the cleric keeps failing concentration checks it is going to be hard to use those spells. Or it could be in cramped quarters where the cleric just doesn't have the maneaverability to keep the fighter at bay. Still, as a cleric, I'd be much more scared of a high level monk, rogue or possibly ranger than a fighter.
Hogre 02-06-04, 04:31 PM	Originally posted by adiaven why would a high level cleric go into a melee with a fighter? The idea is that if a cleric can do the fighter's job as well as the fighter and still be able to do "other things", then the "other things" are proof that he is over powered.
Lago AM3P 02-06-04, 05:12 PM	The idea is that if a cleric can do the fighter's job as well as the fighter and still be able to do "other things", then the "other things" are proof that he is over powered. Is that because the cleric is overpowered or the fighter is underpowered? The fighter has been held up to a lot of classes that want to do the exact same thing that a fighter wants to do. Just off of the top of my head... all of the full-BAB classes, druids, arcane spellcasters who abuse the hell out of form-changing magic, and the rogue. The only two classes that haven't been routinely been trouted out as definitely proven not as good as killing things as a fighter is the monk and bard. Though don't be so sure about the bard. Hell, with just the two latest 3.5E books, I can make a BARD that can outshine a fighter. It's pretty damn easy to, too. The cleric is overpowered (defensive magic) but not because they can beat down fighters, as everyone else already does that anyway.
Ithilorien 02-06-04, 05:16 PM	Are clerics overpowered? To a degree, yes, but outright forbidding them is an approach I'd consider a bit silly. Simply chop off one spell per day and one domain, tone down Divine Favor and Righteous Might, and forbid persistent spells. Voila, what I consider a pretty balanced version of the cleric. If people in your group legitimately wish to play clerics your DM should certainly talk it out with them, as otherwise they're just being a poor DM (IMO).
epchristi 02-06-04, 05:59 PM	Originally posted by Hogre The idea is that if a cleric can do the fighter's job as well as the fighter and still be able to do "other things", then the "other things" are proof that he is over powered. I don't think a cleric does the fighter's job as well as the fighter. :) He can do one aspect of a fighter's role for a short duration extremely well. For 90 minutes a day at 9th level.. they can rock! Just don't bother them for the remaining 22 and a half hours.. (or more .. in our world days are 25 hours..) they are useless.. because they spent all their spells on buffing them selves. At 17th level.. with persistent... they spend a great deal of their high levels spells buffing for this to occur.. all for a dispel magic to take it away.. All that in tow... Fighters do fighting better... with many more feats at their disposal... they have far more options.
saetto 02-06-04, 07:03 PM	Originally posted by epchristi He can do one aspect of a fighter's role for a short duration extremely well. For 90 minutes a day at 9th level.. they can rock! Just don't bother them for the remaining 22 and a half hours.. (or more .. in our world days are 25 hours..) they are useless.. because they spent all their spells on buffing them selves. 9th level fighter: BAB +9/+4. 9th level cleric: BAB +6/+1 9th level cleric with persistent Divine Favor: +9/+4 Total spells used: 1.
Lago AM3P 02-06-04, 08:36 PM	Okay. Starting stat array, DMG Standard: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Orc Barbarian 1 / Fighter 4 / Tribal Protector 2 / Weapon Master 2 Strength: 25 (29) (30 when raging) Intelligence: 13 Constitution: 13 (17) (19 when raging) Dexterity: 12 (12) Wisdom: 8 (8) Charisma: 6 (6) HP (Average): 77 (97 when raging) AC: 21 Attacks: +23 (+19/+19/+19/+19/+14) Damage: 2d6+19 Trip Check: +20 (4 feat + 10 strength + 4 size + 2 *Trip Attack) Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, *Flurry of Strikes, *Trip Attack, EWP: Spiked Chain, WF: Spiked Chain, Weapon Specialization: Spiked Chain 66,000 GP Equipment: +2 Spiked Chain (9,450 GP) Boots of Speed (12,000 GP) +3 Mithral Full-Plate (19,500 GP) Belt of Ogre Power +4 (16,000 GP) Amulet of Health +2 (4,000 GP) Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2,000 GP) Payment for a permanent enlarge: 3000 GP Well, let's see how it would play out. Just for grins, the cleric will have the standard