Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fencerboy 04-09-07, 01:57 PM	I'm considering playing a monk in an upcoming campaign, and I would like to hear your opinions. At the first few low levels, they seem to really suck. Once you get higher though, their value becomes greater with every passing moment. Are they worth starting from 1st level, or are monks one of those classes that is only good to start from 5th level and up?
leomunds_assistant 04-09-07, 02:16 PM	I personally enjoy playing a monk from any level. Paired wiht some good feats in the beginning they can be a very unique and fun class to play. I will have to dig through my sheets to find what feats i get but when i find it i will tell you:D
leomunds_assistant 04-09-07, 02:26 PM	well cant find my sheets :( so if you have a decent stength or dex i would reccomeng getting TWF along with weapon finesse at 3rd for a serious amount of attacks paired up with flurry. If you are human and have another feat i would get roundabout kick from Complete warrior. I believe that it does an extra d10 on crits when fighting unarmed. Fun wise i always enjoyed them and went unarmed and didn't use monk weapons. If you could talk your dm into letting you have gloves that can be enchanted to improve unarmed strikes. Having no armor i always enjoyed the extra gold to spend on other magical goodies. Hope i was some help
Platstud 04-09-07, 02:31 PM	Fun wise i always enjoyed them and went unarmed and didn't use monk weapons. If you could talk your dm into letting you have gloves that can be enchanted to improve unarmed strikes. Hope i was some help Scorpion Kama from MIC is a must-have as far as I'm concerned. It's a +1 Kama that allows a monk to use his unarmed strike damage instead of the weapon damage.
leomunds_assistant 04-09-07, 02:34 PM	Thats pretty cool i will have to look into that, i planned on making a monk soon anyways. Thanks for that:D
Acrid 04-09-07, 02:35 PM	I would suggest going with Vow of Poverty for a monk, Its just awesome
Terazul 04-09-07, 02:36 PM	I'm considering playing a monk in an upcoming campaign, and I would like to hear your opinions. At the first few low levels, they seem to really suck. Once you get higher though, their value becomes greater with every passing moment. Ive actually found it to be quite the opposite in my cases. At low levels you tend to do ok, since your attack bonus isnt that far off from the other melee crew, a little extra movement thanks to your speed bonus, and youve got a few points to your AC bonus. Later on though, you just get a bunch of semi random mystical abilities that don't seem to add up to their value for the level you recieve them. Quivering Palm. Oh hey! A Save or Die! Too bad it's once a friggin week, while the <random casting class> has been doing it 3 times a day a few levels ago. And I can talk to animals and plants! Situationally useful. The immunity to poison and disease value is based on how often your DM makes it an issue (and even then, usually not too much of a problem anyway). And sure my fists are magic/adamantine/lawful, but Im still gonna have problems with DR, not to mention that with 3/4 BAB and serious MAD, Flurry of Blows just equals "Hey! I get to miss another 2 times!". Oh yeah, there's always the whole Vow of Poverty thing, but that can be pushing it, depending on how your DM is (You better be REALLY good). Not to mention it just makes you obscenely great at low levels, but later on, you could get the same (or better) effects from the items you could have been buying. So same net result. And I know I left out a few other class features, but that's what it summed up to myself as in terms of mechanics. However, that's to say I didnt have FUN playing the monk (after going through PHB2 and other books to grab fiery fists and other feats. Oh the fun of throwing an energy ball through a window.), but more often than not Id go for a different, less supernatural, more "lets break stuff" variant you could probably find around here(though it's completely doable with the current monk as well, just takes more work, I guess). My 2 cp.
ChaoticAwsome 04-09-07, 02:51 PM	MONKSAREAMAZING!!!!:dancin: I have always loved the monk character. fun to roleplay, doesn't need to by weapons, ENTIRE body is a weapon (useful when evryones weapons are confiscated), you get better AC from dex and wis, and you get one free AC every 5 levels or so, you can use tons of diffrent cool tactical fighting moves like getting improved trip, with combat expertise, then you can trip your opponet, immediately attack them while their prone because of improved trip, then when they get up, you can AoO for as high is your DEX modifier. Plus they can run and jump far. :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk:
ChaoticAwsome 04-09-07, 02:54 PM	:monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :dancin:
Sleepwalker13666 04-09-07, 02:58 PM	I've found monks balance well with the other melee classes, I prefer other classes but you can depend on the monk to his job. A lot of people will suggest the vow of poverty, but I think the monk does better without it, ...now if you play a fighter with VoP. :D
starfire311 04-09-07, 02:58 PM	the problem with monks are people's preconceived notions of them. Monks are not front-liners, monks are skirmishers. everyone thinks wow my monk can do a ton of damge with an unarmed strike at level 20, guess what, the fighter has been doing more damage since level 1. Monks are great for taking out enemy casters, but they don't want to get int he thick of it. And anyone that says VoP is good for a monk, doesn't understand that monks need their gear, and VoP is not awesome, any feat that makes you weaker for taking it does not make it awesome. What VoP lets you do is fulfill a character concept without sucking. Monks are weak melee fighters, they make up for it in mobility and caster kilers.
countbubba 04-09-07, 03:09 PM	monks can be amazing melee fighters if you make them right. i've heard Vow of Poverty numerous times now, and i wholeheartedly agree. in fact, as long as we're in the realm of exalted monks, go ahead and take the vows of Nonviolence and Peace, as well. have your monk deal only nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, and you'll be all set. your armor class will be unbeatable. monks do tend to be less powerful at lower levels, but i wouldn't discount them completely. they're still capable combatants. at higher levels, they can be nigh unstoppable, especially if you know what feats to take, etc. look into Fighting Styles from Oriental Adventures. I particularly like Empty Hand mastery. take the right feats, and your unarmed damage is as if you were one size category larger. combine that with an armor class of 54 at 11th level, and you've got yourself a nonlethal combat machine.
leomunds_assistant 04-09-07, 03:13 PM	care to explain the 54 ac more???? :OMG! :edit: sorry dont have book of exalted deeds
countbubba 04-09-07, 03:17 PM	I can't exactly remember how he pulled it off, but a friend of mine was a level 11 or 12 exalted monk with the vows of poverty and peace, and he had an armor class of 54. he had an insane dex and wisdom bonus, both of which helped (so races are important to consider). also, vow of peace gave him +6, and vow of poverty gave him a pretty significant bonus, as well. but again, i can't remember exactly how he pulled it off. i'll try to find out.
leomunds_assistant 04-09-07, 03:21 PM	Alright thanks but i dont think that will be neccesary. i tend to play more of a hack and slash style so vow of peace does squat for me. I would be interested in feat selection though.
Scion of Coldshard 04-09-07, 03:22 PM	I really enjoyed my warforged monk with his battlefist, improved natural attack feat, low strength, and karmic strike. My AC was abysmal most of the time, except when I got into trouble and it was suddenly the highest in the party. Great character, lots of fun!
