Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KnolanCross 08-16-05, 10:05 PM	I was reading some threads about it, and I'm pretty much convinced that they are the weakest class in the books. Thought, I have never played as a Paladin, cause I'm mostly likelly to be the DM, so far i have played as: Ranger (3.5 - great class), Druid (the best in my opinion), warrior (very stilish one, fighting with a huge katana - k, not that big...) and cleric... that's AFAI can remember. He doesn't get much damage ability, have multiple atributes dependence and lack of class abilities. The only good thing he gets are his save throws...
BlaineTog 08-16-05, 10:08 PM	Paladins are frontloaded, and evil DMs can make their lives hell, but I don't think they are underpowered per se.
Nephlite 08-16-05, 10:27 PM	I was reading some threads about it, and I'm pretty much convinced that they are the weakest class in the books. Thought, I have never played as a Paladin, cause I'm mostly likelly to be the DM, so far i have played as: Ranger (3.5 - great class), Druid (the best in my opinion), warrior (very stilish one, fighting with a huge katana - k, not that big...) and cleric... that's AFAI can remember. He doesn't get much damage ability, have multiple atributes dependence and lack of class abilities. The only good thing he gets are his save throws... Pals are only weakish in Point Buy due to MAD (Multiple Ability Dependency). They aren't weak in Rolling die games (when you roll scores). Pals need Wisdom/charisma. As well as good Str/Con maybe 12 Dex if in full plate. Pals have many class abilities. Smite Evil, Cure Disease, Lay On Hands, Summon Mount (or whatever name), Immune to Disease, Immune to fear and +4 bonus to far for Allies, Spells, etc. Yes, they are specialized so they are best against evil creatures but so are Rangers specialized against their favored foes.
Tweedledope 08-16-05, 11:03 PM	To me, the only good thing a paladin gets is Divine Grace. Sad thing is, Divine Grace can be gained SO many other ways. Paladin is one of my least favorite classes. I really don't see how smite evil is remotely decent. Wow, I just did...+4 damage. Impressive. Then again, I'm native to the CO boards and Paladin is usually only used to get that wonderful Divine Grace. Now, one way to get a nice Paladin is to use the Prestige Paladin from the Unearthed Arcana. If used properly, it can be quite nice and you can progress clerical casting. Not too shabby. Then there's the Character Optimization gem, the Soldier of Light. This Dieties and Demigods beauty is pretty much the equivalent of 20 levels of Paladin all wrapped into a 10 level prestige class. Very nice. But yes, IMHO, Paladins are pretty weak. -=Tweedledope=-
thepuregamer 08-16-05, 11:25 PM	Anyone forgetting the special mount? which allows a lance wielding paladin to do amazing damage with his smite. spirited charge on a flying mount? Anyway, the paladin's isnt so spread out for ability scores. All he basically needs is a high charisma and high strength. He can drop out on int, con, and dex quite a bit and he only ever needs 14 wisdom at the later parts of the game. All in all, he gets the ability to heal himself quite a bit, good saves, and good damage against evil enemies. I think the major problem with the paladin is that they are goodie goodies which is a major problem for me roleplaying them. If one makes a mistake, bam fallen. but thats ok cause then bam blackguard. That is about it anyway for paladins.
Nephlite 08-16-05, 11:30 PM	To me, the only good thing a paladin gets is Divine Grace. Sad thing is, Divine Grace can be gained SO many other ways. Paladin is one of my least favorite classes. I really don't see how smite evil is remotely decent. Wow, I just did...+4 damage. Impressive. Then again, I'm native to the CO boards and Paladin is usually only used to get that wonderful Divine Grace. Now, one way to get a nice Paladin is to use the Prestige Paladin from the Unearthed Arcana. If used properly, it can be quite nice and you can progress clerical casting. Not too shabby. Then there's the Character Optimization gem, the Soldier of Light. This Dieties and Demigods beauty is pretty much the equivalent of 20 levels of Paladin all wrapped into a 10 level prestige class. Very nice. But yes, IMHO, Paladins are pretty weak. -=Tweedledope=- Smite Evil: She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. Add Charisma so at least +2 (few Pals have lower than 14 charisma) to hit. But damage eaquals Pal level! At level 4 you do 4 more damage. At level 8, 8 more damage. At level 20, +20 Damage!. Plus Divine Grace is gained at level 2 so you'd have to stay trill level 4 to get +4 damage. You must have stayed to gain Turn undead?
oddman 08-17-05, 12:18 AM	Smite Evil is great. Especially since you can combine it with Power Attack for even more damage. As for the original poster. Name another class that has very good saves, can stand toe to toe with most fighters in melee, can cast spells, turn undead, heal himself, gets an animal companion that is actually good in a fight without having to spend a feat, and can use pretty much any combination of armor and weapons that he chooses to? I'm sorry but there is no way that Paladins are underpowered.
Nyferto 08-17-05, 03:36 AM	Paladins, wish they didn't have that mount to put up with. Get some stupid feats and spells across the entire Complete Series... so it depends on what material you use. BTW if you think Druids are great, practically everyone is weak. If you really wanted, you could take the stupid Paladin of Slaughter (or was it Tyranny), who are crap tasticly broken and yet another reason to ignore the UA. Oh and Core Paladins don't get Flying mounts. Spirited charge requires many dedicated feats and the Lance isn't a good weapon off a mount.
Flushmaster 08-17-05, 04:34 AM	Spirited Charge has many requirements? It requires 1 rank in ride, Mounted Combat, and Ride By Attack. Since Spirited charge only works when mounted, Mounted Combat is a pretty clear thing to have for that since it serves to protect your mount and is pretty much a general prerequisite for any advanced mounted feats (much like Point Blank Shot is for archery feats). Since Spirited Charge, again, can only be used while mounted then it's usually pretty safe to assume that anybody who plans on spending enough time mounted to burn a feat on it will have more than a single rank in the ride skill. These two are pretty much givens. Ride By Attack lets you charge a target, make your attack (lances already deal extra damage in doing this), and then move away from your target without provoking attacks of opportunity. Basically, it means that you're a really good charger when mounted; so good that, unless your target can make ranged attacks or is extremely fast, you should be able to attack them for heavy damage with impunity. This seems like a rather logical progression to me since having all of them means you can often make attacks for 3d8 + 3xStr damege (3d6 if you're small size) while only risking ranged attacks from your target (which you'd be vulnerably to anyways in most fights). Even with only a 14 in strength that means your average damage on a hit is 19.5 (16.5 small), while a strength score of sixteen gets you 22.5 (19.5 if small) and 18 means 25.5 (22.5 if small). That's only average damage, as with 14 your max is 30 and 18 strength brings the max up to 36; get a critical hit and things bounce up by by another 6 to ten points. Consider that a first level human fighter is capable of this, or a 2nd level nonhuman fighter, a 3rd level human paladin, or a 6th level nonhuman paladin (and at level 6 that lance might very well be magical and add extra damage to be tripled). If you aren't planning on fighting while mounted a lot you shouldn't even have a lance in the first place (a longspear does the same thing and is lighter and cheaper and a glaive does more damage), let alone be investing mounted feats. This is for the same reason that you rarely see a greataxe wielding barbarian with Point Blank Shot or any other archery feat; they get things like Power Attack and Cleave instead because they'll use them more. If you plan to fight from a mount more often than not then going for Spirited Charge is the equivalent to an archer going for Precise Shot and Rapid Shot. It's the best choice. But I digress. The Paladin's class features do seem a bit front loaded, but the Smite Evil and ability to remove disease do increase in frequency at higher levels and the smite's damage goes up with level as well (I'm not positive if that extra damage would be multiplied also by a lance charge, but if so then that makes it so much nastier to the baddies). If your party gets in a fight with a poisonus monster then your immunity and ability to quickly heal your party of it will be quite useful also. I've never played a character with a hit die larger than a d8 except my first game ever when somebody else handed me a premade barbarian (unless you count some deus ex machina forced multiclassing with a wizard into paladin, but I only got to play that character with the paladin level for one session, though it was fun). But whenever I get around to making a combat oriented character, a paladin is up on the list. Whenever I do it I hope to get DM permission to make the character a paladin of Wee Jas (she can have lawful good clerics, why not paladins?) and have him be very devoted to order and justice for all but still coldly methodical and even just a little bit vain, going heavily for that enforcer feel.
BlaineTog 08-17-05, 05:21 AM	Basically, it means that you're a really good charger when mounted; so good that, unless your target can make ranged attacks or is extremely fast, you should be able to attack them for heavy damage with impunity.Unless they start readying actions... Don't get me wrong, I think that mounted combat is a great combat tactic, and the Paladin is pretty much the only one who can get away with it, but Ride-By Attack hardly makes you invulnerable.
Nyferto 08-17-05, 05:44 AM	Ride by attack is useless against Larger foes unless you miraculously target yourself very specifically against a Foe. Either way - they ready actions you die. The near unavoidable need to over-run with a Ride By Attack is a real kicker, you charge in, they kill you, your mount lips home to some Good Aligned Plane. Not to mention that you can't over-run with a Charge these days, so no ride by attacks at all. Combine that with the Fact that you need to summon your stupid mount and that you could probably buy a more flexable one, but if you do then all your mounted abilities mean crap. Mounted Combat only works once per round, if they target your Mount. Not only that but if you do use a Lance you'll need to dump the Lance off your mount and none of it will help you in other areas. Unless you're a Human Paladin, you're missing out on Spirited Charge till 9th level, which is quite a long time to go and it assumes you don't take any other option along the way, not only that but it doesn't help you off your mount and only helps you if you charge with it. Then the enemy starts flying and blows you to pieces, your Mount gets Evasion, but do you?
Kurama Youko 08-17-05, 07:43 AM	I don't think so. Atleast not in terms of mechanics, flavor wise I don't like classes that are (by this I mean by most DM's not by the suggestion of the book.) are stereotyped are forced into a straightjacket type role. I remember reading in the Defenders of the Faith about a guild of PALADINS that were gruff and tough and kick-butt for just looking at someone wrong. They seemed so cool to me, no longer did the Paladin seem like some glorified holy knight who could do no wrong, or cleanly gold armor wearing pretty boy/girl. If your paladins are forced to always be extreme goodie-two shoes then yes I think in that sense the class is underpowered. Then again I also think a Paladin should have the choice of any good as oppose to just lawful good, and that for every positive there needs to be a negative in that outside of a prestige class there should have been a anti-paladin or dark-knight for evil churches and deities. It doesnt make any sense to me to have a class of one specific alignment to then only say that half of those classes fall to the darkside as soon as they hit paladin 10 just to balance out the forces of good and evil. Either make a evil version of paladin a core class like in the UA, or make Paladin a prestige class (also introduced in UA.)
Duration_10_Rounds 08-17-05, 07:52 AM	You dont NEED to over run! the desciption of Ride by lets you move-attack-move without inccuring an AoO from the target of the attack. Meaning you can move through/past his square and not incurr the usual AoO.. there is no need to overrun to carry on moving. Also a Core paladin using aditional rules (Defenders of the Faith? Comp Devine?) Can gain Pegasus, Giant Owl, Dire Lion, Griphon mounts (amoung others). With those same rules a Paladin who is also a mighty leader can gain a Dragon Mount!!! these dount count as your special summoned mount so you can use your Dragon for WAR!!!! and your Pegasus for scouting missions. Its a ride roll of 10(easy peasy!!) to fight with mount so you could perform a devistating Arial Spritied charge & ride by, combinted with a Smite and have your dragon breath weapon your targets at the same time! A Fighter(for all mounted feats really early!)/Paladin with a dragon mount is about as Funky as it gets.
NehpetsTtocs 08-17-05, 12:01 PM	I like the Paladin, and don't find him that stat dependant. As other s have mentioned, he can dump intelligence and really doesn't need to invest in dexterity. A fighter who wants to take a broad variety of feat chains will also be needy for stats, and even a barbarian is dependant upon str, con and dex. Aside from the mounts, and the fact that mounted combat can be very sick in terms of damage, the Paladin also has some really good skills. Aside from ride, what does he need? Diplomacy and sense motive are great paladin skills, especially for a class that needs a high charisma. Even in the tightly packed dungeon, where the paladin cannot bring his mount, he can tank up on heavy armor and serve as decent meat sheild. IMHO, the Paladin is a great class. It can always prove useful in one situation or another, in and out of combat.