stat array, too, but picked up a +3 Full Plate and an amulet of natural armor +1 and a ring of deflection +1, too, bringing his AC to 24 (Touch AC 10). He holds some +3 neeming weapon and started with a strength of 14. He also picked up quicken spell. First round, the cleric goes, just for fun. He draws his weapon and casts divine power and quickened (or persistent) divine favor, giving him an attack bonus of 18/13. The orc activates his haste boots, rages, then charges and stops 10 feet within the cleric, and whips out a trip at a bonus of +22 after hitting a touch AC of 10 with his attack bonus of +19 (power-attacking for 7); since the cleric's opposed strength check is +7, I think it's safe to say that the orc will win. The cleric falls down, and the orc then swings. The orc then follows up with an attack at +23, with a damage of 2d4+34. If the cleric's next move doesn't suddenly save his butt, then he is DEAD MEAT. There's nothing he can do to get out of this jam, as the next attacks coming with FOUR +24s and a +19 will surely do him in. The only thing that the cleric can really DO is... get this... cast defensive magic (like sanctuary) and hope that he can recover enough to reciprocate. But it's not exactly a done deal here. Things get more fair for the cleric as he gains levels, but it's not like the orc hasn't been doing anything either; he's still got ten more levels to play with (like picking up frenzed berserker) and things can get even crazier. The only times things even get remotely in the favor of the cleric is when he starts busting out the defensive magic. And between stupid crap like plane shift, wall of stone, sanctuary, anti-life shell (!!!), and air walk, this can really turn the fight either way.
Lago AM3P 02-06-04, 08:36 PM	Okay. Starting stat array, DMG Standard: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Orc Barbarian 1 / Fighter 4 / Tribal Protector 2 / Weapon Master 2 Strength: 25 (29) (30 when raging) Intelligence: 13 Constitution: 13 (17) (19 when raging) Dexterity: 12 (12) Wisdom: 8 (8) Charisma: 6 (6) HP (Average): 77 (97 when raging) AC: 21 Attacks: +23 (+19/+19/+19/+19/+14) Damage: 2d6+19 Trip Check: +20 (4 feat + 10 strength + 4 size + 2 *Trip Attack) Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, *Flurry of Strikes, *Trip Attack, EWP: Spiked Chain, WF: Spiked Chain, Weapon Specialization: Spiked Chain 66,000 GP Equipment: +2 Spiked Chain (9,450 GP) Boots of Speed (12,000 GP) +3 Mithral Full-Plate (19,500 GP) Belt of Ogre Power +4 (16,000 GP) Amulet of Health +2 (4,000 GP) Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2,000 GP) Payment for a permanent enlarge: 3000 GP Well, let's see how it would play out. Just for grins, the cleric will have the standard stat array, too, but picked up a +3 Full Plate and an amulet of natural armor +1 and a ring of deflection +1, too, bringing his AC to 24 (Touch AC 10). He holds some +3 neeming weapon and started with a strength of 14. He also picked up quicken spell. First round, the cleric goes, just for fun. He draws his weapon and casts divine power and quickened (or persistent) divine favor, giving him an attack bonus of 18/13. The orc activates his haste boots, rages, then charges and stops 10 feet within the cleric, and whips out a trip at a bonus of +22 after hitting a touch AC of 10 with his attack bonus of +19 (power-attacking for 7); since the cleric's opposed strength check is +7, I think it's safe to say that the orc will win. The cleric falls down, and the orc then swings. The orc then follows up with an attack at +23, with a damage of 2d4+34. If the cleric's next move doesn't suddenly save his butt, then he is DEAD MEAT. There's nothing he can do to get out of this jam, as the next attacks coming with FOUR +24s and a +19 will surely do him in. The only thing that the cleric can really DO is... get this... cast defensive magic (like sanctuary) and hope that he can recover enough to reciprocate. But it's not exactly a done deal here. Things get more fair for the cleric as he gains levels, but it's not like the orc hasn't been doing anything either; he's still got ten more levels to play with (like picking up frenzed berserker) and things can get even crazier. The only times things even get remotely in the favor of the cleric is when he starts busting out the defensive magic. And between stupid crap like plane shift, wall of stone, sanctuary, anti-life shell (!!!), and air walk, this can really turn the fight either way.