Guy42 04-09-07, 03:28 PM	Unless you really want to go with the good ascetic monk for character, don't go with Vow of Poverty. Monk's can benefit a lot from magic items, a lot more than VoP can give, items give them the ability to get haste, to fly(pure monk with VoP can't deal with flying at all really), to better enchant their weapons(and use better weapons in general, though unarmed fighting is win and awesome), and get better stat boosts. Vow of Non-violence and Vow of Peace will force your entire party to cooperate, non-violence forces a penalty on any of your allies that kills someone within 100 feet of you, and you can't let your allies just kill people and turn a blind eye, that's not what being exalted is, and it will force you to lose your vow forever. Vow of Peace isn't as bad, butyou need non-violence to get it, just remember, you can't harm any living being(said to the extremes of those with it using a strainer to drink without risk of killing small bugs), except by nonlethal damage, and you must take any living enemy hostage. Unless your character concept calls for this and your group is willing to bide by it, stay clear. Also, Sacred Fist is much better if you get your DM to allow a self-carved holy symbol, take a few levels in cleric and pick up the travel domain, then you can fly, teleport, and cast buff spells, making up for all you lose with VoP pretty much. On regular monks, just make sure you realize with a d8 hitdie and all that movement, they won't be heavy hitters or tanks. Monks are trip/stun machines, you can grapple too if you like, but pick it up as a regular feat, stunning fist at level 1 is way too good to pass up with it's normally +8 BAB requirement, pick up Pain Touch too, from complete warrior, it's almost a necessity for stunning monks, then eventually get Ki Straps to boost the DC of it and you'll be stunning the crap out of things. Get a Guisarme for reach AoO tripping(even with two-handed, monks can still use their legs for unarmed strikes), and pick up improved trip at level 6, even without proficiency it'll work well enough. Pick up Freezing the Lifeblood when you can later on, paralyzing for multiple rounds is too good even if only on humanoids. Grab Elusive Target(complete warrior) + Combat Expertise if you have the stats to(monks already need 4 high stats and Expertise takes 13 INT), it makes for some crazy trips across the battlefield once you get high AC. I'd reccomend spring attack too, staying in toe-to-toe against enemies can be suicide for a monk, just pop in long enough to stun/trip and run, or stay in for a flurry on a stun if you have Pain Touch, since they can't do anything but move on the following round anyway, then get away. Just remember, you are not a melee tank, you are a tactical martial artist, use your abilities to your advantage - stun, trip, own face. :cool:
camway 04-09-07, 03:28 PM	Putting it simply- no they aren't Every monk ability gives them complete and total power over what costs approximately .5-900 GP to fix. Thus at 20th level when the character has millions it doesn't matter. Maybe give it full bab, better attacks or special attacks with more speed then maybe it would be but now its just a meat shield with low hp
leomunds_assistant 04-09-07, 03:39 PM	Really? would you care to explain where i can get all of their stuff for that cheap. :SARCASTIC: monks are a lot better than low health meat shields. They make decent assassins walking in unarmed, scouts and much more. And like a previous poster said stun, trip, own face
Lord_Komar 04-09-07, 03:45 PM	Personally I love monks, you can spend money you get towards pumping up your ac so you rarely get hit. with vow of poverty and the right feats and prestige class a monk can become a very formidable character
leomunds_assistant 04-09-07, 03:48 PM	Personally I love monks, you can spend money you get towards pumping up your ac so you rarely get hit. with vow of poverty and the right feats and prestige class a monk can become a very formidable character I thought you couldnt own magic items with vow of poverty? But overall agreed.:D
starfire311 04-09-07, 03:48 PM	Personally I love monks, you can spend money you get towards pumping up your ac so you rarely get hit. with vow of poverty and the right feats and prestige class a monk can become a very formidable character you do realize that with vow of poverty, you are not allowed to spend your money towads pumpiing up your AC. Why, are so many people suggesting, that the OP gimp himself by taking a worthless feat like VoP.
Guy42 04-09-07, 03:51 PM	Think he means without VoP, though you do need to donate any share of fund that you would be getting to charity, so it's buying in some sense. But yeah, they do make good scouts as well, stick a lot of ranks in Hide, Move Silently, Listen, and Spot, great for sending ahead with their high mobility. Edit: It's only gimping in the sense that you don't get a lot of cool abilities, you can still be competant with VoP. Though, as said above, I'd only take it with a Sacred Fist + Travel Domain, which isn't pure monk. Pure monk suffers a bit too much from lack of abilities and lack of spells to compensate.
Tony Vargas 04-09-07, 03:54 PM	Monks can be workable from 1st level on, as long as you play to thier strengths and the campaign is amenable to them. From the campian, you need high stats - the Monk really needs WIS, DEX, CON, and STR, and skimping on INT hurts because of the nice skill list. Of course, you can do odd tricks like the high-STR monk that largely ignores his AC and belts out massive-damage flurries, or the low-STR monk who depends on insane ACs and saves to annoy his enemies. But, in general, if you're going to play a Monk, you hope for fairly generous stat-generation. If you're playing 25pt buy, look at other classes. Wealth & Magic are also campaign considerations. A game that's very low wealth disfavors the Monk less than it does other classes. One that's very low magic doesn't exactly help non-casters of any stripe. One that features high wealth and readily available customized items favors the Monk somewhat. Playing a monk effectively means remembering that, even though your best attacks are melee, you're not really a frontliner. You can't just step into the warriors combat boots. Instead, you can use high movement & Tumble to melee foes who didn't expect to be in melee so soon, and then Stun or Grapple them, or to move into flanking positions with the frontliners or rogue. You use that same mobility to extricate yourself when too much damage heads your way. Monks also have a nice skill list, and can be decent scounts (hide/sneak spot/listen), and thier high saves give them a better than usual shot at surviving any traps they set off - though they don't replace a rogue or ranger well, they can suplement them very well.
leomunds_assistant 04-09-07, 03:54 PM	you do realize that with vow of poverty, you are not allowed to spend your money towads pumpiing up your AC. Why, are so many people suggesting, that the OP gimp himself by taking a worthless feat like VoP. Yeah thought so, vow of poverty sucks... what fun is a poor monk without magic items anyway. Anybody ever try to make a :mrt: type monk? If so please tell!!
Nexis 04-09-07, 04:00 PM	Wow I really seem to be going against the grain here. Monks are, hands down, the worst characters in the game IMHO. I’m not saying the flavor isn’t very cool, just that the monk has no ability to assist his party in anything remotely useful. People keep claiming that the monk is a "skirmisher", how does that help the party? All he is doing is getting small hits, and sometimes missing with his 3/4 BaB, in, while the other classes do things do things that are important. I’ve seen arguments that monk are also "Mage killers" but any mage that knows what they're doing has a contingency for teleporting when grappled, and can pierce spell resistance on everything but a natural 20. The point is that monks offer nothing to a party besides mediocre fighting and a bunch of useless mystical abilities. If you want to play an unarmed person so badly, just play a fighter with the Improved unarmed and Superior unarmed feats. And yes I did just suggest playing a fighter, monks are that bad
DarkRhystar 04-09-07, 04:02 PM	Why, are so many people suggesting, that the OP gimp himself by taking a worthless feat like VoP. Because half of the people posting don't know what they're talking about. I'm not a fan of Monks. I have never been impressed by them. Most of what they can do becomes useless later and the things that don't are often better done by other classes.
Tony Vargas 04-09-07, 04:09 PM	Wow I really seem to be going against the grain here. Monks are, hands down, the worst characters in the game IMHO.Your opinion is not that rare. Niether is the 'Monks are overpowered' opinion. The class is just delicately balanced, and it 'breaks' - high or low - depending on campaign specifics and how the player tries to use/expoit it. I’m not saying the flavor isn’t very coolMeh, the Monk's flavor is David Caradine as Quae Chang Caine. just that the monk has no ability to assist his party in anything remotely useful.The Monk doesn't fill any of the 4 iconic roles well on his own, it is more of a suplemental 5th wheel of a class. It can contribute, just not in a traditional fighter or rogue sort of way. People keep claiming that the monk is a "skirmisher", how does that help the party? All he is doing is getting small hits, and sometimes missing with his 3/4 BaB, in, while the other classes do things do things that are important.Tactically, having someone able to move faster than the enemy, and move through the enemy's front lines more or less at will gives the party a very real advantage. The monk /can/ hit hard with a flurry, or decisively with a Stunning Blow, so his offensive actions can be important - he just can't afford to buckled down and trade damage like a barb or fighter. I don't know if it's exactly skirmishing, but a Monk can also manage good stealth skills (and no ACP), so, he can accompany a rogue or ranger as backup on scouting missions. The Monk's durrability (relative to the d6 hps, one-good-save rogue) and high movent mean that even if the scouting mission goes horribly wrong, he has a good chance to get back to the rest of the party with the bad news. I’ve seen arguments that monk are also "Mage killers" but any mage that knows what they're doing has a contingency for teleporting when grappled, and can pierce spell resistance on everything but a natural 20. Remember, this guys going up from 1st. It'll be some time before contingent teleports become an issue.
