Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MJuggernaut 12-28-05, 02:29 AM	My DM and some players say that the monk is over powered. They say that "the monks individual powers are not over powered, but the monk as a whole" "and that you have to understand the monk as a whole to understand that the monk is over powered" And if some aspects over power the class what amendments could be made to the class.
BlaineTog 12-28-05, 02:47 AM	The monk is not overpowered by virtually any measuring stick.
Milo HoBo 12-28-05, 02:55 AM	All good saves, that may be nice and all, but the lack of the ability to fill any role leaves them behind. They have a Multiple ability score dependancy. Strength to take advantage of their iconic unarmed damage. Dexterity to make up for the lack of armor. Constitution to make up for low hit points. Wisdom for other class abilities. They lack the AC, HP, and BAB to be the main melee combatant. They lack the skills to be the rogue. They lack any spell casting abilities. They're without a doubt the best loner, but can't fill any party role. If you play solo, however, they're great. Explain this to your DM in this way and he/she might understand.
The Human Target 12-28-05, 03:05 AM	I don't think they are by any means.
Mobiledwm 12-28-05, 03:48 AM	As a DM, I do notthink they are overpowered, but their abilities are quite annoying. Immunities to a wide variety of effects, plus SR at a certin level is a very powerful combination. They might not be able ot do a lot of damage, but then again, survivability counts for a lot. I no longer allow them in my gmaes as they are just too different from the other classes. Tehy do not really fit in in any way.
serow_#R 12-28-05, 03:56 AM	wizards, clerics, druids are overpowered i don't find monks overpowered very funky stuff yes, but not overpowered :)
a_psh 12-28-05, 04:06 AM	The monk can't wear armor, has a medium BAB, and needs multiple ability scores to be effective, which makes her a pretty poor front-liner, both in terms of damage output and durability: the monk can't take a lot of hits, and she fares poorly against highly-armored foes. The monk's damage output is comparable to that of a ranger or rogue, making her an average skirmisher. The monk's 4 skill points and probably low Int (Str, Dex, Con, and Wis are all much more desirable stats) make the monk a pretty poor skill monkey. The monk can Hide and Move Silently as well as a ranger or rogue, but has fewer skill points and fewer useful stealth abilities. Thus, the monk is, at best, an average scout. The monk has SR, good saves, high mobility, and a nice stunning ability. This makes the monk an excellent caster-killer and interrupter. Monks don't have spellcasting, so they can't fill the other party roles (such as healer, buffer, item creator, direct-damage caster, minion summoner, &c.) at all. As a mix-in, a small dip in monk makes many unarmored characters more viable by giving them a small boost in armor, speed, and attack power. However, since arcanists ultimately benefit more from focusing on spellcasting than they do from mixing in a bunch of non-casting levels, this only makes potentially weak characters (those that could wear some armor but don't) more viable, but doesn't benefit arcanists (who are unarmored by default) very much. Overall, it's a useful class, but not that great, particularly because the role that a single-classed monk fills best (the mage-slayer) is a very useful support role but less vital to the general effort than any of the standard four-man-team roles. So, all in all, I'd say monk is a useful class, but honestly not that powerful. I mostly use it as a mix-in for rogue or psychic warrior type characters.
Elemental_Elf 12-28-05, 05:30 AM	The Monk is far from overpowered. It's simply an average class with average skills and a few nifty, yet ultimately 'meh,' abilities.
Sosthenes 12-28-05, 06:00 AM	The monk is a very bad class for powergaming. Even if you have a suitably optimized character, you won't find many areas where he will shine. He's an incredibly good support, very nice to have around. The cleric doesn't have to heal him so much, he doesn't need a lot of upkeep (i.e. magic items) and he's rather helpful in a combat. He won't get much time in the limelight, though. No flashy spells, no big bouts of incredible damage. The occasional cool leap and flurry. Which goes along nicely with the monkish stereotype. If you can live with the humble, silent type, you'll enjoy playing a monk. (I'll disregard the evil monk assassins. That's just another word for Ninja)
Ralphius_Maximus 12-28-05, 07:50 AM	They are about the weakest base class in the game when taken on their own. I find that the bes tof their abilities in a party situation is the stunning fist (or whatever it's called). It allows the rogue all the sneak attacks they want, prevents spellcasters from casting, and can generally be a pain in the rear for the GM. However, you never want them in the front line in combat. They are far too easy to drop.
Thorak 12-28-05, 08:00 AM	Like everyone else said, the monk is not overpowered. At best, they're the "scissors" in a D&D game of rock-paper-scissors, where melee types like Fighters are rock, and arcane casters and rogues are paper. They're only powerful if you rely on SA or offensive spellcasting, two things they are strong against. They are weak in melee, compared to most other classes. The only way you can see them as overpowered is if you're a wizard or sorceror, and you're whining because you can't just nuke them with a single spell, but actually have to be smart. That said, in the game of rock-paper-scissors, Clerics and Druids are atom bombs, and beat everything. If you want to talk about class balance problems, they're the ones to look at.
CzarGarrett 12-28-05, 08:59 AM	I concur with these sentiments. Monks are secondary fighters, second tier in skill points, have multiple ability scores to deal with. In exchange, they get some interesting powers and abilities.
red-gregor 12-28-05, 11:19 AM	manks are cool but you need good stats all around for them and they are more of the scout and second fighter and they are more of the buying guy because later on they speech and understand every thing
Draconian220 12-28-05, 11:38 AM	what would be the best combination of feats and skills to make up for the monks weaknessness?
Glenn4Moose 12-28-05, 11:56 AM	as a dm who likes to run high level campaigns, monks are the most annoying class ever imho. Can't hit them with most spells(in my current game at lvl 7 with a pally/monk 4/3 combo who has +13 to all his stats :o), if they grapple they are slipperly little wombats, and have a nice widerange of abilities most dm's forget about. Powerful, not particularlly. Annoying - by far(to a dm). Its a very multipurpose class as all the others have said before. Just try not to, well do anything to the monks with saves ;)
FlimFlam 12-28-05, 12:06 PM	Monks are maybe a notch better than Bards in the grand scheme of things. A level 20 Wizard or Cleric can cast Wish or Miracle. Can a Monk do ANYTHING as compareable as that?
CzarGarrett 12-28-05, 12:16 PM	Monks are maybe a notch better than Bards in the grand scheme of things. A level 20 Wizard or Cleric can cast Wish or Miracle. Can a Monk do ANYTHING as compareable as that? Roundhouse kick the Wizard/Cleric so hard he/she loses the spell.
Rhomphaia 12-28-05, 12:18 PM	When you take a level or two of sorcerer, then take your monk levels, you can be downright annoying when you choose the right spells. The only way I can see a monk being overpowered is really in a gestalt game. There really isn't a bad class to combine with the monk. That is because a monk gets a boatload of secondary support abilities and no 'primary' adventuring abilities of his own, unless you count increased survivability.
Wayfarer 12-28-05, 12:18 PM	I think annoying is a better way of putting it than overpowered, because they're not. They just have a ton of mediocre abilities, so that they get like three things at each level, but the result is still fairly weak. They have a weird flavor that clashes with most game settings and gets on some people's nerves. The 3.0 Monk had some wonky mechanics that didn't fit in with the rest of the game, but the 3.5 monk actually takes care of that pretty nicely.
colyn kell 12-28-05, 03:29 PM	Ive tried on several occasions to break a monk. I have failed several times trying to break a monk. The best monk I ever had was Pal 3/ monk 8. Very very good saves, and immunity to allot of stuff. It turned out virtually nothing could kill me, but I literally couldn't kill anything. If you tank your ac, and pump your strength, and go the grappling route, they're a serious pain in the neck.
epyondrowhunter 12-28-05, 03:40 PM	monks arent over or underpowered. u can make them that way by how u play them. there are a number of great feats and prestige classes that can make the monk insane. for instance in Book of Exalted Deeds there is a feat called vow of poverty that is insane when combined with the monk class. also there are the prestige classes like sacred fist, witch requires one level of a divine caster to take and gives u full BAB 8/10 spellcasting levels, some cool abilitys and full unarmed damage as a monk. there is also an arcane equivilant that does basically the same thing.