epchristi 02-06-04, 08:55 PM	Originally posted by saetto 9th level fighter: BAB +9/+4. 9th level cleric: BAB +6/+1 9th level cleric with persistent Divine Favor: +9/+4 Total spells used: 1. One 5th level spell.. and at 9th level.. that and the domain spell are all he might have.. unless he has a really high wisdom. One dispel Magic BAB +6/+1
saetto 02-06-04, 09:16 PM	Originally posted by epchristi One 5th level spell.. and at 9th level.. that and the domain spell are all he might have.. unless he has a really high wisdom. Saying "hey, a 5th level spell slot is a significant price to pay" and saying "wow, a cleric who tries to play fighter can sorta do it for 90 minutes and then he's useless the rest of the day because he used up all his spells buffing himself" are two different things. I agree with the first. The second, however, is what you were claiming. And it is, well, untrue. Originally posted by epchristi One dispel Magic BAB +6/+1 [/b] Assuming that (a) you're fighting a spellcasting creature who (b) has dispel magic racked or available at (c) a decent caster level, (d) correctly identifies you as the obvious target for a dispel and (e) succeeds at the dispel check, while (f) not being negated by a defense as cheap and obvious as a ring of counterspells ... yes, you're back to +6/+1. That's a mighty large bunch of assumptions that will certainly be true in some situations, but is unlikely to be true in most, much less all, unless your DM is actively trying to hose you and is willing to stack the monsters to make sure you never keep up a persistent spell up for longer than the first round of an encounter. In which case he might as well just hit you in the head with a brick. I don't happen to believe that a cleric, even buffed, is just as good as a fighter in combat (at least, as long as the fighter's built with some semblence of attention to optimization). But that has a lot less to do with the cleric than it does with the fighter.
WizO_Catoblepas 02-06-04, 09:57 PM	I've just got one question: Why wouldn't the cleric just cast Hold Person on the OrC barbarian with the wisdom of 8? Like Franks says: And often as not that means having moderately good saves even more than it means doing 83 points of damage on a critical. I'm thinking that the main point is that if a cleric attacks a fighter or wizard at their strength, then they're going to die. However, they're going to last long enough (with Dispel Magic and moderately high hit points) so that they will hold out until they can attack the opposing class at their weakness. Also, a cleric is a walking undead campaign destroyer. To me, I don't remember turning undead being as strong in 1st edition as it is in 3rd edition. I'm not saying that is bad or good - just that it could be a reason for a DM to maybe not favor the class. However, at the end of the day, I really don't have a problem with the cleric. Like I said at the beginning of the thread, the cleric is rarely picked by our group, so I'm usually left to play one. The overpowered nature of the class is meant to entice players to want to play one, and to me that is a good thing.
Votan 02-06-04, 10:19 PM	Originally posted by saetto I don't happen to believe that a cleric, even buffed, is just as good as a fighter in combat (at least, as long as the fighter's built with some semblence of attention to optimization). But that has a lot less to do with the cleric than it does with the fighter. Also, a fighter is the class most often cited as underpowered on these boards. I'd be more interested in a comparison to wizard, rogue, bard or druid. Even Barbarian. I think you'd find that the cleric is hard pressed to match them without mulitple buffs. Just divine favor won't do it vs. a Barbarian. The Barbarian has rage, more HPs and other attributes besides wisdom they can optimize. Add some more buffs and okay, you are close but that is a lot to expect. A wildshaping Druid can be even mroe brutal than a cleric. A bard has all sorts of buffs built in with bardsong and it can apply to whole party. The only clerics I have trouble with are the super-optimized melee clerics (and to a lesser extent the archer cleric which just doesn't fit my view of the archetype). A cleric with war and strength can do wonders in combat. But maybe that is okay. Personally I prefer scrappy and survivable but that is just me.