Duration_10_Rounds 08-17-05, 12:19 PM	Even in the tightly packed dungeon, where the paladin cannot bring his mount.... Like some one mentioned in another thread small paladins can bring thier Riding Dogs into dungeons...a 5th level halfling or gnome with 16 str(18 -2for thier race) and the right feats could potential charge attack for 3d6+75 when smiting (if the DM allows power attack and power lunges for charges) chuck in Devine Might with a 16 Cha at level 6 and that fiesty little bastard is doing 3d6 + 87! at level 6 on a Spirited,Smiting, Devine Might, Ride-by-Attack. Then assume they use Devine sacrifice to put the cherry on the cake, so to speak, thats a potential 3d6+5d6+84 damage in a single attack :eek: Now make a ride roll to "fight with mount" so your dog can bite as part of his charge attck thats: 3d6+5d6+1d6+5+84 :eek: :eek: at level 6 :eek: Which is pretty spesh when you consider that dog is going the be available to use in almost every enviroment a mendim sized player is.
Nyferto 08-17-05, 12:35 PM	You dont NEED to over run! the desciption of Ride by lets you move-attack-move without inccuring an AoO from the target of the attack. Meaning you can move through/past his square and not incurr the usual AoO.. there is no need to overrun to carry on moving. Also a Core paladin using aditional rules (Defenders of the Faith? Comp Devine?) Can gain Pegasus, Giant Owl, Dire Lion, Griphon mounts (amoung others). With those same rules a Paladin who is also a mighty leader can gain a Dragon Mount!!! these dount count as your special summoned mount so you can use your Dragon for WAR!!!! and your Pegasus for scouting missions. Its a ride roll of 10(easy peasy!!) to fight with mount so you could perform a devistating Arial Spritied charge & ride by, combinted with a Smite and have your dragon breath weapon your targets at the same time! A Fighter(for all mounted feats really early!)/Paladin with a dragon mount is about as Funky as it gets. Right, this is wrong on multiple levels. You need to charge as part of a Ride By attack Spirited Charge, read the rules on charge, you have to align yourself very maticulously in the round before and hope they don't move between then if you don't want to over-run (Which you can't). You then have to hope they don't use readied actions to completely screw you over. It's very difficult to move in a straight line to the first square you can attack them from unless you're actually in a direct straight line relative to their square, the first square you can attack from is always going to be a corner. It's not that easy to Ride By Attack and Spirited Charge at all, it might even be impossible on larger foes. Not only that but it doesn't help you against foes you can't engage in melee with. It still requires much investment and leaves you tied into mounted combat charges, which is heavily inflexable. Core Paladins using Additional rules? Sorry that's an outright contradiction. If the DM does allow a special mount then he has nothing but his own rulings to account for. Even if he does there's nothing stopping others from getting good mounts as well. He still has to summon the mount, he still has to wait to replace it if it dies and what DM in their right mind is going to give a Paladin a completely free Dragon to ride on? The advocation that they need such power beneath them is a sure testament against their strength because it's not a core choice. It's a DC 10 Check to ride a mount trained for War into battle, it's a DC 20 check to handle a mount not trained for War in battle. Even then it leaves you with only one action for an un war trained mount. Dragons aren't trained for riding into war, neither are Celestial Dire Lions or whatever else you want to dream up. A DM might decide that a clever enough mount (like a Dragon) might be able to handle being ridden in war, but control it? Training a mount for War requires a DC 20 Handle Animal check, please note that Paladins only have 2+int skill points. Advocating that you can be a Fighter/Paladin and use Non-core material to questionable benefit isn't that great an arguement. Note that I do like Paladins, but don't overstate their mounted abilities or their focus on it. Also note that being a Small Paladin isn't an option Medium or Larger Paladins have. You want to be a Small Paladin, it doesn't help the Medium or Larger ones.
CryoSilver 08-17-05, 12:38 PM	I don't know about the mount (I never use it, and usually ask my DM if I can get a bonus feat or extra daily smite evil instead), but I don't find paladins too weak if the DM isn't out to make his life a living hell. With the right feats (Extra Smiting) and use of abilities (I never actually try to turn undead, I invest in Divine feats) the paladin becomes able to deal surprisingly large amounts of damage, almost never fails a save and has as much staying power as the fighter.
KnolanCross 08-17-05, 01:16 PM	Smite evil might be a good way of dealing extra damage, but you can use it 5 times most (unless you spent a feat). If you have a +10 bonus to you charisma, you can add 10 to your to ypur power attack damage, in the end +30 damge (considering you are using a one handed weapon in order to have a shield). And this works ONLY against evil enimies. So it is not that great, if you compare with the damage of a barbarian, a fighter, or even a ranger. Paladins also have few skill points, and can't be stealth at all. The only good thing he got is his saves, though a monk can have better saves.
Duration_10_Rounds 08-17-05, 01:18 PM	Can i have this in engligh please? It's very difficult to move in a straight line to the first square you can attack them from unless you're actually in a direct straight line relative to their square, the first square you can attack from is always going to be a corner. It's not that easy to Ride By Attack and Spirited Charge at all, it might even be impossible on larger foes. You can still 5ft step before a charge oppening up the attackable space quite alot for instance player ":" could 5ft step while mounted into any square makred "|" and subsiquenlty make a charge agains all areasmakred "*" (and beyond) [ ][ ] [ ][ ] [ ][ ] [ ][ ] [|][|][|] [|][:][|] [|][|][|] [ ][ ] [ ][ ] [ ][ ] [ ][ ] Sure ALL foes could prepare actions against him but that gives the party huge advantage if all thier enemies are bracing speas into the ground and ignoring every one but the paladin. Not only that but it doesn't help you against foes you can't engage in melee with. It still requires much investment and leaves you tied into mounted combat charges, which is heavily inflexable. Rideby attack provokes no AoO from the target of the attack you can move into and out of his reach without provoing an AoO totlay negating the benefit his reach offers him... unless he readies for your charge and he hits you 1st .. but again redying only for you is risky as he could loose his action if you dont attack him. Core Paladins using Additional rules? Sorry that's an outright contradiction. Not quite, Dragon mounts/cohorts are a take on how the leadership feat can work better for paladins. So the rule is not directly enhancing the paladin but how a certain DMG feat can work for him. It's a DC 10 Check to ride a mount trained for War into battle. No its not! that DC 10 for Fight with Warhorse: is not to ride it into battle its to be able to use its attacks along side your own Fight with Warhorse: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action. That DC 10 is so you can clobber your foe with your mounts hooves, bite etc AND still be able attack, yourself. Training a mount for War requires a DC 20 Handle Animal check, please note that Paladins only have 2+int skill points. All non core summoned mounts linked to the pally class are war trained. Also note that being a Small Paladin isn't an option Medium or Larger Paladins have. You want to be a Small Paladin, it doesn't help the Medium or Larger ones. I know but who wants to be a human palladin when you can be a gnome!!!
Duration_10_Rounds 08-17-05, 01:26 PM	I don't know about the mount (I never use it, and usually ask my DM if I can get a bonus feat or extra daily smite evil instead), but I don't find paladins too weak if the DM isn't out to make his life a living hell. With the right feats (Extra Smiting) and use of abilities (I never actually try to turn undead, I invest in Divine feats) the paladin becomes able to deal surprisingly large amounts of damage, almost never fails a save and has as much staying power as the fighter. Yup a Smite Evil + Devine Grace + Devine Might + Power Attack+ Devine Sacrifice will see your Great Sword clobbing undead for 2d6+5d6+2d6+(Strx1.5)+(Cha bonus)+(Level) Not to be sniffed at!... ok its speicalist damage: 2d6 vs undead and Level Vs evil only and they are not core powers or feats but the Paladin CAN muller some baddies big time.... then throw in your dragon mount for good measure if your using those non core rules anyway :D and if anything He's overpowered!
BlaineTog 08-17-05, 03:08 PM	Ride by attack is useless against Larger foes unless you miraculously target yourself very specifically against a Foe.What? Either way - they ready actions you die.Not really, no. You're still dealing 3x damage (if you use a lance, which you should) vs their 1x damage, and if they're readying actions against you that means that they arn't full-attacking the wizard. The near unavoidable need to over-run with a Ride By Attack is a real kicker,How is this true? I'm not completelly up on mounted combat, but I'm pretty sure there's nothing in there about requiring overrun attempts (although a character in my party uses his horse for overrun attempts and knocks enemies over nearly all the time). you charge in, they kill you,If the monster would have killing you in one hit, being mounted is hardly exacerbating things. Combine that with the Fact that you need to summon your stupid mount and that you could probably buy a more flexable one,There's no rule that forces the paladin to use his summoned mount, although I'm puzzled that you think there are better choices. At least in core rules, no horse will have all the life-saving things the paladin's mount will have, including sentience. Unless you're a Human Paladin, you're missing out on Spirited Charge till 9th level, which is quite a long time to go and it assumes you don't take any other option along the way, not only that but it doesn't help you off your mount and only helps you if you charge with it.Um, Spirited Charge only has two feat requirements, which means a human fighter can get it at 1st level, any other fighter can get it at 2nd level, a human paladin can get it at 3rd level, and any other paladin can get it at 6th level. Then the enemy starts flying and blows you to pieces,This is a problem all melee combat shares. I fail to see how mounted combat makes it a bigger problem than usual. your Mount gets Evasion, but do you?Ok, now you're just reaching for straws. You wouldn't have evasion anyway. Thus, being on your mount, you are no worse off than if you were off it. Thus, this statement is irrelevant.
thepuregamer 08-17-05, 05:00 PM	Also how is it non core for a paladin to get a flying mount using his special mount ability? The rules for it are in the dmg and the paladin's mount description in the book just describes their usual mounts. A Paladin could easily have a different one under core rules and paladin's get their flying mount as part of their class meaning they arent being a drain on the party's resources to gain that ability. Every other non caster class would have to spend money buying and training the same mounts to get the same benefit. They would have to spend money to gain any form of mount. Furthermore, a paladin on a mount making spirited charges is in a far better position than the enemy that is readying actions against them. As has been said, a paladin gets 3x their damage on the charge as opposed to their opponents 1x damage(2x if readying a spear of some sort). The point none of you seem to be mentioning that is the real weakness of this is that a paladin who specializes in mounted combat loses much of his power off the mount. He isnt weak on the mount but the animal cannot follow him everywhere. A warrior who takes mounted combat on the other hand can gain all the important mounted feats while still spending having more to spend on other types of combat.
KnolanCross 08-17-05, 09:23 PM	A warrior who takes mounted combat on the other hand can gain all the important mounted feats while still spending having more to spend on other types of combat. The problem is that a warror can't have a special mount with extra HD. His mount would die easilly and he would be weak again. Also, a warrior mount doesn't get improved invasion and Spell resistance. Also i think that some rules about paladin's special mount's can be found in the Defenders of Faith Book. Don't forget that you can't go inside dungeons with yout mount, and most campains have many dungeons.
CryoSilver 08-17-05, 09:33 PM	I don't see how paladin and stealth go together anyways. And now with bane knocked down to a +1 enhancement, paladins are the ultimate demon hunters. I'll concede that paladins don't really match up in a political campaign or one where you fight a lot of neutral baddies, but in a high fantasy save-the-world kind of game, the paladin is at his bgest, and better than everyone else. And honestly, how often do you need to really lay the holy smackdown with a Smite Evil? Usually spending a turn attempt on Divine Might will give you enough smackdown with some to spare for the BBEG if you have a high CHA.
ninjarabbit 08-17-05, 09:57 PM	The thing with paladins is that they get no new abilities after level 5, it's just that most of their old abilites get stronger.
Diplominator 08-17-05, 10:04 PM	The main place where paladins shine is actually epic levels, I think, with the absolutely delicious epic feat "great smiting". If you take it once, your smite damage doubles. If you take it twice, it triples, and so forth. So, you take it three times by level 25. Y'know that smite you maligned so much. Now it does 75 damage each time. The other nice thing is that their MAD goes away, at least a little. Once your strength, Constitution, and Wisdom are up to acceptable levels (25-30), you never have to worry about them again. Saves? Divine grace. Attacks? Smite Evil. All you need is charisma. They still have the problem of being less potent against nonevil things, but they still have their unearthly saves, and a good BAB. Plus, how man epic monsters challenges aren't evil? Not many.
