Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mirror, Mirror 05-13-04, 05:13 PM	Thesis: Divine casters (Cleric/Druid) should compare equally in power to arcane casters (Wizard/Sorcerer) *Note: Lets not compare the wizard to the sorcerer please* Analysis: Divine casters compare to wizards in the following ways Spell list Casting BAB Saves Key stat Class extras The question of the cleric/druid spell list being more or less powerful than the wizard spell list is debatable. Divine casters get all spells known. Wizards/sorcerers must gather or select spells, and wizards do so at a cost in gp. Advantage=Wizard? Combat spells=Wizard Buff spells=cleric Utility spells=wizard Wizards are pure prep casters. Sorcerers are pure spont. casters. Clerics and druids are mostly prep, part spont. Clerics get wizard spells through domains. Advantage=divine caster? Cleric/druid BAB is better. Advantage=divine caster Cleris/druid saves are better. Advantage=divine caster Int gets more skill points. Cha influences leadership. Wis influences saves. Assumption: Saves are more important than skill points. Clerics, however benefit more from good stats than wizards or sorcerers. Clerics only dump stat is dex, which influences their worst save. Druids can make do with few stats. Advantage=divine caster? Familiar is common. Druids get animal companion. Wizards get bonus feats. Clerics get turning ability. Divine casters get armored casting and better starting proficiencies. Wizards get scribe scroll. Advantage=divine caster What have I missed? Do you agree? Please state which assumptions you believe are false, and refute them. I am perfectly willing to say that clerics are just fine the way they are, but my analysis needs evidence to support that. *Edit: Stat's other than the primary casting stat. Splitting spell list into catagories. Additions to class benefits and spell benefits.*
Beamup 05-13-04, 05:22 PM	Originally posted by Mirror, Mirror The question of the cleric/druid spell list being more or less powerful than the wizard spell list is debatable. Advantage=? This is unfortunately the most important factor of all. It certainly swamps such questions as skill points. Unfortunately, I don't have a clear answer to it any more than you do.
Mirror, Mirror 05-13-04, 05:23 PM	Originally posted by Beamup This is unfortunately the most important factor of all. It certainly swamps such questions as skill points. Unfortunately, I don't have a clear answer to it any more than you do. Agree. I find the addition of domains to be an unbalancing factor in favor of the cleric, but some others disagree. I hope they come forth and present why this is so...
Tony Vargas 05-13-04, 05:26 PM	Originally posted by Mirror, Mirror Int gets more skill points. Cha influences leadership. Wis influences saves. Assumption: Saves are more important than skill points. Advantage=divine caster I don't want to take a position on the premise, here, but, I do want to point something out. Archanists need a high caster stat, and, they need some CON or DEX if they can get it, to boost thier survivablity a little. They can safely 'Dump' WIS, STR, and eachother's caster stats (though, not dump it too hard). Clerics need a high caster stat (WIS), a good CHA (turning), some CON (because, really everyone needs CON), some STR (since they can wear armor and have some non-trivial melee potential), and should at least avoid dumping INT, because getting by with 1 skill point would be tough, and can get by with a DEX no higher than 12 (thanks to heavy armor).
Beamup 05-13-04, 05:30 PM	Originally posted by Mirror, Mirror Agree. I find the addition of domains to be an unbalancing factor in favor of the cleric, but some others disagree. I hope they come forth and present why this is so... Well, domains are certainly an advantage to the cleric (more spells + special powers + no drawbacks = clear advantage). That doesn't necessarily make them unbalancing.
markhaus 05-13-04, 05:31 PM	Yep divine casters are a little overpowered... a party of completely divine casters would rock. But since i have never seem that happen I assume they arent overpowered enough to warrant change My last party badly needed a divine caster but nobody wanted to play one. Doesnt have anything to do with the argument, just thought i would mention.
Mirror, Mirror 05-13-04, 05:33 PM	Originally posted by Tony Vargas I don't want to take a position on the premise, here, but, I do want to point something out. Archanists need a high caster stat, and, they need some CON or DEX if they can get it, to boost thier survivablity a little. They can safely 'Dump' WIS, STR, and eachother's caster stats (though, not dump it too hard). Clerics need a high caster stat (WIS), a good CHA (turning), some CON (because, really everyone needs CON), some STR (since they can wear armor and have some non-trivial melee potential), and should at least avoid dumping INT, because getting by with 1 skill point would be tough, and can get by with a DEX no higher than 12 (thanks to heavy armor). And I WAS only considering the primary stat. So, clerics need more stats than wizards do, perhaps negating the bonus of saves over skills/feat abilities?
Lina_Inverse 05-13-04, 05:33 PM	Originally posted by Mirror, Mirror Thesis: Divine casters (Cleric/Druid) should compare equally in power to arcane casters (Wizard/Sorcerer) *Note: Lets not compare the wizard to the sorcerer please* Analysis: Divine casters compare to wizards in the following ways Spell list Casting BAB Saves Key stat Class extras The question of the cleric/druid spell list being more or less powerful than the wizard spell list is debatable. Advantage=? Wizards are pure prep casters. Sorcerers are pure spont. casters. Clerics and druids are mostly prep, part spont. Clerics get wizard spells through domains. Advantage=divine caster? Cleric/druid BAB is better. Advantage=divine caster Cleris/druid saves are better. Advantage=divine caster Int gets more skill points. Cha influences leadership. Wis influences saves. Assumption: Saves are more important than skill points. Advantage=divine caster Familiar is common. Druids get animal companion. Wizards get bonus feats. Clerics get turning ability. Advantage=? What have I missed? Do you agree? Please state which assumptions you believe are false, and refute them. I am perfectly willing to say that clerics are just fine the way they are, but my analysis needs evidence to support that. list=about equal,alot of time with clerics has shown this.advantege=wizard for the tool box preping advantege=cleric/druid obvisly,id say cleric over druid for what they spont.dont need to prep heals mmmm stat=druids by far,they dont even HAVE physical stats. extras=advantege druidx10 wild shape is nutso and animal companion is very usefull.
Lina_Inverse 05-13-04, 05:36 PM	Originally posted by Mirror, Mirror And I WAS only considering the primary stat. So, clerics need more stats than wizards do, perhaps negating the bonus of saves over skills/feat abilities? they dont need more stats,just more stats are usefull.big diffrence,a cleric and wizard with point buy should have(effectivly) the same stats as turning is pure crasp. oh redo my orginal on stats,advantege druid.druid has only 3 stats not 6.
Shoes 05-13-04, 05:36 PM	Personally, I don't think Clerics (or divine casters in general) are overpowered, but I do agree they are one of the more powerful classes out there in the Player's Handbook. I've proved it when I played a Elven Cleric of Corellon Larethian based around archery (Elf and War domains). At 9th level I had over a 40 AC for a short time and four attacks (3 being over +20), but on the downfall I had almost no Turning Undead ability and almost no spells left for healing. So as I said, it's not so much that they're "overpowered" but are one of the more powerful classes and a need be asset to the group.
Teh Lurv 05-13-04, 05:39 PM	Originally posted by Mirror, Mirror What have I missed? Do you agree? Please state which assumptions you believe are false, and refute them. You forgot to include that Divine Casters have better starting weapon and armor profiencies than arcane casters. In addition, they can cast while in armor. A Cleric or Druid who, for some reason, loses his divine powers still has his good hp, bab, and weapons to fall back upon unlike the Wizard who turns into an X lvl commoner. I don't think there the Cleric is anymore overpowered than the Arcane Casters. Arcane Casters receive hands down the better destruction spells. The only concern I have with the Cleric is that his armor and weapon profs. combined with buffing spells can step on the toes of the party Fighter. The Fighter or Barbarian of the group is suposed to be the top tier melee combatant, but a minimally prepared Cleric can fill their slot in combat. IMHO, Clerics proficiencies should be altered to simple weapon prof., light and medium armor prof, and light shield and buckler prof. This allows the Cleric to get into combat when needed without being able to replace a true melee class.
Tony Vargas 05-13-04, 05:42 PM	Originally posted by Mirror, Mirror And I WAS only considering the primary stat. So, clerics need more stats than wizards do, perhaps negating the bonus of saves over skills/feat abilities? Maybe. ::shrug:: Also, the saves the cleric's (or druid's) caster stat adds to is also a Good save - you could see that as wonderful (WILL-saves are no problem), or kind of a waste. Conversely, the most nearly dumpable stat for them - DEX, adds to thier one Poor save. I think, in general, clerics, and, to a lesser extent, druids, need more high or good stats than some other classes - like archanists and fighters. That means they'll be even more potent in high-attribute games, but face harder choices at chargen in lower-attribute games.
MoogleEmpMog 05-13-04, 05:44 PM	Spell list = advantage: Cleric (strong), Druid (slight); cleric domains and high-level spells make them better, druids get many powerful spells at a lower level, but wizards do get stronger spells prior to the highest levels, and some very good ones even then. However, the cleric and druid spell knowledge is a huge, oft overlooked boost. Stats = advantage: Druid (massive), Cleric (very slight); skills, well used, can be more important than Wisdom to a high Will save class, but in general Wisdom is better. Turning is nigh useless, so Charisma can be dumped if you want, a cleric doesn't NEED Dex or Str, although he benefits from having them. Class extras = advantage: Druid (massive), Wizard (strong); wildshape is the best class features in the core rules and animal companion is right behind rage, divine grace and evasion. Wizards' feats are more useful than all but a handful of domain powers, however. Sorcerers, of course, get shafted. Overall, clerics would *probably* be fine if a) they cast using Charisma, a weaker stat, b) turn undead were dumped, as it's lame anyway and could be mimicked by a spell and c) they didn't know *all* their spells. Another option would be to make clerical spellcasting always a full-round action, as the cleric beseeches his god for power. Druids are broken beyond belief, though. I don't know where to start fixing them without dismantling the class. Giving them a bard-like spell after 5th level might be a good place to start (max out at 7th-level spells?)
antibelpas 05-13-04, 05:44 PM	Cleric is better BAB Cleric is better Saves Cleric is better HD Cleric is better ARMOR/WEAPONS Clerics can turn. Wizard has bonuse feats Wizard gets familiar. Wizard gets scribe scroll. Cleric and Wizard get similar skills (though wizard wins because of INT) Wizard spell list is much better than the Cleric spell list A cleric has a couple good spells, but nothing compare to the wizard. AND what people forget is a cleric has alignment restrictions/penalities.... since D&D is an RPG clerics must be RPed properly.....this can in some cases make the cleric the weakest class. overall the cleric is good, but not overpowered. It all balances out. sorry, all arguments against a cleric are specific spells or domains. Fix don't ruin the class.
MoogleEmpMog 05-13-04, 06:00 PM	Actually, what people forget is that the cleric's player decides WHAT alignment he wants to be restricted to, and, if he picks a True Neutral god (Boccob, perhaps?), he can be one of up to five alignments, which offers a great deal of leeway. I'm ignoring the possibility of a 'godless cleric' because, IMO, it's just silly. I'm also ignoring that WotC has repeatedly said that roleplaying restrictions should never be used to balance a class mechanically, because I'm not sure I agree. I'm just saying that, using the core PHB gods, no player who doesn't want the challenges of playing a cleric 'on the edge' will EVER have to deal with said challenges. As for the spell list, it's less a question of whether the spells available to a cleric or druid are weaker than those available to a wizard (although that is by no means easy to say); it's a matter of whether those spells are sufficiently weaker that they make up for the cleric being able to memorize ANY of them from the level he first has access to their spell level, and whether they're sufficiently weaker that they make up for all the other advantages the cleric or druid has.