MJuggernaut 12-28-05, 04:05 PM	After telling my DM some of the points you guys brought up i found the real problem. He didn't want me playing the monk (and highly discourages wizards and magical classes) because of his and 3/5 of my groups dislike of high magic and magical abilities. Also the other person in my group that likes magic thinks the monks magical abilities are over powered, I dont think he took into account the monks role crisiss. Ironicly we play in ebberon....
epyondrowhunter 12-28-05, 04:13 PM	monks dont have any magical abilitys
Count Arioch the 28th 12-28-05, 04:19 PM	Roundhouse kick the Wizard/Cleric so hard he/she loses the spell. The wizard/cleric has more ranks in concentration than the monk can deal damage. The cleric/wizard rolls the 2 or higher he needs to not lose concentration. Plus, you've missed the points behind wizard/clerics. The cleric will be running all sorts of crazy buffs to give him mighty powers, while the wizard at level 20 would have several safeguards in place to prevent them from being in melee for any reason. (and that's if they're not creative, a creative wizard could have damn enar anything up his sleeve.) But a wizard wouldn't be casting wish. Wish in underpowered. It's basically a spell where you spend 5,000 XP to be cornholed by the DM.
red-gregor 12-28-05, 04:28 PM	there is a way to make a monk untouchable if you take a monk and take some of the vows out of the exalted like vow of pavort and all that you can make it where any weapon attacking u has a chance to break and all that a monk with the right feats can be a broken class
Count Arioch the 28th 12-28-05, 04:43 PM	And it's generally agreed upon that the vow feats are about a thousand times better on a less gear-dependant class. (And before anyone argues with me, not wearing armor and not using weaposn makes you MORE dependant on gear to make up for the inferiority of your fighting style, not less. Monks need scads of stat increasing gear, expensive amulet of mighty fists, and a whole lot of things.) Seriously, a Vow based exalted druid pwns the exalted monk fiteen times before breakfast. Edit: And that post should be more than one sentence.
Thorak 12-28-05, 05:09 PM	there is a way to make a monk untouchable if you take a monk and take some of the vows out of the exalted like vow of pavort and all that you can make it where any weapon attacking u has a chance to break and all that a monk with the right feats can be a broken class And the wizard says "Oh no, I surrender, please show me mercy!", and you now lose all those powers if you hurt him. And then he backstabs you, because he's evil and you're stupidly good. Exalted means you put doing the right thing over surviving and winning. If you need to kill a prisoner to win or live, you won't do it. This is the absolute biggest handicap any of these Vows carry, and even without considering it, they're barely keeping up with a standard progression.
Wilds 12-28-05, 05:18 PM	Thats presuming that a wizard that does try to stab you hits. Monks have crazy AC buffs
Journeyman Samwise 12-28-05, 05:32 PM	Totally overpowered. I mean, medium BAB??? D8 hit die?!? They're more broken than Pun-Pun!!!!! The only way to make them balanced is to give them a Wizard's BAB/HD, a Fighter's Reflex save, a Rogue's Will/Fort saves, and a Sorcerer's special abilities. Except for the spellcasting and familiar. Which are both really overpowered.
Zephyrus/Sonet 12-28-05, 08:06 PM	Totally overpowered. I mean, medium BAB??? D8 hit die?!? They're more broken than Pun-Pun!!!!! The only way to make them balanced is to give them a Wizard's BAB/HD, a Fighter's Reflex save, a Rogue's Will/Fort saves, and a Sorcerer's special abilities. Except for the spellcasting and familiar. Which are both really overpowered. Finally, a balanced class.
Journeyman Samwise 12-28-05, 08:23 PM	Oh I don't know, the original Psionics Handbook was pretty balanced...
Kary Wanzer 12-28-05, 08:32 PM	:u: Monks aren't that powerful overall; even fighters can ironically become better grapplers than monks (though they're tied in unarmed combat in general). Monks really only do two things well: stunning attacks (which requires teaming up with a rogue to actually be useful; it doesn't accomplish too much in solo duels), and surviving magic attacks. All good saves, evasion, spell resistance, fast movement, and forms of dimension door and ethereal jaunt mean that monks are hard to kill with direct magic. However, that's about it. Monks are really just so-so when it comes to skills (especially in 3.5 with bards and rangers being upgraded to 6 + Int skill points) and their combat prowess is questionable. A monk might be the last one in the party to be killed, but once everyone else is gone, he really can't accomplish anything on his own (even a bard can solo more effectively). :r:
Draconian220 12-29-05, 12:42 AM	believe it or not im actually in a game were the DM disallows minks because he thinks they are overpowered (hopefully showing him this thread will change his mind for me lol). but i am currenly building a lev 8 monk for another game and unless i multi class my next few levels i am finding it kinda underpowered. i have good saves and such but i wont compare to other party members in combat and skill. also, there arent really that many good monk priestiege classes as ive seen either. personally i have been looking at tattooed monk for my monk but you only get anything from it every 2 levels. levels 2,4,6 ect.. you get nothing at all, which (as nice as the abalities the tattoos give you are) kinda sucks to not get anything for leveling. there needs to be a good monk priestiege class. if anyone knows one ive overlooked please shout it out or link me to it lol, cause so far all i can see are sucky ones unless i start multiclassing like crazy and i was shooting for true monk all the way :mage:
Sir Gummibaerchen 12-29-05, 04:29 AM	believe it or not im actually in a game were the DM disallows minks because he thinks they are overpowered (hopefully showing him this thread will change his mind for me lol). Woah, what an annoying way to post. On a completely unrelated note: If your DM is afraid of monks being too strong, simply play a CoD, even without ANY splatbooks. If you do it right, he will cry. Oftenso. And see that he was wrong, wishing you would have played a monk.
BlaineTog 12-29-05, 05:06 AM	Woah, what an annoying way to post.QFT
Ramacass 12-29-05, 08:17 AM	I just started playing a vow of poverty monk lvl10/ELC2(from being a saint). and quite frankly it kicks some serious but. starting stats str:16 dex:14 con:16 wis:17 int:10 ch:9 After 10llevels of monk +2ELC saint str18 dex:14 con18 wis:27 int:10 Cha:13 AC: is something like 36 /38 againt evil, and that's before combat expertise Stunning fist DC25 if evil 27. Average dam 10 per hit against non evil+ 2d6 if they're chaotic and 25 against evil +2d6 if they're chaotic. I'm immune to just about everything except fire to which I have res10, DR 10 evil, good saves and can trip like a ****. All I own is some hemp clothes wooden sandals and a sling, thats it. I love the character and wouldn't play a saint or vow of poverty just for the powers it's a great character to role play and the two go great together. It's main strength is the ability to survive but that's great because it lets you throw caution to the wind and play the true hero. I only plan on playing this character for 3-4 levels and then go back to my Paladin Character but it is by no way a character that doesn't get it's share of the spotlight.