Thorn_Monk 04-09-07, 04:10 PM	I find the monk to be a fun class to play (and, ultimately, if you are having fun, it is more than worth the cost of a character sheet). If you're looking for a powerful class, however, this isn't it. Among the problems: 1) MAD. They need STR, WIS, DEX and CON. If you want to benefit from their skills, you need INT too. 2) Skills that don't synergize well. Flurry of blows? Great idea, but not so hot with medium BAB (hence the term "flurry of misses"). Extra movement speed? Can be useful, but if you're moving around a lot you won't have that full attack action with which to use flurry of blows. 3) Equipment costs. VoP debate aside, if you want equipment for your monk it will cost you. You need AC as much as the next guy, yet you can only invest in very expensive bracers and rings. The weapon list is short and unique, so prepare to pay more for them too. 4) Lots of flavorful, but limited use skills. Sure, monks get something at every level, but you might go an entire level or two without ever using it. Slow fall? Immunity to disease/poison? Fun when those situations arise, but situational. 5) No well-defined niche. There is nothing that a monk does that another class can't do better (in terms of class role). Rogues and scouts are better scouts, fighters are better tanks, etc. About the only niche a monk fills better than others is mage-slayer (fast movement, high saves, some resistances, and stunning blow). One other problem for me, at least: I found that I like the IDEA of the monk better than the actual application of one in-game. I imagined this fists-of-fury type of damage-dealer with a lot of neat abilities. Sure, sometimes the neat abilities come in handy, but the rest of the time you're doing basically one of two things: you are either spring attacking in and out to execute a single special maneuver (stunning blow, trip, etc.), or you are standing there performing a flurry of blows. Both are good choices in combat, but it gets repetitive. If you're OK with repetitive, go with a fighter and dish out more damage. If you're not, go with something that give more real options in combat like a cleric or something out of the ToB. If, however, you are simply looking for something that does some of the same roles differently and in a colorful package, a monk may be for you. I gathered from the tone of your post, however, that you are looking for some power too. If so, I'd recommend you look elsewhere.
Guy42 04-09-07, 04:13 PM	Wow I really seem to be going against the grain here. Monks are, hands down, the worst characters in the game IMHO. I’m not saying the flavor isn’t very cool, just that the monk has no ability to assist his party in anything remotely useful. People keep claiming that the monk is a "skirmisher", how does that help the party? All he is doing is getting small hits, and sometimes missing with his 3/4 BaB, in, while the other classes do things do things that are important. I’ve seen arguments that monk are also "Mage killers" but any mage that knows what they're doing has a contingency for teleporting when grappled, and can pierce spell resistance on everything but a natural 20. The point is that monks offer nothing to a party besides mediocre fighting and a bunch of useless mystical abilities. If you want to play an unarmed person so badly, just play a fighter with the Improved unarmed and Superior unarmed feats. And yes I did just suggest playing a fighter, monks are that bad Monks ARE skirmishers. Yes, a prepared spellcaster will own a monk, but what doesn't a prepared spellcaster own that isn't another equally prepared spellcaster? Monks still stand the best chance in melee against a mage, because they can get to them fast and attempt to stun(grappling is dum ur dum), mage's don't have high fort saves, so you stun them, pretty much inevitably with ki straps, then they can't cast for two turns, which gives you and your party time to take down what would otherwise own your dudes with pew pew magics. SR doesn't really matter, though I have thought up a cool build with Monk/Tattooed monk that gets SR 37 due to PHoenix Tattoo and Diamon Soul, which means at level 20 a caster needs to roll a 17 or higher to get by SR, which is fairly nice. Monks are also the only characters that can take real advantage of stunning, thanks to 1 attempt per level instead of per 4, so they can be stunmonkeys, with Pain Touch and Ki Straps, they can render people useless for 2 turns with great consistancy. Freezing the Lifeblood later is just gravy. They can scout too, not as well as a rogue or ranger, with all those skill points they get, but having 4 + Int isn't terrible, and getting hide, move silently, listen, and spot as class skills alone points out that even if they aren't the best at it, they can do it. Monks are far from worthless, they might not stand up quite as high as spellcasters or even rogues, but they can contribute to a party just fine, much better than fighter(as they can do things with skills AND combat.) Edit: If you're not, go with something that give more real options in combat like a cleric or something out of the ToB. Or he could mesh cleric and monk and go sacred fist. Monk 2/Cleric 4/Sacred Fist 10/Cleric 4 is a nice setup, gives you spells for combat options, and though you can't use any weapons, you still get improved unarmed damage. 18/20 caster levels too, just ignore the sacred fist table and go by the text, which says you get a caster level EVERY level, text trumps tables from what I hear. See if you can get your DM to allow abilities on an amulet of mighty fists, or if you can use the 3.0 Savage Species Necklace of Natural Attacks, which is basically a cheaper AoMF that states that it lets you add abilities, stick Metalline on there to get by any material DR if it gives you trouble.
leomunds_assistant 04-09-07, 04:15 PM	Well i happen to have to play solo with the Dm a lot and a monk seems to fill that role pretty well. Maybe not the best group member they make good infiltrators, especially if the others aren't skill oriented. And the difference is that monk isn't a melee class, so a fighter would be a better melee class. If the monk picks his fight well, and does everything else the fighter cant do(skills, assissanations, skirmishing) he completely outshines the fighter. Thinking about, tripping and stunning would make almost every other melee classes life easier. Lower Ac=better hit chance. Disarm and hold weapon in off hand, possibly toss to the main melee if it is good and well the big bad boss has nothing now.
teshen 04-09-07, 05:04 PM	Unless you really want to go with the good ascetic monk for character, don't go with Vow of Poverty. Monk's can benefit a lot from magic items, a lot more than VoP can give, items give them the ability to get haste, to fly(pure monk with VoP can't deal with flying at all really), to better enchant their weapons(and use better weapons in general, though unarmed fighting is win and awesome), and get better stat boosts. . . Yes. Agreeing so far... but monks tend to have to pay more for their stuff since a lot of it is in the 'wrong' slot... so you do just as well to get custom stuff. Vow of Non-violence and Vow of Peace will force your entire party to cooperate, non-violence forces a penalty on any of your allies that kills someone within 100 feet of you, and you can't let your allies just kill people and turn a blind eye, that's not what being exalted is, and it will force you to lose your vow forever. Vow of Peace isn't as bad, butyou need non-violence to get it, just remember, you can't harm any living being(said to the extremes of those with it using a strainer to drink without risk of killing small bugs), except by nonlethal damage, and you must take any living enemy hostage. Unless your character concept calls for this and your group is willing to bide by it, stay clear. . . emphasis mine Even paladins can atone... I don't like how they handle alignments even more dogmatically than your core D&D rules... but I suppose that could just be personal preference... but again, the extreme doesn't make sense to me... since I usually look at shades of gray. On regular monks, just make sure you realize with a d8 hitdie and all that movement, they won't be heavy hitters or tanks. Monks are trip/stun machines, you can grapple too if you like, but pick it up as a regular feat, stunning fist at level 1 is way too good to pass up with it's normally +8 BAB requirement, pick up Pain Touch too, from complete warrior, it's almost a necessity for stunning monks, then eventually get Ki Straps to boost the DC of it and you'll be stunning the crap out of things. Get a Guisarme for reach AoO tripping(even with two-handed, monks can still use their legs for unarmed strikes), and pick up improved trip at level 6, even without proficiency it'll work well enough. Pick up Freezing the Lifeblood when you can later on, paralyzing for multiple rounds is too good even if only on humanoids. Grab Elusive Target(complete warrior) + Combat Expertise if you have the stats to(monks already need 4 high stats and Expertise takes 13 INT), it makes for some crazy trips across the battlefield once you get high AC. I'd reccomend