Nyferto 08-18-05, 07:41 AM	Read the rules people. You can't 5ft step then charge. Please read the rules on both. If you want to Ride By Attack or even Spirited Charge, you have to charge. Charge requires a straight line from your current position to the nearest square you can make an attack. | | | | | | | | | | | | |E| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |X| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |P|H| | | | | | | |H|H| | | | | | | | | | | | | In this example, the enemy is one square wide, X is the corner square the Paladin has to be in to make the Ride By Attack/Spirited Charge. Move him 5ft to the left and he doesn't have to over-run. Otherwise you have to over-run because Ride By Attack continues the straight line of the charge. Thanks to the Errata - YOU CANNOT OVERUN AS PART OF A CHARGE This means, that before you spirited charge you absolutely have to be 5ft away from the edge of your intended target otherwise you cannot Ride By Attack. This means that unless you get extremely lucky in the previous rounds, you will not be able to spirited charge or even Ride by Attack. Note that even if you could over-run, your Mount would have to make the check, not you. | | | | | | | | | | | | |E|E|E| | | | | | |E|E|E| | | | | | |E|E|E| | | | | |X| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |H|P| | | | | | | |H|H| | | | | | Again, you need to be exactly 5ft to the edge of a target for a ride by attack, otherwise you charge in and you're next to them. Further more. Note that a Varient Rules concearning Special Mounts in the DMG are Varient Rules that are in the DMG. A Core Paladin does not get those options unless the DM uses Varient (therefore non-core) rules and approves them for usage. At which point he has to maintain their balance against everyone else. If you consider a Paladin powerful because he compares well with Varient and non-core material against people who aren't using it. You are not making a good case for the Paladin. All Core classes can actually pay for creatures like a Hippogriff to be trained. Given that these are winged mounts that are quite strong, it actually beats the Paladins mounted options because they suffer none of the limitations of Paladin Mounts. If a Paladin uses one of these mounts, he infact looses all his mount related benefits, including spells that only effect his special mount and his special mount benefits. Also, his mount can be negated with various spells. Cast Blashphamy on a Paladins Special Mount and watch both drop. The same cannot be said for standardly aquired mounts, who at most might be seduced by an opposing Ranger or Druid. If you can't kill the mount, just take out the Rider, it's not that hard and the Paladin has no inherent benefits on ranged opponets. Being a Melee Charger doesn't help if you can't actually get into melee or charge. If you're a Human Paladin it doesn't help the people who aren't Human Paladins. Finally, Divine Feats are automatically broken.
Koga:The ninja trick 08-18-05, 10:01 AM	They're not WEAK, they just have trouble standing out.. The Koga changed them as well as many other classes for his own Zelda-like campaighn he's working on. Itn involves no spells, and getting double the amount of smites. It sounds like a big buff, but The Koga had to buff all of the classes almost and lower the power of divine casters, it's like the universe revolves around them on a quantamn scale or something.. (The Koga even dismissed intelligent based casters/manifestors. Not that they're terribly powerful, but wisdom/charisma sound like the axis sides for magick and psionics. Intelligence gets in the way of that. WITH the exseption of the Fidleh and Erudite, because The Koga worships Dr@gon.. though the erudite had to be tweaked too.)
babysamurai 08-18-05, 10:23 AM	I made a high Dexterity-Paladin/Rogue/Sorcerer once that was pretty cool.
Kuraito 08-18-05, 10:41 AM	I have a paladin character I like quite a bit, but I honestly od think its WAY to front loaded. I dislike hte mount (I know it rocks, I just don't like it. Personal thing.) so everything after level 4 isn't really worth it. Fortunatly, paladin meats the prereqs to quite a few nice prestige classes, most notably kensai. I would never take 20 levels in paladin though.
Votan 08-18-05, 11:41 AM	Note that a Varient Rules concearning Special Mounts in the DMG are Varient Rules that are in the DMG. A Core Paladin does not get those options unless the DM uses Varient (therefore non-core) rules and approves them for usage. At which point he has to maintain their balance against everyone else. A very minor technical point. If the variant is in the DMG then it is variant material but core (because it shows up in a core rulebook). I don't think that this particular variant rule changes the calculations enough to matter. Finally, Divine Feats are automatically broken. I'd beg to differ on the Complete Warrior divine feats. They really help the Paladin (who can use the mid-level boost desperately in an elite array game)but require the cleric to make a serious investment in charisma to use effectively. They don't seem to push much out of wack if anything at all.
DeadEye19 08-18-05, 11:54 AM	Someone mentioned earlier that ride by attack is useless when someone is readying an attack against you.Not true. You can only ready a single attack.The ride-by paladin can deal double damage with a lance\with a spirited charge, so he probably does more damage, unless your opponent has a spear of some kind. You can also ride by one opponent, and on the next one- ride by a different one.If the first readied an action, he just wasted his turn... And the other one is probably not ready for it. Ride by go well with sprited charge,which adds to it's worth. Overall, the mount is really improving the paladin.Note that the mount's ability scores increase with it's HD, and it gains new feats- that can add to it's attacks,defence or HP. If you can, try to invest on it's armor- something that does not hinders it's movement but adds to the AC. As for smite, it's very usefull going into high and epic levels, though most of the players probably play low to mid levels, where there are only few smites a day and they don't add much damage, though if you have power attack (though you might have invested more on mount feats) you can add more. A good thing to try is actually smiting on your 2nd or even 3rd attack, since the first one's chance of hitting is good enough, so the cha bonus to attack improves your chances of dealing damage with your secondery attacks, which are more likely to be blocked otherwise, You are risking your precious smites, so be careful. Keep in mind this Extra Smiting is not core, so many don't have it. Remember that role play is important (not only for paladins).
Nyferto 08-18-05, 12:15 PM	A very minor technical point. If the variant is in the DMG then it is variant material but core (because it shows up in a core rulebook). I don't think that this particular variant rule changes the calculations enough to matter. It's a very distinct point, it's not a Core option, it's as Core as Laser Guns, Explosives, Leadership and all UA material. It's not balanced, that's why the DM has to approve it. I'd beg to differ on the Complete Warrior divine feats. They really help the Paladin (who can use the mid-level boost desperately in an elite array game)but require the cleric to make a serious investment in charisma to use effectively. They don't seem to push much out of wack if anything at all. They're automatically broken because they break the limitations of the ability they use. It's like using Stunning Fist attempts to launch Fireballs, it wouldn't matter if you somehow balanced them, because they'd never be reasonable and you'd have no preceedence for their balance in the first place. Divine Metamagic is broken thrice over, because it breaks the metacaps, breaks spontaneous meta application rules and breaks the limitations of Turning, just like Domain Spontinaity - they're automatically broken. More so, if you advocate that you need non-core to survive, then Paladins must be overpowered and Fighters are completely fine because they can use non-core material too.
Votan 08-18-05, 12:33 PM	It's a very distinct point, it's not a Core option, it's as Core as Laser Guns, Explosives, Leadership and all UA material. It's not balanced, that's why the DM has to approve it. Core rules Working Definition: In the Core rulebooks Variant Rules Workign Defintion: Variations on standard rules whether introduced in core or another supplement or by DM worldbuilding. Not carefully that core is not a synomym for balanced. It's merely the set of three books (Player's Handbook, Monster Manual and Dungeon Master's Guide) that are considered to be basic ruleset required to play. Core discussions are important because different groups add different supplements and many groups use core only for financial reaosns (these books are not cheap). Core is also the material that is (mostly) availible online to form the basis for d20 systems other than WotC standard D&D. So, yes, laser guns are core but optional. The same thing with the Paladin mount rules. Now, it is a valid argument that say that balancing a class around an optional rule is a dodgy proposition. But if Joe the Dwarf has a DMG laser pistol and that is what balances him then he is still in a core campaign -- just one that is using optional material to balance the rules.
KnolanCross 08-18-05, 08:01 PM	The divine feats need one standard action to be activied, so to active divine shield AND divine Might you will have to use 2 actions. If you com pare a paladin and a fighter of the 12 level, considering it is using a katana 2 size categories bigger than medium (Katana proficience + Monkey grip) would have attacked 6 times for 3d8 each attack.
Kurama Youko 08-18-05, 11:39 PM	Krolan, umm im sure it doesnt work that way, just because you took Exotic Weapon Proficency Katana (bastard sword) doesnt make you proficient with using a larger version of a katana in both hands. So taking on Monkey Grip in addition to that isnt gonna allow you to wield a huge katana.
Nyferto 08-19-05, 08:04 AM	You can dual wield two Large Katana's if you have Monkey Grip and EWP. You can never wield a weapon more than two size catagories larger than you are anyway. Divine Might and Divine Shield are free actions, unless they're swift or imeadiate actions you can use two in the same round. As CW doesn't use Swift actions it must be free. Core rules Working Definition: In the Core rulebooks and not specifically listed as a Varient or alternative or an idea. So no, Not core rules by my definition, the fact that you need to offset with them would suggest that Paladins aren't balanced because the potential exists. Rather, Paladins are balanced because they're quite good if you use them right and they have a good range of abilities. At least that'd be my arguement as to why Paladins aren't particually underpowered. Then again I think Fighters are fine.
Thelon Fairblade 08-19-05, 09:14 AM	Paladins do get new abilities after 4th. They're called spells. Okay, so maybe not the most amazing thing, but being able to pick up a rusty old sword and make it a +5 holy weapon with magic circle vs evil isn't too shabby. Divine Favor, Bless Weapon, Bull's Strength... these are all options for the mid-level paladin, plus Greater Magic Weapon on his own equipment. (And note, Lesser Restoration is a *1st* level Paladin spell - he gets it at the roughly the same time as the cleric or Favored Soul. Not "overpowering" by any means, but a nice tidbit that helps the party and isn't hampered by low CL.) Or Eagle's Splendor, for +2 saves and +2 more on smite, plus any other effects from feats "core" or not...
Kurama Youko 08-19-05, 11:52 AM	two wield Two Large Katana's (katana's made for a Large Creature.) You'd have to Have Monkey Grip, EWP and Oversized Two Weapon Fighting (I think thats then name of the feat.) because monkey grip states you cannot wield a larger weapon in your off hand. By this im assuming they mean you cannot wield a larger version of a normally possible off hand weapon such as no Large versions of Short Swords. So yeah, you'd need to get OSTWF to mitgate the clause in Monkey Grip.
Votan 08-19-05, 01:09 PM	So no, Not core rules by my definition, the fact that you need to offset with them would suggest that Paladins aren't balanced because the potential exists. Rather, Paladins are balanced because they're quite good if you use them right and they have a good range of abilities. At least that'd be my arguement as to why Paladins aren't particually underpowered. In some cases the defintion of terms is open ti debate. There are 3 core rulebooks. In these books there are rules. These are the core rules. If you want to make up new defintions for words and terms then feel free but then do not feel astonished when you are uninterpretable.
solbergb 08-19-05, 02:08 PM	Regarding mounted combat specialists and flying opponents. Two words: Air walk (if divine caster is in the party) or Phantom Steed (if arcane caster is in the party). By the time you see a lot of fliers, a little help from your friends means you can charge stuff in 3 dimension. Fly spells of course also work. Paladins are good fighters in the same way rangers are. They're kinda like "Favored Enemy Evil". They have good stuff against evil opponents, and are average melee combatants against others, but with better saves and social skills. Their mount is durable, the best bonded companion this side of a Druid, and unlike the Druid's mount, it is intelligent. This means its range of action doesn't depend on pre-defined tricks. Small size palleys can use their mount in more places but it isn't as tough. There's an ok tradeoff. They're as good as the other melee combatants. It's a different argument how that stacks up against spellcasters.
thepuregamer 08-19-05, 02:10 PM	As I said before, I would like to know how the unusual mount rules in the dmg are either non core or variant? There is never any mention of them being either since 1 they are in a core book and they are not called variant in the book. Other variant rules in the dmg are listed as such and thus it seems that the unusual mount rules are not variant but rather unusual. Making them perfectly in line with the phb's paladin. This is seriously the first time Ive heard the dmg called noncore.
Votan 08-19-05, 02:19 PM	As I said before, I would like to know how the unusual mount rules in the dmg are either non core or variant? There is never any mention of them being either since 1 they are in a core book and they are not called variant in the book. Other variant rules in the dmg are listed as such and thus it seems that the unusual mount rules are not variant but rather unusual. Making them perfectly in line with the phb's paladin. This is seriously the first time Ive heard the dmg called noncore. Careful checking dnotes that while the section before has a variant feat (labeled as such) the unusual mount sections says nothing about thes ebeing variant rules. If the DMG is not core than we can get rid of these annoying things called magic items as well. After all, they are not in a core book. Prestige classes follow next as do traps and maybe even ability checks (see the section beginning on page 30). Sigh. It explicitly uses a Griffon as an example of a Paladin mount with progresison as a mount delayed by 4 levels.
ninjarabbit 08-19-05, 04:28 PM	Paladins do get new abilities after 4th. They're called spells. Okay, so maybe not the most amazing thing, but being able to pick up a rusty old sword and make it a +5 holy weapon with magic circle vs evil isn't too shabby. Divine Favor, Bless Weapon, Bull's Strength... these are all options for the mid-level paladin, plus Greater Magic Weapon on his own equipment. (And note, Lesser Restoration is a *1st* level Paladin spell - he gets it at the roughly the same time as the cleric or Favored Soul. Not "overpowering" by any means, but a nice tidbit that helps the party and isn't hampered by low CL.) Or Eagle's Splendor, for +2 saves and +2 more on smite, plus any other effects from feats "core" or not... Except a paladin can take a PrC that advances spellcasting since spells are tied to your paladin level.