red-gregor 12-29-05, 08:30 AM	I just started playing a vow of poverty monk lvl10/ELC2(from being a saint). and quite frankly it kicks some serious but. starting stats str:16 dex:14 con:16 wis:17 int:10 ch:9 After 10llevels of monk +2ELC saint str18 dex:14 con18 wis:27 int:10 Cha:13 AC: is something like 36 /38 againt evil, and that's before combat expertise Stunning fist DC25 if evil 27. Average dam 10 per hit against non evil+ 2d6 if they're chaotic and 25 against evil +2d6 if they're chaotic. I'm immune to just about everything except fire to which I have res10, DR 10 evil, good saves and can trip like a ****. All I own is some hemp clothes wooden sandals and a sling, thats it. I love the character and wouldn't play a saint or vow of poverty just for the powers it's a great character to role play and the two go great together. It's main strength is the ability to survive but that's great because it lets you throw caution to the wind and play the true hero. I only plan on playing this character for 3-4 levels and then go back to my Paladin Character but it is by no way a character that doesn't get it's share of the spotlight. i know what you mean my freind took a monk epic with all the vows of poverty and all of them no one could touch him just the down fall is that you cant keep ur gold or any magic items but hey you kick butt with out them
red-gregor 12-29-05, 08:35 AM	believe it or not im actually in a game were the DM disallows minks because he thinks they are overpowered (hopefully showing him this thread will change his mind for me lol). but i am currenly building a lev 8 monk for another game and unless i multi class my next few levels i am finding it kinda underpowered. i have good saves and such but i wont compare to other party members in combat and skill. also, there arent really that many good monk priestiege classes as ive seen either. personally i have been looking at tattooed monk for my monk but you only get anything from it every 2 levels. levels 2,4,6 ect.. you get nothing at all, which (as nice as the abalities the tattoos give you are) kinda sucks to not get anything for leveling. there needs to be a good monk priestiege class. if anyone knows one ive overlooked please shout it out or link me to it lol, cause so far all i can see are sucky ones unless i start multiclassing like crazy and i was shooting for true monk all the way :mage: to help you out instead of takeing a pestige do straight monk with the exalted deeds. it is one of the best things to do but the tattoo monks arent worth going into i would look throught the exalted deeds and all that for a good prestige that is lawful and some of them say for monks to continue in level or the complete arcane for a mage slayewr type monk. hope i helped a little
red-gregor 12-29-05, 08:39 AM	:u: Monks aren't that powerful overall; even fighters can ironically become better grapplers than monks (though they're tied in unarmed combat in general). Monks really only do two things well: stunning attacks (which requires teaming up with a rogue to actually be useful; it doesn't accomplish too much in solo duels), and surviving magic attacks. All good saves, evasion, spell resistance, fast movement, and forms of dimension door and ethereal jaunt mean that monks are hard to kill with direct magic. However, that's about it. Monks are really just so-so when it comes to skills (especially in 3.5 with bards and rangers being upgraded to 6 + Int skill points) and their combat prowess is questionable. A monk might be the last one in the party to be killed, but once everyone else is gone, he really can't accomplish anything on his own (even a bard can solo more effectively). :r: ok a monk if deadly with feats ok here is his solo thing he has spring attack the spell caster and him are 45 feet away he springs in stuns him and goes to town in a fighters fight he springs in attacks and moves out useing tumble to stop aoo in a cleric he would just use spring and grapple to and trip to keep the cleric guessing and wear him down and the monks role in the party is to be the mage killer and scout and second fight they have good ac and can be very dangeruis
red-gregor 12-29-05, 08:43 AM	And the wizard says "Oh no, I surrender, please show me mercy!", and you now lose all those powers if you hurt him. And then he backstabs you, because he's evil and you're stupidly good. Exalted means you put doing the right thing over surviving and winning. If you need to kill a prisoner to win or live, you won't do it. This is the absolute biggest handicap any of these Vows carry, and even without considering it, they're barely keeping up with a standard progression. ya the wizard goes to stab you he has barly a chance to hit you he cast true strike all i have to do is subdule damage if he dies from it all it wasnt my fault and his weapon that he does to stab me with has to make a save or be destroyed
Xabre 12-29-05, 08:53 AM	I can only think of one way to really break the Monk. Vow of Poverty.
LordLeecho 12-29-05, 09:11 AM	If you all think that monks cannot be broken you need to play with my group. We have a monk in the group that is the main damage dealer (over two fighters: One charging long spear guy, other two weapon fighter with big hits). On top of being the biggest damage dealer he hits the most and has the most debuffing effects; short of the cleric but he is healing and buffing too much to be debuffing at all. You can’t touch him with spells and he saves on everything. I am scared to look at his sheet and see that he might be a huge cheater but I don’t think so. He has ring of enlarge he had made for him so it ups he attack damage and go figure he is tattooed and wearing a monks belt. He is a power house. He is a big beat stick. I must admit he can be beat to death but as long as he isn’t alone and has some support from anything (buff, heal, support damage. ANYTHING) things die before he does. On another note I think anyone who is foolish enough to give someone in their mission exalted feats AND Sainthood, shouldn’t be allow to DM unless they really take it to the player. Sainthood is only for the most holy honorable and truly good characters. Any slip even unintentional ones should cost them their sainthood. Sainthood and exalted vows ARE supposed to be “overpowered” because their balance is supposed to be their difficulty to play the role.
red-gregor 12-29-05, 11:38 AM	If you all think that monks cannot be broken you need to play with my group. We have a monk in the group that is the main damage dealer (over two fighters: One charging long spear guy, other two weapon fighter with big hits). On top of being the biggest damage dealer he hits the most and has the most debuffing effects; short of the cleric but he is healing and buffing too much to be debuffing at all. You can’t touch him with spells and he saves on everything. I am scared to look at his sheet and see that he might be a huge cheater but I don’t think so. He has ring of enlarge he had made for him so it ups he attack damage and go figure he is tattooed and wearing a monks belt. He is a power house. He is a big beat stick. I must admit he can be beat to death but as long as he isn’t alone and has some support from anything (buff, heal, support damage. ANYTHING) things die before he does. On another note I think anyone who is foolish enough to give someone in their mission exalted feats AND Sainthood, shouldn’t be allow to DM unless they really take it to the player. Sainthood is only for the most holy honorable and truly good characters. Any slip even unintentional ones should cost them their sainthood. Sainthood and exalted vows ARE supposed to be “overpowered” because their balance is supposed to be their difficulty to play the role. i understand what you mean about the vows my dm was the one that told me about the broken monk but the bad thing about it is that you cant kill meaning ur enemies can re group but for those that say monks are overpowered yes they can be and they could also be underpowered just dependes on how u biuld the char
Xabre 12-29-05, 11:45 AM	Monks with Vow of Poverty CAN kill things... and since they can't wear armor and don't need to wield weapons, they're the best class to take that vow. if you give them vow of nonviolence and vow of peace also, they're just plain rediculous... and if you use Flaws, you can start with something along the lines of a 25 AC, with 'decent' rolls. It's the only way I can think of to truly break the monk, because the Vow of Poverty requires a sacrfice that Monks already take; not having magical items.
Nitan 12-29-05, 12:04 PM	It's the only way I can think of to truly break the monk, because the Vow of Poverty requires a sacrfice that Monks already take; not having magical items. You sir, are incorrect. A Monk benefits from magic items as much as any other character does.
Xabre 12-29-05, 12:07 PM	You sir, are incorrect. A Monk benefits from magic items as much as any other character does. I misstated. But they need less than the rest, since they can't use armor, and probably won't use weapons. Yeah, they'd use all other kinds of magic items, but the VoP for THEM is the smallest sacrifice.
Thorak 12-29-05, 01:59 PM	Hmm. Don't quite know how my edit turned into a double post, but it did.