spring attack too, staying in toe-to-toe against enemies can be suicide for a monk, just pop in long enough to stun/trip and run, or stay in for a flurry on a stun if you have Pain Touch, since they can't do anything but move on the following round anyway, then get away. Just remember, you are not a melee tank, you are a tactical martial artist, use your abilities to your advantage - stun, trip, own face. :cool: I would suggest to the OP that unless you absolutely need mobility for some PrC your tumble check will work better to prevent AoO than mobility... And while speaking of skills, never underestimate the power of hide and move silently... as a monk, you can make good use of them. Getting surprise and getting your stunning in against some opponents can really help out. To handle some of your DR problems, consider an neckless of natural attacks. It's just like the amulet of mighty fists but you can add weapon enchants like valorous or wounding or metalline... Or if you don't mind missing out on some of the odder higher level monk abilities go Kensai from Complete Warrior and enchant your unarmed strike cheaply. Tripping is of less utility at higher levels with flying and larger opponents. Consider either multiclassing with something that will give you buffs to overcome some of these problems... like cleric then sacred fist as Guy suggested or go monk and some psionic prc that will work, like fist of zuoden or the feat Tashalatora (from Secrets of Sarlona) that lets you stack monk and a chosen psionic class for some monk features. If you find that you need more skill points or are favoring something that uses intelligence (like a monk/wizard combo) pick up kung fu genius (from Dragon Compendium) as a feat or carmendine monk (from Champions of Valor) which will make your wisdom based monk features run off intelligence. A lot of the Ascetic feats that allow monk + something else can be really good if you know what you want to get out of it... I have to say, though, that monks are flavorful, but a little on the downside of power. Plan ahead, try to play smart, and eek out everything you can out of your racial abilities and feats... :D
Guy42 04-09-07, 05:15 PM	Even paladins can atone... I don't like how they handle alignments even more dogmatically than your core D&D rules... but I suppose that could just be personal preference... but again, the extreme doesn't make sense to me... since I usually look at shades of gray. That's the problem with the vows, you can't atone, you break them, you lose them and that feat slot forever. And the whole point of exalted is that you are playing a good character without grey area - there is no slaying evil simply because it is evil, you are to forgive an enemy that surrenders, you are to show mercy to all, and with the vows, it just adds to what you can and cannot do, especially non-violence. You can't just say "this isn't good, but I have to do it anyway!" that would lose your exalted status. At least by RAW, which can create some incredibly stupid situations, hopefully if you do play an exalted character your DM won't be too uptight about it, unless you take non-violence/peace, which pretty much requires them to or negates any drawbacks of those. I would suggest to the OP that unless you absolutely need mobility for some PrC your tumble check will work better to prevent AoO than mobility... Well, mobility is also a prerequisite for Elusive Target, which has tactical options, the third of which is pure win and awesome against ground enemies, especially if you can run across the field with high AC and knock over 3 or so foes. Spring Attack is just nice because it allows you to run in, attempt a stun or trip/stun and if you happen to fail, you can get right back out, if not, stick in and flurry next turn, then get out of there. It's not all about avoiding AoOs, the movement after the attack is great when you mainly want to get in to do a quick trip/stun and get to to let your other melee guys get in on a vulnerable opponent, and you can quickly get to the next.
teshen 04-09-07, 05:19 PM	That reminds me... If your DM doesn't treat poisons as inherently evil, and you take enough levels in monk that you're immune (or you've got a high enough fortitude save that you don't care...), then you might want to look up the rules for poisons, sink some ranks into craft (poison) and go to town with contact/injury poisons. Just a thought...
Guy42 04-09-07, 05:28 PM	By exalted rules, they are evil. Exalted have their own poisons though, called afflictions and ravaged, which are exactly like poisons anyway, so it's pretty dumb. But touch of golden ice is pretty cool, dex damage to evil enemies with any attack from a natural part of your body. For normal monks though, poison shurikens can be nice, especially with the whole stealth thing.
dragynson1 04-09-07, 07:02 PM	as a side note their is no reason to go past level 12 with monk if you want to melee. improved natural attack, superior unarmed strike, monks belt. 4d8 damage with unarmed attacks 14k and 2 feats spent. and if you allow monks tattoo 50k from forgoten realms or any other +4 monk levels to unarmed damage item, decrease that by 4 levels for each new item. monk12/kensai8 + amulet of mighty fists +5, = +5 flaming, shocking,frost, wounding, ghost touch, holy flurry of hits. twoweapon style feat chain= 9 att at neg 2 for off hand. -9 con Use all your gold to buy stat items first and foremost. monks live off stats more than any other character. Toss in a few potions of mage armor, maybe a use activated 3/day sheild item, and there you go dont forget about the +8 strength from kensai.
Faytte 04-09-07, 07:23 PM	Monks are primarily a melee class that unfortunately lack alot of melee scalability. They get so many great 'flavor' abilities I wish would have been spent on making them better combatants. The 'zen' thing is great but what you end up with is a class that tries to accomplish to much and as a result, cant really focus on any one thing. Where as the bard does this by filling many vital roles, the role of combat is already FILLED with specialist classes.
Guy42 04-09-07, 07:44 PM	Monks are primarily a melee class that unfortunately lack alot of melee scalability. They get so many great 'flavor' abilities I wish would have been spent on making them better combatants. The 'zen' thing is great but what you end up with is a class that tries to accomplish to much and as a result, cant really focus on any one thing. Where as the bard does this by filling many vital roles, the role of combat is already FILLED with specialist classes. Monk is not a primary melee class, he does not have the hitdie to go into melee and trade blows with a lot of things, he's more of a fifth wheel for a party, able to stealth, skirmish, and be an anti-caster(well, better than most melee). He is also the only class that can take advantage of stunning fist, and with the Ki Straps now in the magic item compendium meaning really 3.5 legal, you can do it with some fairly nice consistancy. And agreed with the above guy saying not to go with monk passed 12.
MerlintheTuna 04-09-07, 08:11 PM	Monks are, on their own, pretty lousy. I'd advise multiclassing into... well, pretty much anything else, really. Secrets of Sarlona has apparently opened up some pretty neat options for the Psion/Monk; you might consider looking in that direction if you want to stay consistent with the Monk's "power from within" flavor. Tome of Battle is an advised supplement as well; the Swordsage is a far better designed class that shares a lot of flavor with the Monk.
Taeldrin Laesrash 04-09-07, 08:49 PM	Monks are fun. They function as decent scouts, and in combat, they can be difficult to hit, especially with a Spring-Attack heavy approach. However, I'd advise to PrC out into a Monk-specific PrC after 11th level; there's not many great class abilities after Greater Flurry.
Faytte 04-09-07, 08:50 PM	Monk is not a primary melee class, he does not have the hitdie to go into melee and trade blows with a lot of things, he's more of a fifth wheel for a party, able to stealth, skirmish, and be an anti-caster(well, better than most melee). He is also the only class that can take advantage of stunning fist, and with the Ki Straps now in the magic item compendium meaning really 3.5 legal, you can do it with some fairly nice consistancy. And agreed with the above guy saying not to go with monk passed 12. whooo? What of those abilities are really that good? Sorry but a combat minded rogue is going to do more damage, and provide much more utility to the party. Plus they can use magical items, and are less reliant on melee (high dex carries over nicely to a bow). Sorry but "skimmirishing" is a pathetic excuse for "well..he cant fight the BOSS but maybe the bosses minions". Stealth and combat? Why not play a ranger. Your more effective as an anti caster (prep greater many shot vs the spell caster). What does the monk bring that is unique and helps the party? Stunning fist?
LeuktheSavior 04-09-07, 09:12 PM	goliath Monk/Kensai/drunken master You turn your hands into +10 monsters of destruction with Kensai, +15 if you're smart about it, and take earth's embrace from oriental adventures.