Earthcrosser599 08-19-05, 05:05 PM	Once a paladin hits level 5 I don't see a whole lot of incentive to remain one instead of multiclassing. Divine Sacrifice is the most common spell I see paladins use and with a Pearl of Power you can offset the low number of usages per day compared to higher levels if you PrC into something that doesn't advance spellcasting. Generally speaking, the straight 15th level paladins I see suck compared to those that PrC.
Lilt 08-19-05, 05:52 PM	Once a paladin hits level 5 I don't see a whole lot of incentive to remain one instead of multiclassing. Divine Sacrifice is the most common spell I see paladins use and with a Pearl of Power you can offset the low number of usages per day compared to higher levels if you PrC into something that doesn't advance spellcasting. Generally speaking, the straight 15th level paladins I see suck compared to those that PrC.The same can be said of many, many, classes. In-fact I think it can be said of every class with the exception of druid and some of the newer non-core base classes like Spellthief. Talk of the difficulties of mounted combat all you like, but the paladin is one of the few characters who won't have their mount taken out from underneath them. There are also a number of powerful mounted combat PrCs which require a special mount to enter. Smite can make a huge difference damage-wise, especially on a x3 (or more) damage charge. Paladin turn-undead is a joke for actually turning undead with, but is useful when used to fuel divine feats. With the above said, however, I do agree that the paladin class lacks meat.
Lord shadow35 08-19-05, 06:00 PM	Paladin is not underpowered. If you think druid is the most powerful try wiz or fighter.
shinjinbukai 08-19-05, 06:11 PM	This is what all paladins do in all games i have ever seen. (in real professional games anyways none of the dark paladin stuff) Paladins make every other job around them preform better. Melee/Range People: Paladin serve as another person to take damage therefore making the people longer to live likely and therefore more damage to mob. Spellcaster: Makes them live longer than 2 seconds what else? Personal reasons: Good people love you, when you die it is 99% likely u get to heaven, You always get quests to get exp from, people want to PT with you, you are well rounded. Paladins are designed to help with everything. Therefore they arent weak just misunderstood in there role.
Centauri 08-19-05, 06:35 PM	As for Ride-By Attack, tell me what you think about this. The Battle Grid isn't really there, it's just something to help figure out where people are in relation to each other. The actual squares can have any orientation you want. Say you have a creature, and that creature is surrounded by squares on the grid. No matter where you are in relation to that creature, it's possible (at least in your head) to turn the grid so that one edge of the surrounding square of squares lines up with you. One corner of that edge is "the closest space from which you can attack the opponent." If you're using Ride-By Attack, the straight line you took to get to that square continues on to the side of the creature. Since it's possible to turn the battlegrid to make this happen, you can forego turning it and just allow basically the same thing to happen. The only snag is the wording "directly toward." If you move "directly toward" the corner of the imaginary lined up row, you're not exactly moving "directly toward" the target. But, c'mon. Common sense and what most of us know of jousting tell us that it's possible to ride past an enemy and attack it.
Tyler9 08-19-05, 08:16 PM	What are you talking about? I love palidins :love: . They are my absolute favorite class!
FreeTheSlaves 08-20-05, 12:24 AM	They're automatically broken because they break the limitations of the ability they use. It's like using Stunning Fist attempts to launch Fireballs, it wouldn't matter if you somehow balanced them, because they'd never be reasonable and you'd have no preceedence for their balance in the first place. Divine Metamagic is broken thrice over, because it breaks the metacaps, breaks spontaneous meta application rules and breaks the limitations of Turning, just like Domain Spontinaity - they're automatically broken. Agreed. :( If turning ability was supposed to do what they allow with the supplements then it should have had some precedent in the core rules. Instead what they've done is pick up on an open-ended sentence under the turning rules & introduced completely new mechanics. :confused: Now we've commonly got paladin characters competing with fighters for constant average damage output via divine might (the chief culprit); which was what _noone_ was supposed to do & was why weapon specialization took 4 _fighter_ levels. :eek: Having become thoroughly disillusioned with supplementary material I don't really know anything about this divine magic; but it probably carries on the power creep tangent which invalidates 'core rules only' characters. :weep: **** All this aside, when I get to be a player I've got an elite array, core rules only paladin & he contributes just fine. :)
Lilt 08-20-05, 04:38 AM	If you think druid is the most powerful try wiz or fighter.I wasn't saying that druid was powerful, I was saying that it's probably the class that goes best without PrCing. I'd also wager that a druid would beat a fighter most days, but I'll not discuss that here because it's off-topic for this thread. I quasi-agree with the statement that divine feats are 'automatically broken'. If they were used to increase effectiveness versus undead then I don't think they'd be broken whatsoever. Allowing a previously specialised ability, only useful against a fraction of opponents, to be used for other purposes against all opponents is potentially broken. It seems fairly likely to change the game dynamics in a way that leaves divine-feat users a cut above non-divine-feat users. There are multiple uses of the work broken, however, with multiple magnitudes. As it happens I think that divine feats are not game-breaking by their nature. Even if they are broken in the sense that they may change the game dynamics, they don't break the game as a whole by their nature. It's not like 3.0 haste which simply *everyone* needed somehow (boots/armor/the spell/custom magic items) as it let fighters move then full attack and casters cast twice. Now I do agree that Divine Metamagic breaks the game to some extent. One feat out of the 17 or so available doesn't really sound like 'automatically' breaking anything, however. You may as-well say that all feats are broken because a broken feat exists. If I saw fighters, rangers, and barbarians taking class levels that granted Turn Undead and upping their charismas so that they might use divine feats then I might be inclined to agree that they were game-breaking, but I've never seen that done. Has anyone seriously seen someone with a non-divine build re-hash it and take a level of cleric and a +6 charisma cloak (sorcs and bards pronanly have the cloak already) so that they might take divine feats? I've seen a bard build take 2 levels of paladin for the divine grace, but even then the other two levels for turn undead were not worth it. As for the feats being a good choice for chartacters that already have turn undead: You may as well complain that new spells are automatically broken because they can be good choices and do things with spell slots of particular levels that weren't possible with existing spells. Yes, some of them may be broken like Wraithstrike and some divine feats may be broken like Divine Metamagic, but they are not 'automatically broken'.
Nyferto 08-20-05, 06:01 AM	The entire chapter is dedicated to varient rules. Nothing is labled varient rules because it's all varient rules. If it was a Varient of a Varient, it wouldn't be any different because it would be surrounded by Varients and it would be a varient rule. The words "At the DM's discretion", or "At the DM's option" or words to the effect that the DM may allow things if he deems it apporpriate typically mean they're not core rules, but core varients. All special Mount rules have the clause that a DM has to approve them. Core material does not have such requirements, it is everything the Core books present that the DM does not have to automatically adjudicate as being balanced. Ride By Attack: Can't believe someone questioned it again, dispite given the exact reasons it's not that good. It doesn't matter if you rotate the "Grid", you still have to be positioned exactly right. Jousting does indeed work this way, sadly Jousting has bugger all to do with an active combat field.
General_Ridley 08-20-05, 01:57 PM	Combine Fighter with Paladin and Platinum Knight. You get a few bonus feats, Divine Grace, Bahamut's Grace, and some other stuff too, but those three are the biggies. The feats can open to some good Fighting feats, while the two graces in effect put double your charisma in all of your save. Its how I use the Paladin class anyway.
dreamershewolfpal 08-20-05, 03:43 PM	ok.... I have played my fair share of paladins as well as other classes and paladins are my absolute favorite! But let me tell you why---- because they have proven to be the most effective in battle. That is if you actually see the game out and don't quit at 3rd or 5th level because you can't get your stuff together like some people I know! My favorite character had a dire wolf as her special mount. If you know how to use your spells effectively along with your special abilities and feats all at the same time.... you have a very potent character. Example: If I have a 10th level paladin, and before I go spirited charging in with my mounted combat bonuses I make sure that I cast Bull's Strength on myself (which also affects my mount because I'm riding and all his attacks recieve the same bonuses for that spell) I also take the time (which I should have already had this on unless it was a sneak attack) to cast protection from evil/chaos and bless weapon or any other spells that would be useful in battle if I have the time. Then you declare the smite evil as you are charging in! Do the math and you tell me that isn't a whole lot of damage in one turn for a pc to do.... imagine if you crit? I've had all my spells on before and used that massive attack and double critted before! I guess I got lucky... and boy did I need it but.... well let's just say that I did well over a 100 points of damage to the forces of evil in that one turn :D It was a good day!
TheDarkestOfAngels 08-20-05, 04:32 PM	I was reading some threads about it, and I'm pretty much convinced that they are the weakest class in the books. Thought, I have never played as a Paladin, cause I'm mostly likelly to be the DM, so far i have played as: Ranger (3.5 - great class), Druid (the best in my opinion), warrior (very stilish one, fighting with a huge katana - k, not that big...) and cleric... that's AFAI can remember. He doesn't get much damage ability, have multiple atributes dependence and lack of class abilities. The only good thing he gets are his save throws... I do agree that the paladin is pretty front-loaded, although normally I lean on more spell-heavy classes like the wizard and sorcerer. (Although now, in the only game I'm a player in, I'm a silvanesti swashbuckler/fighter going dervish and later tempest in a Dragonlance campaign.) ... anyway, the pally works well in any but the lowest point buy systems, which really hurt any class. I'm running a Paladin Half-Orc DMPC (because the party lacks a decent tank and right now, plus they're only a 3-person group - I don't use him as much other than helping the PCs get into plot hooks and being the party meat-shield) who has an 18 str, 8 dex, 10 con, 11 int, 13 wis, 12 cha - and he's doing great. (I use 25 point-buy) and he did great. (he also has power attack and one other feat that escapes me at the moment.) So I don't believe that point buy is a problem. Though back to my main point, I would agree that a lot of the paladin's better powers are front-loaded at early levels. It's not as bad in 3.5 as it was in 3e becuase of the fact that it can gain multiple smites over levels and many of its nice powers do go up in power as the paladin goes higher in level, but hte fact of the matter is that the best things at high levels are more smiting (which can actually be aquired for through feats), smitier smiting, bettter lay on hands, and more remove disease ( :bored: ). Oh, at better spells. Not really a big thing at a glance but to a more discerning eye, the paladin's abilities really can synergize well. The paladin has access to all those nifty divine feats (sacrifice turning attempts for 733+ powers), a pretty good spell list for a class with spells as a set of strictly secondary abilities (some of them are really good), .... I suppose it comes down to the similar reasons as to why I don't think the fighter is underpowered. They don't have one thing that they're really, really, really good at doing (other than sword swinging and taking hits.) Instead, they have tons of secondary powers that synergize really well to have excellently effective overall performance. So I suppose that if you ignore things like the paladin's spells and healing and wonder why the class looks sad since it doesn't have one or two powers that can really really dish out damage (coughbarbariancough) or otherwise do one or a few things really well when it's more a bunch of secondary things that add up really well. In any case, I do think the paladin is a good class and not especially underpowered.
Blackwind 08-20-05, 05:57 PM	I've never played a character with a hit die larger than a d8 except my first game ever when somebody else handed me a premade barbarian (unless you count some deus ex machina forced multiclassing with a wizard into paladin, but I only got to play that character with the paladin level for one session, though it was fun). But whenever I get around to making a combat oriented character, a paladin is up on the list. Whenever I do it I hope to get DM permission to make the character a paladin of Wee Jas (she can have lawful good clerics, why not paladins?) and have him be very devoted to order and justice for all but still coldly methodical and even just a little bit vain, going heavily for that enforcer feel. Dude I've been barking up that tree for years with my DM. I don't really think that he's to weak in fact The paladin i'm plying right now is probably one of the most broken thinks our group has seen in a long time. At 5th leval I was going through mind flayers like candy and had vampire shaking in there boots and I don't think the underdark was to happy with me either. I think part of the problem is that they really arn't fro the standard adventuring party whith there codes and restriction in the gam we are playing now we work directly for the church so find our selves in ideal encouters for cleics and paladins. The truth of it that any class will be weak in the DM doesn't take in to acount of what the players can and can't do. I mean how many of us has seen a quest come to a pause because no one wanted to play a rogue. As a player and a DM I think it is one of the jobs of the DM to provide porpose for weach class in his game or to simply say "Sorry dude. I don't really think that a Paladin is really a good choice for this game but maybe next time how about a martial cleric"
KnolanCross 08-20-05, 07:23 PM	I believe you can use, since katana is a one-handed weapon for a medium creature, it's large version should be usable with two hands, and huge with two hands with monkey's grip.