Thorak 12-29-05, 02:10 PM	ya the wizard goes to stab you he has barly a chance to hit you he cast true strike all i have to do is subdule damage if he dies from it all it wasnt my fault and his weapon that he does to stab me with has to make a save or be destroyed By "backstab", I meant more as in "betray", rather than literally stabbing you in the back with a dagger. He just waits until you're not adjacent, and casts Dimension Door. And then starts flinging spells again. And if you capture him again, he pulls the mercy flag again. Being Exalted sucks. If your enemies figure out what a git you are, they'll take advantage of you all over the place. That's why Exalted powers are so powerful; without them, being Exalted would just be tying a sign to your back labelling you as "Doormat". I can only think of one way to really break the Monk. Vow of Poverty. Wizard casts Fly. VoP monk looks at the wizard he is now utterly incapable of reaching, since there is no way for him to be capable of flight, unless he has a friend who casts a spell or uses an item on him. Monks with Vow of Poverty CAN kill things... and since they can't wear armor and don't need to wield weapons, they're the best class to take that vow. Nope. Druids. Spells to make up for any possible hole that would normally be filled with magic items, and all the VoP bonuses carry over into every Wildshape form. Sign me up. Have yet to find a DM silly enough to let me get away with it. Also, nearly no spells with material components that cost anything. So unlike the other primary casters, you're less restricted by the Vow. For instance, it's debatable whether a VoP cleric can even own a holy symbol, necessary for most of their spellcasting. if you give them vow of nonviolence and vow of peace also, they're just plain rediculous... and if you use Flaws, you can start with something along the lines of a 25 AC, with 'decent' rolls. And? Vows of Nonviolence and Peace also mean you can never deal actual lethal damage, or kill anything. And punishes any of your allies who dispatch a wounded foe. Not to mention, this is three feats. You can't start with this, at level 1. At best, you'd be level 2, and a Human, and using your first bonus Exalted feat to get Vow of Peace. And prior to that, you had a 19 AC or so, I assume. My halfling archer had a 19 AC to start, and he didn't have any of those drawbacks. I misstated. But they need less than the rest, since they can't use armor, and probably won't use weapons. Yeah, they'd use all other kinds of magic items, but the VoP for THEM is the smallest sacrifice. If your monk doesn't use weapons, then he's falling way behind in damage. I guarantee. Their unarmed damage makes unarmed strikes not suck outrageously at high levels. Just suck a fair bit. They won't ever compare to a similarly-leveled Fighter's greatsword. As for armor, a monk who wants a high AC spends more on defensive gear than anyone else, because he can't wear armor. Not wearing armor is a penalty, not a boon. VoP gives them +20 AC, compared to without. +10 AC bonus, +3 Deflection, and if they put the +8 and +6 bonuses to abilities in Wisdom and Dex, that's another +4 and +3. This is at 19th level. A monk without VoP, with the same base abilities, can get two +6 items, Bracers of Armor +8, Amulet of Natural Armor +5, and a Ring of Protection +5. And now has a +24 AC. If you want the Amulet of Mighty Fists, you can replace the amulet above with anything else you like. Even without it, you're still at +19, and have plenty of slots to add more AC. And are only 1 AC behind a maxxed-out VoP character. A monk does better with gear than with VoP, every time. It's a decent character for a concept, but powergamey, not especially.
red-gregor 12-29-05, 09:08 PM	[QUOTE=Thorak]By "backstab", I meant more as in "betray", rather than literally stabbing you in the back with a dagger. He just waits until you're not adjacent, and casts Dimension Door. And then starts flinging spells again. And if you capture him again, he pulls the mercy flag again. Being Exalted sucks. If your enemies figure out what a git you are, they'll take advantage of you all over the place. That's why Exalted powers are so powerful; without them, being Exalted would just be tying a sign to your back labelling you as "Doormat". Wizard casts Fly. VoP monk looks at the wizard he is now utterly incapable of reaching, since there is no way for him to be capable of flight, unless he has a friend who casts a spell or uses an item on him. ok the wizard cast fly fine i jump up to him and grapple him he will never break free i get a good amount of damage if some way he breaks free,stupid ones,oh be for this i would stun him every round and have my way with the caster if he runs from me and starts nukeing i full run at him one round he dd he cant cast that round soon he will run out then i win
danielinthewolvesden 12-29-05, 09:30 PM	According to The Consensus: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=369436 the Monk comes in at 17th out of 30. With, as serow_#R points out, the Druid (hands down the most powerful) Wizard and Cleric being the "big three". Please folks- let's not turn this into a VoP debate. That's not what the OP is asking about, and any such debate belongs in the BoED forum in any case- just for this very reason, amoung others. Please?
Thorak 12-29-05, 11:33 PM	ok the wizard cast fly fine i jump up to him and grapple him he will never break free i get a good amount of damage if some way he breaks free,stupid ones,oh be for this i would stun him every round and have my way with the caster Since Fly grants a flight speed of 60', I don't see why the caster is being stupid enough to stay anywhere close to the ground, since he can cast and rise 60' that same round. And the DC on a 50' high jump, granting that you might stretch the remaining 10' yourself, is 200. Yup. DC 200. I really doubt the +24 you get from your increased monk movement is any help at all. Even with all the bonuses you can get and a natural 20, I'm guessing you fall short by at least 30 feet. Not to mention that Freedom of Movement is basically an auto-win on grapples that's relatively easy for the caster to have ready. And that Dimension Door can be done while grappled with ease. If it's quickened, like a lot of smart Wizards do, it's even a get out of grapple free; you don't get any chance to stop it whatsoever. if he runs from me and starts nukeing i full run at him one round he dd he cant cast that round soon he will run out then i win Did you miss the fact that he cast Fly, and is out of reach? He doesn't need to dimension door away, you're on the ground and as much threat to him as a blind three legged mule. It's kind of hard to win when you can't even reach the opponent.
Ramacass 12-30-05, 02:46 AM	[QUOTE=Thorak]By "backstab", I meant more as in "betray", rather than literally stabbing you in the back with a dagger. He just waits until you're not adjacent, and casts Dimension Door. And then starts flinging spells again. And if you capture him again, he pulls the mercy flag again. Being Exalted sucks. If your enemies figure out what a git you are, they'll take advantage of you all over the place. That's why Exalted powers are so powerful; without them, being Exalted would just be tying a sign to your back labelling you as "Doormat". And? Vows of Nonviolence and Peace also mean you can never deal actual lethal damage, or kill anything. And punishes any of your allies who dispatch a wounded foe.[/end quote] What an interesting misunderstanding of the the rules, the feats, and what it means to be exalted.
Ramacass 12-30-05, 03:05 AM	On another note I think anyone who is foolish enough to give someone in their mission exalted feats AND Sainthood, shouldn’t be allow to DM unless they really take it to the player. Sainthood is only for the most holy honorable and truly good characters. Any slip even unintentional ones should cost them their sainthood. Sainthood and exalted vows ARE supposed to be “overpowered” because their balance is supposed to be their difficulty to play the role. I think you must have misspoke because you need at least three exalted feats before you can take sainthood. :confused: Yes I agree a character must be of the highest moral standards to gain sainthood and that's exactly what my character is. We play in Ebberon and My monk is associated with an organization that my paladin built from the ground up that runs a food distrabution program to several thosand people per day in Sharn with new locations starting up in New Seer. We also have an orphanage, a clothes distrapution program for the winter, a free medical clinic, a work-training program so that people don't become dependant on only handout's, and a safehouse for runaways and battered women. On top of that my paladin who has not taken the vow of poverty or sainthood lives on 10gp a month for personal spending money over and above that which he spends on adventuring gear for his battle against evil. He does this not out of any personal benefit just because he thinks it's the right thing.