Guy42 04-09-07, 09:20 PM	whooo? What of those abilities are really that good? Sorry but a combat minded rogue is going to do more damage, and provide much more utility to the party. Plus they can use magical items, and are less reliant on melee (high dex carries over nicely to a bow). Sorry but "skimmirishing" is a pathetic excuse for "well..he cant fight the BOSS but maybe the bosses minions". Stealth and combat? Why not play a ranger. Your more effective as an anti caster (prep greater many shot vs the spell caster). What does the monk bring that is unique and helps the party? Stunning fist? Yea, they bring stunning fist, and they can also trip/disarm. They aren't meant to be a big damage class, they are a utility class. Stealth, sure, they aren't the best, but if you don't have a rogue around, they can do it, and they can be anti-casters. Sure, not as good as an archer, but as I said, better as a class that gets up close. Of course they aren't going to go hand-to-hand with big bads, but they can spring attack up, attempt a stun, trip, or disarm, and hop away. Hell, my level 6 monk right now has a DC 24 Stunning Fist, it can get low to mid 30s by high levels, and with pain touch, it disables any enemy it works on for 2 rounds. That can definitely help. If you grab rapid stunning, you can do it more than once a round. Their high mobility also makes them perfect with elusive target, pump their AC up and run across the battlefield, each AoO an enemy misses with you get to trip them and follow it up with an attack, you can trip up 3+ enemies easily, setting them up for other melee characters. Monks are battle support, they supplement other melee classes, they aren't heavy hitters, stop trying to bash them over the fact that they can't go blow for blow with a barbarian.
Faytte 04-09-07, 10:20 PM	Yea, they bring stunning fist, and they can also trip/disarm. They aren't meant to be a big damage class, they are a utility class. Stealth, sure, they aren't the best, but if you don't have a rogue around, they can do it, and they can be anti-casters. Sure, not as good as an archer, but as I said, better as a class that gets up close. Of course they aren't going to go hand-to-hand with big bads, but they can spring attack up, attempt a stun, trip, or disarm, and hop away. Hell, my level 6 monk right now has a DC 24 Stunning Fist, it can get low to mid 30s by high levels, and with pain touch, it disables any enemy it works on for 2 rounds. That can definitely help. If you grab rapid stunning, you can do it more than once a round. Their high mobility also makes them perfect with elusive target, pump their AC up and run across the battlefield, each AoO an enemy misses with you get to trip them and follow it up with an attack, you can trip up 3+ enemies easily, setting them up for other melee characters. Monks are battle support, they supplement other melee classes, they aren't heavy hitters, stop trying to bash them over the fact that they can't go blow for blow with a barbarian. You would have benefited the party more by being a normal melee class though, or by being an archer. Both are more effective than the monk. The monks 'support' does not make the party a stronger unit, as say the bard does. The bard does more the bonus the melee units than the monk and its primarily a caster hybrid...
Faytte 04-09-07, 10:21 PM	Anyhow, I'd love to see wizards make a TOB like version of monks.
Guy42 04-09-07, 10:27 PM	Anyhow, I'd love to see wizards make a TOB like version of monks. If you want a ToB monk, go take the unarmed variant swordsage. Swordsage with monk's unarmed strike progression. You can be a fancy melee monk with manuevers like that.
Faytte 04-09-07, 11:25 PM	Right, but theres a difference between homebrew and cannon. Most DM's dont accept 'good' ideas. I know when I was a DM i didnt like any 'proposed' PrC's by my players. I still think you could redeem the base monk. If some of the abilities became...optional...(say tongue of sun and moon or what have you) for other abilities (not even necesarily + damage abilities, but a larger variety) that be nice.
scienceman47 04-09-07, 11:31 PM	Yeah, with the new rash of alternate class features, the monk is begging for them, and has the currency to pay for it. Otherwise, nobody is better equipped to get into a fight with someone that doesn't want to get into a fight. They're also buggers to get rid of. The monk is good. Course, you'd best heed Tony Vargas, lest you end up with a terrible character.
Guy42 04-10-07, 12:28 AM	Right, but theres a difference between homebrew and cannon. Most DM's dont accept 'good' ideas. I know when I was a DM i didnt like any 'proposed' PrC's by my players. I still think you could redeem the base monk. If some of the abilities became...optional...(say tongue of sun and moon or what have you) for other abilities (not even necesarily + damage abilities, but a larger variety) that be nice. I get what you mean, but if you have ToB you could point him to the section near the end of swordsage that even advises to use monk unarmed advancement if you want to play an unarmed variant monk, so it's not quite a homebrew idea. I like the idea of more abilities, really, I hardly take a monk passed level 6 or 11, 6 for the third bonus feat(unually improved trip) or 11 for greater flurry, there really isn't much more unless you want some specific later abilities, like Abundant Step or Diamond Soul(Fun idea I had for a monk going for that, 13th level you get it and have SR 23, then you go 7 levels in Tattooed Monk for Phoenix Tattoo, for SR 35, which is pretty nice, then you just have to worry about stuff that ignores SR for the most prt. I ditched it though because I don't like many other features of the Tattooed Monk.) But yeah, more ability options would definitely make me prestige out more, as it is I don't see reason to go passed 13 at most, unless you are really devoted to the monk type of character.
Acrid 04-10-07, 12:39 PM	I skipped over a lot of the posts on the second page, as is more of the same that was on the first. But i view a few different ways to play a monk. Monks at low levels do not really need items, your not going to wear armor, rarely will you use weapons, so VOP is a good choice in my own opinion. It gives you some nice stat boosts that will help with the MAD, which is hard to get over at lower levels with no items. It gives you more attack and AC buffs, and even gives you extra feats(even though they all suck) Upon reaching say 12-15th level VOP peters out. But i have noticed that a lvl 5 character with VOP, can out perform the other characters in the party. Monks are aso great utility members of the party, beign able to stun and trip opponents. Will someone pleae tell me why it is not better to hit a BBEG that is lying on his back instead of standing up? I mean it seems good to me. The main problem that i see with monks is there are not very many viable prestige classes to andvance into, without multiclassing in a caster class. Now sacred fists can be nice, but for me, enlightened fists are just awesome, beign able to flurry, and have touch and ray spells go off with each hit, is very nice to me. Monks to me are good when you are playing in a large party, that as all fo the "iconic" roles filled. They are good for flavor, scouts, beign jailed, tripping, stunning and many other things. On a minor note, the ToB makes monks much more powerful, and even more fun to play
Broken vacuum 04-12-07, 06:46 AM	Monks work fine from level 1. Most problems people have with them stem from trying to make them into something they are not, focusing too much on a single trick and making very bad use of their wealth. Monks do suffer from MAD, but not as badly as some think. Monks need a couple of decent scores, but also need a few that are not abysmally bad. As such, they are more sensitive to rolled stats than most other classes, but they do well in point-buy of practically any kind (25 works fine); the trick is to spread your points. Your typical human 25-point-buy monk would have a starting array along the line of 14,14,13,10,14,8. First stat-bump should probably go into constitution and the rest into strength. In my experience the most common error people make is overemphasising dexterity. Dexterity is nice to have, but not at the expense of strength, wisdom or constitution. Mechanically the monk FoB exchanges full BAB for more strikes. If you look at the FoB attack bonus chart you can see that it develops as quickly as the attack bonus of a full BAB class for the first 12 levels with the difference that it starts at -2 instead of +1. This carries with it certain implications. As much as possible you want to deliver full attacks and everything that adds to damage per hit is good (strength bonus, energy damage and so on) and even better are things that add to your attack bonus. Monks are skirmishers, but not of the kind that deliver one strike and then disappear. Monks should use their mobility to put themselves into position to deliver a full attack and then decide if it is best to stay for another round or disappear. Typically monks should have about the same constitution modifier as full BAB types, so the difference in HP will not be that great. You do not have the HP and AC to slug it out meat-shield-style with a big bruiser, but you have enough to suffer a round of beating. To be perfectly clear this means that you should stay away from spring attack. That is, however, more relevant at higher levels. At first level you will probably not be using FoB a lot and your best attack option is the quarter-staff. The extra damage from wielding it two-handed means a lot. Even later it is generally more effective to use weapons than unarmed strikes. Even in a game with plenty of caster level boosting equipment where a monk takes Improved Natural Attack, weapons are usually more cost effective; they are better at penetrating damage reduction and they can have juicy special abilities like wounding (practically made for monks). Try to always carry a reach weapon, even if you have to use it untrained. When it comes to defensive equipment, the best in a normal party is probably a wand of Mage Armour (possibly replaced by pearls of power later on). Playing a successful monk involves learning to choose between the attack options you have at your disposal; even at first level, a monk can usually choose between stunning, grappling, flurrying or just plain attacking an opponent.