Kurama Youko 08-20-05, 07:43 PM	The Katana (Bastard sword by equivelent): Is a Two Handed Martial Weapon by normal standards. However if you take Exotic Weapon Proficency (Katana) then just like the taking Exotic Weapon Proficency (Bastard Sword) you can wield it in one hand. The rules for two weapon fighting state that unless you want a -4 penalty to your off hand attack your off hand weapon has to be a light weapon, light weapons are the weapons listed right before one handed ones in the 3.5 PHB. The Monkey Grip Feat allows you to use a weapon one size catagory larger than normal with the same apttitude but with a slight penalty. (probably do to encumberance), thus the situation is now you have a Large creatures Katana in your primary hand (2d6 I believe) and a larger creatures light weapon in your off hand, example a ogre's short sword or rapier. Oversized Two Weapon Fighting is next which would allow you to use a weapon of equal length in your off hand that you use in your primary hand, thus another large creature's katana. As far as trying to wield a huge creatures Katana you would need to take the Epic Feat Over Sized Weapon.
TheDarkestOfAngels 08-20-05, 07:53 PM	As far as trying to wield a huge creatures Katana you would need to take the Epic Feat Over Sized Weapon. keep in mind that that feat only removes the penalty that monkey grip gives.
Kurama Youko 08-20-05, 07:58 PM	Really? I havent seen the feat in ages so I have no real memory of what it does, I think I only read it once and even then only a quick glance. Well I guess outside of being a large creature with money grip or powerful build you can't do it. :)
Humanculus 08-20-05, 08:43 PM	if you think the paladin is underpowered that is your opinion... but not everyone's and it's pointless to argue one way or the other. I love my paladins, but that is my opinion. I did notice that there is a lot of talk of smite evil, have u guys looked at the Shadowbane Inquisitor from CAdv? They add a new smite called Smite Curropt and if you deam the person curropt then bam... u can even smite another Paladin if he pisses you off enough! They combine sneak attack, smites, and stealth in one great package. until next time... long live Divine Shield
Dark0001 08-20-05, 09:41 PM	I'm a bit new to this, so please indulge me.. I'm not really understanding what the issue is with the Charge/Ride by Attack/Spirited Charge. I understand you have to have a straight line to the nearest space from which you can attack your opponent. The Ride by attack allows you to move after your attack in the same line as your charge. It had always seemed to us that this feat essentially overroad the inability to overrun as part of a charge. So we always played that if you could get to "that square" to attack, you could move through your opponents square automatically. If someone could point me to some errata that says this isn't the case, I'd appreciate it...or explain why or reasoning is incorrect - we'd like to make sure we got it right. Thanks
FreeTheSlaves 08-20-05, 09:49 PM	I'm a bit new to this, so please indulge me.. I'm not really understanding what the issue is with the Charge/Ride by Attack/Spirited Charge. I understand you have to have a straight line to the nearest space from which you can attack your opponent. The Ride by attack allows you to move after your attack in the same line as your charge. It had always seemed to us that this feat essentially overroad the inability to overrun as part of a charge. So we always played that if you could get to "that square" to attack, you could move through your opponents square automatically. If someone could point me to some errata that says this isn't the case, I'd appreciate it...or explain why or reasoning is incorrect - we'd like to make sure we got it right. Thanks I always interpreted it as tacit agreement that a charge can be done when the attack is delivered to the side or on a diagonal from the target, rather than a charge must push right up directly in their face.
Jordanis 08-20-05, 09:53 PM	I wouldn't say that the paladin is underpowered or anything. Paladin is actually my favourite class (even if they are hard to play since you have to uphold a code or lose your abilities; That's what makes them great!), it's just unfortunate that it's almost pointless to play them after 6th level without taking a prestige class. I'd like to see maybe another class ability or two, but at the same time, I've always thought that the great thing about playing a paladin isn't just the abilities, it's the challenge and the roleplaying ability incorporated. Paladins, in my opinion, are only suitable for play by mature and accomplished gamers.
Aristulous 08-20-05, 10:06 PM	I put this up on Optimization but didnt get much of a response. I guess that's a good thing... Am I on track with this build? it seems pretty straight forward for even a newbie like me. The DM is a "little" flexible so long as the multi-classing makes sense. I want to fight with a high AC while dungeon crawling at times. Good thing about the Cav PrC is that my Paladin Special Mount "stacks" with this PrC Our Group has an Orc Fighter w/greatsword, Rogue, Bard, Cleric, Wizard Sources allowed: Core (3.5)... WOTC Splat books like CW or Heroes of battle (3.5)... Eberron of course but no Forgotten Realms or Unearthed Arcana. Human Fighter: 2 lvl Paladin: 6 lvl Cavalier: 10 lvl (as listed in Complete Warrior) Back to Paladin at lvl 19??? or I might start taking levels in Legendary Leader as listed in Heroes of Battle. I just think the PrC is cool. STR: 14 DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 12 (13 at lvl 4... combat expertise when on foot) WIS: 10 (My Cav PrC will not "stack" my spellcasting at all) CHA: 14 (18 at lvl 20) Equipment @ 1st Level: Chain Tower Shield (I think it's cool despite the -2 to attack) It's a good trade if compared to Combat Expertise. Feats: Fighter 1st Level: Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack, Spirited Charge Fighter 2nd Level: Weapon Focus (Lance) needed for Cav PrC Paladin 3rd Level: Trample (I need this for future "Cavalary Charger" feat in CW) Paladin 6th Level Combat Expertise (on foot combat) Cavalier lvl 9 Divine Might... Complete Warrior (great for foot/mounted) Cavalier lvl 12 "Cavalry Charger" feat in Complete Warrior) Cavalier lvl 15 ?????? Pally or Legendary Leader(from Heroes of Battle) lvl 20 ?????? Thoughts on future Feats were "Improved Critical - Lance) and Improved Toughness. I was even thinking Dodge because our DM increased the AC bonus to +2. I havent bought Hero's of Battle yet but I think I need Leadership feat for that PrC. I'll have to go out and buy it today. Everything about Eberron screams "Major War" in the future so it would be fun to see my character do some damage in that scenario. BTW... Anyone know of any other Mounted Feats?
TheDarkestOfAngels 08-20-05, 10:08 PM	Really? I havent seen the feat in ages so I have no real memory of what it does, I think I only read it once and even then only a quick glance. Well I guess outside of being a large creature with money grip or powerful build you can't do it. :) well, I believe it was first iterated in the Epic Level Handbook as pretty much Monkey Grip (which had been released in Sword & Fist earlier,) but epic and without the associated penalty. It has recently been re-iterated in the complete warrior with Monkey Grip as a prerequisite to the feat - which pretty much just removed the -2 penalty to wield a larger weapon. The best a character with either feat could do is wield a large 2H weapon (like a large fullblade - a regular full blade cannot be used by a medium creature at all unless they have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat.) or a large greatsword or whatever.
KnolanCross 08-21-05, 09:11 PM	I'm sorry, but i couldn't understand why i can't use a huge katana (bastard sword). A large katana would be weared with both hands by a medium creatura (just like a greatsword), a huge katana should be used the same way a large greatsword.
TheDarkestOfAngels 08-21-05, 10:57 PM	I'm sorry, but i couldn't understand why i can't use a huge katana (bastard sword). A large katana would be weared with both hands by a medium creatura (just like a greatsword), a huge katana should be used the same way a large greatsword. You'd take penalties - same as using a large longsword like a greatsword. You're thinking about a large fullblade, which you could use with the requisite proficiency feat and monkey grip.
Nyferto 08-22-05, 03:25 AM	You can't even use a weapon more than 1 size catagory larger than you are. You can't use a Huge weapon as a medium creature.
TheDarkestOfAngels 08-22-05, 04:50 AM	You can't even use a weapon more than 1 size catagory larger than you are. You can't use a Huge weapon as a medium creature. a large fullblade isn't a huge weapon. (I think he was getting confused between 3.0's weapon sizing and 3.5's)
Kurama Youko 08-22-05, 05:31 AM	I think thats what it is to, in 3.0 they used terms like Tiny, Small, Medium, and Large for weapons that were designed for Medium sized individuals. This would lead people to call a greatsword a large weapon, but it should be noted that its not large because its intended for a ogre to use its large because thats how they described two-handed weapons back then. heck even by those standards a Katana (bastard sword) was worded as being a Medium sized weapon, if you took monkey grip you'd still only be using a larger one designed for a ogre.
SlashDash 08-22-05, 06:46 AM	I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but why do everyone compare paladins to other warriors (rangers, fighters, barbarians etc) due to their ability to use Spirited Charge? That is *NOT* a paladin ability. It's a plain and simple feat that can be taken by ANYONE. In fact, the Fighter will gain mostly of it because he has so many feats to spare and the Paladin has so little.
Kurama Youko 08-22-05, 06:53 AM	for the same reason people compare the cleric to the favored soul, sure they don't have all the strengths of that class but they resemble it enough that people want to relate it to that.
Nyferto 08-22-05, 06:59 AM	Well there's a difference between item size, etc. You didn't have weapons for sizes (so much) as you do now. 3.0 Weapon sizes determined who could use what and how. They still exist in 3.5 (A Two Handed medium weapon is in fact medium in size) but they aren't the basis for Monkey Grip.
Votan 08-22-05, 07:04 AM	I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but why do everyone compare paladins to other warriors (rangers, fighters, barbarians etc) due to their ability to use Spirited Charge? That is *NOT* a paladin ability. It's a plain and simple feat that can be taken by ANYONE. In fact, the Fighter will gain mostly of it because he has so many feats to spare and the Paladin has so little. I think the reason is that the Paladin's mount makes mounted combat at high levels more viable for a Paladin than for most other classes. Therefore, if you want to compare a Paladin at the core of their strength, it is using all class features (i.e. the mount) to maximum effect (which tends to include looking at a Paladin who spent feats to support this competency). Insofar as mounted combat is suboptimal it impacts on the class as that particular class feature then becomes less important. If mounted combat is highly valuable, then the class that can summon a mount (never be separated from one in viable terrain) at will with enhanced survivablity and intelligence will obviously have a valuable role compared to those classes without that feature.
Lilt 08-22-05, 07:05 AM	I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but why do everyone compare paladins to other warriors (rangers, fighters, barbarians etc) due to their ability to use Spirited Charge? That is *NOT* a paladin ability. It's a plain and simple feat that can be taken by ANYONE. In fact, the Fighter will gain mostly of it because he has so many feats to spare and the Paladin has so little.Average heavy warhorse HP: 30 Average damage of a CL9 fireball: 31.5 Basically: Mounts other than special mounts and animal companions (and similar) become too fragile to ride into combat. Mounted combat only helps against one attack per round, and once your mount is gone then your mounted combat feats become essentially useless.
Ectoplasmoid 08-22-05, 02:01 PM	True, and everybody always forgets that the paladin abilities do scale with level, so just for Spirited Charge+Lance+Smite+Power Attack+ use-activated item of true-strike= 120 damage in core, with no weapon enhancements or strength bonuses applied, usable 5 times per day. Although the paladin should probably get 1 free miracle per lifetime.
KnolanCross 08-22-05, 02:13 PM	Okay, now I get it, thanks.
Kurama Youko 08-22-05, 03:44 PM	Well there's a difference between item size, etc. You didn't have weapons for sizes (so much) as you do now. 3.0 Weapon sizes determined who could use what and how. They still exist in 3.5 (A Two Handed medium weapon is in fact medium in size) but they aren't the basis for Monkey Grip. exactly.
SlashDash 08-23-05, 08:12 AM	Average heavy warhorse HP: 30 Average damage of a CL9 fireball: 31.5 Basically: Mounts other than special mounts and animal companions (and similar) become too fragile to ride into combat. Mounted combat only helps against one attack per round, and once your mount is gone then your mounted combat feats become essentially useless. You're still missing my point. A fighter can just take leadership and havea great mount of his own, a ranger\druid can have a great animal companion mount and a wizard\sorcerer\hexblade can have a great familiar mount. Oh heck, you can even have another party member that's a druid wildshapeto a mount form or a wizard polymorph into one. All of the above can be just as good (if not better) than the paladin at it. Basically Paladin's mount is equal to having improved familiar or animal companion.
EvilDuck 08-23-05, 08:24 AM	Like most non-spellcasting classes, paladins have an expiration level; theirs is after level 2 for most, and then for the rest, level 4 or 5.
Count Arioch the 28th 08-23-05, 08:44 AM	The paladin wouldn't be so bad if they had any sort of abilities past level 5. Their spellcasting and mount progression is essentially meaningless. The spellcasting ability does allow them to use curing spells as wands, which is pretty neat, I'll give you all that. But the mount? Forget leadership,. a high level fighter can BUY a decent mount that's better than a paladin's mount as far as HP and such. If you're using leadership to get you an ass-rest then you're not using the feat to the fullest potential.