Thermanshs 05-13-04, 06:12 PM	here's my assumptions...please don't comment...we're trying to make a gallop poll here.Also I'm not mentioning the most obvious of all such as HP,saves or armor proficiencies... wizard vs cleric: spellcasting:wizard's much better skills:wizard gets a lot more ability score dependent:cleric more survivability:equal easier to run:cleric a hell more miscellaneous:wizard more wizard vs druid spellcasting:wizard's far better skills:wizard gets more ability score dependent:wizard slightly more survivability:wizard some more easier to run:druid more miscellaneous:equal sorcerer vs cleric: spellcasting:sorcerer's much better skills:sorcerer gets a little bit more ability score dependent:cleric more survivability:equal easier to run:cleric more miscellaneous:sorcerer some more sorcerer vs druid spellcasting:sorcerer's much better skills:druid more ability score dependent:equal survivability:sorcerer some more easier to run:druid some more miscellaneous:druid some more
eRaz0r 05-13-04, 06:26 PM	Lets also consider that the Wizard spell access is limited by cash, time and opportunity, and the Sorcerers have a strictly limited number of spells known, whereas the Cleric (and Druid) gets instant access to every spell they can cast. That, in itself is a powerful ability. I guess to really make this comparison we should look at the following : The total number of spells at each level. The type of spells available at each level. The utility of spells at each level. Now the Cleric generally has fewer spells to choose from at each level than the Arcane caster. However, no Arcane spellcaster could afford all the spells in the PHB to add to his spellbook. A Cleric gets every one of those spells instantly. Furthermore, any SplatBook that the DM approves which contains Cleric spells gives an instant boost in versatility to the Cleric over the Wizard... The Cleric (Druid) is the only character with Healing spells (ok, the Bard has some, but lets not talk about him right now). That's a whole category of spell unavailable to the Wizard. He is also the only one to raise the dead or regenerate injury. The Wizard gets bigger damage spells earlier (Fireball etc), he also gets a lot of good Charms, all the standard stat buffs (Bulls Str, Eagles Spl etc), and some good crowd control spells (Web, Sleet Storm, Slow). He also gets a lot of travel spells (Fly, Teleport), utility spells like Knock, Shrink Item, divination spells like Arcane Eye, Prying Eyes; and "resting" spells like Magnificent Mansion, Rope Trick etc. The Cleric gets access to a lot of spells regarding food (Create Food and Water, Purify, Heroes Feast) which the Wizard doesn't. The Clerics bigger damage spells, when he gets them, are very nice (Flamestrike does 1/2 Divine damage!) Slay Living, Harm, Holy Word, Destruction, Firestorm, Earthquake, Symbols, Implosion, Storm of Vengeance, etc. All very powerful. The Cleric also is a master of Summoning - since the Planar Ally track is a group of spells only he can cast. Then, if there is a particular thing that the Wizard gets that a Cleric might find useful, the odds are good that you might find that ability in one of the Domain spells. It's this addition of Domains which, to me, tips the balance in the Clerics favour. Because now any old spell effect is fair game for the cleric. You like Time Stop ? Take the Time Domain, and you can have it. Chain Lightning your cup of tea ? Air domain has that. Shapechange appeals to you ? Animal Domain... Iron body? Incendiary Cloud? Legend Lore ? All of these spells are formerly non-cleric spells which are now available to those Clerics with the right domains. Admittedly you can only have two domains as a straight Cleric, but that just isn't that big of a deal if you choose wisely.
Beamup 05-13-04, 06:29 PM	Originally posted by eRaz0r Lets also consider that the Wizard spell access is limited by cash, time and opportunity, and the Sorcerers have a strictly limited number of spells known, whereas the Cleric (and Druid) gets instant access to every spell they can cast. Well, the Wizard's spell access isn't terribly limited by cash at moderate to high levels - especially once he invests in a blessed book. 450 for a 9th level spell is peanuts once you can cast it. Early on, it's very important because each spell costs 150*level. Later, it only costs 50*level. A linear increase that can be reduced by 2/3 by a basic magical item just doesn't stay relevant long. Access and time are more important, and keep the Wizard's selection somewhat limited compared to the Cleric or Druid, but not that much. The rest of your points I agree with.
Mirror, Mirror 05-13-04, 06:33 PM	Well, there is also the cost of obtaining the spell. If purchased on a scroll, add in the purchase price. If otherwise obtained, factor in a a part of the party treasure (the enemy spellbook, unused scrolls).
Thermanshs 05-13-04, 06:36 PM	The Cleric also is a master of Summoning - since the Planar Ally track is a group of spells only he can cast. You're wrong here...the wizard has an equal version of this spell only that it's called planar binding and there's no restriction for the type of outsider to be summoned... I beleive a wizard is some better a summoner since he can also conjure shadows,swarms,Bigby's hands etc.
Beamup 05-13-04, 06:37 PM	Originally posted by Mirror, Mirror Well, there is also the cost of obtaining the spell. If purchased on a scroll, add in the purchase price. If otherwise obtained, factor in a a part of the party treasure (the enemy spellbook, unused scrolls). That is the cost of obtaining the spell. Buying access to another wizard's spellbook is only 50 gp per spell level. See PHB page 179. Since the odds a wizard would be scribing scrolls for people to buy yet not be willing to let people buy the spell from his book (if he doesn't want people to know it, he won't sell the scrolls) are very slim, buying scrolls to learn spells just isn't a good idea (except for level 1 spells, where it's actually cheaper).
ManTimeForgot 05-13-04, 07:05 PM	Cost of having to use a spellbook? Several thousand gp. Cost of getting all your spells at level up? - thousands of gp (as in nets you money over the wizard). Cost of not having an angry outsider of roughly your HD after you by using planar ally? 100xp. Cost of having an angry outsider of roughly your hd after you? Whatever the cost of ressurection is because you are gonna die. Cost of preparing spells? Lesser versatility. Cost of not having to prepare cure spells? Added versatility. So tell me which spells EXACTLY the wizard has that absolutely blow away the cleric. Really. In order to make up for all the PURE mechanical advantages that the cleric has the wizard spell list would have to have at least 50 spells of varying levels that are simply superior to (or not possible to do) what a cleric can do. Not only that but the wizard must also be able to do everything the cleric can or there is no chance of winning this argument. Necessity of healing for a party? I'd say it probably ranks up there among the most important things a party requires. Necessity of illusion or charm/dominate spells? Sorry but somehow I don't buy that they are necessary for a party to function. So what else does the wizard have other than illusion spells and charm/dominate spells that the cleric doesn't. And DON'T pretend for a moment that the wizard is the best army killer. Meteor swarm is NO WHERE NEAR what firestorm can do. Meteor swarm could potentially damage 64 men (assuming your don't count the third dimension) for 24d6. Firestorm could potentially damage 160 (if you don't count the extra third dimension) men for 20d6. Math favors firestorm in terms of mass destruction. And in terms of pure damage dealing in one roundL druid with acorn bombs, in an air ship, carpet bomb whatever it is you want to die. A cleric in an anti-magic field is a walking tin can; a wizard in an anti-magic field is a walking dead man. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Darth K'Trava 05-13-04, 09:29 PM	A cleric in an anti-magic field is a walking tin can; a wizard in an anti-magic field is a walking dead man. :rofl: My 11th level, now epic cleric, did just fine in an anti-magic field (cast by herself) to fight as, at that point, she didn't have anything magical on her. And clerics with the Strength domain can cast the various Bigby's spells. Wizards get their basic level-up spells at no cost to them. Anything extra costs the GP in materials, etc. We had a whole big misunderstanding about this awhile back with the party wizard. [quote]Cost of having to use a spellbook? Several thousand gp. Cost of getting all your spells at level up? - thousands of gp (as in nets you money over the wizard). Cost of not having an angry outsider of roughly your HD after you by using planar ally? 100xp. Cost of having an angry outsider of roughly your hd after you? Whatever the cost of ressurection is because you are gonna die. Cost of preparing spells? Lesser versatility. Cost of not having to prepare cure spells? Added versatility.[\quote] :rofl: The cost of being able to wear full plate: 1600GP The cost of having to follow your god's edicts: extroadinary The cost of having the gratitude of your friends when you either heal them or raise them: Priceless
beaver1024 05-14-04, 02:54 AM	There is no justification at all for saying that wizard spells are better than cleric spells. They are at least equal but domains gives clerics the edge.
Kem 05-14-04, 03:09 AM	Originally posted by beaver1024 There is no justification at all for saying that wizard spells are better than cleric spells. They are at least equal but domains gives clerics the edge. Magic Missile Alone Beats all Clerical Damage spells until at least 5th level (IIRC). Sorching Ray vs. Seaing Light? Flamestrike is nice, but fireball is 2 levels lower. Imposion is nice, but needs concentration. Harm. Touch range, negative energy doesn't beat death ward and this is the best (basically) clerical offensive spell. There are very few cleric spells that can stand up to Wizard Spells in direct combat. Add in free metamagic feats for the wizard and those spells they have are more versatile. Defensive Wise, Wizards have Prismatic Sphere. Blink, Wall of Force, and other toys in the school of abjuration. Clerics... Not so much. Buff wise the cleric wins pretty much, but only really for self buffs. Enlarge Person, Haste, Invisibility are all really good spells. Now granted the Domains make up for most of this, but thats a limited selection, and limited number of times per day. And a wizard with wish can grant inherent bonuses to any stat. Clerics get to ask their Diety if they can have that Inherent bonus :)
Kem 05-14-04, 03:11 AM	Minor thing... Originally posted by antibelpas Cleric is better ARMOR/WEAPONS Just say they can use em :) Wizards have a VERY hard time using either of these past level 4-6 :) And better then a dagger and quarterstaff isn't exactly saying much :)
Talamasca 05-14-04, 03:25 AM	Let's put it simple: The ONLY thing a wizard(sorcerer) can do is cast spells. Thus, he should reasonably be the undisputed king of spellcasting. He isn't. Ooops, I see a problem here...
beaver1024 05-14-04, 04:46 AM	Originally posted by Kem Magic Missile Alone Beats all Clerical Damage spells until at least 5th level (IIRC). Sorching Ray vs. Seaing Light? At low levels clerics have other combat spells which are just as potent as wiz/sorc's damage spell selection. In fact given that damage spells are so weak at low levels, cleric damage enhancement spells are probably better. Divine Favour anyone? Searing Light cannot be resisted and does extra damage to undead which Scorching Ray doesn't. Clerics get Poison, arguably the earliest save or die spell and incredibly deadly even to fighter types. Clerics get Hold Person 1 level earlier than wiz/sorcs. With domains, clerics get Burning Hands and Produce Flame which arguably is as good as Magic Missile. Clerics also get Spiritual Weapon which when combined with the cleric's medium BAB is nearly as good as Mordenkainen's Sword (7th level sor/wiz). Not to mention the druid's repetoire which includes Call Lightning which is as good as Fireball and Lightning Bolt. Low level offensive clerical/druid power is just as potent as sorc/wiz. Flamestrike is nice, but fireball is 2 levels lower. Imposion is nice, but needs concentration. Harm. Touch range, negative energy doesn't beat death ward and this is the best (basically) clerical offensive spell. There are very few cleric spells that can stand up to Wizard Spells in direct combat. Add in free metamagic feats for the wizard and those spells they have are more versatile. I think you're not looking hard enough. Harm is hardly the best clerical offensive spell. The Holy Word series of spell is absolutely broken as it is a no save instant area effect death spell. Compare Finger of Death vs Destruction and tell me that clerical offensive spells are weaker than arcane offensive spells. Metamagic feats are arguably the worst kinds of feats to choose as wizards because they have to be prepared in advance which negates any kind of versitility they give the wizard whilst taking up valuable feat slots. Defensive Wise, Wizards have Prismatic Sphere. Blink, Wall of Force, and other toys in the school of abjuration. Clerics... Not so much. Buff wise the cleric wins pretty much, but only really for self buffs. Last time I looked, clerics have Spell Resistance, Spell Immunity, Death Ward and Freedom of Move just to name of a few of the best defensive spells any caster can get. Now granted the Domains make up for most of this, but thats a limited selection, and limited number of times per day. And a wizard with wish can grant inherent bonuses to any stat. Clerics get to ask their Diety if they can have that Inherent bonus :) Domain restrictions are easily circumvented by having just 1 item creation feat. Clerics can make books using Miracle that gives you inherent bonus. In addition Miracle can get you any arcane spell up to 7th level. If that by itself doesn't make cleric spells list equal to sorc/wiz spells I don't know what does.
Thermanshs 05-14-04, 07:18 AM	Originally posted by ManTimeForgot and Beaver So tell me which spells EXACTLY the wizard has that absolutely blow away the cleric. Really. In order to make up for all the PURE mechanical advantages that the cleric has the wizard spell list would have to have at least 50 spells of varying levels that are simply superior to (or not possible to do) what a cleric can do. Not only that but the wizard must also be able to do everything the cleric can or there is no chance of winning this argument. Are you telling that a cleric's spell list is equal to or even superior to that of a sor/wiz???!?!?!?1 :rofl: A cleric in an anti-magic field is a walking tin can; a wizard in an anti-magic field is a walking dead man. I'd DIE to see the moron playing this wizard who wouldn't teleport/dimension door away but rather stay and fight there.