planetouched 04-12-07, 09:04 AM	Monks are totaly worth it. They are fun as hell to play. Speed bonus if nice, especially when you get aholod of fastclimb. You have the ability to get anywhere on the battlefield whenever you want, and sneak attack and ranged attacks dont work on you. VOP is really situational, as you gain an fighter feat progression with it (or is it less?) and they all get to be exhalted feats. Requireing two feats to even touche, you start off right off the bat with the 3rd level abilities, and all you need to worry about it ammo (do sherikens count against your items?). If you don't go the VOP rotue, i recomend the deflect magic variant(magic attacks that miss are reflected back 1/round dexbonus/day and you miss out on un canny dodge) an any way of gaining a miss chance. The monks belt and/or monks tatto are both musts, and many say a necklace of natural armory, but i can justify that kind of gold. I belive the whole point of a monk is to not rely on items or weapons, but i see that little sparkle in your eye when you find a ring of protection+1. Improved natural weapon ups your attack damage, but some DM's don't allow it. Snatch arrows is nice, and it adds some flair to the monk's already cenimatic flavor. Alot of Monk PrCs have very easy qualifications, and the psyonic one seems the most profitable, but a stroll through the BoED opens up some more possibilities. As far as the monk's signiture move, flurry of misses, you have three options: Don't let them dodge. A high inititave score can give you the edge that first round of combat, especially if you use your high speed to be there before everyone else is. Bluff is good, but as a move action, it's pretty useless, unless you get ahold of an extra action. Combos like any form of seeing and any from of obscuring can help temendously catching your opponend flat-footed. Looking through the MM, i find that very few monstes bother to take ranks in balance, so suck up to the party mage, and have him keep a grease in reserve, or get ahold of a grease wand (...ewww). Don't let them block. Somehow get brilliant energy on something. Radiant holding in another option, and it perfect for darts or sherikens, as it's vet much like a ranged stunning fist. A flurry or touch attacks is an almost sure thing. Feats like Clink in the Armor (sp?) and Raptor School (Eagle's Eye) and drop your opponent's AC like a rock. Dancing fists. Finnese your unarmed attack, and focus on dexterity. Somhow get that bonus to hit up any way you can. I think the Metered Offence (is that the right name) allows you a cululative +1 to hit/max5 for every tims you are missed. You need some skills in preform of some sort, but I think it's worth it. Character optimization aside, they make for great roleplay. You are restriced to lawful, so you see things pretty black and white, but you can bring honor into alot of things. If you have a palidin in your party, you can show him that even though you're LG, you don't need a stick up your arse to deliver justice. Monks are generaly well liked by the comunity for their simplicity, and their skill set allows them to get some places that most people can't. In short, it's a great "figure it out class", in that it has great abilities, but they take some work to use. "Weapons of iron and steel? I need these not. The body is the most powerful weapon of them all." -Something I totally just made up and plan to use the next chance I get. ::EDIT:: Things I just remebered: Sparing dummy of the master (5ft step becomes 10) Decicive strike-trade FoB for attck bonus for one hit Ki blast-Kaaahmeeeehhh..... Flick of the wrist tree-Fist, dagger, palm Skill tricks- I'm sure there are some out there...
MongooseFamiliar 04-12-07, 09:55 AM	My 2 coppers on Vow of Poverty - I didn't take Vow of Peace, but did take all the other holy ki-type feats. I don't have the book on me, so let's see if I can remember what I had - My fists were magic, good, holy, lawful weapons that did an extra 2d6 to evil, an extra 1d6 (2d6? Don't remember) if I used a stunning fist attempt (axiomatic strike), and if I connected forced a save vs. my Touch of Golden Ice. It was hella fun, since every other blasted thing we fought seemed to be either undead or extraplanar or had some sort of damage resistance.
The_Geek 04-12-07, 01:36 PM	One of the things I find really hurts Monks at low level is the AC. With a standard point build, and needing a lot of stats, 14 DEX and WIS are about average (ignoring racial mods). That's a whopping 4 AC. The average fighter with the cruddy armour and shield available at first level leaves them in the dust. Combined with lower HP, a sure recipe for an early combat death. Lots of ways to pump this up. The VoP (so thrown around here) is really nice to your stats, but can cripple you in other ways. A level of BD adds your CHA bonus to AC. Duelist (PrC) adds your INT bonus (though it means dropping out of Monk). Canny Defense (FR feat) adds your INT bonus. Lots of magical items. (At 4 SP, Monks are middling. If you go with a higher INT, Duelist and Canny Defense make sense.) But all of the above focuses on just combat. I consider the name 'Monk' to be misleading. They make a great basis for so many other concepts ... spy, assassin, scout. Monks don't suck if you play them intelligently ... which means not going toe to toe with a full BaB class!
Manic Man 04-12-07, 01:58 PM	In response to the OP Monks are good survivors (at least if you spend your money on getting stuff that help you escape). Combat wise, you'll find hitting to be a problem. Damage is ok, its just that you'll keep missing. I normally play a monk if the rest of the party isn't optimised or experienced. That way i don't become a glory sink and i don't die too often (i hate dying). Of course its personal preference.
Broken vacuum 04-12-07, 02:46 PM	One of the things I find really hurts Monks at low level is the AC. With a standard point build, and needing a lot of stats, 14 DEX and WIS are about average (ignoring racial mods). That's a whopping 4 AC. The average fighter with the cruddy armour and shield available at first level leaves them in the dust. Combined with lower HP, a sure recipe for an early combat death. The starting monk AC is about that of a THF fighter (a point or so lower). It is, however, very easy and cheap to boost with Mage Armour which leaves more wealth for other defensive items. Monk AC is usually somewhat lower and eventually more expensive than fighter AC, but not terminally so.
Dragonwriter 04-13-07, 12:21 AM	I've always loved monks, but I will admit that some of the things I've heard have made me want to rethink it a little. In any case, I'd like to add my little side note about taking on the more melee-oriented classes: the greatest strength of the monk, in terms of melee, is the ability to force the other melee-oriented classes to fight on his/her terms. Specifically, your fists are treated as magical and as adamantine: take Improved Sunder! If any of the melee-oriented classes comes at you, just grab their +5 Flaming Longsword and BREAK it. Once that's done, they have to fight on your terms: unarmed. Which strongly shifts the advantage towards your court. Heck, why stop there, go for their armor too! Now they have to fight you like a monk, and you're better at it than they are.
UnknownMourner 04-13-07, 12:58 AM	The monk does not have a specialty, so some think he blows. His strength is his ability to help out in many odd situations, and take care of himself. On paper they may look weak. If you DM does not run a wide array of combat situations, they will also be of less value. Our campiagn has a different terrain/situation/race agasint time/objective for almost every battle. The monk is always saving the day, the monkey wrench in the enemy plans. His crazy speed, reliable saves, and long list of freaky abilities and immunities makes him the go man very often. If every fight is on a featureless open space, or a long series of 5 square x 5 square rooms with all the rest time your spellcasters want, then he won't shine.