Lilt 08-23-05, 11:02 AM	You're still missing my point. A fighter can just take leadership and havea great mount of his own, a ranger\druid can have a great animal companion mount and a wizard\sorcerer\hexblade can have a great familiar mount. Oh heck, you can even have another party member that's a druid wildshapeto a mount form or a wizard polymorph into one. All of the above can be just as good (if not better) than the paladin at it. Basically Paladin's mount is equal to having improved familiar or animal companion.And the druid wildshaped/wizard polymorphed into a mount is going to help your party how? It restricts them tactically to going where you want to go, stops them from spellcasting on any round where you charge, and puts them on the front line with you when you're fighting. Nobody is saying that it's not possible to have a spirited charge ranger, fighter, or barbarian, but spirited charge is a good and relatively painless path for a paladin to take (no need to take extra feats like leadership, the convenience of taking your mount anywhere) which is why so many people are talking about it. Hey, there's even a golem-like mount in the back of heroes of battle with immunity to magic. Why not buy one of them or something similar? It costs serious money. Why not use leadership? The difference between having a mount and a backup spellcaster can be phenomenal, plus you want a good charisma adding MAD to the build. Other classes are often better-off doing other things too. It's possible to take leadership for an effective mount, but I've seen leadership disallowed by GMs many, many, times. When leadership is allowed it's also possible to take leadership to gain the allegiance of a powerful spellcaster, which would generally be more effective. I've not really seen a familiar serve as a mount. What book is this from? Most of the familiars that I've seen have been Tiny. Paladins have an ability which synergises well with a spirited charge (Smite Evil, the bonus to hit garuantees the hit for massive damage, or may be traded for power attack at a 1:6 damage ratio, and the damage bonus from smite is multiplied to boot) and a free mount that's hardy enough for battle.
thepuregamer 08-23-05, 11:49 AM	What are the specifics of weapon wielding rules. I semi remember them being-- lvl of difficulty to wield increases by one for each size increase. So a medium character should be able to wield a light huge weapon two handed. Monkey grip allows you to wield a weapon 1 size larger without increasing the effort right. So one could wield a large greatsword 2handed. but can someone with monkey grip use a light gargantuan weapon 2handed?
El_Machinae 08-23-05, 01:06 PM	Aristulous Your build looks fine. But I find that Cavaliering is not really all that useful, since about 80% of the time the horse is too large. You'll really want to get the ability to cast "reduce person" on both of you (through the share spells ability). As well, getting an awakened mount (that you can pick the feats on) might really help to get more than straight charges)
Nephlite 08-23-05, 01:26 PM	Like most non-spellcasting classes, paladins have an expiration level; theirs is after level 2 for most, and then for the rest, level 4 or 5. And yet Paladin do cast spells :D I see little reason leaving Paladin before level 4 or 5. At least at level 5, you get a mount, and your Smite Evil does +5 damage.
solbergb 08-23-05, 02:01 PM	They get no NEW abilities after 5. But their existing abilities get better. Lets look at the key ones. 1. Smite evil. And I don't mean times/day (a feat can bump that up). At level 10, you do +10 damage. If you exited at 5, you do +5 damage. When you spirited charge, that's 15 more damage (30 vs 15) If you crit (more likely with bless weapon and the feat improved crit) it also increased damage. 2. Lay on hands. Multiplied by level, which means it scales as you level. A paladin is good for one "hero-sized" in-combat healing at any level. Or he can remove one party-level appropriate incorporeal from the playing field reliably. 3. Mount. If you exit paladin at 5, you won't be a mounted combatant for long unless you exited to something like cavalier or halfling outrider that advances your mount. Also your mount only stays for 10 hours at L5 which can be annoying. 4. Spells. Pearls of power help with uses, but the 2-4th level spells also help and they especially help a mounted combatant because they are shared. They also last longer, meaning that setting up a bull strength, eagle splendor, bless weapon, divine favor spirited charge is easier....only one of those spells has to be cast in combat if the party has a good scout. Then of couse there is the holy sword spell, and the heal mount spell. I've seen a couple straight paladins played into the early teens. The advancing of their existing abilities meant they scaled up into the higher levels with similar playstyle to lower levels. If you throw away the mount, they are probably a little underpowered, but if you include the mount (which doesn't even have to be ridden to be a factor, as it is intelligent and fairly combat-worthy) they're pretty solid.
SlashDash 08-23-05, 07:19 PM	And the druid wildshaped/wizard polymorphed into a mount is going to help your party how? It restricts them tactically to going where you want to go, stops them from spellcasting on any round where you charge, and puts them on the front line with you when you're fighting. I wasn't really serious with that one (although I did see it being played once), just ment to say that ANYONE can get a good mount that has more than 31 hp. Nobody is saying that it's not possible to have a spirited charge ranger, fighter, or barbarian, but spirited charge is a good and relatively painless path for a paladin to take (no need to take extra feats like leadership, the convenience of taking your mount anywhere) which is why so many people are talking about it. Relatively painless? What are you talking about?!? Taking sprited Charge means taking Mounted Combat and Ride by Attack as well. That's 3(!) feats! A paladin has 7 feats throughout his non-epic progression. A fighter has 18 feats throughout his non-epic progression. Which of the two is going to feel more pain by taking those 3 feats?!? Even if the fighter takes Leadership he is still at a HUGE advantage as a charger over the paladin. Hey, there's even a golem-like mount in the back of heroes of battle with immunity to magic. Why not buy one of them or something similar? It costs serious money. Why not use leadership? The difference between having a mount and a backup spellcaster can be phenomenal, plus you want a good charisma adding MAD to the build. Why not buy one of them? Cause I didn't know about it. Otherwise believe me I would have mentioned it as well. Leadership is not THAT much depended on Charisma (and I only gave that as a simple example). If you really want to take it that way, you can use leadership to get a spellcaster that would summon\create you a mount. Other classes are often better-off doing other things too. It's possible to take leadership for an effective mount, but I've seen leadership disallowed by GMs many, many, times. When leadership is allowed it's also possible to take leadership to gain the allegiance of a powerful spellcaster, which would generally be more effective. Of course you can do better things, my sole point here is that you can't use the argument that paladins are great due to their charging damage when other classes will easily surpass them. I'm not saying how good or bad Paladins are, just trying to explain to you there's a misconception here. Just like people tend to look at anything to do with grapple or trip is "monk turf" when clearly the fighter will outshine them in that department. A fighter has more feats to increase his fighting capablities while mounted and still have more feats available to either increase his attack power, his defense or get into a good perstiege. A ranger gets a mount, the archery feats that can go well with mounted combat and a decent spell list that helps to BUFF the mount. A paladin doesn't get anything except having a mount. Thus, if you want to play a charging mounted warrior unless you are using the super-mount cheese build there's no point into going into paladin at all. I've not really seen a familiar serve as a mount. What book is this from? Most of the familiars that I've seen have been Tiny. Check Complete Warrior. There are a few familiars there that if you take improved familiar and are of small size you can use them as mount like Winter Wolf. Paladins have an ability which synergises well with a spirited charge (Smite Evil, the bonus to hit garuantees the hit for massive damage, or may be traded for power attack at a 1:6 damage ratio, and the damage bonus from smite is multiplied to boot) and a free mount that's hardy enough for battle. This is basically the only exceptable argument in theory that lies on the subject as it is the only one that give anything that is paladin specific, however, it is false as well. Again, Power attack is a feat open to all characters. And I'm not going to repeat myself here and just say that it proves yet again that Fighters and Rangers are obviously better power-attacking-chargers. If you take power attack and spirited charge then you're at level 9 (6 if you limit yourself to humans) and have wasted more than half of your precious feats. Which makes me wonder what have you been doing all this time. Also you have very little choice in other good feats open to you (like divine feats) or even feats that are useless to you but are prereqs to perstiges. A fighter on the other hand would get all 4 feats by level 3 (level 2 if human) And as for Smite Evil?!? Well... A fighter could raise his damage\hit value with various feats. Haven't really tried punching all the numbers (too tired right now) but you can probably get a high enough bonus for an attack with a chosen weapon. And of course, fighter isn't limited in times per day. But more to the point, I think it's best to compare the Paladins in this aspect to Rangers. Both belong to the warrior classes, both get a mount and both have divine spells. The difference is Ranger's class ability synergize well with one another (mount + archery feats + buff spells + favored enemy) while paladin's do not. Also don't forget that Rangers, Fighters, Barbarians, Rogues, Monks or whomever can free multiclass with each other (to gain even more benefits) but Paladins can't. And just to show you I'm not a paladin hater, I'll give you another misconception about Paladins, in their favour this time: Paladins actually have LESS need of m.a.d then other classes. Since they have divine grace and plenty of healing they have less need for con than other characters. In fact it's a dump stat for them. Wisdom isn't really needed either, just to make sure that as some point or another you get at least 14. You can easily get that with items. Dexterity isn't an issue either, if you're not using ranged weapon and you don't care about reflex save. Int is a total dump stat, which means that basically you only need Charisma and Strength.
Aristulous 08-23-05, 09:51 PM	I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but why do everyone compare paladins to other warriors (rangers, fighters, barbarians etc) due to their ability to use Spirited Charge? That is *NOT* a paladin ability. It's a plain and simple feat that can be taken by ANYONE. In fact, the Fighter will gain mostly of it because he has so many feats to spare and the Paladin has so little. Celestial Mount Feat (Req: Paladin 4th Level) from Book of Exalted Deeds empowers the Paladin even more. Works out even better if playing a Halfling Paladin who can bring his mount into tight quarters like dungeons. I would start at taking 2 levels of Fighter before taking Paladin at 3rd level. Taking the Cav PrC or Halfling Outrider PrC stacks with a Paladins Special Mount. Encounters rip through a "normal" mount too easily after a certain level. A Celestial Mount is a pretty tough cookie at high levels and with natural Paladin Protections w/celestial abilities Feats: Fighter 1st Level: Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack, Spirited Charge Fighter 2nd Level: Weapon Focus (Lance) needed for Cav PrC Paladin 3rd Level: Trample (I need this for future "Cavalary Charger" feat in CW) Paladin 6th Level:Celestial Mount (Book of Exalted Deeds) Cavalier 9th Level "Cavalry Charger" in Complete Warrior Max out Cav PrC and throw in some Halfling Outrider if your a Hobbit. Gotta LOVE the Quadruple damage with a Melee weapon... Quintuple damage with a Lance when he reaches 10th level as Cavalier PrC !!! It's hard to build a good Cavalier without Fighter Levels/Cav Prc. It's all about keeping your Mount alive which is fairly easy to do with a Paladins Special Mount and Celestial Feat
ninjarabbit 08-23-05, 10:36 PM	The Complete Adventurer feats like devoted tracker and devoter performer let you stack paladin abilities like smite with other classes, giving you less of a reason to stay pure paladin. For example a paladin5/ranger4 with the devoted tracker feat will have the smiting ability of a 9th level paladin.