Shadow DM 05-14-04, 07:21 AM	Well let me start by saying I am happy to finally get off my butt and sign up to speak on these forums. I have been DMing for a little over 14 years and I have seen clerics get a big boost from the old days of Second Edition. Now, from what I have read in the third edition books (3.5), I don't think that Clerics are overpowered and I will tell you why. My simple answer is that most of the really powerful spells that clerics have can only target evil foes. And while this does make the cleric a specialist in taking out the darker forces of the world, it does not make him the master of casting in any type of environment. In addition, the cleric is bound to a set deity, god, or belief that he has to hold firm to or lose his powers. Any while many DMs are lenient, I believe strongly that if a god or mindset has choosen you to be its avatar, it is going to expect you to stand firm for its teachings and practices. If you are a cleric and not careful, it is easy to lose your powers. Clerics can cast in armor, and they can fight in melee combat. This does give them an advantage over their robe wearing counterparts. However in spell to spell combat, physical armor does not mean much since most of the spells attacks are touch. So if a wizard and a cleric duke it out, the fact that the cleric is in armor will not give him much of an advantage. And the fact that he can weild better weapons will not matter much either unless the high level wizard decides it is time to prove his mettle with his trusty pocket knife... Now being in armor and using weapons does give the cleric his/her advantages in other arenas. However I don't know if these advantages make the cleric a "broken" character class. It is the cleric's own little form of versitility. Now, I just spent some time comparing spells from the cleric and arcane spell sections of the phb (I am not even looking at the book of exhaulted deeds because I already think some of the things in there are broken) and this is what I noticed. The cleric is mostly a buff/heal person at lower levels. His spells also extend into a lot of protection areas (lower means first and second) while the wizard has a more versatile spell selection giving him access to more attack spells and a couple of spells that do neat things. (though death knell is a pretty nasty one for those...more evil clerics) As the levels go up the cleric gets more and more crazy in terms of the pain he can dish out. However most of the more damaging spells are targeted at evil and the undead. The good cleric specializes at taking out the baddies and of coarse will be the most usefull when the party decides the lich sacraficing villagers to his demon buddy needs a good talking to. However if the same party decides that they need to help put down a local peasent revolt or deal with two waring good churches, then the wizard will probably be a bit more helpful. Now, what I do this is silly is the "make your own god" scenario where people min/max their domain powers by picking strange and unusual domains that their made-up god grants them. I think there should be a more strict rule on what domains can go with what other domains and how they have to be played out. And I think worshipping cheeze should definatly be out of the question. The whole ideal thing is kinda iffy to me. The cleric is supposed to be the...servant of a greater power. And that greater power should be demanding on his servants. Well, it is late and I should go to bed. In closing I dont think the cleric is "broken." He is good in certain situations, but not to the point where he is a broken character. I would suggest they make concrete deities that must be worshiped or have more strict rules for creating your own god. I think that would be a good enough change. I thought it was funny how broken the bard was in 3.0 He is still a crazy powerful character...if played correctly. While not the master of the battle he can certainly stir up a rucus in town easy enough and can usually make friends and gather information like it was nobody's business. Again, it is all about situation, and I see nothing about the cleric that makes him superpowered when compared to the wizard or sorcerer. And never say that metamagic feats are wasted on the wizard. They are definatly better for the sorc...sort of...but the wizard who is clever can use certain ones like extend spell or even maximize spell to his advantage. Well, it is 4am...goodnight...
Shadow DM 05-14-04, 07:41 AM	Eh, clerics are not only specialists at taking down evil. But I will argue that they still are not the best casters in every situation. Arcane spells are more versatile than divine spells overall and the higher level damage spells of the wizard are just as powerfull if not more so than the high level damage spells of a cleric. Again it is all about the cleric being a follower that limits his power and what he can do. Come on guys invis...timestop...meteor swarm...power word kill...nuff said.
antibelpas 05-14-04, 12:29 PM	Originally posted by beaver1024 At low levels clerics have other combat spells which are just as potent as wiz/sorc's damage spell selection. I Divine Favour anyone? Searing Light cannot be resisted and does extra damage to undead which Scorching Ray doesn't. Clerics get Poison, arguably the earliest save or die spell and incredibly deadly even to fighter types. Clerics get Hold Person 1 level earlier than wiz/sorcs. With domains, clerics get Burning Hands and Produce Flame which arguably is as good as Magic Missile. Clerics also get Spiritual Weapon which when combined with the cleric's medium BAB is nearly as good as Mordenkainen's Sword (7th level sor/wiz). Not to mention the druid's repetoire which includes Call Lightning which is as good as Fireball and Lightning Bolt. Last time I looked, clerics have Spell Resistance, Spell Immunity, Death Ward and Freedom of Move just to name of a few of the best defensive spells any caster can get. If that by itself doesn't make cleric spells list equal to sorc/wiz spells I don't know what does. [/B] This whole quote is a big HUH?!!!! the cleric spells you cite dont' even COMPARE to the wizard ones! Searling Light vs. Scorching ray SL is 3rd, while SR is 2nd. SL does 1d8/2 levels max 5d8. SR 4d6 per ray, one ray per 3 levels! SR wins...NO CONTEST! A once a day domain spell of burning hands or produce flame as good as magic missle! HELLO! What rules are you reading? magic missle is an automatic hit force effect! with a huge range! WAAAY better than the other spells. Burning hands is 5d4 max at 10ft. Produce flame requires a ranged touch attack. Call Lightning as good as Fireball or Lightning bolt? Now you're just making us all laugh. Call Lighnting is 3d6 or 3d10 if its raining. It only effects one target. Fireball is a max of 10d6 for a 20ft radius! Lightning bolt is 10d6 in a line! Yes you can repeatedly use call lightning but it takes up your turn for that round! So shall we talk defensive spells? Spell Turning? Prismatic Sphere? Wall of Force? Stone Skin? hmm nope those all suck. :rolleyes: the only think I'd like to see changed is having spell resistance on the wizard list. so you see, the wizard list is easily better.
Kem 05-14-04, 01:35 PM	Originally posted by beaver1024 Divine Favour anyone? Self Only. Clerics have alot of those. They are 3x better if they can be used on others. Searing Light cannot be resisted and does extra damage to undead which Scorching Ray doesn't. Sorching Ray does double the damage, so go ahead resist half or do more against undead. At 10th level its 8d6 damage vs. 5d6. And Sorching ray goes up to 12d6 next level and is a level lower. Clerics get Poison, arguably the earliest save or die spell and incredibly deadly even to fighter types. Not even. 11 average con damage with a save to what negate? Range of touch sucks. Clerics get Hold Person 1 level earlier than wiz/sorcs. Yeap, there's a whole spell that only works on humanoids that you get. So when do you get Hold Monster? With domains, clerics get Burning Hands and Produce Flame which arguably is as good as Magic Missile. Never, in all my years has anyone ever used burning hands instead of magic missile unless they wanted to be different. And Produce Flame is a 2nd level spell that competes with Sorching Ray. Well if you could use it all at once and cast another one next round just like sorching ray. Clerics also get Spiritual Weapon which when combined with the cleric's medium BAB is nearly as good as Mordenkainen's Sword (7th level sor/wiz). Both spells being rather worthless, I don't think it really matters. Nice spells, but only if you use them at the begging of the fight and rarely have to switch the target. Not to mention the druid's repetoire which includes Call Lightning which is as good as Fireball and Lightning Bolt. Low level offensive clerical/druid power is just as potent as sorc/wiz. Not druid. we are talking about the CLERIC. And The only spell the Cleric has over the wizard at lower levels is Silence. Invisibility however, makes up for that. I think you're not looking hard enough. Harm is hardly the best clerical offensive spell. The Holy Word series of spell is absolutely broken as it is a no save instant area effect death spell. You say its broken. Well I'm surprised a "Broken" spell is overpowered. Really I am. However, its broken for the Monsters to use it not as much the PCs. If the Balor is even one level over the PCs, the Balor will just stun them all the time. If the Balor is lower level then them, then the PCs are epic. Dragons all have a lower CR then their HD. As do many other monsters. Oh yeah then there is the whole "Your Party better have the same alignment in a direction as you thats different from the enemys" in order to not kill your allies. Compare Finger of Death vs Destruction and tell me that clerical offensive spells are weaker than arcane offensive spells. One spell does not a better spell list make. And 3d6+13(25) vs. 10d6. So 23.5(35.5) vs. 35. Rather even. Hardly the "OMG so much better spell" that you seem to think. Metamagic feats are arguably the worst kinds of feats to choose as wizards because they have to be prepared in advance which negates any kind of versitility they give the wizard whilst taking up valuable feat slots. Prepared in advance just like EVERY OTHER SPELL THEY HAVE. Might want to pick a new argument here. Last time I looked, clerics have Spell Resistance, Spell Immunity, Death Ward and Freedom of Move just to name of a few of the best defensive spells any caster can get. Spell Turning, Mind Blank, Greater Invisibility, Globe of Invulnerability. Some of the best defensive spells a caster can get. Prismatic Sphere being the best. Domain restrictions are easily circumvented by having just 1 item creation feat. Clerics can make books using Miracle that gives you inherent bonus. In addition Miracle can get you any arcane spell up to 7th level. Yeap. So you lose one of 7 feats to go around that restriction. So there is a rather large cost involved. Unlike the wizard who gets that feat for free. And you have to use a valuable feat and then extra experince over what the wizard would use, to grant that inherent bonus. And talk about doing it the long way, that book would take quite some time to make. Wish is better at it. And using a 9th level slot to get a 7th or lower slot isn't exactly the best trade. Miracle is a versatile spell, granted, but honeslty if the only reason you have it is to duplicate arcane spells, then OBVIOUSLY the arcane list is better.
antibelpas 05-14-04, 02:02 PM	Originally posted by Kem And using a 9th level slot to get a 7th or lower slot isn't exactly the best trade. Miracle is a versatile spell, granted, but honeslty if the only reason you have it is to duplicate arcane spells, then OBVIOUSLY the arcane list is better. :) :) :D :D :bow: :bow: :cloud9: :love: :rofl: :ayyyy!: :ayyyy!:
Mirror, Mirror 05-14-04, 02:25 PM	Well, it seems that blasting spells are the wizard forte. I will update the analysis.
