Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Orzhovguy 04-04-06, 11:19 PM	I asked the DM if I could be a ninja, since I have the Complete Adventurers book. He says no, because he thinks there too powerful compared to the basic classes. :confused: I told him that they have a poor armor class, weapon selection, and hit points. The DM still doesn't believe me. Can anyone give me more info, so I can convince the DM, that would be appreciated. :)
Entheogenic 04-04-06, 11:32 PM	The ninja is an extremely powerful class, and one of the easier ones to "break"--we just had to force our ninja to make a new character, as he was virtually unhittable and doing WAY too much damage per round--but there's nothing inherantly more powerful about it than other classes. You can point out to the DM that, unlike the monk, the ninja has two poor saves (will and fort). The ninja is something of an amalgamation between monk and rogue--if the DM is willing to allow either of those, there's no reason why a ninja would be outlawed. Entheogenic
Jaime_Wolf 04-04-06, 11:52 PM	The ninja is brakeable, it's true. But it's also glaringly obvious when someone's broken it. Besides that, please, show me a class that ISN'T breakable, there's simply too much stuff for D&D to ever have a class that isn't breakable. It's up to you not to break it, and up to your DM to look at your character before you start playing (and for heaven's sake, DO NOT take the TWF feat tree, that just screams optimization for people with sneak attack or sudden strike). The ninja itself is by no means broken. Especially at lower levels. The key isn't the poor attack bonus, the poor weapon selection, or even the poor hit points. It's the mechanics sudden strike. Remember: SUDDEN STRIKE IS NOT SNEAK ATTACK. Sneak attack requires that the target be denied their dex. bonus or flanked. Sudden strike only takes effect when they're denied their dex. bonus to AC (later on this becomes slightly less restrictive as you gain invisibility and etherealness, but those have limited uses and will only take you so far). This is a HUGE disadvantage that many of the later powers merely work to make up for, something that the rogue doesn't have to worry about in the first place. It's a LOT easier to flank someone than to get them denied their dex. bonus to AC. Oh, might also factor in the MAD (Multiple ability dependency) of Ninja, it's not as bad as a monk, but it's pretty bad. You have to have wisdom for the mystical things and AC, constitution to make up for the hit points, dexterity for your AC, and strength for your attacks (not quite as important). Also keep in mind that unless you're optimizing, you should have a lower AC than those in heavy armour (like a monk, you could have a HUGE AC if you optimized, but, as you can see in the "With Class" articles, those with stat-dependent AC are meant to end up with lower ACs. Basically, avoid tons of magic items that give you an impossibly high AC). On the whole, I consider ninja to be a moderately useful class, it's special abilities combined with the flaws of its AC, hp, and weapon selection (though it certainly gets some visually compelling weapons :D) put it on par with the rogue. And if he refuses saying that it's overpowered, message me, I'll send you a broken build of every core class. EVERYTHING can be broken, it's his job to make sure you don't break it, not to rule out anything that it's possible to break.
Entheogenic 04-05-06, 12:03 AM	Exactly my point. Our broken ninja has a ring of blink, allowing him to "sneak attack" with every attack. He also took a feat to increase the dice size of his sneak attack twice, so he was (at 12th level) doing 10d8 points of sneak attack damage with EVERY attack. It was ridiculous. We're all college students, and the DM doesn't have time to fact check each one of the players. We recently found out that the sneak attack progression feat is out of the Epic handbook, and as punishment forced him to scrap the character. The flavor of the ninja, especially at low levels, is even more hide dependent than the rogue. The idea, it seems to me, is that one would hide, then sneak attack from hiding (possibly with shurikens), then hide again. At higher levels, he can use his invisibility and etherealness instead of hiding, but those uses are limited to a per-day number. There's no reason why the class should be banned outright. It's a melee character with middle-of-the-road BAB progression, two poor saves, and without the ability to wear even light armor. As the poster above mentioned, it is also VERY ability score dependent--at the very least, you'll need a high wis and a high dex to have a decent AC. The cleric, or even fighter, can be broken MUCH more easily. Entheogenic
StruckingFuggle 04-05-06, 12:27 AM	.... ... It's up to you not to break it, and up to your DM to look at your character before you start playing (and for heaven's sake, DO NOT take the TWF feat tree, that just screams optimization for people with sneak attack or sudden strike). ...Contrastingly, I'd say DO take TWF, or at least Rapid Shot.... Jaime_Wolf's advice is like playing a barbarian and avoiding a Greataxe and Power Attack because "it screams optimization".