Thorak 12-30-05, 07:37 AM	What an interesting misunderstanding of the the rules, the feats, and what it means to be exalted. Kindly read the BoED. Specifically, where the Vow of Nonviolence enforces a penalty on any ally who kills a helpless foe. And which says you can never deal lethal damage without breaking the Vow. Those two parts are straight out of the feat itself; "Your purity is so great that any ally of yours who slays a helpless or defenseless foe within 120 feet of you feels great remorse. Your ally takes a -1 morale penalty on his attack rolls . . ." "You may not deal real damage or ability damage to such foes through spells or weapons, though you may deal nonlethal damage." Page 47 of the BoED for both quotes. As for the other part, about mercy, kindly read the Mercy section of the BoED, pages 7-8. Where it specifically says: "Good characters must offer mercy and accept surrender no matter how many times villains might betray that kindness or escape from captivity to continue their evil deeds." Considering the rules explicitly support me, I'll stand by what they say, rather than your apparently completely incorrect assumptions as to what they should be. Perhaps you should browse through the BoED sometime, so you're not ramming your foot down your throat.
Ramacass 12-30-05, 08:17 AM	[QUOTE=Ramacass][QUOTE=Thorak]By "backstab", I meant more as in "betray", rather than literally stabbing you in the back with a dagger. He just waits until you're not adjacent, and casts Dimension Door. And then starts flinging spells again. And if you capture him again, he pulls the mercy flag again. [end quote] The problem here is with, like I said, the interpritation of the rules. By this interpritation of the rules and exalted character could never stop an evil character from doing evil deeds. Far from it, my exalted character doesn't have to kill a murderer to stop him from commiting his crime. Lets assume a mass murderer begs for mercy, fair enough, my exalted character spares his life and binds him to be brought to trial and sent to prison. If my prisoner were a mage he would be restrained appropriatly to stop him from casting spells. How does that make my exalted character a sucker or a doormat? [quote] And? Vows of Nonviolence and Peace also mean you can never deal actual lethal damage, or kill anything. And punishes any of your allies who dispatch a wounded foe.[/end quote] As far as this you lumped two different feats together vow of nonviolence forbids you from dealing lethal damage or killing humanoids and monsterous humanoids but does not say you can never deal lethal damage or kill anything.
Thorak 12-30-05, 01:20 PM	The problem here is with, like I said, the interpritation of the rules. By this interpritation of the rules and exalted character could never stop an evil character from doing evil deeds. Far from it, my exalted character doesn't have to kill a murderer to stop him from commiting his crime. Lets assume a mass murderer begs for mercy, fair enough, my exalted character spares his life and binds him to be brought to trial and sent to prison. If my prisoner were a mage he would be restrained appropriatly to stop him from casting spells. How does that make my exalted character a sucker or a doormat? That doesn't. The assumption that the mage will let you bind him appropriately is. Or that he won't escape somehow. The point is, if someone begs for mercy, you can't kill them. Even if they've already begged for mercy three times before, and turned around and stabbed you in the back each time. If you're Exalted, your choice is to let them keep backstabbing you, or do the convenient thing and just kill them. Which may still be perfectly Good, I'll note. Just not Exalted. Being Exalted is intended to be harder than being a Paladin. As far as this you lumped two different feats together vow of nonviolence forbids you from dealing lethal damage or killing humanoids and monsterous humanoids but does not say you can never deal lethal damage or kill anything. Yes, I lumped two together. Because we were talking about having both. Not at home so I can't check, but I believe Vow of Peace extends that restriction to everything, not just humanoids and monstrous humanoids. Especially since I know it repeats something like that, which would be useless as a restriction if it was the same as Vow of Nonviolence, because that is a prereq for Vow of Peace. I stand by my statements. You claimed they were a "misunderstanding" of the rules, but the rules as I'm citing them support my case more than yours.
Sir Gummibaerchen 12-30-05, 01:36 PM	Could you please get back on topic, which is the (questionably) game-breaking power of the monk. And not the (unquestionable) game-breaking possibilities of the Book of Exalted Deeds. I think the most terrible thing about the monk is that he cannot circumvent the DR of many creatures. One of his most important class abilities, the unarmed strike, cannot be used to fight creatures with DR x/Cold Iron or x/Silver efficiently. And alway carrying around a +1 metalline kama kind of sucks, when you want to be cool as Bruce Lee ;) .
Rhomphaia 12-30-05, 02:43 PM	Just as a real quick clarification to hopefully put the subject to rest. Vow of Non-Violence means you cannot deal lethal or ability score damage, negative levels or death to humanoid or monstrous humanoid creatures. Vow of Peace extends this restriction to all living things. However, constructs and undead are still free game (but good luck causing negative levels or ability score damage to these foes). Anyway, the way I look at it, there really is no way to break a monk unless you actually break game rules or make use of a house rule a DM foolishly allowed (like a thread I read where a DM allowed a monk to be proficient in a spiked chain and to use his monk abilities with it, silly DM). The best monk I have seen was a core-only monk, and even then, she was still a little behind the fighter in combat capability. Beware of using splat books for monk feats and abilities, as these tend to quickly become one-trick ponies, using the same tactic over and over again that will eventually become trumped by every foe you face. It's no fun to play a character who is now consistently useless when they were once consistently useful. Probably the best way to play a monk is to stick to basics. Increase your defense and offense through feats. Namely Dodge, Weapon Focus, COmbat Expertise and Power Attack will all benefit a monk. This may make for a less flashy character, but a very adaptive one that should work out well, but still be about as overpowered as a Bard with no ranks in UMD or Diplomacy.
Thanatos-Omega 12-30-05, 03:21 PM	Without denying anything the monk is annoying. As a DM i lothe my players using it but as a fellow player, I think they are a bit, BIT underrated. why? welp I just think they lack flavor, the talk about exalted feats is fine but remember the exlated book really needs the vile darkness book to look good and seem to have a place I can't say i know a dm who allows one without having the other as a countermeasure of sorts. when it comes to flavor class wise all my players hate it it's so bland and that's saying a lot it seems like every other monk player pulls off a sub par role play as some homely temple drop out or some weisened uber martial artist but those are really the only 2 viable ways to use em role play wise anyway. but i digress, my ( and my local teams) big issues are the lack of PrC's for the monk, people take em but that danged limit makes people lothe to multiclass in new ways and even harder to find a solid PrC. being a huge creative DM and Player i loike to have a good number of viable possibilities in my games and for my PC's and with the monk you really don't have the choice. nope not broken but lacking in some flavor areas without a doubt. :thinks:
JTalbain 12-30-05, 06:49 PM	I think that the Monk is far too stat-dependent to really be considered a top-tier class. I personally love the monk, both for soloing and for team play, but often find that I can't take true advantage of the class features which make the monk "overpowered" in some people's eyes. To truly take advantage of everything the Monk has to offer, you need some pretty crazy stats, definitely higher than the stats possible with a point buy system. But I find that being willing to forego some of the Monk's abilities can make you a slightly more capable character, with different options at different levels. For instance, the Monk Unarmed Strikes are very nifty, and at higher levels can do decent damage. To get the most out of them however, you need an Amulet of Mighty Fists, which is terribly expensive at 6000gp for a +1. The enhancement bonus, however, is much more necessary for the to-hit bonus than the damage bonus if the monk is going to be a front line fighter, because of the Monk's medium BAB progression. So at low levels, you could just get yourself a Masterwork Weapon for less than a tenth the cost and skip fighting unarmed. That option just gets better as time goes on. Spend 24k for an AoMF +2 or 18k on a +2 Flaming Nunchaku, keep your flurry, and do as much damage per hit as a 12th level monk fighting unarmed? At the end, you can have a +5 AoMF, or something like a +5 Nunchaku of Speed for 22k less. Really the only thing unique about AoMF is the inability to be disarmed, unless of course someone just takes a -4 to their disarm check and snatches the Amulet from around your neck. Wouldn't that suck?