epchristi 02-06-04, 10:53 PM	Originally posted by Lago AM3P Okay. Strength: 25 (29) (30 when raging) Dexterity: 12 (12) Well.. this type of argument doesn't always work well.. because PC on PC there are far too many strategies that show up. That's why the character optimization board doesn't do things that way.. they pick a standard foe. That said, I will give this a lazy attempt that anyone on the character optimization board would blow away. First.. the fighter dex is 10.. because enlarge gives -2 to dexterity.. and an additonal -1 for size. So the AC is 20 for your fighter. I also don't see how the fighter gets to 25 when the highest stat started at 15.. you almost have to pick race==race to make this a fair battle.. but nevertheless, I am just going to give a small illustration. Your scenario is probably wrong.. there is no reason the cleric can't just back away... and continue to cast more buff spells.. but let's look at a build and see how it goes. Starting stat array, DMG Standard: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Str 15 (17 size) (23 divine power) (+6) Int 8 (-1) Dex 14 (-2 enlarge) = 12 (+1) Wis 13 (15 .. +1 at 4th and +1 at 8th) (19) + 4 Cont 12 (16) (+3) Cha 10 (12) +1 Domains: War and strength Feats: 1 Weapon focus quarter staff (domain) 1 Dodge 1 Power Attack 3 Extended 6 Persistent 9 Divine Might Spells in effect for the day: Magic vestment +2 on armor Divine favor +3 luck to/hit and damage Spikes +2 enchantment bonus + 9 additional damage 66,000 GP Darkwood quarterstaff +1 w/ice and shock (18,000gp) Full plate (1650gp) Boots of Speed (12,000 GP) Amulet of Health +2 (4,000 GP) Payment for a permanent enlarge: (3000gp) Periapt of wisdom +4 (16,000gp) Cloak of Charisma +2 (4,000gp) Amulet of Natural Armor +2 (8000gp) AC = 10 + 8fp + 2 magic vest + 1dex - 1size +2na +1 dodge= 23 HP = 71 on average (44 avg roll + 27 const) HP = 80 (divine power) First round. Cleric hastes himself as free action, moves back 40 feet, casts divine power. BAB +6/+1 Divine Power +9/+4 Divine Favor +12/+7 Strength +18/+13 Size +17/+12 Spikes +19/+14 Weapon Focus +20/+15 We had to assume by your post, they started 40-60 feet from each other.. because the fighter can move 50ft per movement action while hasted. So, we will keep that assumption. If the fighter doesn't close, the cleric can continue to use spells.. shield of faith, righteous might, flame of faith... so we will assume he closes. The cleric is 80 feet away, so the fighter makes a double move.. end of turn. Damage for first hit: 1d8 - enlarged staff 1d6 - ice 1d6 - shock +3 base strength + 8 for strength domain bonus for one hit +5 for the additonal str from wielding staff two handed (1.5 str) +3 divine favor +2 enchantment for weapon +9 spikes spell +8 for power attack (-4 to hit will be added in) +1 for divine might = 1d8+2d6+40 or 50.5 on average. Damage for other hits 1d8+2d6 + 9(1.5str)+3+2+9+8+1= 1d8+2d6+31 or 43.5 So.. +20/+20/+15 at -4 for each attack is +16/+16/+11 16/20*50.5 + 16/20*43.5 + 11/20*43.5 = 41+35+24 or 100. If the first attack hits.. the fighter must save or die. And likely there could be enough damage to kill the fighter outright. The fighter better kill the cleric in the next round.. or he dies, if he doesn't die from damage in the first attack. This just shows.. that during a window of time.. clerics can be very powerful.. with the right spells.. and in fact keep pace with the fighter. But this cleric build doesn't make a good cleric and wastes most of his spells on fighting in melee. So.. it really just shows that clerics are balanced, because to become a melee jugernaut, they need to spend their spells to be a fighter. They also miss out on fighter feats this way. but I wanted a bit more fair representation of what a cleric can do.. and I by no means did a great job. The character optimization board has far better cleric builds that can do 900 damage in a round.
epchristi 02-06-04, 10:56 PM	Originally posted by saetto Saying "hey, a 5th level spell slot is a significant price to pay" and saying "wow, a cleric who tries to play fighter can sorta do it for 90 minutes and then he's useless the rest of the day because he used up all his spells buffing himself" are two different things. I agree with the first. The second, however, is what you were claiming. And it is, well, untrue. I should have stopped with the first argument.. it made the point. But.. the second can also be true.. all the party has to do is encounter another cleric or shaman in the npc party or monster party. Orcs, for instance, can have clerics or wizards too. So.. it's not that far of a stretch. And don't get me wrong. I am just arguing that clerics are balanced.. I think we are saying the same thing. The persistent spell feats.. even with them.. a fighter can keep pace.. and then the cleric is wasting his spells being a fighter.. he might have just as well been a fighter. :)
epchristi 02-06-04, 11:02 PM	Originally posted by epchristi AC = 10 + 8fp + 2 magic vest + 1dex - 1size +2na = 22 = 1d8+2d6+40 or 51.5 on average. 1d8+2d6 + 9(1.5str)+3+2+9+8= 1d8+2d6+31 or 42.5 Hate to follow my own post.. sorry.. AC = 23 .. I forgot dodge damage.. 50.5 on first hit, 43.5 on next two.. forgot divine might and had the strength domain bonus off by one. (didn't help much anway) I also forgot weapon focus.. giving one additional bonus to hit. (Updated the previous post) But instead of 92.. it's 100.. but there was rounding in there anyway. I am sure I still made some mistakes.. and because I don't have all the books.. I missed out on some funky items.. and could have made a charging cleric.. but.. oh well.. this I believe shows a point.