Thermanshs 05-14-04, 02:26 PM	-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Kem And using a 9th level slot to get a 7th or lower slot isn't exactly the best trade. Miracle is a versatile spell, granted, but honeslty if the only reason you have it is to duplicate arcane spells, then OBVIOUSLY the arcane list is better. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- :bow::cloud9::angel::D:D:) :):thumbsup::king: :tiphat::ayyyy!: :inlove:
gleep 05-14-04, 04:15 PM	While theory is all well and good, something to remember is practical application. Yes, in theory a cleric that has [/i]Divine Favor, Righteous Might[/i] and Divine Power cast on himself is a veritable melee juggernaught my own experience actually playing a cleric has shown that actually managing to get all those spells cast is extremely difficult. So difficult that my cleric now only bothers to prepare Divine Favor. Other concerns generally occur in battles: such as healing the fighters that are getting creamed or making sure that wizard stays alive long enough to drop a meteor swarm. In general, the great protective spells a cleric gains are not useful, or minimally useful, against creatures of equal CR. That's an important distinction. Against numbers of less powerful creatures a cleric can do quite well. Mass inflicts, the often-mentioned firestorm, the various aura spells, etc, all are very effective against critters that don't fail saves only on 1's. Against the creatures our party generally comes in conflict with, my cleric is only going to hit an opponent with a natural 20. Sure, there's spells that can help with that... but equipment, level, and other items balance it out. Not to mention needing the time and opportunity to cast the spells. When using spells to attack with my cleric I always assume the opponent is going to make their saving throw. This isn't pessimism but experience. Our arcane casters don't have that same disadvantage. They can count on at least a 50% success rate. All in all, clerics get some combat spells that are fairly interesting on paper, but not really that useful in actual combat. The best of the bunch, as far as I'm concerned, is destruction and that is only for the average 30 points of damage. Which itself tends to be less than a ranger can do in a round with a bow. Flame strike is pretty and great for setting roofs and trees on fire, but unless something is particularly vulnerable to holy damage it isn't much use. And the things that do tend to be vulnerable to holy damage tend to also be resistant or immune to fire. Net gain: 0. Most cleric spells have similar trade-offs. While they may otherwise be nearly equal to arcane spells, the limitations greatly reduce their usefulness. Now, in theory, I could build a cleric that will do much better with optimum starting equipment to max out those spell DCs... But that's for a built character. Not for one that is played. When you're playing a character, you end up with what the DM allows to come your way. You don't get the spiffy magic item shop from character creation. ;) I'm currently playing a cleric for 3 reasons: 1) It was an established character in the campaign, thus easy to integrate into the party. 2) I hadn't played one much before (just a couple Cleric/Rangers back in 1st ed) so it looked like a good challenge (And what a challenge it turned out to be). 3) Because I've been able to develop enough quirks and interests in the character to keep playing her. Please note the lack of kicking everything else's butt in the list. If the cleric was highly overpowered, I think she would have made much more of an impact in combat and other aspects of our game. She hasn't. Also, when I was absent for a few sessions there didn't seem to be any sudden inability for the party to overcome their adversaries. Heck, they didn't even die. I've hinted at it above, but when making these comparisons it is important to think of the actual difference in play. Remember that there's a reason why DnD is playtested. It's for the same reason planes are stuck in wind tunnels. Something can look awesome on paper but that doesn't mean it'll fly worth crap in actual use. :D --gleep
ManTimeForgot 05-14-04, 06:26 PM	Thermanshs please try and read what the post is saying before commenting. Try and disprove that the cleric has everything except spell list on the wizard. Fact is you can't. The cleric has bonuses in every conceivable category that the wizard does not. The wizard's bonus feats directly translate into the cleric's domain bonuses since each domain is worth two feats in strength. Now in order for the wizard to even COMPARE the wizard's spell list must have EVERYTHING on the clerical spell list. If the clerical spell list has things that the wizard spell list does not, and the wizard list does not absolutely blow the clerical list out of the water, then the wizard CANNOT be said to be balanced with the cleric considering all the other advantages the cleric has. Don't be silly. Monk dimension doors next to wizard, activates anti-magic field item. Wizard is now in an anti-magic field. Sure the wizard isn't going to stay around, but now all his protections are gone. If his initiative doesn't come up before an enemies does, then this wizard is going to get grappled and get screwed. And please people stop being deliberately obtuse. Citing all the damage spells that the wizard is good at without addressing the fact that the cleric has equally many really useful cure spells is obfuscation at best. Really good spells: Cure light wounds, Cure moderate wounds, cure serious wounds, cure critical wounds, mass cure light wounds, heal, lesser restoration, greater restoration, raise dead, and true ressurection. Now tell me what the wizard gets which is as necessary to party survival as the above spells. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Shadow DM 05-14-04, 06:28 PM	quote: "Never, in all my years has anyone ever used burning hands instead of magic missile unless they wanted to be different." Well, magic missile is all well and good...until your enemy uses the first level shield which also buffs your ac vs missiles to negate all mm damage. And yes your enemy can use an elemental resistance spell to stop burning hands, however that spell does not provide any extra protection vs other types of attacks. Plus mm is so overused in most worlds that every smart wiz will have a shield up to stop the damage.
castlemike 05-14-04, 06:32 PM	Clerics (and Druids) were balanced high in comparison to the other classes. Regarding Spell Lists there is always New/Original Spell Research for those Divine Casters who want to improve their combat spells. The reverse is not the same for their arcane counterparts. The core rules highly recommend not allowing access to arcane healing spells duplicating divine healing spells and they can FORGET about spells like Flame Strike, Reincarnation, Raise Dead, Heal, Resurrection, Greater Resurrection and Miracle so they can cast Wish spells without the personal cost of 5,000 EXP when they feel like it. Personally don't care for the arguement that if you choose to play a divine spellcaster out of character it can result in loss of divine spellcasting from your DM. (That premise is like a Wizard PC burning his spell book and saying I don't have any more spells) You have 9 alignments to choose from and True Neutral lets you do what you think is in your best interests which is about the only premise you need to make to a DM. (I believe this action is in my best interest because.........regardless or wether or not it really is in the campaign world) D8 the best hit die available to non fighter types. This is so good it is equivalent to the ranger a professional fighter type and only one other class gets the same benefit. The monks who get D8 don't get to wear armor. Plus the ability to wear your choice of armor without spell failure can not be underrated No other non fighter type class gets that and even the rangers is limited by armor choice and proficiency. (Druids don't get it quite as good with just Leather and Hide for Druids normally (Dragon Hide armor?)) Many a wizard or other character would gladly pay 1,500 GP to wear Full Plate and gain a +8 armor/shield bonus particularly at low levels and higher levels to protect their fragile lower hit point bodies if it came with out spell casting failure. To any character Not taking a hit almost as good as having higher hit points but particularly low hit point classes. Breast Plate and Banded provide some nice bonus at +5 and +6 for 200-250GP and using standard 25 - 32 point generation provide some dex adjustment. Even a chain shirt for 100 GP is a +4 armor bonus (that cannot be dispeled) and a mage armor spell that could be used for an open slot or another magic missile depending on your campaign. More Hit points which equates to the most hit points available to non fighters which helps ensure survivability and isn't isn't shabby, Best BAB available to non fighter type specialists, 2 good saves. In many ways the best spell versatility, full access to all spells except perhaps Miracle at high levels (because it has no user cost like Wish at 5,000 Exp and probably the single spell most subject to DM control because of effects on campaign without cost to caster). Don't normally need to take any healing spells and can do spontaneous healing on the spot which can't be underrated. Choice of Two domains confers a lot of flexibility: extra feats, extra spell selections, extra abilities, extra weapon proficiencies........ Turning weakened in 3.5 and tied to an ability but only clerics and paladins get access to it. Animal companions and Wild Shape for druids just read some of the boards for a few ideals about the benefits of those two items. Spells have to pray for Choice of Daily Spells from entire spell list cost praying and selecting. Purely "combat" spells alone arcane list versus divine sure arcane overall better but divine has some gems reincarnation, raise dead, resurrection, greater resurrection and Miracle at high levels hands down probably the best spell in the game. *** (Sure you won't get unlimited use of Miracle but consider campaign use in comparison to a Wizard with Wish at 5,000 EXP a use who doesn't get to duplicate 8th and below level arcane spells he might actually know for Free and more restrictions to the spells it can duplicate like Miracle does for Free. (Many wizards will trade a level for +5 to an ability score like Int or a really low score affecting play because of aging (With Miracle that is subject to DM and some will let the Clerics have a single +5 ability adjustment to Wisdom with a Greater Miracle for a cost of 5,000 EXP and others won't).*** Consider the Cleric abilites to The Paladin or The Ranger class abilitiesl I'm not aware of an arcane spell comparable to Call lightning where you get several attacks if you wish over several minutes but some would say Flame Arrow and enchanting missiles fits the bill. Sure only 3D6 but lasts several minutes and can be used for up to one bolt a level indoors and underground. Stormy areas increase to 3D10. Level 5 Wizard gets a 5D6 Fireball or Lightning bolt with a better range and longer area while a level 5 Druid gets up to 5 attacks depends on the encounter but interesting spell.
Thermanshs 05-14-04, 06:51 PM	Forgotten man...I've discussed this thing maybe a dozen times so I'm bored repeating myself again...so the only thing I have to show you now is the wizard's spell list in the 3,5 handbook(read it carefuly though) and to encourage you think just for 1 minute think beyond blasting things up and healing your allies.Then you could have a much better impression of what a wizard has to offer to a team.
castlemike 05-14-04, 06:55 PM	I'll post it again new and original spell research is available to most spell casters. Spend a few skill points in spellcraft along with a little time and gold and with a successful spellcraft check a divine caster can learn some divine combat spells which appeal to his character if he or she wishes. Personally I don't see why a Cleric particularly Clerics with the "Magic, Spell or War" Domains couldn't research some of those favorite arcane battle spells as divine spells with the research at 1,000 GP a level and a successful spellcraft check. (Depends on the campaign and the DM but the option already exists in the core rules) Give the new spells different names Flaming Orb to Fireball, Heironeous's Bolt of Thunder for Lightning Bolt for similar effects. Remember a lot of screaming when a sorcerer or wizard tries to learn any healing from an arcane cure light spell written by a Bard or a Witch because the core rules recommend against.
Kem 05-14-04, 06:59 PM	Originally posted by Shadow DM Well, magic missile is all well and good...until your enemy uses the first level shield which also buffs your ac vs missiles to negate all mm damage. And yes your enemy can use an elemental resistance spell to stop burning hands, however that spell does not provide any extra protection vs other types of attacks. Plus mm is so overused in most worlds that every smart wiz will have a shield up to stop the damage. And every smart wizard has resistance to fire. The most common element type that damage spells deal. Burning hand's range is just about touch. And Magic missile doesn't have to target the wizard that could cast shield. So in the end you have up to 5d6 fire damage at very very close range of the most common damage/resistance type. Or up to 5d4+5 damage at a decent range, that "might" get blocked by a shield spell. Shield has a short duration. I'd like to point out that the post 3 above this one is a MUCH better arguement then trying to say that the cleric has a better spell list. Now in order for the wizard to even COMPARE the wizard's spell list must have EVERYTHING on the clerical spell list. If the clerical spell list has things that the wizard spell list does not, and the wizard list does not absolutely blow the clerical list out of the water, Wizards get spells that are not on the Clerics spell list, so the cleric's spell list cannot possibly blow the wizards spell list out of the water. Also since the cleric spell list does not include everything on the wizard spell list, it does not compare. Really good spells: Cure light wounds, Cure moderate wounds, cure serious wounds, cure critical wounds, mass cure light wounds, heal, lesser restoration, greater restoration, raise dead, and true ressurection. Now tell me what the wizard gets which is as necessary to party survival as the above spells. You only need to be healed if you get hit. You only need to be raised from the dead if you die. Those spells are not all exclusive to the cleric, and not needed in all parties. Don't be silly. Monk dimension doors next to wizard, activates anti-magic field item. Impossible. But inventive.
Tony Vargas 05-14-04, 07:10 PM	Originally posted by Kem You only need to be healed if you get hit. You only need to be raised from the dead if you die. Those spells are not all exclusive to the cleric, and not needed in all parties. They aren't quite exclusive to the cleric, but the cleric is certainly the best at them. And, healing is certainly needed by all parties, raise/ressurection is more campaign-dependent (some DMs don't even use it, others make it so readily available you don't even need a cleric of you own to do it). Healing, in fact, is probably the single most critical, indispensible, and 'powerful' ability in the entire game. It's also about the #1 reason for telling the last guy to sit down at the gaming table "we need a cleric" and the #1 reason he probably grumbles about it. In an absolute sense, the cleric does have a lot of power - but, a good deal of that power is best utilized by being deployed to the rest of his party.
Mirror, Mirror 05-14-04, 07:30 PM	To the cleric supporters: Is the wizard spell list so much better that it compensates for all the other abilities clerics have over wizards? And what about the druid spell list? How does it compare to both the wizard and cleric spell lists?
Darth K'Trava 05-14-04, 07:44 PM	Originally posted by Kem Minor thing... Just say they can use em :) Wizards have a VERY hard time using either of these past level 4-6 :) And better then a dagger and quarterstaff isn't exactly saying much :) If that wizard is being forced to use that quarterstaff and dagger, there's something majorly wrong here.