Votan 08-23-05, 10:50 PM	And just to show you I'm not a paladin hater, I'll give you another misconception about Paladins, in their favour this time: Paladins actually have LESS need of m.a.d then other classes. Since they have divine grace and plenty of healing they have less need for con than other characters. In fact it's a dump stat for them. Wisdom isn't really needed either, just to make sure that as some point or another you get at least 14. You can easily get that with items. Dexterity isn't an issue either, if you're not using ranged weapon and you don't care about reflex save. Int is a total dump stat, which means that basically you only need Charisma and Strength. There are two versions of MAD: 1) The class requires ability XYZ to be effective. 2) The class improves with the increase of XYZ ability. When you have type #1 MAD< the class requires many abilities to be effective. A monk requires Str for grappling, Dex for AC, Wis for AC and DCs and Con for hit points as d8 is low. A monk is enhanced by a decent INT given a solid skill list. Only Cha is not directly contributing to the power and flexibility of the class. This is a MAD class. A fighter requires strength for damage. He is enhanced by Con for hit points. He has improved feat access with a modest INT or DEX. WEis helps a little with a will save. CHA does not directly contribute. This is not a MAD class. A Paladin: STR -- drives melee attack ability and is needed for heavy armor (critical) DEX -- modest dex (12) enhances AC CON -- decent con drives hitpoints (which with a d10 improves endurance) INT -- decent skill list with several good options (diplomacy, sense motive, ride, concentration plus possibly knowledge[religion], Handle Animal and Knowledge [Nobility and Royalty]). WIS -- required for spellcasting. CHA -- most important statistic as it drives the class abilities If you have a standard point buy game (say elite array or 25-28 point buy) then it is very hard to get decent scores in all six attributes but all six do at least something to improve the character. This is MAD because it requires investment across a broad range. Compare a 28 point buy fighter vs. paladin: Fighter: Str 18 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 10 cha 8 Paladin: Str 14 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 16 Unlike the fighter, there is nowhere to draw points to create an 18 without losing something worthwhile (AC in full plate, skills, hit points, potential to cast spells). To wit: Dex -- lowering this drops max armored AC for a class focused on survivability. Not advised Con -- already lower then the fighter, further drops will adversely impact hit points especially with an unlucky roll or two at level up time. Int -- dropping this will mena fewer than 2 skills (3 for a human) maximized. Hurts alot give the skill list and the need to hav a decent ride skill to use a class feature Wis -- I can see getting a +2 wisdom item by the time you can cast level 1 and 2 spells but a +4 wisdom item can't be guarenteed. Plus, it doesn't do amazing things to dump this stat given the lowered will save. Obviously, both strength and charisma are important. Anyway, that's just my view on this.
solbergb 08-23-05, 11:14 PM	Not a bad analysis. In a 28 point game you tend to see fighter vs paladin (using humans say) kind of like this: Fighter str 16 dex 14 con 14 int 14 wis 8 cha 8 Paladin Str 14 dex 12 con 14 int 8 wis 14 cha 14 Monk Str 14 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 12 wis 14 cha 8 Note that the "moderate" investment in attributes to get the "dex" feats (improved grapple, the dodge->spring attack) and the expertise tree (expertise, trip, disarm, whirlwind) are actually quite significant if you are not rolling dice (thus averaging 13s anyway) or on 32 point buy. 13 is not moderate. You only avoid MAD on a fighter if you have a lot of points or if you don't care about certain feat trees. The fighter ironically has more skill points, the paladin is usually dumb as bricks, although with a better list, usually maxing ride and scattering the other points around. But the net/net of the "MAD" is 2 points of strength. Some Monks will dump int to get the strength up, some paladins will reduce wis and/or cha. Racial adjustments skew it larger in various directions. Regarding a mounted fighter or ranger keeping up with a mounted paladin...not without 5 levels in paladin plus a PRC that raises the mount's abilities. The ranger animal companion is a speed-bump, it is too weak to stand APL-appropriate challenges. It's helpful, it'll last longer than a storebought mount and is easier to replace, but it will die a lot. Neither the fighter or ranger can easily match the smite ability, although it is important to realize the paladin is actually weaker than either versus neutral or good opponents. The smite goes up in attack with cha, and in damage with level. The fighter equivalent is weapon spec (+1 to hit, +2 damage, and half your bonus feats from level 1-4 = 2 levels of paladin and a cha of 12) and Greater Weapon Spec (+2 to hit, +4 damage, half your bonus feats from levels 5-12 plus half your feats from 1-4)....GWS is the equivalen of a cha of 14 and 4 paladin levels. Now of course, the fighter can use the weapon over and over, and the paladin is limited in # of smites and in targets, but he can smite on any weapon, which has its points. But when it comes to the single charge that ends the fight, the Paladin has the edge if the opponent is evil, period. His mount will live to do the charge, it is intelligent so it can avoid problems that the dumber bonded or purchased mounts can't and the paladin has spells that also multiply with the charge (divine favor, bull strength, bless weapon for autocrit if he rolls a threat, etc). Noncore will tempt the Paladin to multiclass but that is true of every class. Most paladins that make it to L5 though, will tend to favor classes that advance the mount over anything else.
Votan 08-23-05, 11:40 PM	Not a bad analysis. In a 28 point game you tend to see fighter vs paladin (using humans say) kind of like this: Fighter str 16 dex 14 con 14 int 14 wis 8 cha 8 Paladin Str 14 dex 12 con 14 int 8 wis 14 cha 14 Monk Str 14 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 12 wis 14 cha 8 Note that the "moderate" investment in attributes to get the "dex" feats (improved grapple, the dodge->spring attack) and the expertise tree (expertise, trip, disarm, whirlwind) are actually quite significant if you are not rolling dice (thus averaging 13s anyway) or on 32 point buy. 13 is not moderate. You only avoid MAD on a fighter if you have a lot of points or if you don't care about certain feat trees. Well, I was assuming that the fighter was willing to give up on the feat trees for experise and combat reflexes. Not always the best move but it shows how the fighter cna be viable without being MAD. Of course, a fighter who wants lots of feat trees is insanely MAD at moderate point buy. Your paladin (while a decent build) does pay a price for dumping INT in any game where skills are commonly used. The skill list is one of my favorite parts about ebing a Paladin and it wopuld be annoying not to be able to take advantage of the expanded role it gives the Paladin out of combat. The monk build, I think, is the clearest representation of a MAD character. Only a bard is competitive with that!
Nyferto 08-24-05, 03:45 AM	True Strike items as core? Paladin Special Mounts are Core too I suppose? Seriously, read the DMG and understand what it's saying. Average spread of a Fireball 20ft. Movement speed of a Heavy Warhorse 50ft I'd use readied actions to get close to a caster, mess with their targeting and get the AOO because they didn't think to cast defensively. Pegasai Mounts 1000gp trained and ready - must be Neutral or Good Hipogriff's similar Spider Eater - 3000gp can attack by itself None of these have the disadvantages that a Paladin mount does. Note that none of the Paladins mount abilities would apply to those mounts. Also note that the frequency you encounter a Fireballing enemy is also the frequency that a Wizard gets killed by a critical hit from a kobold assassin, or a Fighter meets a group of Vampires and he wasn't protected, i.e. when the DM says it does. At least I can replace mine quicker than "30 days or a level whichever is sooner". Paladins do not have the monopoly of Mounted combat. You don't have to charge to be effective in mounted combat, you just do it when you want the fighter on top to do good phsyical damage. Also note that Cavaliers can only use Deadly charge a few times per day and require a minimum of 8 levels before you even make it in.
SlashDash 08-24-05, 03:47 AM	It's hard to build a good Cavalier without Fighter Levels/Cav Prc. It's all about keeping your Mount alive which is fairly easy to do with a Paladins Special Mount and Celestial Feat That's my point. to be a good mounted charger you need to multiclass into fighter\perstiege therefore it is clear that it is not the Paladin's domain at all. All you are getting is simply a free decent mount and as I have said ANYONE can get it. Plus if you want Celestial mount that means you spend yet another feat, bringing you to a usage of 5 out of the 7 you got. You could have yourself a super mount with the Druid\Paladin\Halfing Outrider trick but that is out of the halfing outrider exploit not to mention limiting yourself a lot. Face it, Paladin can mount, but others will do it better. The remove disease ability is just plain stupid. Why would anyone care about a 4th level spell being usable 5 times a week at level 20? Even assuming you are playing in a campaign where you get diseased a lot and even if you have no cleric in the party you can just pay someone to cure you for a very cheap price. Smite evil is good (pun intended) but the truth is that at level 20 (again, unless you are wasting even more feats) is only usable for 5 attacks per day. Rage is usable per encounter and weapon spec (or other damage dealing feats) last all day. Of course rage and the likes are weaker than Smite Evil, that is suppose to be the balance, however, i you have a low number of encounters per day the Paladin would obviously look pathetic because the casters would blast everything before he even flinches (like any warrior class character) And if there is a high number of encounters per day than other warriors will out shine him. Detect Evil at will - That's about what? 500 xp with permenancy? Enough said. Divine Grace and Aura of Fear are great, don't get me wrong. In fact that they are the best thing about the Paladin, however, as mentioned above they can be obtained by other classes rather easily these days. And even if you can't accept that you have to accept the fact that since the paladin gets them at such low levels and they are not level dependent then it's basically like the 3.0 ranger: you take a few levels deep to get major bonuses without any real reason to go the whole 20 levels. And the only thing left is the turn undead - Which is great with divine feats, but again: Not level dependent. you can take it and move on to other classes. And even if you somehow want to focus your build around it, it's not optimal because you lack feat selection. Clerics lack feat selection, however clerics have powerful spellcasting and enough buffs to make for it. Paladins do not. As I said before, the best comparison for the Paladin is the Ranger. While Ranger design in 3.0 was pathetic, it got decent in 3.5. Paladin did not. A ranger can focus on one aspect of his abilities and still enjoy a good synergy from his other class abilities. A paladin's abilities might be good ideas on their own, but it makes no sense dumping them together. Yes, Paladins are viable. They can survive even at level 20, but they will never outshine ANYONE else in the party.
Nyferto 08-24-05, 07:54 AM	Oh don't bother dissing the 3.0 Ranger and how much of an improvement it got. I know people who've written essays on the stuff, surfice to say you're wrong. As for Divine Feats, Dragon recently published some I would actually consider balanced and unbroken. It's a pity Paladins focus on so much fluff that they don't get options elsewhere.
Votan 08-24-05, 09:44 AM	True Strike items as core? The rules on constructing items containing spells other than those that are listed are in the DMG. Last time I looked the DMG was one of the three core boosk. Paladin Special Mounts are Core too I suppose? Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide and Monster Manual I are the three core rulebooks. In 3.0 they even written on the front of the books so that this cannot be misunderstood. If a rule is in a core rulebook then it is a core rule. If a rule is listed as a variant rule AND in a core rulebook then it is a core, variant rule. Core does not indicate variant. For example, swift actions are not core as they do not show up in any core rulebook. They are, however, variant rules as they are required to implment the material in Complete Arcane and Complete Adventurer correctly. Precocious apprentice, on the other hand, is listed as optional. Including it is including a non-core optional rule. Guess what Paladin's mounts are? Paladin's special mounts are in the core rulebooks. I am unconvicned that the section that includes epic rules is a variant rules section but I'll not argue this. I will just ask that, in a comparison of core things, that you please stop attacking core rules as bein non-core. if you want to argue that laser pistols (also in the DMG) are optional that is a slightly different argument (and possibly even stronger). But this Paladin's special mounts thing are not core is driving me nuts because the DMG is obviously a core book. Seriously, read the DMG and understand what it's saying. Include the writing on the front of it that says core rulebook. Average spread of a Fireball 20ft. Movement speed of a Heavy Warhorse 50ft I'd use readied actions to get close to a caster, mess with their targeting and get the AOO because they didn't think to cast defensively. Range of fireball == 400 ft + 40 ft/level If the spellcaster has a concentration skill of +14 or more and is casting anywhere enar a battle than he deserves what he gets if he does not cast defensively (automatic success). All yiou can do with a readied action is either move or attack. If you are close you can attack. Far and you can move and hope for an attack of opportunity. It's not a useless tactic but lots can go wrong with it. At least I can replace mine quicker than "30 days or a level whichever is sooner". Paladins do not have the monopoly of Mounted combat. . Monopoly, no. But the ability to summon a mount into existence in the great cavern of the drow means that he'll have access to a mount more often than anybody else and his has special properties. My analogy here is combat expertise. A fighter does not have a monopoly on this feat. However, with the exception of a rogue who wants improved feint (and more survivability when doing a fighting withdrawal) nobody else normally takes it. It requires a high INT (rarely seen in Barbarians, Rangers or Paladins at moderate point buy) and full use is several feats making it a major investment. For example, a Paladin using a spiked chain to trip will require 3 feats (exotic weapon proficiency: spiked chain, combat expertise, improved trip) to be good at it. Unless the Paladin is human that will be every feat from levels 1 to 6 (as a human it is all feats from levels 1 to 3). This Paladin is now ignoring good feats like Extra Smiting (non-core) or mounted combat (core) that synergize well with his abilities. Now, a fighter is an exception. A Paladin is the best mounted charger (unless the party doesn't fight mostly evil opponents). But a Fighter is the best mounted archer (unless a very high level ranger shows up with an unusual assortment of feats). But when looking at a Paladin all of his abilities synergize well with being the knight in shining armor doing directed charges. Obviously this is the role that the Paladin will be considered in if one wants to take maximum advantage of the Paladin's abilities.
SlashDash 08-25-05, 11:12 AM	Now, a fighter is an exception. A Paladin is the best mounted charger (unless the party doesn't fight mostly evil opponents Plain and simpe NO. I'd be more than happy to change my mind if someone would give me any proof on the matter, but so far to recap everything everyone said on this thread is one of the following: 1)How good charging is - Which no one argued over. Just the validity of Paladin using Charge as a balancing factor. 2)People saying paladin is the best charager but without giving any sort of proof. The only supposable arguemt about Paladin being the best charger that was said here is that the Paladin can call his mount and thus pass obstacles that keep mounts at bay and then summon it - A)In case anyone forgot, you can only call your mount once per day. If you're talking a very low number of encounters per day, than it's absolutely pointless. The Wizard\Cleric\Druid\Sorcerer\Psion\whome ver will obliterate everything before you even get on your silly horse. Fighters, Rangers, Barbarians, Rogues and Monks can outshine the casters in a high number of encounters per day when the casters\manifesters have to save the high artileray when it is really needed. Paladins have their abilities so few times per day they fail on both occasions. B)By this arguemt you assume the Paladin, who wasted 4 feats (or 5 feats for special mount) out of the only 7 he has and barely has anything else working for him is good because he can SEPERATE himself from his mount? What are you doing the whole time you are without your mount? You'll notice that I did not bring this issue up on purpose, as it is a VERY campaign specific issue about how well you can travel with your mount thus not an objective argument. Just for the same reason I didn't bring the "what if the guy isn't evil after all" issue. However, since you brought it up: Other classes have other abilities to utilize when being parted from their mount, paladin has only Smite Evil which can be decent when you build your character around it but you already wasted 4 (or 5) feats. Just by having a mount a Paladin isn't instantly become the best charger.