TheAnthroDM 04-13-07, 01:00 AM	Monks are low levels are pretty good, at level they have all good saves, they have decent HP if you have your stats right, and their AC is on par with the frontline fighters if not better. Flurry of Blow can come in handy depending on how lucky you are, at low levels it seems to be more like a attack reroll than attempting to strike two times(which seems to rarely happen) so the accuracy penality isn't really that horrid.
sluggo 04-13-07, 04:32 PM	I would suggest playing a Monk-Drunk Master with: Vow of Poverty Draconic Fist - either Acid, cold or electricity Decisive Strike Two Weapon Fighting Weapon Finese Fiery Fist Ki Blast Fists of Iron Flying Kick Acrobatic Strike You get the benefits of the Vow of Poverty, which are very good. Your unarmed attacks, which you are now hitting with your Dex (should be higher for the def.) and more times per round, can cause Fire and another energy type damage. Ki Blast and the DM Fire Breath give you a ranged attack. Fists of Iron upgrade your unarmed strike even more. Flying Kick improves your charge (which is also improved by the DM Stagger ability) damage. Acrobatic Strike gives your attacks after your tumble a bonus. And finally you are able to make a critical hit when you know you need one. You're not going to be able to hold your own with the Barbarians and Fighters but you'll be able to rip into an enemies second line (spellcasters, healers, range attacks) to shreads.
Gadren 04-14-07, 03:32 AM	I play monks often, but I never stick with the straight core monk. I only play them when I roll high stats across the board: there's not much point otherwise. Monk -> Paladin ->Kensai was alot of fun and very potent. The concept was that I saw my body as an instrument of my god. If I went back and played it again with MiC it would have been even better. Just remember to take the Ascetic Knight feat. If you want to play more of a pugilist I suggest monk 4 -> fighter x. The weapon focus and spec feat can match unarmed damage increase pretty closely, plus your BAB won't suffer so much and you get all the beautiful feats. I've wanted to play a monk -> rogue with the Ascetic Rogue feat for a while. Stunning-fist/Trip + sneak attack seems like a real nice combo to me. Probably a better ninja than the ninja class.
navar100 04-14-07, 03:45 AM	I'm considering playing a monk in an upcoming campaign, and I would like to hear your opinions. At the first few low levels, they seem to really suck. Once you get higher though, their value becomes greater with every passing moment. Are they worth starting from 1st level, or are monks one of those classes that is only good to start from 5th level and up? Oh, please no. I'm exhausted already defending the fighter. Must resist having to defend the monk too. No, monks do not suck.
snakeman830 04-14-07, 08:37 AM	Monks are the worst class to cast haste on (+1 to attack, AC, and reflex and that's IT for monks). That being said... Catfolk Monk/rouge Feats: Catfolk Pounce, Spring attack, Dodge, Mobility, Asetic Rouge Charge (tumble as needed), hit them flat-footed with a flurry of blows (sneak attacks all), and leap away. If you stunned them in that flurry, you can repeat next turn. wash, rinse, repeat. Sorry, but I just found this fun to do. Ways to boost your attack are wonderful for monks. An amulet of mighty fists is a great idea, but you may want that slot for a peripet of Wisdom or an amuet of natural armor. See about getting another item that does the same thing. The scopion kama thingy mentioned earlier sounds awesome and can easily be enhanced (including made shadowstriking. Say good-bye to DR). Improved Natural attack won't hurt for damage. Weapon focus (unarmed strike) can't hurt, but it may not be worth the feat slot. Look into a possible Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (TOM). When activated, it will make you slightly faster (10 ft, but not enhancement), give you +8 on hide, HiPS, resistance cold 10, Darkvision 60ft, supiriour low-light vision, and +6 move silently. (Greater Collar means no activation is necessary). Great item and definitly makes you more stealthy, but does little for combat. Also, it takes up the neck slot (a valuable slot for a monk).
middlewilliam 04-14-07, 10:11 AM	well cant find my sheets :( so if you have a decent stength or dex i would reccomeng getting TWF along with weapon finesse at 3rd for a serious amount of attacks paired up with flurry. If you are human and have another feat i would get roundabout kick from Complete warrior. I believe that it does an extra d10 on crits when fighting unarmed. Fun wise i always enjoyed them and went unarmed and didn't use monk weapons. If you could talk your dm into letting you have gloves that can be enchanted to improve unarmed strikes. Having no armor i always enjoyed the extra gold to spend on other magical goodies. Hope i was some help gloves that enhance unarmed strike?:confused: i've never heard of these.
Evil DM Mk3 04-14-07, 10:37 AM	:monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :monk: :dancin: First I think this last guy is the Denis of teh monestary, clearly not paying attention. Kung fu, not dance fight! Second, if you ahve a dedicated sneakattacking rouge in the party remember to grapple often and grapple well. hit and run. If the enamy have vulerables (like wizards)guess who can run round and pummel 18 kinds of pain out of them?
teshen 04-14-07, 11:10 AM	First I think this last guy is the Denis of teh monestary, clearly not paying attention. Kung fu, not dance fight! Nah... he's trying capoeira. Second, if you ahve a dedicated sneakattacking rouge in the party remember to grapple often and grapple well. hit and run. If the enamy have vulerables (like wizards)guess who can run round and pummel 18 kinds of pain out of them? According to dictionary.com Rogue 1. a dishonest, knavish person; scoundrel. 2. a playfully mischievous person; scamp: The youngest boys are little rogues. 3. a tramp or vagabond. Rouge 1. any of various red cosmetics for coloring the cheeks or lips. 2. a reddish powder, chiefly ferric oxide, used for polishing metal, glass, etc. 3. Canadian football. But I agree, bully those punks with the grappling monk + rogue pain combo... take that lunch money. (... there's a joke there with the canadian football, but I'm not a good enough comedian to exploit it... *sigh*)
Scion of Coldshard 04-14-07, 11:36 AM	Monks are the worst class to cast haste on (+1 to attack, AC, and reflex and that's IT for monks). Is there a reason you feel that monks would not get the extra attack on a full attack?
Braekor Dragonfang 04-14-07, 12:51 PM	Neji Hyuuga Style Monk Monk 10-12/Kensai 8-10 dex and wis are crucial, con a close second, str not necessary Suggested Feats: finesse, pain touch, weakening touch, falling star strike, freeze the lifeblood, improved initiative, deathblow, rapid stunning, ability focus (stunning fist) Oriental Style: PrC as Shintao monk after 8th-12th level and take the Meditation of War Mastery style Multiclassing possibilities: rogue /w ascetic rogue feat, combine sneak with hamstring and deft strike Concept: crazy stunmaster, Freeze the Lifeblood + Deathblow = death, falling star strike/pain touch crucial, weakening touch not so much. ignore str and don't overdo con, because dex is key. boost dex as much as possible to ensure hits. boost wis to increase stun save dc Zangief the crazy russian Style Monk EX-Monk 4 / Bbn 4 / Ftr 2 / Reaping mauler 5 / Choice 5 STR and CON should be 16+, DEX at least 10, WIS 14+ Suggested feats: improved grapple, choke hold, earth's embrace, clever wrestler, close quarters fighter, defensive throw, improved trip, improved sunder, eagle's claw, fists of iron, power attack, combat brute Oriental style: EX-Monk 4 / Bbn 4 / Ftr 2 / Reaping Mauler 5 / Singh Rager 5 with Empty Hand Mastery or Mighty Works 2 Mastery Concept: ridiculous damage, focus on grappling and tripping, use rage to boost str and con, reaping mauler for better grappling
Navigator 04-14-07, 02:11 PM	I find Monks to be a great class for medium to high LA monster with unique special abilities, like vampires or kua-toa (sp?), or races with very high bonuses to a single stat (half-ogre, catfolk). Though, I don't think I would ever play a Monk myself, just because of a fantastically low AC, and virtually no damage output as a melee character. Yeah, you have a few tricks and are very hard to kill with anything other than a full BAB/high strength baddie, but that's not enough for me.
scienceman47 04-14-07, 03:10 PM	Monks are the worst class to cast haste on (+1 to attack, AC, and reflex and that's IT for monks). That being said... Catfolk Monk/rouge Feats: Catfolk Pounce, Spring attack, Dodge, Mobility, Asetic Rouge Charge (tumble as needed), hit them flat-footed with a flurry of blows (sneak attacks all), and leap away. If you stunned them in that flurry, you can repeat next turn. wash, rinse, repeat. Sorry, but I just found this fun to do. Ways to boost your attack are wonderful for monks. An amulet of mighty fists is a great idea, but you may want that slot for a peripet of Wisdom or an amuet of natural armor. See about getting another item that does the same thing. The scopion kama thingy mentioned earlier sounds awesome and can easily be enhanced (including made shadowstriking. Say good-bye to DR). Improved Natural attack won't hurt for damage. Weapon focus (unarmed strike) can't hurt, but it may not be worth the feat slot. Look into a possible Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (TOM). When activated, it will make you slightly faster (10 ft, but not enhancement), give you +8 on hide, HiPS, resistance cold 10, Darkvision 60ft, supiriour low-light vision, and +6 move silently. (Greater Collar means no activation is necessary). Great item and definitly makes you more stealthy, but does little for combat. Also, it takes up the neck slot (a valuable slot for a monk). Your kidding me. The amulet of mighty fists is one of the worst items in the game. You can mathematically get the same result by ponying up for a belt of giant strength 6 and a strength book +4. Considering the items in the same price range allow you to... ya know... trap a BALOR, I would say its a seriously bad deal. Son, you use that unarmed strike in a grapple, or with snap kick, or when you've been disarmed. But otherwise, you pick up that magic quarterstaff and you beat the **** out of that wizard.
