Are people trying a little too hard to improve the Sorcerer? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are people trying a little too hard to improve the Sorcerer? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek
02-07-04, 01:11 PM I have been reading a lot of the threads on trying to make the Sorcerer class better, and I have come to the conclusion that people are trying a little to hard and making the class way overpowered. They are creating a nice PrC or template, but not a core class. A core class is what gives you are basic abilities that you take and add feats or PrC to give it flavor. A lot of the threads are trying to cross a template and PrC with a core class. When you do this and then take an actual template and or PrC then you have completely thrown the balance out the door. The Sorcerer needs only minor cosmetic surgery. When you sit back and you look at the core classes, you can tell when you have overbalanced a class. Please tell me what you think? If some of you don't think that the creations are not overbalanced then please share with me why you think this and give some examples.
Mythgaard
02-07-04, 01:16 PM I just think the Sorcerer is kind of half-assed...it needs something. Floating slots are nice and all, but , in my opinion, its just an oddball variant to playing a Wizard. It needs to be its own class, not a Wizard variant.

:)
Raging Halfling
02-07-04, 04:16 PM When you compare the sorcerer to every other class in the PHb, it has absolutely nothing. Over twenty levels, it gets one class feature that scales with level and that's it. He can cast a lot of spells and that's all he's got. He's not even that versatile; he has no class skills to speak of, and a very limited spell selection.

Consider all the weaknesses the sorcerer has: poor Fort and Reflex saves, a d4 hit die, no armor, and poor spell selection makes item crafting difficult. Oh, and let's not forget that he gains new spell levels 1 level later than the other primary spellcasters. That really kills him at low levels.

The wizard, on the other hand, gets a familiar also, the same saves and hit die. Okay, good so far. But the wizard gets 4 bonus feats, which can be either Craft or metamagic feats. In addition, he gets Scribe Scroll. The wizard's spell versatility largely cancels out the advantage the sorcerer has with more spell slots, especially if the wizard's player is not an idiot and takes Craft Wand. Already the wizard is as good as the sorcerer and we still have 3 more bonus feats to go.

Beyond that, the wizard is based on Int and has a better skill list. He can take oodles of knowledge skills and has the ranks to put into them. What does the sorcerer get? He gets Bluff...after all our complaints, he got Bluff. Woo-hoo.

In case somebody thinks the sorcerer's flexability with metamagic is a huge advantage, I'll preemptively reply. Sure, metamagic is fairly cool with the sorcerer. But you'll never get Quicken spell and you don't have enough feats to spend on metamagic anyway. I consider the ability to use Quicken spell way better than spontaneous metamagic over the long run.

Don't get me wrong. I like the sorcerer, conceptually. But he got hit with a big Nerf(TM) beatstick. I do agree that some of the sorcerer classes seen on these boards are horrendously overpowered, though.
Ivellious
02-07-04, 07:43 PM If you love the sorcerer class (spontaneous casting) like i do, but find the abilities somewhat lacking, buy Tomb & Blood and find a prestige class. Loooove elemental savage

Me: I Fireball myself!
DM: *confused look* ok ... make a save
Me: *doesn't roll* No damage taken
DM: *more confused* um ... you dont have imp. evasion, and you haven't rolled ...
Me: You forgot we leveled up. I'm immune to all fire *evil grin*
DM: *sigh* *half the horde dies, and the other half, seing a suicidal sorcerer, me, runs*
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek
02-07-04, 08:56 PM Originally posted by Raging Halfling
When you compare the sorcerer to every other class in the PHb, it has absolutely nothing. Over twenty levels, it gets one class feature that scales with level and that's it. He can cast a lot of spells and that's all he's got. He's not even that versatile; he has no class skills to speak of, and a very limited spell selection.

Consider all the weaknesses the sorcerer has: poor Fort and Reflex saves, a d4 hit die, no armor, and poor spell selection makes item crafting difficult. Oh, and let's not forget that he gains new spell levels 1 level later than the other primary spellcasters. That really kills him at low levels.

The wizard, on the other hand, gets a familiar also, the same saves and hit die. Okay, good so far. But the wizard gets 4 bonus feats, which can be either Craft or metamagic feats. In addition, he gets Scribe Scroll. The wizard's spell versatility largely cancels out the advantage the sorcerer has with more spell slots, especially if the wizard's player is not an idiot and takes Craft Wand. Already the wizard is as good as the sorcerer and we still have 3 more bonus feats to go.