JTalbain 12-30-05, 07:26 PM	Another possibility to consider: ever try playing a Monk as a ranged combatant? If you thought monks were annoying before, you ain't seen nothing yet. Imagine trying to pin down an archer who's so nimble and mobile that he can leap into a tree to begin firing at you, or climb up a wall at a speed faster than you can charge. If you manage to scale the wall, he jumps down, takes no damage, and continues his onslaught. When the wizard traps him in a Forcecage, he Abundant Steps away. He absolutely abuses Shot on the Run. If you attempt to fire back at him, he has both a high defense and the ability to AUTOMATICALLY deflect one of your shots a round. He proves highly resistant to anything the wizard throws his way. And finally when you manage to catch up with him, you find you must still deal with his defenses, and do so before he merely tumbles away and repeats the process. That sound like fun to anyone else? :cool: If someone wanted to go with this concept, I'd recommend playing an Elf, both for the Dexterity bonus, and the proficiency with Longbows. Also as an Elf, you can enjoy the cover of night, fighting normally, whereas anyone not lucky enough to possess extraordinary vision abilities takes a miss chance on any attacks aimed at you due to your concealment.
red-gregor 12-30-05, 08:30 PM	ok i was just saying the monk witht the right feats could be as good as any other class and u are right i am wrong i forgot about the exalted feat combo so ya a aomf and a minks belt are my favorite things i personly like the monks
Kage_Ryu 12-30-05, 08:52 PM	Another possibility to consider: ever try playing a Monk as a ranged combatant? If you thought monks were annoying before, you ain't seen nothing yet. Imagine trying to pin down an archer who's so nimble and mobile that he can leap into a tree to begin firing at you, or climb up a wall at a speed faster than you can charge. If you manage to scale the wall, he jumps down, takes no damage, and continues his onslaught. When the wizard traps him in a Forcecage, he Abundant Steps away. He absolutely abuses Shot on the Run. If you attempt to fire back at him, he has both a high defense and the ability to AUTOMATICALLY deflect one of your shots a round. He proves highly resistant to anything the wizard throws his way. And finally when you manage to catch up with him, you find you must still deal with his defenses, and do so before he merely tumbles away and repeats the process. That sound like fun to anyone else? :cool: If someone wanted to go with this concept, I'd recommend playing an Elf, both for the Dexterity bonus, and the proficiency with Longbows. Also as an Elf, you can enjoy the cover of night, fighting normally, whereas anyone not lucky enough to possess extraordinary vision abilities takes a miss chance on any attacks aimed at you due to your concealment. Holy crap! I never even thought about that!... I better not tell my players XD Personally, overall I think that any player used in the right situation is overpowered. Really it's up to the dm to challenge that player and overcome their abilities, while still making a rounded out battle that everyone is useful in. Monks aren't particularly good at taking damage later on as they are at giving it, take advantage of that, etc. I realise that many of the abilities and possible feats used could make a character "Invulnerable", but in a fighting situation between a fighter and a monk, my bet is still on the fighter - regardless of that really cheap maneuver described above.
Nephlite 12-30-05, 09:14 PM	By "backstab", I meant more as in "betray", rather than literally stabbing you in the back with a dagger. He just waits until you're not adjacent, and casts Dimension Door. And then starts flinging spells again. And if you capture him again, he pulls the mercy flag again. Being Exalted sucks. If your enemies figure out what a git you are, they'll take advantage of you all over the place. That's why Exalted powers are so powerful; without them, being Exalted would just be tying a sign to your back labelling you as "Doormat". Only if you don't read the Book of Exalted Deedas and just assume. You can only pull suurender/mercy once. If you bereak your word, he can kill you and stay exalted. It is Vow of non-violence I think (which is a exalted feat). So try it, Mr. wiz, I might just kill you. You can't pull same trick twice. :D Wizard casts Fly. VoP monk looks at the wizard he is now utterly incapable of reaching, since there is no way for him to be capable of flight, unless he has a friend who casts a spell or uses an item on him. Jumping works just fine. Remember, Monks have that asa class skill and get a boost to jumping due to speed higher than normal. Nope. Druids. Spells to make up for any possible hole that would normally be filled with magic items, and all the VoP bonuses carry over into every Wildshape form. Sign me up. Have yet to find a DM silly enough to let me get away with it. Also, nearly no spells with material components that cost anything. So unlike the other primary casters, you're less restricted by the Vow. For instance, it's debatable whether a VoP cleric can even own a holy symbol, necessary for most of their spellcasting. VOP Druids can't use Holy Symbols...so most of spells not working... But Druids are rather overpowered... And? Vows of Nonviolence and Peace also mean you can never deal actual lethal damage, or kill anything. And punishes any of your allies who dispatch a wounded foe. Actually Vow of Non-violence says no lethal to humaniods. Only Vow of peace says to anyone. Silly, Thorak, you can't pull mercy card twice on Exalted and expect him to accept it. He can, but nothing not even the DM can force him to. At least if you read the book again.
Thorak 12-30-05, 09:15 PM	Another possibility to consider: ever try playing a Monk as a ranged combatant? If you thought monks were annoying before, you ain't seen nothing yet. Imagine trying to pin down an archer who's so nimble and mobile that he can leap into a tree to begin firing at you, or climb up a wall at a speed faster than you can charge. If you manage to scale the wall, he jumps down, takes no damage, and continues his onslaught. When the wizard traps him in a Forcecage, he Abundant Steps away. He absolutely abuses Shot on the Run. If you attempt to fire back at him, he has both a high defense and the ability to AUTOMATICALLY deflect one of your shots a round. He proves highly resistant to anything the wizard throws his way. And finally when you manage to catch up with him, you find you must still deal with his defenses, and do so before he merely tumbles away and repeats the process. That sound like fun to anyone else? :cool: If someone wanted to go with this concept, I'd recommend playing an Elf, both for the Dexterity bonus, and the proficiency with Longbows. Also as an Elf, you can enjoy the cover of night, fighting normally, whereas anyone not lucky enough to possess extraordinary vision abilities takes a miss chance on any attacks aimed at you due to your concealment. Another non-monk angle on this concept I've considered is playing a Horizon Walker. Dimension Door every 1d4 rounds by level 11 (level 6 HW)? Sign me the heck up.
Vangerdahast 12-30-05, 10:52 PM	Monk + Death + Reincarnate as Brown Bear + Vow of Poverty + Forsaker PrC Now that´s nasty. And the three first steps already happened in my campaign.
Thorak 12-30-05, 11:23 PM	Only if you don't read the Book of Exalted Deedas and just assume. You can only pull suurender/mercy once. If you bereak your word, he can kill you and stay exalted. It is Vow of non-violence I think (which is a exalted feat). So try it, Mr. wiz, I might just kill you. You can't pull same trick twice. :D I already cited this in the thread, but apparently you missed it. BoED, page 7; "Good characters must offer mercy and accept surrender no matter how many times villains might betray that kindness or escape from captivity to continue their evil deeds." Note the latter part. "No matter how many times". I can pull it dozens of times, and each time I ask for mercy, you either give it, or give up being Exalted. Right there in the book. Jumping works just fine. Remember, Monks have that asa class skill and get a boost to jumping due to speed higher than normal. Right. So you're level 20, with a 90' speed, and 23 ranks in jump. With a nat 20, that gets your check up to about 67, with a +10 Strength modifier 77. And the DC was 200, to jump 50' up. But I guess you glossed over that, too. The DC on a high jump is the height, in feet, times 4. Good luck finding that other +123 to Jump you'd need to even have a prayer of catching the mage. VOP Druids can't use Holy Symbols...so most of spells not working... But Druids are rather overpowered... "The default divine focus for a druid or ranger is a sprig of mistletoe or holly." Page 174 of the PHB. And note that holly and mistletoe, as presented on the equipment chart on page 128, right above holy symbols, have no cost. I don't know what kind of druid you're talking about that would ever want or need a holy symbol, but it ain't a D&D druid. Actually Vow of Non-violence says no lethal to humaniods. Only Vow of peace says to anyone. And you'll note I opened that sentence with "Vows of Nonviolence and Peace . . ." I was sort of talking about both of them, but if you want to try and claim I was making a mistake and only referring to one of them, in clear contradiction of the quote you yourself quoted, go ahead. Makes as much sense as the rest of this. Silly, Thorak, you can't pull mercy card twice on Exalted and expect him to accept it. He can, but nothing not even the DM can force him to. At least if you read the book again. I don't know which Book of Exalted Deeds you've been reading, but it isn't the WotC one. See above; the section on Mercy on page 7 explicitly says you have to always accept mercy, even if they've betrayed you before, regardless of how many times they do it.