Darth K'Trava 05-14-04, 07:47 PM	Originally posted by Thermanshs I'd DIE to see the moron playing this wizard who wouldn't teleport/dimension door away but rather stay and fight there. You seem to forget that in an antimagic field that wizard is stuck there. Unless he 'runs like hell outta there!' that is..... ;)
Darth K'Trava 05-14-04, 07:58 PM	Flame strike is pretty and great for setting roofs and trees on fire, but unless something is particularly vulnerable to holy damage it isn't much use. And the things that do tend to be vulnerable to holy damage tend to also be resistant or immune to fire. Net gain: 0. Most cleric spells have similar trade-offs. While they may otherwise be nearly equal to arcane spells, the limitations greatly reduce their usefulness. Gleep, you mistake Flame Strike for Fireball. Flame Strike doesn't set the area around it on fire, unlike Fireball. If I recall, you can CHOOSE whether or not to fry the area around your actual target.
beaver1024 05-14-04, 08:01 PM	Originally posted by Thermanshs Are you telling that a cleric's spell list is equal to or even superior to that of a sor/wiz???!?!?!?1 :rofl: The cleric spell has to be at least equal to the sorc/wiz list because many sorc/wiz spells appear on the cleric and domain spell list. Additionally is Flame Strike weaker than Cone of Cold? If Divine Power weaker than Tenser's Transformation? Is Wind Walk weaker than Overland Flight? Is Fire Storm weaker than Horrid Wilting? Clerics with the water domain get access to Horrid Wilting at exactly the same level as the wiz and earlier than the sorc. Add Miracle and you now have a 9th level spell being able to duplicate an 8th level spell with no xp cost.
beaver1024 05-14-04, 08:26 PM	Originally posted by antibelpas This whole quote is a big HUH?!!!! the cleric spells you cite dont' even COMPARE to the wizard ones! Searling Light vs. Scorching ray SL is 3rd, while SR is 2nd. SL does 1d8/2 levels max 5d8. SR 4d6 per ray, one ray per 3 levels! SR wins...NO CONTEST! Actually no. Searing Light cannot be resisted by energy and does up to 10d8 against undead. You forget that Sorching Ray needs 3 attacks to hit for full damage. Energy Resistance applies 3 times for Scorching Ray and since fire resistance is the most common energy resistance amongst monsters Searing Light will, on average, be as good as Scorching Ray to prepare in any given situation. A once a day domain spell of burning hands or produce flame as good as magic missle! HELLO! What rules are you reading? magic missle is an automatic hit force effect! with a huge range! WAAAY better than the other spells. Burning hands is 5d4 max at 10ft. Produce flame requires a ranged touch attack. Once a day restriction on domain abilities is so easy to get around. 1 Scribe Scroll or 1 Craft Wand or 1 Craft Staff feat is all that is needed to get around the restrictions. Produce Flame is better than Magic Missile because it scales infinately and you get multiple attacks based on your BAB which clerics have ample amount of. They can also boost their BAB via Divine Power. At 20th level, Produce Flame can do up to 20d6 + 100 points of damage over 6 rounds. There is no way Magic Missile could do the same. If you tried, you would have wasted all your 1st level slots for the day and the cleric only used up 1 domain slot which is restorable via Perl of Power or any other easy to obtain means. At 5th level Burning Hands does 12.5 average damage vs Magic Missile's 10.5 and it does it to an area. It can easily take out multiple low level foes whilst Magic Missile can hope to take out 1. At higher levels clerics have other options but as far as blasting goes as. Clerics can obtain blasting power as good as wiz/sorcs. Wait clerics get the same blasting power as wiz/sorcs. Chain Lightning anyone? Call Lightning as good as Fireball or Lightning bolt? Now you're just making us all laugh. Call Lighnting is 3d6 or 3d10 if its raining. It only effects one target. Fireball is a max of 10d6 for a 20ft radius! Lightning bolt is 10d6 in a line! Yes you can repeatedly use call lightning but it takes up your turn for that round! At 5th level, even at base damage, Call Lightning can do up to 15d6 damage to 1 creature. Fireball and Lightning Bolt does 15d6 on *3* consecutive castings. Whilst Fireball and Lightning Bolt does better against lower level creatures they are poor against 1 CR 5 monster (see Dire Lion). So lots of damage vs 1 foe vs small damage vs multiple foes, I'd say Call Lightning is about on par with Fireball and Lightning Bolt. So shall we talk defensive spells? Spell Turning? Prismatic Sphere? Wall of Force? Stone Skin? Of the spells you mentioned clerics can get all that but 1 through domains. In addition clerics get Spell Resistance, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Righteous Might, Anti Life shell and more. Which the wizard cannot hope to get by any means except by huge xp expenditure. so you see, the wizard list is easily better. Actually no I don't. If the wizard list is so much better then why do clerics get cast the Power Words, Stone Skin and other good wizard spells in addition to their other benefits? Why is Flame Strike as good as Cone of Cold? Why is Finger of Death worse than Destruction? Why is Divine Power better than Tenser's Transformation? Even if you can successfully argue that sorc/wiz spells are better than cleric/druid spells you still lose the argument because it can be more easily shown that cleric/druids are overpowered since they get access to the best sorc/wiz spells.
castlemike 05-14-04, 08:41 PM	Originally posted by Mirror, Mirror To the cleric supporters: Is the wizard spell list so much better that it compensates for all the other abilities clerics have over wizards? And what about the druid spell list? How does it compare to both the wizard and cleric spell lists? NO. While each core class has it's own attractions IMO Clerics mechanically are the best overall core class in the game when they are more than just a healing battery and 3.5 addressed that with cure light wound wands. Reading the boards quite a few people rate Druids Second followed by (Barbarians and Wizards). You started the thread IMO Unfair to compare Druids and Wizards solely by spell lists Druid is generally regarded as the second best core class because of wild shaping potential for abuses. Comparing the Druid versus the Wizard solely on the basis of Spell lists is nitpicking the classes. The Divine classes have spells and abilites most other classes can never access or only at a very high cost while existing rules allow the divine spell casters to access/clone arcane type spells with new or original spell research. New or original Spell research as per the core books and depending on the campaign mitigate most complaints about inferior divine damage causing spells. Research something new and original in most campaigns. IMO that was one area 2E got it right with specialty clerics. It's just seems wrong for some Clerics like Rao the Peacemaker to be researching more destructive spells. For righteous wrath of the wronged existing spells really seem sufficient. Consider a Druid or Cleric of Heironeous A Power of Battle and War with his signature hand and lightning bolt holy symbol. Call Lighting, Lightning Bolt, Call Lightning Storm, Chain Lightning those kinds of divine attacks seem in character to a character who bothered to research them. (I'm aware Druid already has two of those spells and there is no need to point it out to me Thanks) Consider that option for researching original spells like healing or necromantic spells like reincarnating or raising the dead is strongly recommended against for minor healing and usually impossible for sorcerers and wizards to duplicate other than through Wish and Limited Wish in most campaigns. (Back in 2E wizards had access to reincarnate because it was on their spell lists because a Netherese Wizard had spent about a century researching the spell.) I read a lot of posts but I've never seen a post where someone was complaining that his DM wouldn't let his or her Cleric research a Divine Offensive Spell equal to or less powerful than an arcane equivalent. IMO a cleric of a magic power should be able to research a similar divine equivalent to most if not all arcane spells at standard spell research costs and spell craft checks. Call it something different and tweaking it a little bit helps. Being open-minded myself believe a cleric with the Magic, Spell or War domain should be able to research equivalent divine devastation spells slightly better than their bethren clergy with other domains part of a synergy that goes along with their domain choice. Here's the thing just knowing it is an option most clerics never ever do the research. Another thing about new and original divine spells is they can be treated like domain spells in the fact the DM can rule that they can not be converted to spontaneous healing. How many clerics would fund original spell research with it's costs and spell craft checks for more than a few arcane spells even in the really wealthy campaigns? The easiest fix is just saying NO despite the core rules. A DM could require taking the Magic or Spell Domain usually associated with a power of magic for all or potentially abusive players. P.S. Thanks for the good word earlier Kem
beaver1024 05-14-04, 09:05 PM	Originally posted by Kem Self Only. Clerics have alot of those. They are 3x better if they can be used on others. It doesn't negate how good the spell is. This spell alone allows clerics to usurp the role of fighters in the party, it subsumes and surpasses the functionality of 4 feats (Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation and Greater Weapon Specialisation). It gives a huge +6/+6 boost that is stackable to with pretty much everything. Divine Favour one of the strongest spells at 1st level. Divine Favour is usable all the way to 20th level whilst Magic Missile tops out at around 10. Sorching Ray does double the damage, so go ahead resist half or do more against undead. At 10th level its 8d6 damage vs. 5d6. And Sorching ray goes up to 12d6 next level and is a level lower. No actually Searing light does 5d8 at 10th level and up to 10d8 vs undead. You forget that fire resistance applies for each attack roll you have to make for Scorching Ray. On average at 10th level Searing Light does an average of 22.5 pts of damage. Scorching Ray does an average of 28. Not exactly half. Since fire resistance applies to the 2 attacks of Scorching Ray a mere fire resistance of 5 will reduce Scorching Ray's average damage to below Searing Light. A fire resistance of 10 will basically negate Scorching Ray. Against undead searing light can do 10d6 up to 10d8 (avg dmg 35 and 45 respectively). Not even. 11 average con damage with a save to what negate? Range of touch sucks. Did you even read the spell? The saving throw DC is not the usual 10 + wis mod + spell level. The saving throw DC is 10 + 1/2 caster level + wis mod. 11 con damage is not good? Reduction in fort save? Reduction in hp? For a majority of character classes this means death. Range touch sucks? Not when they produce a death effect. Also who better to deliver touch attacks than the heavily armoured cleric? Yeap, there's a whole spell that only works on humanoids that you get. So when do you get Hold Monster? At low levels, sorc/wiz don't have access to Hold Monster either. For the sorc she may never have access to Hold Monster. This spell is instant death for warrior types at low levels. Never, in all my years has anyone ever used burning hands instead of magic missile unless they wanted to be different. And Produce Flame is a 2nd level spell that competes with Sorching Ray. Well if you could use it all at once and cast another one next round just like sorching ray. Just because you never seen it used doesn't mean that it isn't as good as Magic Missile. Produce Flame is 1st level for druids. It scales infinately. Even Scorching Ray tops out at 12th level. You can speed up it's rate of use by increasing your number of attacks in a round. A relatively trivial thing to do since Divine Power gives you the same BAB as a fighter. Both spells being rather worthless, I don't think it really matters. Nice spells, but only if you use them at the begging of the fight and rarely have to switch the target. Mordenkainen's Sword maybe useless but Spiritual Weapon certainly isn't because at only 2nd level you can more than 1 Spiritual Weapon and it's effects multiplies with increasing BAB. Again trivially obtained via Divine Power. Not druid. we are talking about the CLERIC. And The only spell the Cleric has over the wizard at lower levels is Silence. Invisibility however, makes up for that. Clerics get invisibility via Trickery domain. One spell does not a better spell list make. And 3d6+13(25) vs. 10d6. So 23.5(35.5) vs. 35. Rather even. Hardly the "OMG so much better spell" that you seem to think. Did you even read the spell, Destruction cannot be negated by anything short of a Miracle or True Ressurection. For a wizard it takes *2* Wishes to recover from it. Finger of Death can be negated by a Ressurection. Prepared in advance just like EVERY OTHER SPELL THEY HAVE. Might want to pick a new argument here. Which is exactly why metamagic is useless for a wizard. Spell Turning, Mind Blank, Greater Invisibility, Globe of Invulnerability. Some of the best defensive spells a caster can get. Prismatic Sphere being the best. And clerics can get all of those through domains and Miracle. Yeap. So you lose one of 7 feats to go around that restriction. So there is a rather large cost involved. Unlike the wizard who gets that feat for free. And you have to use a valuable feat and then extra experince over what the wizard would use, to grant that inherent bonus. And talk about doing it the long way, that book would take quite some time to make. Wish is better at it. And using a 9th level slot to get a 7th or lower slot isn't exactly the best trade. Miracle is a versatile spell, granted, but honeslty if the only reason you have it is to duplicate arcane spells, then OBVIOUSLY the arcane list is better. You only need to do it as a 1 time cost. Additionally the item creation feat you used to create the books can also be used to get around domain restriction. Miracle can be used over and over far more often than Wish because it doesn't entail such a high XP cost. Miracle can also do other things you realise, it's just that the duplication feature is xp free and can be used often. Lol if you're going to use that argument I can turn that around with Wish. Wish only allows the duplication of 6th level cleric/druid spells and it costs 5000 xp per attempt. This clearly shows that the cleric/druid list is so much more superior to sorc/wiz list. Additionally if sorc/wiz spell list is so much better than cleric/druid spell isn't it then overpowered to allow cleric/druids access to that list at all?
Thermanshs 05-14-04, 09:11 PM	Originally posted by Darth K'Trava You seem to forget that in an antimagic field that wizard is stuck there. Unless he 'runs like hell outta there!' that is..... ;) Nope...antimagic field prevents spell effects from energizing in there but doesn't dispel them or counter them...just suppress them..so a caster can easily wink out since the area to be teleported into isn't affected by antimagic Beaver...you obviously haven't studied the arcane spell list or can't fugure out how much power it holds...also...you think a cleric's spell list SHOULD be equal to a wizard's(which currently is waaay behind)?that's a huge mistake my friend...cause then noone would like to play an arcane caster...why bother messing with arcane spells when you can have equal power spells and in the meanwhile cast in a full plate and melee+turn undead?!?! you can't have all the share yours...that's obvious... And please guys don't point these ****ing domains saying that a cleric gets close to a sor/wiz through them.Their casting rate is only once per day and NO CLERIC has access to all of them,try instead taking a sample cleric and think around this point
castlemike 05-14-04, 09:57 PM	I could be mistaken but in most campaigns a spellcaster who casts or triggers a teleport spell or item in an antimagic field doesn't go anywhere until the field is removed. (The key is the start point is in an antimagic field where magic is suppressed so the effect cannot take place yours is the first campaign where I've heard this would work because the destination is outside the field and outside the 10' radius of the antimagic field) The field suppresses the teleport while the spellcaster is inside the antimagic field so the spellcaster doesn't teleport anywhere while inside the antimagic field, now after the field is removed or the caster leaves the field (which is not always possible) .
ManTimeForgot 05-14-04, 10:39 PM	Trying to convince me that the Wizard's spell list is inherently superior to the point of making up for lesser HD, lesser BAB, lesser saving throws, lesser AC, more costly design build, less spells gained at level up, and less castings per day compared to the cleric (unless specialist, and then you had to give up spell schools and take a hit to your spellcraft checks) is a useless endeavor. You can sit there and tell me "just look at the wizard's list; its better." But I've played wizards almost exclusively since 2ed, and this includes the 40 separate wizard characters I had in 3.0. So I happen to know damn well just what a wizard character can provide to a party. But I also know the wizard's weaknesses well enough to know that the wizard has NOTHING to fall back on, while the cleric does. A wizard who is caught off guard is dead. A wizard who is caught without spells prepared during the night is dead. A wizard who is exposed to an anti-magic field or dead-magic zone is dead. A cleric is not as dead. What possible argument is there to contradict this? Do you all really think the wizard's spell list dominates so pervasively, so overwhelmingly as to make up for the wizard's weaknesses? So either point out to me what spells the wizard has that are so great or just admit that the cleric has roughly similar spell casting capability with balance between what clerics can cast that wizards can't and vice versa. I see domination/charm spells and illusion spells which the cleric does not get. Just what about these spells make the wizard "necessary" to the party. Otherwise I see a bunch of spells which the cleric can roughly duplicate, if not duplicate out right. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Koga:The ninja trick 05-14-04, 11:12 PM	As someone who loves offenssive magic I am naturally drawn to arcana. Think about it.. melee is nice, but if you were interested in melee you wouldn't be a spellcaster to begin with.. Role-playing restrictions can be annoying. A good role-player will enjoy the challenge, but a good role-player plus a newbie or bad DM equals not fun for either party.. Overall a cruel druid might compare to a trigger happy sorcerer. But assuming I'd rather cast poisen all the time and transform into an animal to nibble on my opponent's intenstine. I wanna' cast curses gosh darnit! That's why I picked a spellcaster to begin with! >< Evil clerics just are no good, I mean really how many times can you wield "negative energy" before you get bored? Then you're simply a darth vader wannabe who has to always prepare heal spells and risk upsetting your god cause of it. So it's all about where you set your priorities. If you want to be a team player and don't plan to get much spotlight divine is better. If you work better alone but want to help the group arcane is the way to go.
Kem 05-14-04, 11:47 PM	Trying to convince me that the Wizard's spell list is inherently superior to the point of making up for lesser HD, lesser BAB, lesser saving throws, lesser AC, more costly design build, less spells gained at level up, and less castings per day compared to the cleric (unless specialist, and then you had to give up spell schools and take a hit to your spellcraft checks) is a useless endeavor. Yes. Focus on that. Its much easier to go that route then the spell by spell bit.
ManTimeForgot 05-15-04, 12:03 AM	Thermanshs: You cannot cast teleport while in an anti-magic sphere. Thus it doesn't matter whether or not the area you are teleporting to is affected by anti-magic. And yes we can't point to domains because unless the cleric is an idiot the cleric will realize that he can create items (create wonderous item does everything and a bag of chips) that cast the spells on his domain list as often as he needs them. And telling people they aren't considering your arguments is pretty high-order of you considering you don't seem to give people the same courtesty in return. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
MoogleEmpMog 05-15-04, 01:06 AM	Actually, comparing fireball and lightning bolt to call lightning is unfair. The proper comparison is flame arrows to call lightning, and I have to give the edge to the arcane caster here. Flame Arrows: 50d6 max (at 5th level!) Call Lightning: 15d6 max Flame arrows is by FAR the best offensive spell at 3rd level... it just takes longer to have its full effect, just as call lightning does.
castlemike 05-15-04, 02:35 AM	Well then someone could play an Elven Cleric and research a divine Level 3 spell equivalent to Flame Arrow at 3,000 GP with a successful spellcraft check and if he wished he could continue researching a divine equivalent of Fireball or Lightning bolt at another 3,000 GP apiece with successful spell craft checks should he wish. (A counterpart Sorcerer/Wizard usually not allowed the option of researching Clerical healing Cure Serious or Remove Disease (Or in some campaigns you can research if forever just never successfully (The old post if you want to heal take a level in cleric :) )) Flame Arrow is Useful spell if a single person utilizing, although rarely except in seiges and unusual incidents where a single individual would normally need to or use all 50 flaming missiles. Much More Useful Spell if several people using the flaming projectiles. (Doesn't mean all 50 arrows will hit targets) I don't normally see "Most" encounters go over 10 rounds "Normally", they do occassionally but not "Normally".
castlemike 05-15-04, 03:07 AM	Originally posted by Thermanshs Beaver...you obviously haven't studied the arcane spell list or can't fugure out how much power it holds...also...you think a cleric's spell list SHOULD be equal to a wizard's(which currently is waaay behind)?that's a huge mistake my friend...cause then noone would like to play an arcane caster...why bother messing with arcane spells when you can have equal power spells and in the meanwhile cast in a full plate and melee+turn undead?!?! you can't have all the share yours...that's obvious... And please guys don't point these ****ing domains saying that a cleric gets close to a sor/wiz through them.Their casting rate is only once per day and NO CLERIC has access to all of them,try instead taking a sample cleric and think around this point The thing about domain choices is they can provide more than just extra spells, some confer special abilities or attacks, some confer additional bonus to skill checks, some confer extra feats. some confer extra weapon proficiencies lot of potential there. Another thing about domains is they push daily total spell casting over a comparable specialist wizard and our only four spells short of equal casting with a sorcerer at level 20. I assume you generally play clerics from your posts. Consider playing a Core Mystic Theurge for the best of both classes casting arcane and divine spells through level 7 spells. Of course your PC would probably have to sell the armor to be effective or take penalties casting arcane spells. Casting arcane spells wearing armor, particularly heavy armor, without spell failure is virtually ignored by most of the posters on this board focusing on how great the wizard spell list is. Don't forget the MT also uses the Superior Wizardly HD, BAB and Saves for it's progression. But wait we can get around those restrictions by playing a Gestalt character a Cleric-Wizard from UA with a +2 ECL adjustment they can cast arcane spells in armor without spell failure since they are Clerics. Benefits of Going Gestalt: If you go gestalt as a Cleric-Wizard you get access to the "Best" spell list of the wizard in addition to your "inferior" divine spell list, gain a familiar, scribe scroll and Four Wizard bonus feats at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20 which is nice everybody likes extra feats. If a wizard goes gestalt he gets better HD, better BAB, better Fortitude saves, Shield and All armor proficiencies along with Arcane Armored Spell Casting Without Failure, plus he gets to turn undead and gets to cast the "inferior" clerical spells which more than double his daily spellcasting if he is a specialist wizard and it's even better for a generalist wizard. In addition to the benefits granted by his two domain choices (A Bonus spell at each level, possible feats, abilities or skill enhancements in addition to his standard abilities and access to the "Best" spell list of the Wizard. (Other than using Wishes to improve personal stats at high levels I think the Wizard-Cleric Gestalt will be using Miracle in lieu of Wish in most incidents) After comparing the benefits a wizard or cleric gains from going MT or Gestalt Wizard-Cleric IMO the wizard class benefits better than the cleric in both cases. While many consider divine spell casters over powered they were really just balanced high in comparison to the other core classes. Their balanced high game mechanic make them the top two core classes while all classes have something to offer especially in a team environment.
beaver1024 05-15-04, 05:29 AM	Originally posted by MoogleEmpMog Actually, comparing fireball and lightning bolt to call lightning is unfair. The proper comparison is flame arrows to call lightning, and I have to give the edge to the arcane caster here. Flame Arrows: 50d6 max (at 5th level!) Call Lightning: 15d6 max Flame arrows is by FAR the best offensive spell at 3rd level... it just takes longer to have its full effect, just as call lightning does. For Flame Arrows to be effective you actually have to hit with those arrows. Considering sorc/wiz's poor BAB you'd be lucky to get more than 10 shots off before the encounter is over or the sorc/wiz is dead. On the other hand, if clerics had Flame Arrows then yes, Flame Arrows would be better than Call Lightning. Have you ever heard of the cleric archer? Additionally Flame Arrows requires the sorc/wiz to be actively engaged in combat in order to utilise it. Call Lightning can be cast while the druid is wildshaped using natural spell. In order to show that sorc/wiz's spells are so much better than divine spells they'd have to better than all equivalent divine spells under all circumstances. They're not. Fireball is not better than Call Lightning/Searing Light when facing certain common types of opponents. High HP low CR monster (eg Dire Lion) or elemental resistance creatures thwarts Fireball but not Call Lightning/Searing Light. Hence as clerics/druids have offensive options just as potent as sorc/wiz you cannot say that sorc/wiz spells are better than cleric/druids.
beaver1024 05-15-04, 05:43 AM	Originally posted by Thermanshs And please guys don't point these ****ing domains saying that a cleric gets close to a sor/wiz through them.Their casting rate is only once per day and NO CLERIC has access to all of them,try instead taking a sample cleric and think around this point Domains are a fundamental class feature of clerics ignoring it is like ignoring the wizard bonus feats. Unfortunately for the poor sorcerer there is nothing they have that is worthwhile ignoring. If we can't count domains then, at the very least to be fair, we can't count the wizard learning additional spells beyond what they get free per level. There is no gurantee that wizards will be able to find or afford all the spells that they need. Teleport may be the best transport spell but if the wizard doesn't choose Teleport as part of the 2 free spell they get when they level up, they may never learn Teleport. Hence the wiz/sorc (the sorc does anyway) ends up with an extremely limited spell list making them even worse in comparison with cleric spellcasting. This only highlights another overpowered cleric/druid feature. They instantly know all the spells on their list the moment they are able to cast spells of those level. There are many ways to get around the domain restriction. Any 1 of Scribe Scroll, Craft Wand, Craft Staff or Craft Wonderous Item will do it. Those feats have other uses in their own right so the cleric isn't losing anything by choosing them. Perls of Power, Rings of Spell Storing and a plethora of magic items will help the cleric bypass the pathetic domain restriction.
Thermanshs 05-15-04, 07:51 AM	Beaver...I didn't mean ignoring the domain powers but putting them aside or at least not pointing every power each of them offers...don't try to counterevidence every spell a wizard has that's also in the cleric's list.That's 1000% wrong.Some arcane spells really ARE in the cleric's spell list but even then as I said before and you FAILED to misprove is that NO CLERIC has access to more than 2 domains(please don't add PRC's cause then matters get out of trail) which he must select and then one of them he'd be able to cast for the day.Magic items also make the matter even more complicated.Clerics get far fewer feats than a wizard does and their focus is in melee combat-turning as well that means there are many clerical builds that don't even pick scribe scroll!!!Many sorcerer variants on the other hand have UMD as a class skill also being related with CHA (the class' strong feature) and sorcerers multiclassing is a much more widespread phenomenon than cleric ones. Forgotten Man...I very likely doubt if you have played so much wizards or even then you haven't caught the point of arcane spellcasting. -Be out of resources? -Which one gets out of home without even a rope-trick scroll?If he does then he deserves all that you've mentioned.S**t happens man,and the wizard isn't the only victim here. -Clang around in full-plate and thin you're unbeatable? -Be serious,no arcane caster with brains in his head goes into melee while the clerics function has much to do with sheer combat support.That's why I pointed in my initial reply that their survivability is equal. -Clerics when buffed are even better then fighters. -Oh really?Then next time you are in front of a dwarven defender start buffing yourself while I'll be wetting ma blade with your divine blood. Man...a cleric does have many options in combat but time is pushing as well....I agree that buffs and healing ARE extremely useful but then you'd have to give up some other vital role... An arcane caster's role is muvh clearer though...stay out of melee...maybe 100ft apart and burn...(don't think however that this is the one and foremost skill such a character should focus as you continiously refer to...) So I'm gonna encourage you for another time to take these spell lists side by side and compare them...I'm sure you're gonna find some dozens of spells the cleric can by no means even come close to with his defensive orientated spell list.(Again think that you only have 2 domains to choose from).And I'm not counting the arcane caster's paradise...Faerun...
Shadow DM 05-15-04, 07:52 AM	Well, first I wanted to correct someone. Clerics cannot get Prismatic Sphere through miracle. Well unless they wanna fork out 5000 xp...so in theory they could I suppose, but that is just crazy. And wish can do the same thing. Ugg so in theory a wizards gets all the cleric spells too. My god maybe they are both unbalanced classes. I mean lets face it, no one actually fights at high level, it is all just crazy casters in limbo somewhere hucking magic at each other... Listen guys, again I will say. Clerics are pretty badass, though...and not including MIRACLE...their spell list is not as diverse as a wizard's. A wizard has a more diversified list of stuff he can pull off. A cleric is a more focused type of caster usually with the purpose of his deity in mind. Cleric spells are very direct in what they do, not as much room for weird stuff to happen. And yes I know a cleric can research spells that a wizard has...in theory...but also a wizard can reasearch spells a cleric has...in theory. Anyway, here is what it comes down to. A cleric is a servant of his god or belief. He is...for lack of a better word...a glorified lackey of his cause. He is powerful, but his actions are forever limited by the one he serves. Where as a wizard is usually the master of his own destiny only really answering to his spellbook. I firmly believe that the power of the cleric is balanced because he can not react to the same number of situations in as many diverse ways as a wizard can. But, in term, a wizard cannot strap on armor and wade to the front line should the need arise...well tensers transformation I suppose, but that is still usually a bad idea. Clerics are badass, wizards are badass. I don't think one is really better than the other. Now the bard...he is crazy. He goes and sings to the king and before you know it an army is beating down on both the cleric and the wizard. An army or rangers, thieves, and paladins, because they are lonely and want to be thought of as cool too. And the barbarian stays home because obviously he hates the paladin's uppity attitude.
Shadow DM 05-15-04, 08:00 AM	quote: -Clerics when buffed are even better then fighters. -Oh really?Then next time you are in front of a dwarven defender start buffing yourself while I'll be wetting ma blade with your divine blood. Actually clerics can buff themselves to be better than fighters in combat...it is kinda crazy. However, the way I see it, they use a bunch of spells to do this and it only lasts for that combat. The fighter is badass at what he does 24/7 and a smart fighter can just turn on the AC with a tower shield, fight defensive, and wear the cleric's durations out. Assuming the two are fighting. But yes clerics can buff themselves to be better than fighters for short periods of time. I have done it many times to the shagrin of my players.
Shadow DM 05-15-04, 08:00 AM	I remember in the old days when clerics could only use maces. They never really explained that. I just sorta looked at my players and said "its because god says so" Now when my players ask me why they can't worship ideals and get powers from cheese I say "because the DM says so" Does that make me like a god...hmmmm... I think that it was actually easier to DM second because so many rules were so vague it was harder for players to argue with you. Now they are always uppity trying to challenge everything with their silly rules. How I yearn for arcaic words like thac0 and PPDM.
Shadow DM 05-15-04, 08:00 AM	They just won't delete! Alright, well then I will just...say that I think clerics are...fun to play?
Thermanshs 05-15-04, 08:07 AM	Shadow DM,we're in perfect agreement...but edit your triple post so that they don't use unneeded space.
MoogleEmpMog 05-15-04, 01:06 PM	My point about Flame Arrows was that, like any buff that can be cast on others, it is best cast on someone who focuses on the type of combat it's used for - NOT on the wizard himself. Same as most, though not all, clerical buffs, which is why I prefer to leave them out of the equation.
antibelpas 05-15-04, 02:12 PM	Originally posted by ManTimeForgot [B]Thermanshs please try and read what the post is saying before commenting. Try and disprove that the cleric has everything except spell list on the wizard. Fact is you can't. Really good spells: Cure light wounds, Cure moderate wounds, cure serious wounds, cure critical wounds, mass cure light wounds, heal, lesser restoration, greater restoration, raise dead, and true ressurection. /B] First of all, several people on THIS thread and on the "divine casters are fine" thread have proven SEVERAL times BEYOND a doubt that the wizard spell list is far superior to the clerics...in everything but healing. with that said, I come to my second point. The really good spells you cite actually indicate that you're not someone who has issues with cleric power....but you are one of the bleeding-heart-healing-envy foundation that dispises that wizards cannot cast healing spells. also, YES a cleric should have some really good spells, and healing is what he's supposed to be better at. The wizard wins everywhere else. THAT is the point of D&D. You need a wizard for utility and power, and the priest to patch you up / dispatch undead and true evil. That is the beauty of D&D. The classes depend upon each other....that's why there are adventuring parties! Some classes stand better on their own yes, but the interdependence of the classes make it a game.
ManTimeForgot 05-15-04, 05:50 PM	*sorry about the caps, but I don't like being baselessly insulted by people.* If you think you know me so well based on my posting, then just how exactly did you come to the conclusion that I am a "wannabe healer" when I have never stated anything to that effect, and am in fact against giving wizards healing? I don't know how many times I have to say no before the point gets driven home. Point out to me where on ANY thread it has been shown to within even a MODICUM of reasonable doubt that the cleric list is inferior to the wizard's spell list. Show me. Anywhere is fine. Oh, and while you are at it, try and fine one which actually provides evidence rather than just a bunch of wizard players in unison claiming that the wizard list is better. I don't wan't wizards to heal. I don't care about it that much. In fact wizards being able to heal would not power up the wizard in ANY way. The wizard doesn't have enough spell slots to accomodate healing. The only reason why the cleric can accomodate healing is that the cleric spontaneously casts all their prepared spells as healing spells at their leisure. This advantage coupled with learning EVERY spell at level up is something that no wizard can match. The wizard list is probably better when taken as a whole, but no wizard can EVER get the whole list short of screwing themselves in the money department past the point of usefulness. Sorry Thermanshs but I have played that many wizards, and I have gotten the point of arcane casting. I am more skilled at playing wizards than any other class, and yet I know for a fact that the cleric beats the wizard hands down in power. I know the usefulness of the wizard. It's called combat control. You cast spells at key moments to interrupt your opponent's battle strategy. Conjuration, transmutation, and illusion are the wizard's best friends in the whole wide world. Conjuration for spells which have no spell resistance possible, or have secondary effects which are unresistable (like web and grease). Transmutation for spells which have no saving throw and no spell resistance like reverse graivty, disintegrate the ground or wall, or polymorph the air into fire. Illusion because no one gets any save or spell resistance until they interact with the illusion and has the option to duplicate almost every single conjuration spell with a single spell that has no material component required. That all said what does the wizard have on hallow (best area effect protection spell in the game. Guards and wards can sit down), forbiddance (best anti-teleport spell in the game. Dimensional anchor can sit down), and their are plenty of really useful spells which only specialized wizard builds would realistically take. Like magic circle against evil. The wizard spell position is a necessary one in the party. Likewise the cleric spell position is a necessary one in the party. The cleric gets a bunch of benefits the wizard doesn't. I don't see how I can put it any clearer. And a problem you all seem to be ignoring is that even IF the wizard's list is so absolutely fantastic as to be worth sucking down -2 hps per level, bad fort, worse AC, more costly build, no recourse should your magic be ineffective other than to just run away, and greater spell selection versatility, the cleric with the magic domain can access the wizard's spell list all the same. All the cleric has to do is use wands and staves, and is just fine. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Shadow DM 05-15-04, 05:54 PM	Well I guess it is settled. The cleric has to be nerfed for sake of game balance. With all these obvious advantages wotc should get on this right away... *snicker*
WizO_Catoblepas 05-15-04, 06:20 PM	A couple of items: 1) Knock off the shouting. (typing in all capital letter or enlarged text) People can hear what you are saying in regular text. They may not agree, but they are reading it all the same. 2) Knock off attemping to get around the vulgar language filter. 3) Keep the posts polite and leave the sarcasm off the boards. If the above are not obeyed, then I'm closing the thread and sending out some unpleasant e-mails. With the official posts above aside, my follow-up comment is that I agree that the cleric spell list is not that far in power behind the arcane list. However, the typical cleric doesn't get to use most of them since he is using his slots to curing/removing disease/removing curse/restoring levels. And as I stated, it would be the kiss of death to give this option to the arcane spell caster since they would be left to burning their slots on these functions. Still, if you think that the cleric is still overpowering, just house-rule that the cleric can't spontaneously convert their spells to healing. If you put that limitation on the party cleric, I'll venture to say that the cleric isn't going to select all of the other spells that are similar to arcane spells. Just try it one time in your group and see what happens.
ManTimeForgot 05-15-04, 06:40 PM	What happens when clerics can't spontaneously cast cure spells? You get 2ed more or less. So we go back to non-cleric players whining and moaning :rolleyes: about "how come you don't prepare more healing spells?" and "My character almost died because you didn't prepare more healing spells..." God that was annoying. Your character didn't die did her, and even if he did I brought him back? See the problem is the people who whine when spontaneous curing gets taken away are the same people who don't ever play clerics. I actually have the balls to play a cleric every now and then, not just because the party needs it. But I do have to say that when people start treating me like I am their healing slave I get kinda miffed. I don't play clerics so that I can slave over your life points. Best idea my current group has had is to have clerics spontaneously cast their domain spells, and this seems to have worked out fine so far. You prepare a lot more cure spells than you would otherwise (unless you take the healing domain), and when you spontaneously cast your domain spells it means your healing ability goes down, which means that there is actually a decision to make about whether or not to spontaneously cast a spell or not. And for those of you who are like "but you are giving the cleric two epic feats..." The epic feat assumes that the cleric can already spontaneously cast cure spells which is arguably the best spontaneous casting one can get, thus worse case is its one epic feat for when a person takes the healing domain, and that epic feat isn't all that powerful to begin with. Of course I would take it a step further if it were all up to me (my current DM is powering up the other classes, and changing things to be more balanced so I think all things considered its ok) and remove the clerics war ability, and make domains much more pervasive. A cleric with the war domain would be much the same as the cleric is now. But a cleric with the hearth and family domain is going to be quite a bit different. I just wish that the clerics had as fleshed out of an existence as the druid does. Then I think everything would be ok with the cleric. The druid on the other hand needs a bit of a toning down, and some spiritual restrictions need to come back because that was what gave the druid flavor. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
antibelpas 05-15-04, 07:29 PM	Originally posted by ManTimeForgot Point out to me where on ANY thread it has been shown to within even a MODICUM of reasonable doubt that the cleric list is inferior to the wizard's spell list. Show me. Anywhere is fine. Oh, and while you are at it, try and fine one which actually provides evidence rather than just a bunch of wizard players in unison claiming that the wizard list is better. sigh, It has been shown and very reasonably not only on this thread but the "divine casters are fine" thread. You just refuse to accept what they say because its not want you want to here or believe. Please just re-read all the posts and you will see. And actually, I'm a cleric player and I believe that the wizard list is better. Its not just wizard characters claiming in unison....its a variety of intelligent people. Please just re-evaluate and see the truth.
Koga:The ninja trick 05-15-04, 07:37 PM	I did a little player's handbook reading and found.. Cleric's spell list is weaker then wizard/sorcerer's at starter levels. (Take into consideration I like my spells deadly, an evil cleric will be putting minor penalties to your best saves while the sorcerer is blasting you to dust with magic missles.) Middle levels, the cleric starts looking pretty good, with the right domians he could easily sway the arcanster's spell list and have additional goodies for being of a clergy. (Firewall and ice storm are a small price to pay to see poisen done a spell level earlier and all the neat bonuses granteed for being a cleric.) At the last few levels things start looking even again, wizard/sorcerer's cast better death spells, but clerics have more variety, bassically a wizard/sorcerer has to struggle to obtain the great power, where the cleric can have his cake and eat it too. Clerics when played smart will be constructively better, armor, weapons, better hit dice, WAY more special skills, a wide spell-list, the uses are endless. But he'll never be as good as the wizard/sorcerer in the spells department, as it should be. Cleric=Useful for the team. Wizard/Sorcerer=Useful for the individual. As much as The Koga would probably enjoy playing an evil cleric of no diety and burning all my feats in bonus domains so I could wield the forces of the elements like my play thing and command the living dead.. I'll be able to obtain what I want (The blaster mage stuff.) faster and more efficently as the arcane spellcaster, and anyway even if the evil cleric would be better at killing magically then the wizard/sorcerer I still have the problem of party members. Regardless if evil clerics can still prepare healers my power is limited now there, and my party will not be happy about that. Thus my use in the group is depleted and thus am not able to get away with nearly as much. I look at it like this.. As an evil cleric I have it all but am dependant on the love of my comrades. As a mage I can cast what I want when I want, and though am not as well off as the evil cleric, am alot more exsepted and funner to play. As a good cleric I'm matienance and to not do as I say would be bad for your health litterally, however I am deprived of the ungodly powers I wanted in the first place. So for The Koga, arcane caster is the way to go. Only because of social penalities involved otherwise. Sometimes the negative essence in our society is the only thing that binds the greater evils we don't see..
Thermanshs 05-15-04, 07:43 PM	Originally posted by antibelpas sigh, It has been shown and very reasonably not only on this thread but the "divine casters are fine" thread. You just refuse to accept what they say because its not want you want to here or believe. Please just re-read all the posts and you will see. Yeah,please do...and you also forgot to put both spell lists side by side to compare them...it would be like apples with watermelons...you don't need any previous experience to do this.Even my 5 year old bro could point me the differences between these two. Wizo:Sorry for the shouting but I beleive few men in here really pay attention to my key points.They just pick all the stuff they could turn against and go on...
Thermanshs 05-15-04, 07:46 PM	Originally posted by Koga:The ninja trick I'll be able to obtain what I want (The blaster mage stuff.) faster and more efficently as the arcane spellcaster...bla...bla... Is blasting things up the only benefit you can discern in an arcane spell list?
ManTimeForgot 05-15-04, 08:14 PM	Over the course of this thread antibelpas has only pointed to "blaster" spells as proof positive that the wizard is more powerful than the cleric. Aside from that the Koga has stated on more than one occassion that that is all he is interested in from a caster. So should the Koga be at all concerned with more than this? No because that is all that is being discussed. No where on this thread has there been any kind of reasonable analysis of the two lists. Go through and compare all the travel spells, all the buff spells, all the defensive spells, all the instant kills, all the damage dealers, all the utility spells, and all the niche (like charm person; things that require you to be doing something other than for the progress of the group. Binding is also another one of this category. Compare to the summon spells which are utility spells because they can provide an ally in combat, allow group to progress, and do other things. Whereas to use charm person or binding you have to halt the progress of the game) spells. Do this and come to the conclusion that the wizard's list is far superior, and then talk. As it stands I have done so on previou threadsy, seen it done on previous threads, and as near as I can tell there has never been any kind of concensus on this topic, even on this or the other thread, that the wizard spell list is fundamentally better. I see a bunch of people who point to good wizard spells, and then a bunch of people who point to good cleric spells. If someone actually archived it the "Priests of the Coast" thread from a while back was several thousand pages of just such a debate and it DID actually go spell by spell to analyze and compare the classes. So I think you will find it a lot harder to convince me that there is no discrepancy by sighing and claiming that your point has been proven even though you are pointing at non-existent evidence. No where in this thread or any other has it been shown that the wizard list is far superior. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
castlemike 05-15-04, 09:09 PM	Originally posted by WizO_Catoblepas With the official posts above aside, my follow-up comment is that I agree that the cleric spell list is not that far in power behind the arcane list. However, the typical cleric doesn't get to use most of them since he is using his slots to curing/removing disease/removing curse/restoring levels. And as I stated, it would be the kiss of death to give this option to the arcane spell caster since they would be left to burning their slots on these functions. I don't like seeing the divine and arcane classes evaluated solely by their spell lists as that implies they are equal across the boards in most or all other respects. Each class gets certain benefits while some get more than others and individual preference determine how class benefits are weighted personally. I agree with WizO regarding the balance between the two classe's spell lists. Each class has some gem spells. I acknowledge that at lower levels the Divine spell list lags the arcane spell list and overall has fewer combat spells. IMO that can be remedied or addressed by the core rules with a little gold and a successful spellcraft check for divine caster PCs which generally the arcane caster PCs are prohibited from doing in return as far as healing type magic. So don't stop comparing the classes on that sole point. Slightly off topic but since it's been mentioned several times on the board. I'm a proponent of a minor arcane style or type of healing which is inferior to divine healing. Wizards are supposed to be smart. (I find it odd at 3.5 a wizard can change a creature's form but can provide no equivalent of direct limited healing other than polymorph (which has been around for a long time granting a side effect healing benefit) other than waiting for limited wish or wish from the PHB and some wizard doesn't create a generic spell to replicate that effect solely for emergencies and those times not travelling with a divine caster). The "healing very indirectly" via game mechanics as a side effect more or less via Polymorph: As the subject regains hitpoints as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage or allow other benefits of rest like relearning spells). Put it in this context how many groups forget to add the healing they get from the polymorph spell when they are injured? If the non wizards note of the effect surely the wizards do. This side effect would make a useful spell which isn't going to replace divine healing. I would like to see this side effect as an Official Level Two (Usable once a day only) (Akin to ability enhancing spells) or Level Three Spell (Usable more than once a day, change form like gaseous form) something a wizard could scribe an emergency scroll for or make a emergency potion or wand for but definitely inferior to divine healing with game mechanics. Just a few thoughts.
beaver1024 05-16-04, 02:00 AM	Originally posted by WizO_Catoblepas With the official posts above aside, my follow-up comment is that I agree that the cleric spell list is not that far in power behind the arcane list. However, the typical cleric doesn't get to use most of them since he is using his slots to curing/removing disease/removing curse/restoring levels. And as I stated, it would be the kiss of death to give this option to the arcane spell caster since they would be left to burning their slots on these functions. That is only true the cleric is the only healer in the party and/or if the cleric didn't take any item creation magic to help with the healing burden. What happens if the healing burden is shared around (party has paladin instead of fighter and druid instead of Wizard as well as the Cleric). What then can be said of the balance of cleric if they have a chance to cast their offensive spells? One cannot generally say that the sorc/wiz spell list is so much better than the cleric spell list because it can be shown that in the areas that arcane casters are strong in, ie blasting, clerics have equally as potent weapons. Additionally clerics have access to the best arcane spells through domains. Hence even if the arcane list can be proven to be categorically superior, clerics are still overpowered because they have access to the "superior" list through their domains and Miracle. At best one can say that the 2 spell lists are equal with the sorc/wiz being left out in the cold when duplicating effects from the cleric's spell list. Given that the sorc/wiz spell list and the cleric spell list are equal, then can the cleric's multitude of other benefits be justified? The Battle Sorcerer from Unearth Arcana is an example where the designers thought that the sorc/wiz spell list isn't that much better than the cleric spell list. The BS looses 9 spells from an already limited spells known list in order to gain only a fraction of the power of the cleric's non spell list benefits. If sorc/wiz spell list is so much better than the cleric spell lists shouldn't the BS be getting much more benefits for the sacrifice?
beaver1024 05-16-04, 02:13 AM	Originally posted by Shadow DM Well, first I wanted to correct someone. Clerics cannot get Prismatic Sphere through miracle. Well unless they wanna fork out 5000 xp...so in theory they could I suppose, but that is just crazy. And wish can do the same thing. Ugg so in theory a wizards gets all the cleric spells too. My god maybe they are both unbalanced classes. I mean lets face it, no one actually fights at high level, it is all just crazy casters in limbo somewhere hucking magic at each other... Prismatic Sphere can be obtained through Sun domain and the Magic Domain (scrolls/staves of Prismatic Sphere). Wish most certainly cannot do the same thing. At best Wish can duplicate up to 6th level cleric spells whilst Miracle and duplicate up to 7th level arcane spells. Most importantly Wish costs 5000xp per use regardless of what the use whilst Miracle does not have the xp cost for the duplication use. Miracle retains it's other spectacular uses but with the xp cost. If the sorc/wiz spell list is so superior how is it that clerics have such an easy access to that list whilst sorc/wiz have an huge cost to pay to access the cleric list?
Shadow DM 05-16-04, 07:25 AM	Well alright, I read up and you are correct. HOWEVER, miracle does not give your dm the "i get to screw greedy players over" flag that wish does. So...you can use wish for more proving that arcane spell casters are obviosly better. Plus, the magic domain only lets you use spells as if you were half your level in wizard. So even at 20 a level 10 wizard would not have the easiest time using a prismatic sphere scroll. Now alright I will give you the sun domain. However if you pick this domain you limit your other options that you might have gotten if you had chosen a more powerful domain. So neither is better, but wizard does not have to work as hard to have cool spells. *cough cough* timestop *cough cough*
Darth K'Trava 05-16-04, 08:00 PM	Originally posted by Shadow DM Well alright, I read up and you are correct. HOWEVER, miracle does not give your dm the "i get to screw greedy players over" flag that wish does. So...you can use wish for more proving that arcane spell casters are obviosly better. Usually our DM in the game where I have a cleric who can cast Miracle, I had to have a very damn good reason why before it was granted. Granted, the only two different occasions that I used it was to fix anti-magic zones (Faerun world) and resurrect our native outsider fighter back from the dead.... And I had to compose a frickin' prayer to my cleric's deity to do so. Tell me that's not 'screwin' one over'...... :smirk:
beaver1024 05-16-04, 09:04 PM	Originally posted by Shadow DM Well alright, I read up and you are correct. HOWEVER, miracle does not give your dm the "i get to screw greedy players over" flag that wish does. So...you can use wish for more proving that arcane spell casters are obviosly better. Plus, the magic domain only lets you use spells as if you were half your level in wizard. So even at 20 a level 10 wizard would not have the easiest time using a prismatic sphere scroll. Now alright I will give you the sun domain. However if you pick this domain you limit your other options that you might have gotten if you had chosen a more powerful domain. So neither is better, but wizard does not have to work as hard to have cool spells. *cough cough* timestop *cough cough* By the rules, you don't get screwed over (as in you lose the spell and get a bad effect), your request is only refused. Unlike wish where you not only lose 5000xp you also get a bad effect. The request is only refused if goes against the deity's alignment/nature. If you're doing things against your deity's nature/alignment having a Miracle spell refused is the least of your problems. Hence unless your cleric is doing things against his alignment/deity a Miracle spell is much less likely to screw over the caster than a Wish. It might be a bit more difficult to use scrolls using the magic domain but staves have no such restrictions. The Sun domain itself is not a bad domain it has many good spells as well as an excellent granted power. You want timestop as cleric why not try out the Trickery domain. Not only do you get timestop, you get invisibility and polymorph any object as well all of them signature wiz/sorc spells. Do you realise that wizards have to spend time and money in addition to finding the spells in the first place in order to add it to their spell book? If the campaign doesn't allow it, the wizard may never learn prismatic sphere or timestop if they didn't select those spells as they level up. If they do then they are giving up other spell choices they otherwise would have taken. Unlike the cleric, unless the DM outright bans the appropriate domains, will usually get the list of spells they want. In an average campaign, it is more difficult for a wizard to acquire all the spell they want than a cleric. Of course it is impossible for the poor sorc.
castlemike 05-16-04, 09:27 PM	Much as I like sorcerers and wizards I traded in my sorcerer's familiar for the #319 Dragon Darksun "Erudite" and a psi crystal. The Erudite rocks basically works like an improved wizard-sorcerer hybrid. Took the best of the sorcerer and wizard classes and except for losing the familiar improved on them mechanically giving them psionics instead of arcane power. The Erudite doesn't need a spell book, gets two new spells/powers a level for free, can learn new powers to add to known powers for 50GP a level (much cheaper than spells), gets better casting efficiency than a sorcerer, wizard or divine caster, gets variant more efficient powers like energy ball at 4th your choice of energy which ignores Minor Globe, gets feats like a wizard. Gets force missile 3-18 at 2nd level instead of magic missile. On top of that dupes many divine ablilites IMO including manifesting powers unaffected by armor but have to buy the proficiency with another class or a feat. Can use 36 powers a day with daily 4 power usages per level at level 20 (But can know many more in comparison to a sorcerer). With 343 power points could cast four first level powers 343 times, or cast four second level powers 114 times a day. After all those improvements to the hybrid psionic erudite (sorcerer-wizard) I'd still rate it after third but really closing the gap after a Cleric or Druid mechanically.