Beyond that, the wizard is based on Int and has a better skill list. He can take oodles of knowledge skills and has the ranks to put into them. What does the sorcerer get? He gets Bluff...after all our complaints, he got Bluff. Woo-hoo.

In case somebody thinks the sorcerer's flexability with metamagic is a huge advantage, I'll preemptively reply. Sure, metamagic is fairly cool with the sorcerer. But you'll never get Quicken spell and you don't have enough feats to spend on metamagic anyway. I consider the ability to use Quicken spell way better than spontaneous metamagic over the long run.

Don't get me wrong. I like the sorcerer, conceptually. But he got hit with a big Nerf(TM) beatstick. I do agree that some of the sorcerer classes seen on these boards are horrendously overpowered, though.

The thing is, the Sorcerer isn't meant to be the primary spellcaster. The Wizard is the standard spellcaster. The Sorcerer is more of a quick battle-mage. They don't usually create items and such, they leave that up to the Wizard. Not having to choose spells per day is a great ability for the Sorcerer, thats one reason they don't have as much as the Wizard. Yes they could use more feats, but the way the Sorcerer is designed you have to becareful what abilities you add cause it could make the class way off balance. And thats what PrC's are for, to give flavor to the characters. Thats why they were created.
Mutant for Hire
02-07-04, 09:22 PM Sorcerors were invented so that there would be a spontaneous spell-casting race instead of a Vancian spellcasting race. They were added in with great reluctance and are badly designed, possibly on purpose to discourage everyone. As a result, there is great frustration with the Sorceror class as it stands, which is a class meant to be closer to spellcasters of most fantasy books today but falls way short.

That's why people spend so much effort on it. It needs the most work and its an archetype close to people's hearts. Most people envisualize spellscasters as closer to the spell points and lists of spells known type of spellcasters than Vancian types anyway.
BlaineTog
02-07-04, 09:40 PM Xun,
A core class is what gives you are basic abilities that you take and add feats or PrC to give it flavor.
Yes, but this only works if the class actually has any abilities to speak of. The sorcerer gets a familar (which isn't even all that good, for the most part) and nothing else.

And, even though a core class should be vague, it should also be feasible to take 20 full levels in it. You can't so that with the sorcerer and maintain a playable amount of power.

To the rest of you,
This thread is a train wreck waiting to happen. The sorcerer is a hot-button issue, esspecially when soemone starts questioning it. Tread carefully.
Votan
02-08-04, 01:01 AM Originally posted by XunValDorl of HouseKilsek
I have been reading a lot of the threads on trying to make the Sorcerer class better, and I have come to the conclusion that people are trying a little to hard and making the class way overpowered. They are creating a nice PrC or template, but not a core class. A core class is what gives you are basic abilities that you take and add feats or PrC to give it flavor. A lot of the threads are trying to cross a template and PrC with a core class. When you do this and then take an actual template and or PrC then you have completely thrown the balance out the door. The Sorcerer needs only minor cosmetic surgery. When you sit back and you look at the core classes, you can tell when you have overbalanced a class. Please tell me what you think? If some of you don't think that the creations are not overbalanced then please share with me why you think this and give some examples.

The hard point with the Sorcerer is that people want to give it flavor and high level abilities to make people stick with the class for 20 levels. The Sorcerer has no abilities that scale with level (except the familiar) except spell casting (which tends to be preserved in a prestige class).

I prefer playing a Sorcerer to a Wizard. I think that balancing the Sorcerer should have been done more like the Druid was balanced with the Cleric. For example, you could give the Sorcerer the same spell progression as the wizard (in terms of number of spells per day) and remove the one level delay on higher level spells. This would make the class much closer.

If a cleric does not care about turn undead they have the same problems. No high level abilites except spells which PrCs often completely preserve.

A simpler solution would be to outlaw PrCs granting +1 caster level at level 1. Learning the rules for the new PrC costing a level of casting would reduce the desirability while still making them viable. Eldritch Knight uses this to great effect and it would make multiple dips into PrCs a harder choice for a primary caster.

The Druid is well balanced this way. There is a good rerason to be a Druid until 20th level because of wildshape improvement.

The wizard gets a few metamagic feats. Not a massive sacrifice to go Loremaster or Archmage.

The cleric gets improved turn undead. Useful vs. one type of opponent. Golly gee whiz. Hospitaller is so much better than this . . .

The sorcerer has the same basic issue. The one level delay on spells is annoying and makes a low level sorcerer weak. Fixing this would be easier than rebuilding the class.

The big problem is adding more than 2-3 feats to this class is unbalancing. Sorcerers at high levels are already very powerful. Adding "capstone" abilities to this is a dangerous task. For example, one could make a Sorcerer deadly by adding a level 20 ability that lets them quicken spells spontaneously (quicken spontaneous spell, free feat). Giving this up, even for High Arcana would be a miserably hard choice. However, the sorcerer at 20th level is now much, much better than the wizard.

Adding a free metamagic feat at 20th gives no reason to avoid Archmage. I once asked if there was any reason that an 18th level sorcerer would not take 2 levels in Archmage. Any reason at all. Even Epic feats did not seem to be a convincing reason compared to 2 High Arcana.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek
02-09-04, 08:42 PM There is a reason why the Sorcerer doesn't gain as fast as the Wizard. The Wizard is more of a spellcaster than the Sorcerer. The Wizard completely focuses on spellcasting through books and mentors. The Sorcerer lets it happen, he explores himself. Can you explain how truly how the brain, or the heart works? You know it works, you know the reason, but do we know how it truly works? The Sorcerer knows what to do, but he can't flip through a book and look up how he works. That is the reason for slow progression. The way the Sorcerer casts, and how many spells he can cast per day is a big advantage. The way the Sorcerer is designed you have to be real careful what you add cause it can throw the balance way off.
Dipree Xarann
02-09-04, 09:06 PM I also find the sorcerer lacking; my solution for my campaign was to bump up the sorcerer's HD from d4 to d6 & add Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Use Magic Device as class skills. This fix and my other one for fighters seem to work just fine IMCs.
Geethree
02-09-04, 09:25 PM If the Wizard is the arcane spellcaster who stays in his study poring over old tomes and books, then the Sorcerer should be the more organic spellcaster who finds knowledge elsewhere. He explores the world, he explores the areas that Wizards cannot or do not want to explore. The Sorcerer does not have the privilege of having extensive libraries or major organizations. I think Dipree Xarann's little adjustment fits this just fine.

My fix was relatively simple: give them Eschew Materials at first level for free, take away the Familiar (don't think it fits with the Sorcerer concept), and give them a D6 hit die. Now, I think that by adding another class skill or two (Gather Information, Diplomacy), you have a perfectly viable core class. Arcane spellcasting is extremely powerful. There's no reason to give the sorcerer a whole lot of extra abilties in addition to this.

I don't think that the Sorcerer should be a Wizard variant, I think that both classes should reflect two different ways of playing an arcane spellcaster.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek
02-09-04, 09:32 PM Originally posted by Geethree
If the Wizard is the arcane spellcaster who stays in his study poring over old tomes and books, then the Sorcerer should be the more organic spellcaster who finds knowledge elsewhere. He explores the world, he explores the areas that Wizards cannot or do not want to explore. The Sorcerer does not have the privilege of having extensive libraries or major organizations. I think Dipree Xarann's little adjustment fits this just fine.

My fix was relatively simple: give them Eschew Materials at first level for free, take away the Familiar (don't think it fits with the Sorcerer concept), and give them a D6 hit die. Now, I think that by adding another class skill or two (Gather Information, Diplomacy), you have a perfectly viable core class. Arcane spellcasting is extremely powerful. There's no reason to give the sorcerer a whole lot of extra abilties in addition to this.

I don't think that the Sorcerer should be a Wizard variant, I think that both classes should reflect two different ways of playing an arcane spellcaster.

*nods*...Well said.
Glak
02-09-04, 09:54 PM At 6th level sorcerors can cast fireball a lot. He cannot be called weak. The sorceror is boring to play because he has a limited spell selection. So you should make him better at skills? Where is the logic in that? The sorceror is a boring class, I won't argue that. Thus any fix should address that issue. If a character wants to trade in some fireballs per day for skill points and a d6 hit die that is ok with me. However there is another name for that class: 2nd edition bard. The problem with the sorceror is that there isn't enough room for a second charismatic spontaneous caster. Maybe give the sorceror his own spell list, one with little overlap with the bard. Or change his stat to Int.
The Simbul
02-09-04, 10:22 PM The problems and weaknesses of the Sorcerer become grossly apparent with each non-core accessory rulebook that is released. Each of these volumes contains new and innovative Spells, new Metamagic and Item Creation feats, new Magic Items, and new PrCs. The problem of course is obvious, Wizards can infinitely add to their spell repertoire to compensate for the added character options in terms of spellcasting. Wizards gain an additional four bonus feats which mitigates the metagaming stretch of adding new Metamagic/Item Creation feats to the game. Because Wizards have potential access to nearly every spell on their list, they can easily take advantage of the new magic items since they are also far more likely to have all the prequisite spells necessary to craft them. Lasty there is the issue with PrC's. A grand total of two have been created that were cleary intended specifically for the Sorcerer: one involves age 17+ non-core rules (Exalted Arcanist), the other is an utterly worthless class (Dragon Disciple). However you would be hard pressed to find a shortage of Wizard oriented PrC's, you would also be hard pressed to find any spellcasting PrC's to whom a standard Sorcerer could naturally meet the prerequisites for. Each new accessory sourcebook hands a world of options and augmentations to the Wizard, while the Sorcerer is forced to squeeze the new "goods" into her 3-5 known spells per spell level, and her 7-8 non epic feat slots.