Ramacass 12-31-05, 12:35 AM	I already cited this in the thread, but apparently you missed it. BoED, page 7; "Good characters must offer mercy and accept surrender no matter how many times villains might betray that kindness or escape from captivity to continue their evil deeds.". He's right about this but I never contended this point. The fault in Thorak's argument as far as I'm concerned is that in this hypothetical battle between an exalted character and an evil mage is that Thorak says all he has to do is beg for mercy and then I have to spare his life(true) but then as soon as my back is turned he can just teleport away and or betray me or something hence in his own words being exalted "sucks" and exalted characters are doormats. The problem is that if he is begging for mercy that means he is defeated and thus he would be bound and jailed. When an evil character begs for mercy the exalted character doesn't just say"ok well that's settled" turn around and go home. You say thorak that the fault in my logic is that the wizard would 1) let his or herself be bound, I believe I covered that above. 2)the wizard couldn't escape. Yes there is always a chance the wizard could escape but let's hear your escape plan. You are bound, gagged and deprived of all your spell componets. What's your first move? Seriously I would like to know because maybe you have a plan that would work and I'd give you some serious props if you could, you seem like a clever player so let's hear it. [/QUOTE] Right. So you're level 20, with a 90' speed, and 23 ranks in jump. With a nat 20, that gets your check up to about 67, with a +10 Strength modifier 77. And the DC was 200, to jump 50' up. But I guess you glossed over that, too. The DC on a high jump is the height, in feet, times 4. Good luck finding that other +123 to Jump you'd need to even have a prayer of catching the mage.[/QUOTE] actually the dc would be 80 I think because if I remember correctly fly gives you a movement of 60 but you can rise at one half and decend at double speed. I may be wrong but would someone check. Also this Hypothetical situation is pretty devoid of details for example are there sourronding trees or buildings or rocks that the monk could climb and then jump from? is there a cielling and if so how high? is it day or night? But in this featurless plain my tactic would be, if I didn't beat innish, would be to tactically retreat or take cover until they fly ran out. [/QUOTE] "The default divine focus for a druid or ranger is a sprig of mistletoe or holly." Page 174 of the PHB. And note that holly and mistletoe, as presented on the equipment chart on page 128, right above holy symbols, have no cost. I don't know what kind of druid you're talking about that would ever want or need a holy symbol, but it ain't a D&D druid.[/QUOTE] This is an interesting point, but i'm not sure if the vow of poverty resticts owning things with gp value or just owning things beyond the few things listed under the feat. Under the feat I believe it restricts you to owning a short list of things and I don't believe mistle toe or holly is one of them. Maybe someone with the book could quote it? [/QUOTE] And you'll note I opened that sentence with "Vows of Nonviolence and Peace . . ." I was sort of talking about both of them, but if you want to try and claim I was making a mistake and only referring to one of them, in clear contradiction of the quote you yourself quoted, go ahead. Makes as much sense as the rest of this.[/QUOTE] Maybe a little harsh Thorak? As far as the breaking a monk thing my main attraction to a vow of poverty monk is that it goes well with the character concept of the monk. I don't know about you but I don't like the idea of a monk jingiling around head to toe carrying heaps of magical items. It just goes against my whole concept of a monastic character. Also that archer monk concept was nice, Thanks.
Thorak 12-31-05, 07:24 AM	He's right about this but I never contended this point. The fault in Thorak's argument as far as I'm concerned is that in this hypothetical battle between an exalted character and an evil mage is that Thorak says all he has to do is beg for mercy and then I have to spare his life(true) but then as soon as my back is turned he can just teleport away and or betray me or something hence in his own words being exalted "sucks" and exalted characters are doormats. The problem is that if he is begging for mercy that means he is defeated and thus he would be bound and jailed. When an evil character begs for mercy the exalted character doesn't just say"ok well that's settled" turn around and go home. The mage would be begging for mercy before you got a chance to bind him. It doesn't mean he's defeated, necessarily, it may mean he's about to abuse your moral code for his own benefit, knowing you won't kill him. You might be about to try to bind and gag him, but that's the point; you haven't yet. You say thorak that the fault in my logic is that the wizard would 1) let his or herself be bound, I believe I covered that above. 2)the wizard couldn't escape. Yes there is always a chance the wizard could escape but let's hear your escape plan. You are bound, gagged and deprived of all your spell componets. What's your first move? Seriously I would like to know because maybe you have a plan that would work and I'd give you some serious props if you could, you seem like a clever player so let's hear it. Silenced Dimension Door. A relatively standard defensive spell, since it also protects against Silence type effects. Only component is Verbal, so making it Silenced means all I need to cast the spell is to be conscious. So you tie him up, then whenever he wants, he blinks and the ropes and gag fall to the ground, and he's somewhere within a few hundred feat, probably behind some nice cover he spotted, and is casting more spells. Actually the dc would be 80 I think because if I remember correctly fly gives you a movement of 60 but you can rise at one half and decend at double speed. I may be wrong but would someone check. Also this Hypothetical situation is pretty devoid of details for example are there sourronding trees or buildings or rocks that the monk could climb and then jump from? is there a cielling and if so how high? is it day or night? But in this featurless plain my tactic would be, if I didn't beat innish, would be to tactically retreat or take cover until they fly ran out. You're right, it's rise at half speed, and I missed that. Still, given every advantage, the monk in question would have trouble making that leap, anyway. And the problem with you beating a tactical retreat is that it hands initiative to the mage. If he saves a Teleport spell, he can just bug out of there whenever he likes, and he can do his damndest to kill you before he does so. This is an interesting point, but i'm not sure if the vow of poverty resticts owning things with gp value or just owning things beyond the few things listed under the feat. Under the feat I believe it restricts you to owning a short list of things and I don't believe mistle toe or holly is one of them. Maybe someone with the book could quote it? While I see your point, I'm not sure if I really see something like holly or mistletoe as a "material possession". It doesn't have a cost. It's just a plant you picked. Maybe a little harsh Thorak? Maybe, but I hate repeating myself, and I'd already dealt with most of his points in earlier posts. As far as the breaking a monk thing my main attraction to a vow of poverty monk is that it goes well with the character concept of the monk. I don't know about you but I don't like the idea of a monk jingiling around head to toe carrying heaps of magical items. It just goes against my whole concept of a monastic character. I agree, conceptually, it's great. I also think a VoP cleric would be a great concept, but it's horribly screwed by that holy symbol restriction. I just don't agree that VoP is actually, from a powergaming perspective, all that good for most characters. The only reason it's overpoweringly good for a Druid is that, unlike most magical items, all those benefits carry over to the Wildshape forms. And their spells generally make up for the aspects which aren't covered by VoP. Monks, while great conceptually with it, don't have that same kind of advantage. I mean, they're better than a VoP Fighter, but a non-VoP monk will tend to be better than the VoP monk. Whereas a VoP Druid can in many ways outpower a non-VoP Druid.
red-gregor 12-31-05, 08:37 AM	[QUOTE=Thorak]The mage would be begging for mercy before you got a chance to bind him. It doesn't mean he's defeated, necessarily, it may mean he's about to abuse your moral code for his own benefit, knowing you won't kill him. You might be about to try to bind and gag him, but that's the point; you haven't yet. Silenced Dimension Door. A relatively standard defensive spell, since it also protects against Silence type effects. Only component is Verbal, so making it Silenced means all I need to cast the spell is to be conscious. So you tie him up, then whenever he wants, he blinks and the ropes and gag fall to the ground, and he's somewhere within a few hundred feat, probably behind some nice cover he spotted, and is casting more spells yes but u have to walk throught the portal and ur bonds would still be on u they wouldnt fall of u would have to make a str check or a escape artist which none of these the wizard has and i dont think the monk would tie u up and not give u over the the town and say u are a spell caster so u would have a wizard readying a despell just in case. and plus i belive that dm has some movement involved so u have a persentage of falling your persentage You're right, it's rise at half speed, and I missed that. Still, given every advantage, the monk in question would have trouble making that leap, anyway. And the problem with you beating a tactical retreat is that it hands initiative to the mage. If he saves a Teleport spell, he can just bug out of there whenever he likes, and he can do his damndest to kill you before he does so. this whole thing we are talking about just depends on what happened before and where are they and all that so this realy has no point and while subduel damage is subduel half of all of it is real so i could accidently kill the wizard will trying to capture him and i would be screwed
Thorak 12-31-05, 10:52 AM	yes but u have to walk throught the portal and ur bonds would still be on u they wouldnt fall of u would have to make a str check or a escape artist which none of these the wizard has and i dont think the monk would tie u up and not give u over the the town and say u are a spell caster so u would have a wizard readying a despell just in case. and plus i belive that dm has some movement involved so u have a persentage of falling your persentage Dimension door doesn't create a portal, doesn't require you to walk through anything, or any of that. And you don't have to take along objects on your person, if you don't want to, so not only does the mage vanish, the ropes you tied him with stay behind. And saying you can beat a wizard by having a wizard standing by ready to dispel is a new height of ridiculousness. How does another wizard being able to dispel in any way make the VoP monk able to take out a mage? That's the other wizard doing the taking out, the monk is irrelevant. this whole thing we are talking about just depends on what happened before and where are they and all that so this realy has no point and while subduel damage is subduel half of all of it is real so i could accidently kill the wizard will trying to capture him and i would be screwed What game system are you playing by? No part of nonlethal damage is "real", it's all nonlethal. And no, you can't accidentally kill anyone with nonlethal damage. It's non lethal. Literally, not deadly. You can reduce the mage to -10,000hp of nonlethal damage, and he'll be in a coma for days before he recovers, but you won't kill him. And while the situation is based on what's available, a mage is much more able to adapt to any given situation. Especially underground. Mages have spells to either wall off tunnels or meld into the walls, or magically teleport around. The VoP monk has his own two feet. Not saying a monk can't kill a mage. They've got a better chance than most. But taking VoP screws you. It makes you more resistant to magic, but handicaps you of having any of the other abilities magical items could give you that would give you the advantage you need. Instead of being a black widow spider, you're just a cockroach that's hard to hit. And this is just an aside; could you and Ramacass figure out how to close quote tags, please? It would make it easier to tell which parts of your posts are yours, and which are the parts you're quoting from me. I'm not having any trouble, but I wrote my stuff, other people might be having some problems though.
Tawkis 01-02-06, 09:28 AM	He just waits until you're not adjacent, and casts Dimension Door. And then starts flinging spells again. And if you capture him again, he pulls the mercy flag again. Being Exalted sucks. If your enemies figure out what a git you are, they'll take advantage of you all over the place. That's why Exalted powers are so powerful; without them, being Exalted would just be tying a sign to your back labelling you as "Doormat". Wizard casts Fly. VoP monk looks at the wizard he is now utterly incapable of reaching, since there is no way for him to be capable of flight, unless he has a friend who casts a spell or uses an item on him. ok the wizard cast fly fine i jump up to him and grapple him he will never break free i get a good amount of damage if some way he breaks free,stupid ones,oh be for this i would stun him every round and have my way with the caster if he runs from me and starts nukeing i full run at him one round he dd he cant cast that round soon he will run out then i win Incorrect on the Mercy flag (unless you've taken VNV or V of peace?) Just because you're exalted doesn't mean you have to be stupid. An enemy who surrenders with the intention of betraying and killing you at the first opportunity isn't surrendering. If it's a wizard, the real question is why wasn't the SPC removed and the wizard bound and gagged? Tht's generally pretty good way to stop them.
Thorak 01-02-06, 01:12 PM	Incorrect on the Mercy flag (unless you've taken VNV or V of peace?) Just because you're exalted doesn't mean you have to be stupid. An enemy who surrenders with the intention of betraying and killing you at the first opportunity isn't surrendering. Don't make me quote the exact same text from the BoED again. I've already cited it twice in the thread. Exalted characters have to give mercy to those who ask for it, regardless of how many times that person may have betrayed that mercy before. If it's a wizard, the real question is why wasn't the SPC removed and the wizard bound and gagged? Tht's generally pretty good way to stop them. Right. Because the wizard's going to let you do that without trying to obliterate you first. Not to mention, a Silent Dimension Door can be cast while bound and gagged and without a spell component pouch, and is so handy at high levels I find it hard to believe a Wizard would go without it.
Lotus Crane 01-02-06, 01:34 PM	Incorrect on the Mercy flag (unless you've taken VNV or V of peace?) Just because you're exalted doesn't mean you have to be stupid. An enemy who surrenders with the intention of betraying and killing you at the first opportunity isn't surrendering. Being exalted means being honorable and kind even when you know others wont' be. It's not that an exalted character is "stupid" to act in good faith when somebody "says" they're surrendering but really isn't. In fact, most exalted characters would know that it's a trick, but still accept the "surrender" with the most compassion possible, and have faith in their abilities (or their god) to keep them safe while they try to demonstrate to their enemy that "right makes might." So in the above example, the enemy would indeed try to betray the exalted character, but then fail and be confused at why he couldn't defeat such a "trusting fool." With luck and maybe a few "redemption" Diplomacy checks, that enemy will eventually realize that the exalted character won exactly because he was so merciful. He'll have no choice but to conclude that good wins because it is good, that good is its own reward in ways evil never could be... ...and because Exalted is so much more broken than Vile. ^_~
solbergb 01-02-06, 03:00 PM	Regarding the monk-archer. Plusses: archers and monks both need str and dex. No additional MAD. Decent skill list for an archer (spot and hide are on the list, and you have the attributes to back it). Terrific defensive abilities and mobility for opening the range. Ability to threaten in melee or otherwise do significant damage without the bow when the bow won't work. Minuses: Feat requirements and 3/4 BAB. These are pretty significant, monks are feat-starved anyway and archers are feat-hungry. Plus laying down a hail of arrows needs high BAB and some of the better archery feats are BAB 6 or higher. I think this works better if you start out at level 12+, much like the Bard-archer and for a lot of the same reasons. It is not a path I'd recommend starting from level 1, unless you get extra feats via flaws, and/or fantastic attrubutes to mitigate the low BAB. My strength based monk might pick up brutal throw at some point just so his extra shuriken tosses are more likely to hit, but for him ranged combat is something he does to finish his full attack when his real opponent drops early, not a primary strategy.