SlashDash 08-25-05, 11:30 AM	Oh don't bother dissing the 3.0 Ranger and how much of an improvement it got. I know people who've written essays on the stuff, surfice to say you're wrong. The only reason I'm not going to diss 3.0 Ranger is because it is completely off topic and this thread is about the Paladin. I'd be more than happy to do it in another thread. When I first read the PHB 3.0 I laughed. When I saw other people play it I laughed. When I purposely abused it for munchikin reasons to prove the point I REALLY laughed. It was the worst design class in all of d20. But as I said, this is completely off topic and I'm not going to argue about it here. I am however going to just say one last thing on the subject, even wizards of the cost admitted how stupid the design was - Just go and read Masters of the Wild pages 12-18 (Ranger in perspecitve) which goes about every Ranger class feature and tells you plain and simple how stupid they are. Just because someone wrote an essay about it doesn't mean it's wrong. If you'll refer me to such thing I'd be more than happy to read and perhaps change my mind on the subject if the argument given is valid (which I doubt). Back to the topic at hand the reason I mentioned 3.0 ranger in the first place is the fact that dipping one level into it gave you WAY too much making it a clear cookie cutter for munchkins to abuse and in 3.5 bonuses for the two weapon fighting were spread out throughout many levels. Many other classes were shifted in a similar fashion and were given a reason to stay in the class to the higher level to gain some high ability. Even fighters (and I quote the Order of the Stick: Nobody takes 3rd level of fighter) at least has weapon specialization tree. Paladins gain NO new ability at higher level except their spells which is frankly not enough. It's a pity Paladins focus on so much fluff that they don't get options elsewhere. MY POINT EXACTLY!!!!!
Nyferto 08-25-05, 11:55 AM	Level dipping for two levels isn't much better. Adding more (but different) features onto 1st level isn't an improvement either. Votan, for gods sake. DMG, page 171 (start of the chapter), bottom of the first column. The entire chapter is one mash of Varient rules. DMG opening lines as to what the DMG is, find the definition of varient rules and what a baseline campaign is. True Strike items are not core, Paladin Special Mounts are not core, their DM options. Guidelines are not "core" and they're not baseline, you have to invent True Strike items and the DM has to price them. Guidelines are just there to guide, they do not garuntee balanced material. If you can use it for Paladins, obviously you can use different or similar items for other classes. Like Scabbard of Animal Growth or Headband of Shapechange. As for Paladins and class levels. It's not that simple, you have to find something that continues the progression of a level dependant ability. Spells can mean plenty, Death Ward and protection from evil are not to be taken lightly, neither are the numerous spells you get with Paladin levels. Whilst the splat books do plenty to aleviate some of these problems, they also validate some more levels. You can't really justify Rangers after 4-6 if you don't want some of their higher level features, munchkinism has bugger all to do with Class balance. Or rather, Multiclassing issues do not reflect the viability of a class. You might become more powerful through Multi and PrC's, but that doesn't stop you being good enough without Multi or PrC's.
Votan 08-25-05, 03:48 PM	Level dipping for two levels isn't much better. Adding more (but different) features onto 1st level isn't an improvement either. Votan, for gods sake. DMG, page 171 (start of the chapter), bottom of the first column. The entire chapter is one mash of Varient rules. Yes, including such rarely used rules as Prestige classes, creating PCs above level 1 and epic rules -- all of which are (because of the book that they are in) core rules. Anybody who uses the 3 core rulebooks can use these variants rules because they are core. COrrect use of terms makes discussion easier. DMG opening lines as to what the DMG is, find the definition of varient rules and what a baseline campaign is. Variant rules can be core if they are in a core rulebook. Variant is not indentically equivalent to non-core. DMG is core rulebook II based on the cover. True Strike items are not core, DMG page 285 to 288 -- a True strike wand cab be created for 375 gp + 30 XP. Paladin Special Mounts are not core, their DM options. DMG page 204-205. Guidelines are not "core" and they're not baseline, you have to invent True Strike items and the DM has to price them. Guidelines are just there to guide, they do not garuntee balanced material. If you can use it for Paladins, obviously you can use different or similar items for other classes. Like Scabbard of Animal Growth or Headband of Shapechange. Baseline is contained within core but is bnot core. Core contains baseline rules and variant rules. You have the baseline world which is within core. You have core variant rules (like the assassin prestige class) which are core but not baseline. You have non-core variant rules like the Cavalier or the Improved Toughness feat. Why is the concept of which book a rule is printed in cause so much trouble?
Nyferto 08-26-05, 03:41 AM	Because you're using Core like it's Baseline. Core books are the 3 books, Core games means you're using the Core Books and the Baseline rules. All varient rules means you are not playing a Baseline/Core game. Paladin mounts, PrC's, Item prices and availability, using stat generation methods other than 4d6 drop the lowest are not core: They're options. They're as optional as material in a complete or races book, they're as Core as material in some Quintisential series or UA. The DM has to aprove the use of Paladin special mounts, they are varient rules they are not standard player options (presented in the PHB), they're completely irrelevent to Core Paladin Balance because they are explicity optional and under the DM's ordain. Varient rules are varients because they are different, you can't play a Core game with all varients in application, and if a DM has to approve something it's not an issue of class balance.
Votan 08-26-05, 08:18 AM	Because you're using Core like it's Baseline. Core books are the 3 books, Core games means you're using the Core Books and the Baseline rules. All varient rules means you are not playing a Baseline/Core game. Paladin mounts, PrC's, Item prices and availability, using stat generation methods other than 4d6 drop the lowest are not core: They're options. They're as optional as material in a complete or races book, they're as Core as material in some Quintisential series or UA. The DM has to aprove the use of Paladin special mounts, they are varient rules they are not standard player options (presented in the PHB), they're completely irrelevent to Core Paladin Balance because they are explicity optional and under the DM's ordain. Varient rules are varients because they are different, you can't play a Core game with all varients in application, and if a DM has to approve something it's not an issue of class balance. "If a DM has to approve soemthign then it is not an issue of class balance . . ." I disagree. I actually wanted to agree tot his and then I considered it some more. Common and basic variants also go into the class balance discussion. Nobody has yet used this argument about a classes ability to enter a prestige class -- a variant from the same section. That's because as a core option prestige classes are widely used and so matter in a common game. Another common variant that is discussed is any ability score selection that is not elite array. It's a variant not to use the default ability score generation method but, in balance discussions, everybody feels like they need to discuss how this varies if you do alter the system. As for the baseline core thing -- it is like saying soemthign is illegal or unethical. There are things that are illegal (jaywalking) that are not unethical. There are things that are unethical (a buddhist drinking alcohol) that are not illegal. There are things that are both (murder). Ethics vary from person to person and culture to culture (just like core rules vary depending on which options you use). What is legal is specifically designated (like what book are the rules in). If what you are arguing is "Paladin special mounts are an optional rule because of the section that they are in and, while many DMs could allow them, if they are not allowed then this seriously impacts the ability of the Paladin to compete." Carefully note that the same section that has Paladin special mounts describes the rules for a Fighter gettting a mount that is not a horse -- if the DM bans one based on the section of the rules it's possible that he'll ban both (as they were placed together for a reason). Still, that is a decent argument because a Griffon massively benefits the Paladin. An intelligent buddy who can be summoned at need, act as a mount and is a formidable melee combatant (plus he flies) is better than a horse.
Nephlite 08-26-05, 12:20 PM	Paladin mounts, PrC's, Item prices and availability, using stat generation methods other than 4d6 drop the lowest are not core: They're options. They're as optional as material in a complete or races book, they're as Core as material in some Quintisential series or UA. So Point Buy isn't Core, than why does everyone allow it?
thepuregamer 08-26-05, 01:03 PM	Most of what nyferto is spouting is his opinion. If anything, he is using core as if it were baseline. Yet we already have a definition for core which is anything in the phb, dmg, or mm. Those are core books with core rules. If anything there are basic rules that nyferto is talking about but those are not the only rules that pertain to the paladin's class balance. As people have said, even though 4d6 drop lowest is the baseline stat generation method, it is not the most used method of generating characters. Point buy is. Therefore, it would not be an accurate method of determining the paladin's class balance by looking at its power through the 4d6 stat generation method because it would not represent the majority of core paladin class balance issues that derive from stats. Furthermore, Nyferto is just stating his opinion when he says that the variant rules in the dmg are basically the same as the variant rules in any other book. It is a baseless opinion that he has formed. In fact any variant rule in a core book is just as viable as the baseline because it is core. DM's are supposed to know those possible rules( that is why they are in the dmg-- the dungeon masters guide). A DM doesnn't need to have any book from the complete series because those are extra source material. But the dmg pulls much greater merit and new rules mentioned in there are put there to make sure a dm has seen every core possibility because these variant rules are valid and balanced off of the originals. It is more than extra material. The point of all this, is that limiting a discussion of class balance to baseline rules, when those are not the only rules used in a core game, is foolish, abstract, and pointless. Perhaps we should all discuss the same paladin. The one most people use.
Sir Ferdinand 08-26-05, 04:53 PM	Ok, I didn't read all of this thread, only like the 1st and 4th page, but I think I want to give my opinion on this. I think Paladins are definately not less powerful than other classes. In other words, they're about equal to every other core class there is. Here's my current Paladin build I have in other of the two campaign I'm playing in. (I don't have the papers with me, so I have to remember all of this stuff and some things might be a bit off) Human Paladin of Torm (although the campaign isn't actually set in Forgotten Realms, we still use the deities and possibly other stuff from the book), level 10. Str 16 (orig. 14) Dex 12 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 14 (orig. 12) Cha 18 (orig. 16) Hit points: A bit over 90 Skills: Ride +15-17, Diplomacy +17-19, Knowledge Nobility and Royalty +5, Knowledge Religion +5 Feats: Negotiator, Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, Leadership Special Mount: Pegasus with +4 HD (BAB, skills, feats, HP), +6 natural armor (making it total of +9), +3 Str (very nice for a flying mount to get higher light load), and +10 speed (it flies 130 ft. in a round!). Spot and listen are about +9 or so, and there was some other skill at pretty high. And I took Hover as one of the new feats, which is pretty nice actually. I don't remember the attack or damage of the mount, but it's been pretty useful in combat so far (other than the ability to fly as well). AC is 20 (natural +9, Dex +2, size -1) Equipment: +2 Longsword: Attack +15, +16 if mounted and attacking medium-sized creatures or smaller Damage: 1d8+5 +1 Warhammer: Attack +14, +15 if mounted and attacking medium-sized creatures or smaller Damage: 1d8+4 Lance: Attack +14, +15 if mounted and attacking medium-sized creatures or smaller Damage: 1d8+3 +1 Full plate, with silvered armor spikes +1 Heavy, steel shield AC: 24 (Armor +9, shield +3, dex +1, deflection +1) Some magical items: Gauntlests of Ogre Power (+2), Cloak of Charisma +2, Periapt of Wisdom +2 and some other stuff. In combat my tactics is to Charge against an enemy with spirited charge (either on land or flying, both work) and of course with a lance. It's 3d8 (lance with Spirited Charge) + 9 (Str) or in some cases 2d8 + 6 + 9 (with the sword) And with Smite Evil (and lance) it would be a very nice 3d8 + 9 + 30. That dropped one half dragon fighter(?) with one hit (ok, I was actually one level lower at that time, so it was "only" +27 from the Smite). Also with 18 Charisma my saves are very high. Fort +13, Ref +8, Will +9. And not to mention my Lay On Hands of 40. Seriously, out of our current party... or to be exact our used-to-be-current party before we encountered one large-sized red dragon (don't know the age) where all party member died except my Paladin and the party Wizard. Anyway, out of that party (Druid, Wizard, Fighter, Bard, my Paladin) my Paladin was arguably one of the better member in terms of pure power. Only the Wizard with her Fireballs can deal more damage in short term, but she doesn't dare to go against any enemy alone. I dared to go against a Vrock, and although the tactic didn't quite work out, at least I dared to challenge it. So anyway, I don't really care if someone here thinks that Paladins are weak. They are not in my opinion, and by anyone's opinion who plays in our games.