Raven Dark 04-05-06, 12:40 AM	A ninja is broken alright--brokenly weak that is. Much of its drawbacks have already been mentioned, but one really bad one that always bothered me was this: Ki Dodge is absolutely useless. Ghost Step at 2nd level does exactly what Ki Dodge does--only better. Why on earth would you need a second class ability that grants concealment when another one (from a lower level no less) grants invisibility (which by its very nature grants a 50% miss chance on its own AT 2ND LEVEL!)? The mechanical design of the class is just screwed up. :nonono:
Entheogenic 04-05-06, 01:13 AM	The only difference I can see is that spells that reveal invisible creatures won't work with ki dodge. But yeah, it does seem rather useless. It would be a lot cooler if it were an immediate action to activate. Entheogenic
Zsasz_Diedne 04-05-06, 01:42 AM	Exactly my point. Our broken ninja has a ring of blink, allowing him to "sneak attack" with every attack. He also took a feat to increase the dice size of his sneak attack twice, so he was (at 12th level) doing 10d8 points of sneak attack damage with EVERY attack. It was ridiculous. Entheogenic You can stop right there, as that feat is not core, nor official splatbook, and thus has no bearing on the Ninja, in and of itself. As was stated, any class is breakable, if he were playing a Rogue with that feat and a ring of blinking would you be decrying how powerful/breakable the Rogue is? I Have yet to see a post on such a thing, but I suppose it's only a matter of time. Rings of blinking ain't exactly cheap for a 12th level character, I can only assume that the rest of your group has access to similar resources as well as whatever third party materials your DM has allowed, which means really this is a case of hatin', as the rest of you should be just as scary as he is, especially if there are any casters of any stripe in the party. The best use I ever had for a Ninja was creating a version of Hanzo Hattori for the Opto board Ultimate Leaders contest, mixed rather nicely with Legendary Tactician and Chameleon. By itself, I am wholly unimpressed with the class. Ghost Step and Poison Use are nice touches, beyond that there's nothing it can't do that the Rogue either cannot do better or cannot reproduce with relatively inexpensive items. In short, if you want to play a Ninja, play a Rogue and wear black pajamas. But I digress... Points to bring up with your DM in your favor (no particular order): Doesn't Get Evasion til 12th level, never gets Improved Evasion, cannot use Evasion with Armor on Sneak Attack>Sudden Strike 2 less skill points starting/per level than a Rogue Possesses the Monk's Wisdom to AC ability and level based AC bonuses, but also inherents the Monk's MAD, as without armor, you'll need Dex and Wis at high levels to avoid getting hit, with some nice Con to survive if you do get hit. Does not have Use Magic Device as a class skill Will be spending a lot more money on armor enchantments, as yours can only be applied to Bracers of Armor (if your DM allows that variant rule from A&EG) Doesn't get Uncanny Dodge If this hasn't convinced you to play a Rogue in pajamas, I hope it helps sway your DM :D
legowarrior 04-05-06, 02:22 AM	But it does get the following Massive Acrobat skills, that although a rogue could match with items, the Ninja could use those same items and get further. Best use of Dex, since no armor, no Dex Penalities of any sort. Best carrying capacity, again, no armor, means he can carry more. Bonus to willsaves Invisible attack swiftly, without losing invisibility. Actually this makes up for the poor sudden strike ability, a little. Proficiency in Shuriken, and shuriken are Cool. Add the Word Ninja to your character.... Now that has to be worth something? Better scouts, since they usually have high Wisdom Scores. Use Ghost Sight, and pretend to see dead people. After combat. Okay the Rogue is better, but the lack of armor is a benefit when it comes to certain skills.
Cadfan 04-05-06, 04:38 AM	I think they're actually better than a rogue in combat. The rogue gets squished whenever the bad guys decide to actually pay attention to him. Higher damage than the fighter, but lower armor class and lower hit points = squashed when the bad guys get around to it. The ninja, on the other hand, has invisibility, and therefore a 50% miss chance. It costs you ki points out the wazoo, but its worth it. Plus, shuriken are like getting quickdraw for free, and add a bit of ranged rogue type flair to the ninja. In a surprise round, fling a shuriken and get sudden strike damage. Then, if you win initiative, do it again for more sudden strike damage. A rogue needs a feat to get the surprise round portion. Plus, they're good ways to deliver poison. I'd rather have the ninja in combat. I'd prefer the rogue for general dungeon crawling, though, due to open lock and trap sense.
josephbt 04-05-06, 05:36 AM	well, having played a ninja, i can safelly say that it sorta blows. my buddy(also played ninja at the time) and i had only one problem - enemies with tremorsense, blindsense, blindsight, scent, blindfighting, see invisibility and true seeing. all those abbilities negate your ghost step, the one thing keeping u alive. and area attacks hurt like hell. 12th lvl evasion and only d6 hd?? we got to lvl 5 and got creamed by a minotaur/ftr. guess what? the minotaur is imune to sudden strike(not to sneak attack though). also there were problems with less skillpoints and the weapon finess u have to take at third lvl. no umd, no intimidate. although it was mucho fun to roleplay, mechanically it sucked
Priest_of_Shaundakul 04-05-06, 05:40 AM	Rogue/Assassin for me. Ninja didn't fare well for us either.
urial angel of death 04-05-06, 06:44 AM	ninja u used to not have ki-dodge, had sneak attack insted of sudden strike but got it at a slower rate, got improved evasion, and got all of its abilities in a 10 level prestige class(was called ninja of the cresent moon). Wizards then seeing that it could be broken very easily decided to simply spread it out to balance it. All the did was make it so a non broken ninja sucks because of all the drawback they gave it in order to "balance" it.
Zsasz_Diedne 04-05-06, 11:10 AM	Ah the NoTCM, still preferred by our group as a Ninja-ish alternative. The only thing that made the class lean over to the broken side of things was it's subsequently errata'd full BaB. Unfortunately for the OP if his DM won't let him play the CAdv version I don't see him allowing that one either.
CaoSlayer 04-05-06, 11:40 AM	um, actually a ninja inst that bad at tanking because a 50% fail chances means almost the same that having twice the hp because half of the blows recieved will be ignored so while invisible he is as tough as having 2xhp.
Moribund 04-05-06, 12:03 PM	josephbt, some of those abilities you listed don't negate invisiblity. Tremorsense, blindsense, and scent may allow the creature to pinpoint the location of your ninja if within range, but they still suffer a 50% miss chance to attacks and are denied Dexterity. Blind-fight only protects from melee attacks, allowing an ghost-stepping ninja to still chuck those shuriken. Hell, by the RAW a ninja could even used ranged attacks while standing next to a creature with blind-fight since total concealment protects from attacks of opportunity.