ShinoAburame 04-14-07, 05:50 PM	Monks never suck, you're just not playing'em right. http://www.narutocommunity.net/gallery/data/thumbnails/83/142.jpg This guy could kill ya twenty differant ways and doesn't need one damn spell to do it.
teshen 04-14-07, 07:20 PM	Monks never suck, you're just not playing'em right. http://www.narutocommunity.net/gallery/data/thumbnails/83/142.jpg This guy could kill ya twenty differant ways and doesn't need one damn spell to do it. ...but I don't really know if you can create that teenager in D&D without hitting around 15th level or higher... Probably higher...
Faytte 04-14-07, 07:41 PM	Pound for pound...im still not sold. The major advantage of the monk over the other melee options seems to be speed of movement, but at a considerable lose of 'damage'. While entering a prc or other class is a suitable band aid, the base class itself still doesnt really serve a point. The term 'skirmisher' here just seems to sound like "not as good". An archer could hit opponents at distances easier than the monk could (and take their full attack action). On its own, its a class that wasted to many of its abilities on things that are purely flavorful. But yeah, if you gotta move jump really high or move really fast I guess the monk is your man.
ZocckCastlestorm 04-14-07, 07:42 PM	I find Monks to be either really good, or really bad. It mostly depends upon the situations/Foes faced. If you are in a Campaign with a lot of un-Stunable types like Undead/Constructs/Oozes then you'll be in trouble. If you are mostly fighting "Hurts-to-Touch" Foes, like Fire Elementals, and you'll want a different PC Class altogether! On the other hand, if openly worn/owned Weapons/Armour is a problem with the Campaign's Authority Figures (Like "Against-the-Facist-Evil-Overlord" Campaigns), then the Monk ROCKS! If it's a typical World, like Greyhawk or FR, then you'll be ok. Not "AWSOME". Just ok. Take Sun School Tactical Feat as soon as you can and you'll do well.
Faytte 04-14-07, 08:05 PM	If your mostly facing stunable characters, and therefore usually critable, you might consider a combat focused rogue. Youll deal good damage and assist the party with scouting and trap disarming.
Scion of Coldshard 04-14-07, 08:32 PM	A 9th level monk with improved natural attack, superior unarmed strike, and a monks belt deals 3d8 damage base and has three attacks on a full attack (+6/+6/+1 base). That is not too shabby. Full attack with a rogue vs a creature susceptible to sneak attack compared with a full attack from the monk looks to be close to the same average damage. Of course the rogue has not spent that money or those feats but then you cannot always get a flank or fight creatures who will take sneak attack damage. It does really suck that they have very few viable options for magical enhancements. I put forward that it is likely at least one person in the party can cast greater magic weapon or greater magic fang at this point however so the monk should put aside money to get that guy a pearl of power dedicated to giving the monk one of those spells. It sucks to have to do that, but the game currently forces it.
Faytte 04-14-07, 08:43 PM	Eh, if they had to redo the monk they should consider giving them feats like bounding assault, removing some of the 'not that useful' and over the top flavor abilities for something more basic. I realize they were going for something semi mystical but it just doesnt seem executed well. That said I dont like home brew 'fixes' for classes. Rather they be cannon. The 'unarmed' sword sage looks mighty fine though.
Gadren 04-17-07, 01:37 AM	Your kidding me. The amulet of mighty fists is one of the worst items in the game. You can mathematically get the same result by ponying up for a belt of giant strength 6 and a strength book +4. Considering the items in the same price range allow you to... ya know... trap a BALOR, I would say its a seriously bad deal. Son, you use that unarmed strike in a grapple, or with snap kick, or when you've been disarmed. But otherwise, you pick up that magic quarterstaff and you beat the **** out of that wizard. When I play a monk, instead of wasting money on the amulet, I go out of my way to get a high-level druid to cast greater magic fang on me and then have a high-level wizard cast permanency (preferrably with a ring of enduring arcana).
j_gunder 04-17-07, 02:10 AM	Mid-level monks have it rough. I won't go so far as to say that monks suck, but here's my experience with a pretty much core-only monk stuck in mid-levels at the moment in a campaign I'm currently running. Early on, Shen (the monk) had a lot going for him. Pretty much everything was stun-able, and he could pull it off with a reasonable chance of success (enemy had reasonable ACs and low-ish saves). Melee wasn't deadly to the point that Shen couldn't handle a few rounds of full attacks, and the monks out-of-combat skills made him a decent character to have around. There were heaps of times when Shen wished he had ranged attacks that didn't take move actions to reload, or when he wished he could boost his AC by a couple points...but pretty much, he functioned as a primary melee character with some decent skills ouside of combat. About level 5, though, things started to get rough. Enemy ACs were increasing, and the monk's medium BAB started to make flurries miss more often than they hit. Enemy attacks and damage scaled up quite a bit...making melee deadly. Shen didn't have the hit points to keep up with the fighter and paladin, and his low AC meant he was constantly getting wailed on. More and more, foes were immune to stun, too strong to grapple and were just to dangerous to enter melee with. A lot of time was spent tumbling around to flank with the fighters, and then tumbling out of combat to soak up healing spells while the mages and fighters finished the job. Outside of combat, the mid-level monk didn't shine like he used to. Clerics and mages had utility spells that often fit better than the monk's skills, and while the monk was fast on his feet and a great skirmisher, he usually had to hang out until the fighters softened up the foes before entering melee. His saves were great, though, and he was a great anti-rogue/anti-mage character...deflect arrows is nice, since monks pretty much get it for free at this point. It probably saved several dozen hit points worth of damage for Shen. Now that we're getting a bit higher in level, Shen is starting to feel better about his role in the party. He's quicker than anyone else, even the mounted characters, his saves rock, his attack bonuses (while not great) are okay for the first two attacks out of his flurry, and he has heaps of stun attempts per day. If the enemy can't be stunned, he just hangs out and goes total defensive so the fighters get flanking bonuses or tosses thunderstones and tanglefoot bags. Poison immunity and spell resistance will be major boons, I think...and while Shen still lacks the raw BAB, hit points and ACs of the fighters...he's a decent secondary fighter. He can tumble in and out of combat pretty much freely, so he makes a great skirmisher, and the ability to heal his own wounds has increased his durability a bit. Buff spells make all the difference--those random potions of endurance and bull's strength really make a difference (+2 to hit and damage spread out over four flurry attacks is nice, especially when the first two are stunning fists)...I highly recommend becoming friendly with the buffers. Haste is your friend. Items that boost strength and constitution are your friend. Flanking with the melee folk will earn you friends as everyone hits more often... In summary: monks are alright. They have their issues, to be sure, but so does every class. Every character in my campaign has lamented the choice of class at some point...that's just how dnd is. 5th-level fighters and sorcerers have a lot to whine about, as do 2nd-level wizards that are getting dropped by heavy crossbows constantly. Know your weaknesses, play to your strengths, and the monk is just fine.