epchristi 02-07-04, 09:38 AM	Originally posted by Votan Also, a fighter is the class most often cited as underpowered on these boards. I'd be more interested in a comparison to wizard, rogue, bard or druid. Even Barbarian. I think you'd find that the cleric is hard pressed to match them without mulitple buffs. I definitely agree here! But, I think what most people would cite is that it's very easy to have the cleric multiple buff before the battle even happens. Many of the spells have durations of 1 hour/level.. and at 10th level.. that's most of the day.. if you cast it extended. (+1 slot only) It's going to be hard in the 4.0 edition to fix it. If you make magic vestments only last 10 min/level.. it's a useless spell. :) Spikes duration should be nerfed.. adding +1/lvl damge up to 10 is a huge bonus which stacks with other things. It would fit in with a 1min/level duration. But even with all the buffs, the cleric is no better than the fighter.. they do about the same amount of damage. They do have spells, but they don't have feats. Improved Trip is a great feat, as well as things like spring attack and the like. Fighters can have multiple of those combat-style feats. One-on-one cleave is of no benefit.. but in a battle of many, cleave is a great feat. The clerics limited feat selection really don't allow them to take that, without sacrificing other aspects of their main clerical ability.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-07-04, 01:04 PM	I don't see the Cleric as overpowered at all. They don't get any other special abilities besides whats standard. They are proficient with armor and simple weapons. These things are not overpowering. They don't have as much destruction magic as the arcane classes, yeah they have their share, but not near as much. They don't gain any extra feats, so most people don't use those feats to take spell focus and greater spell focus. It's hard to find a ton of items to up your Wisdom score to make your spells harder to resist. The cleric is balanced in my opinion.
Kaya Kenobi 02-08-04, 01:56 AM	Originally posted by WizO_Catoblepas However, at the end of the day, I really don't have a problem with the cleric. Like I said at the beginning of the thread, the cleric is rarely picked by our group, so I'm usually left to play one. The overpowered nature of the class is meant to entice players to want to play one, and to me that is a good thing. I usually end up playing an NPC cleric because my players don't play spellcasters very often. The thing with them is that if you can DM a good system of ethics and ethos, then they would be far from overpowered. The deity says, "no, you can't have those spells because I want you to have these instead." Or "I'm not giving you any spells because you didn't spread my gospel." Clerics aren't overpowered.
Darth K'Trava 02-08-04, 07:30 PM	Clerics can hold their own without having to buff. Not all people have to buff clerics to make them as tough as fighters. Granted, none of us in the games I'm in do that (me included). I, for one cleric, took lots of fighting-related feats to make her more powerful than the average cleric but the fighter still dealt out lots more damage with more chances to hit. (his 4 attacks vs. my 3) Sure I could use buff spells...... but I choose not to. At her level, I stick with "the Big Kaboom" spells and also her fighting prowess (such that it is.... ;) ) that can come in handy and save the party's collective butts. Not to mention the healing capability.... sure that'll keep ya out of some fights (been there, done that) but it keeps the group alive which is more important than seeing how many bad guys you can beat the crap out of. Then there's that whole deity's dogma thing going on...... some gods don't expect their clerics to be up there in the frontline, fighting....... whereas others do expect it.
Twisted Puppy 02-08-04, 08:26 PM	gleep, if you're on this thread, please stop reading here!! You'll find all this out in good time! I just finished putting together a Dragonkin 17th level cleric to go up against the party IMC. After getting his spell list together, I'm hoping I don't have a TPK on my hands. Haven't even given him any magic items yet. (Party has 3 x 19th, 3 x 16th, 1 x 15th level characters.) I'm shuddering at the thought of what his Violated Mass Inflict Critical Wounds will do to the PCs... Will save DC for half damage is around 26 for that.. Evil clerics really ARE evil when you give them feats and spells out of the BoVD :devil: