Are my alternate core classes balanced? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are my alternate core classes balanced? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nephitus
09-01-04, 11:41 AM I'm working on a few alternate core classes for an upcoming campaign. The PC's will only be able to choose from these classes (which I've already talked to them about and they're okay with). Ideally, the classes should be slightly more powerful than the standard classes to fit with the campaign, but I'm somewhat concerned that they may not be balanced against each other. The classes are:

Reaper (http://67.167.144.101/~josh/reaper.pdf) - Basic fighter-type
Shadow Chanter (http://67.167.144.101/~josh/shadowchanter.pdf) - Heals party members and summons Shadows to fight for him
Shade (http://67.167.144.101/~josh/shade.pdf) - Sneaky rogue-type
Acolyte (http://67.167.144.101/~josh/acolyte.pdf) - Spellcaster that can learn other spells he sees cast

I've got a couple more in the works, but that's who I have so far. Any comments or suggestions?

Edit: In this campaign, the PC's are long-time adventurers who die due to some large catastrophe and are then commissioned by agents of Death to go backward in time and prevent the catastrophe from happening. They lose the abilities they gained during their life, and begin to train in these classes. That's why a couple of the classes are pretty much just carbon copies of standard classes with a couple things changed.
Glak
09-01-04, 12:14 PM The classes are a little bland. Further, while they may or may not be balanced according to power, they are not balanced according to how fun they are. Who would want to play a Reaper? They are at least as boring as a fighter. Give them more class skills and 4 skill points a level. I would give every class that doesn't have a broad selection of spells (not sure if that includes the acolyte) at least 4 points, you can increase the others to compensate.
Nephitus
09-01-04, 12:29 PM Increased the Reaper skill points to 4 + int and added Craft, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, and Use Rope to his class list.

Forgot to mention: There isn't much reason to choose the Reaper over the Fighter, no, but since Fighter isn't a choice in this campaign there needed to be a basic fighter-type.
Slate King
09-01-04, 12:31 PM Ok here are a few things to consider.
Reaper 10/ Weapon Master 10 Ouch, we are talking mucho damage if everything stacks.
Ok Shade is a little out there, the etheral jaunt ability is exactly why the ninja of the crecent moon was broken. And you are granting that at lv 1. Sorry bud combining sneaks with etheral jaunt is broken.
And the Acolyte is the same benefits of a sorcerer spell list without the hinderance of knowing few spells.
Sorry man I say these three (wasn't able to link to the last one) are way broken.
Nephitus
09-01-04, 12:34 PM I'm not allowing PrC's in this campaign so Reaper 10 / Weapon Master 10 won't really happen.

Why exactly was the ethereal jaunt ability broken? I haven't seen that PrC so I don't know what you're referring to.

And yes, the Acolyte is the same benefits of a sorceror spell list without the hinderance of knowing few spells. These classes aren't supposed to be in line with the core classes.

Edit: My web server was down for a few minutes which could be why you couldn't bring up the Shadow Chanter.
Slate King
09-01-04, 01:29 PM As far as the etheral jaunt question, you have one of the problems answered. That being that you require a move action to go what i assume is etheral (you only describe it as leaving the material plane) The second problem is that you are granting a free sneak attack every time he phases in and out. It is a little over powered for a 1st level character.
I was able to load up the shadow chanter. I have a couple suggestions with it. First, a shadow is a CR 5 (i think) creature. Do not give it to a 1st level character. Second, you can't grant a dispel magic (purge) without a save. At least not at tenth level. Last, please reword recall. You can't mean a true res (no exp penalty for regaining life) that can be used in battle but only grants a couple d10 hp.
Slate King
09-01-04, 01:31 PM but against each other, they are all equally overpowered..
Nephitus
09-01-04, 01:46 PM Like I said in the first post, they're all supposed to be a little overpowered. It's not going to be a particularly long campaign, and I'll adjust the battles they get into to make them be challenging (low-level grunts will be using spells against the players, and they will likely be under attack very often).

The shadow that the shadow chanter summons isn't the same as the shadow given in the MM. The SC's shadow has only one (melee) attack and serves no purpose other than dealing out damage and taking hits. As for recall, that one does need a bit of explaining - in this campaign, as the players are all already dead, they can't really die again - they just return to the afterlife and then have to make their way back to the material realm. That takes a lot of time, and forces the remaining players to fend for themselves while their other member is away. Recall lets the shadow chanter return the missing player immediately - which now that I think about it, that is pretty overpowered even for this campaign so I'll probably impose another sort of in-game limit to that as well.

As for this -
You would have a campaign world without those two classes because no one would be dumb enough to take them.

I do have a campaign world without those two classes, at least for the PC's. If you'll look back to my original post, and then the post I made before this one, the players will only be allowed to select from the classes I'm making up here.

For the Shade - the free sneak attack (Phase Attack) is only allowed immediately after phasing into the material realm (never while phasing out) and can only be done a maximum of 4 times per day. Also, he doesn't get the Phase Attack ability until 7th level, and can then only use it once per day.
Nephitus
09-01-04, 01:49 PM I've updated the Shadow Chanter to add a Will save (DC 15 + WIS) to the Purge ability.

Edit: Also added ability score damage (1d4 to all abilities for 1d8 rounds) and a 1-round Daze to the Recall ability.
Slate King
09-01-04, 01:58 PM I reread after i posted, and edited my post.
If these are the only class choices then, they seem ok.
Also the change you made with purge works as well. Watch out for this tho. I see a little room for creative pc's to go nuts.
By the way, even with the phase attack ability. What is to stop your shade from jumping into combat as a move action and sneaking with his remaining standard action. You don't really need the +4 at 7th level. This is what the ninja was doing as a free action in 3.0
If i was in your campaign I would go for the shade or the acolyte. Both are pretty powerful. Creative use of feats will help.
Nephitus
09-01-04, 02:08 PM Hmm, I think I see what you mean with the sneak attack issue. Monsters will be able to tell easily where the Shade is while he's phased out as long as they know he's around - so while he might get a sneak attack initially by staying phased out and using Hide and Move Silently to approach a monster without him knowing, from that point the monster will know the Shade is there and as such be able to see him even if the shade phases back out. He doesn't disappear completely when outside the material plane - it's similar to the spell Ghostly Visage from 3rd edition as far as visual effects go.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nephitus 09-01-04, 11:41 AM	I'm working on a few alternate core classes for an upcoming campaign. The PC's will only be able to choose from these classes (which I've already talked to them about and they're okay with). Ideally, the classes should be slightly more powerful than the standard classes to fit with the campaign, but I'm somewhat concerned that they may not be balanced against each other. The classes are: Reaper (http://67.167.144.101/~josh/reaper.pdf) - Basic fighter-type Shadow Chanter (http://67.167.144.101/~josh/shadowchanter.pdf) - Heals party members and summons Shadows to fight for him Shade (http://67.167.144.101/~josh/shade.pdf) - Sneaky rogue-type Acolyte (http://67.167.144.101/~josh/acolyte.pdf) - Spellcaster that can learn other spells he sees cast I've got a couple more in the works, but that's who I have so far. Any comments or suggestions? Edit: In this campaign, the PC's are long-time adventurers who die due to some large catastrophe and are then commissioned by agents of Death to go backward in time and prevent the catastrophe from happening. They lose the abilities they gained during their life, and begin to train in these classes. That's why a couple of the classes are pretty much just carbon copies of standard classes with a couple things changed.
Glak 09-01-04, 12:14 PM	The classes are a little bland. Further, while they may or may not be balanced according to power, they are not balanced according to how fun they are. Who would want to play a Reaper? They are at least as boring as a fighter. Give them more class skills and 4 skill points a level. I would give every class that doesn't have a broad selection of spells (not sure if that includes the acolyte) at least 4 points, you can increase the others to compensate.
Nephitus 09-01-04, 12:29 PM	Increased the Reaper skill points to 4 + int and added Craft, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, and Use Rope to his class list. Forgot to mention: There isn't much reason to choose the Reaper over the Fighter, no, but since Fighter isn't a choice in this campaign there needed to be a basic fighter-type.
Slate King 09-01-04, 12:31 PM	Ok here are a few things to consider. Reaper 10/ Weapon Master 10 Ouch, we are talking mucho damage if everything stacks. Ok Shade is a little out there, the etheral jaunt ability is exactly why the ninja of the crecent moon was broken. And you are granting that at lv 1. Sorry bud combining sneaks with etheral jaunt is broken. And the Acolyte is the same benefits of a sorcerer spell list without the hinderance of knowing few spells. Sorry man I say these three (wasn't able to link to the last one) are way broken.
Nephitus 09-01-04, 12:34 PM	I'm not allowing PrC's in this campaign so Reaper 10 / Weapon Master 10 won't really happen. Why exactly was the ethereal jaunt ability broken? I haven't seen that PrC so I don't know what you're referring to. And yes, the Acolyte is the same benefits of a sorceror spell list without the hinderance of knowing few spells. These classes aren't supposed to be in line with the core classes. Edit: My web server was down for a few minutes which could be why you couldn't bring up the Shadow Chanter.
Slate King 09-01-04, 01:29 PM	As far as the etheral jaunt question, you have one of the problems answered. That being that you require a move action to go what i assume is etheral (you only describe it as leaving the material plane) The second problem is that you are granting a free sneak attack every time he phases in and out. It is a little over powered for a 1st level character. I was able to load up the shadow chanter. I have a couple suggestions with it. First, a shadow is a CR 5 (i think) creature. Do not give it to a 1st level character. Second, you can't grant a dispel magic (purge) without a save. At least not at tenth level. Last, please reword recall. You can't mean a true res (no exp penalty for regaining life) that can be used in battle but only grants a couple d10 hp.
Slate King 09-01-04, 01:31 PM	but against each other, they are all equally overpowered..
Nephitus 09-01-04, 01:46 PM	Like I said in the first post, they're all supposed to be a little overpowered. It's not going to be a particularly long campaign, and I'll adjust the battles they get into to make them be challenging (low-level grunts will be using spells against the players, and they will likely be under attack very often). The shadow that the shadow chanter summons isn't the same as the shadow given in the MM. The SC's shadow has only one (melee) attack and serves no purpose other than dealing out damage and taking hits. As for recall, that one does need a bit of explaining - in this campaign, as the players are all already dead, they can't really die again - they just return to the afterlife and then have to make their way back to the material realm. That takes a lot of time, and forces the remaining players to fend for themselves while their other member is away. Recall lets the shadow chanter return the missing player immediately - which now that I think about it, that is pretty overpowered even for this campaign so I'll probably impose another sort of in-game limit to that as well. As for this - You would have a campaign world without those two classes because no one would be dumb enough to take them. I do have a campaign world without those two classes, at least for the PC's. If you'll look back to my original post, and then the post I made before this one, the players will only be allowed to select from the classes I'm making up here. For the Shade - the free sneak attack (Phase Attack) is only allowed immediately after phasing into the material realm (never while phasing out) and can only be done a maximum of 4 times per day. Also, he doesn't get the Phase Attack ability until 7th level, and can then only use it once per day.
Nephitus 09-01-04, 01:49 PM	I've updated the Shadow Chanter to add a Will save (DC 15 + WIS) to the Purge ability. Edit: Also added ability score damage (1d4 to all abilities for 1d8 rounds) and a 1-round Daze to the Recall ability.
Slate King 09-01-04, 01:58 PM	I reread after i posted, and edited my post. If these are the only class choices then, they seem ok. Also the change you made with purge works as well. Watch out for this tho. I see a little room for creative pc's to go nuts. By the way, even with the phase attack ability. What is to stop your shade from jumping into combat as a move action and sneaking with his remaining standard action. You don't really need the +4 at 7th level. This is what the ninja was doing as a free action in 3.0 If i was in your campaign I would go for the shade or the acolyte. Both are pretty powerful. Creative use of feats will help.
Nephitus 09-01-04, 02:08 PM	Hmm, I think I see what you mean with the sneak attack issue. Monsters will be able to tell easily where the Shade is while he's phased out as long as they know he's around - so while he might get a sneak attack initially by staying phased out and using Hide and Move Silently to approach a monster without him knowing, from that point the monster will know the Shade is there and as such be able to see him even if the shade phases back out. He doesn't disappear completely when outside the material plane - it's similar to the spell Ghostly Visage from 3rd edition as far as visual effects go.