In a Core Rules setting, which uses only the PHB listed spells and the DMG listed Magic items, Sorcerers are on an even playing field with Wizards. When you add volumes of added sourcebook material to the campaign is when the gross inequity begins to materialize.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek
02-10-04, 07:04 AM So the problem are the PrC's and items then, and not the class is what you are saying?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-07-04, 01:11 PM	I have been reading a lot of the threads on trying to make the Sorcerer class better, and I have come to the conclusion that people are trying a little to hard and making the class way overpowered. They are creating a nice PrC or template, but not a core class. A core class is what gives you are basic abilities that you take and add feats or PrC to give it flavor. A lot of the threads are trying to cross a template and PrC with a core class. When you do this and then take an actual template and or PrC then you have completely thrown the balance out the door. The Sorcerer needs only minor cosmetic surgery. When you sit back and you look at the core classes, you can tell when you have overbalanced a class. Please tell me what you think? If some of you don't think that the creations are not overbalanced then please share with me why you think this and give some examples.
Mythgaard 02-07-04, 01:16 PM	I just think the Sorcerer is kind of half-assed...it needs something. Floating slots are nice and all, but , in my opinion, its just an oddball variant to playing a Wizard. It needs to be its own class, not a Wizard variant. :)
Raging Halfling 02-07-04, 04:16 PM	When you compare the sorcerer to every other class in the PHb, it has absolutely nothing. Over twenty levels, it gets one class feature that scales with level and that's it. He can cast a lot of spells and that's all he's got. He's not even that versatile; he has no class skills to speak of, and a very limited spell selection. Consider all the weaknesses the sorcerer has: poor Fort and Reflex saves, a d4 hit die, no armor, and poor spell selection makes item crafting difficult. Oh, and let's not forget that he gains new spell levels 1 level later than the other primary spellcasters. That really kills him at low levels. The wizard, on the other hand, gets a familiar also, the same saves and hit die. Okay, good so far. But the wizard gets 4 bonus feats, which can be either Craft or metamagic feats. In addition, he gets Scribe Scroll. The wizard's spell versatility largely cancels out the advantage the sorcerer has with more spell slots, especially if the wizard's player is not an idiot and takes Craft Wand. Already the wizard is as good as the sorcerer and we still have 3 more bonus feats to go. Beyond that, the wizard is based on Int and has a better skill list. He can take oodles of knowledge skills and has the ranks to put into them. What does the sorcerer get? He gets Bluff...after all our complaints, he got Bluff. Woo-hoo. In case somebody thinks the sorcerer's flexability with metamagic is a huge advantage, I'll preemptively reply. Sure, metamagic is fairly cool with the sorcerer. But you'll never get Quicken spell and you don't have enough feats to spend on metamagic anyway. I consider the ability to use Quicken spell way better than spontaneous metamagic over the long run. Don't get me wrong. I like the sorcerer, conceptually. But he got hit with a big Nerf(TM) beatstick. I do agree that some of the sorcerer classes seen on these boards are horrendously overpowered, though.
Ivellious 02-07-04, 07:43 PM	If you love the sorcerer class (spontaneous casting) like i do, but find the abilities somewhat lacking, buy Tomb & Blood and find a prestige class. Loooove elemental savage Me: I Fireball myself! DM: confused look ok ... make a save Me: doesn't roll No damage taken DM: more confused um ... you dont have imp. evasion, and you haven't rolled ... Me: You forgot we leveled up. I'm immune to all fire evil grin DM: sigh half the horde dies, and the other half, seing a suicidal sorcerer, me, runs
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-07-04, 08:56 PM	Originally posted by Raging Halfling When you compare the sorcerer to every other class in the PHb, it has absolutely nothing. Over twenty levels, it gets one class feature that scales with level and that's it. He can cast a lot of spells and that's all he's got. He's not even that versatile; he has no class skills to speak of, and a very limited spell selection. Consider all the weaknesses the sorcerer has: poor Fort and Reflex saves, a d4 hit die, no armor, and poor spell selection makes item crafting difficult. Oh, and let's not forget that he gains new spell levels 1 level later than the other primary spellcasters. That really kills him at low levels. The wizard, on the other hand, gets a familiar also, the same saves and hit die. Okay, good so far. But the wizard gets 4 bonus feats, which can be either Craft or metamagic feats. In addition, he gets Scribe Scroll. The wizard's spell versatility largely cancels out the advantage the sorcerer has with more spell slots, especially if the wizard's player is not an idiot and takes Craft Wand. Already the wizard is as good as the sorcerer and we still have 3 more bonus feats to go. Beyond that, the wizard is based on Int and has a better skill list. He can take oodles of knowledge skills and has the ranks to put into them. What does the sorcerer get? He gets Bluff...after all our complaints, he got Bluff. Woo-hoo. In case somebody thinks the sorcerer's flexability with metamagic is a huge advantage, I'll preemptively reply. Sure, metamagic is fairly cool with the sorcerer. But you'll never get Quicken spell and you don't have enough feats to spend on metamagic anyway. I consider the ability to use Quicken spell way better than spontaneous metamagic over the long run. Don't get me wrong. I like the sorcerer, conceptually. But he got hit with a big Nerf(TM) beatstick. I do agree that some of the sorcerer classes seen on these boards are horrendously overpowered, though. The thing is, the Sorcerer isn't meant to be the primary spellcaster. The Wizard is the standard spellcaster. The Sorcerer is more of a quick battle-mage. They don't usually create items and such, they leave that up to the Wizard. Not having to choose spells per day is a great ability for the Sorcerer, thats one reason they don't have as much as the Wizard. Yes they could use more feats, but the way the Sorcerer is designed you have to becareful what abilities you add cause it could make the class way off balance. And thats what PrC's are for, to give flavor to the characters. Thats why they were created.
Mutant for Hire 02-07-04, 09:22 PM	Sorcerors were invented so that there would be a spontaneous spell-casting race instead of a Vancian spellcasting race. They were added in with great reluctance and are badly designed, possibly on purpose to discourage everyone. As a result, there is great frustration with the Sorceror class as it stands, which is a class meant to be closer to spellcasters of most fantasy books today but falls way short. That's why people spend so much effort on it. It needs the most work and its an archetype close to people's hearts. Most people envisualize spellscasters as closer to the spell points and lists of spells known type of spellcasters than Vancian types anyway.
BlaineTog 02-07-04, 09:40 PM	Xun, A core class is what gives you are basic abilities that you take and add feats or PrC to give it flavor. Yes, but this only works if the class actually has any abilities to speak of. The sorcerer gets a familar (which isn't even all that good, for the most part) and nothing else. And, even though a core class should be vague, it should also be feasible to take 20 full levels in it. You can't so that with the sorcerer and maintain a playable amount of power. To the rest of you, This thread is a train wreck waiting to happen. The sorcerer is a hot-button issue, esspecially when soemone starts questioning it. Tread carefully.
Votan 02-08-04, 01:01 AM	Originally posted by XunValDorl of HouseKilsek I have been reading a lot of the threads on trying to make the Sorcerer class better, and I have come to the conclusion that people are trying a little to hard and making the class way overpowered. They are creating a nice PrC or template, but not a core class. A core class is what gives you are basic abilities that you take and add feats or PrC to give it flavor. A lot of the threads are trying to cross a template and PrC with a core class. When you do this and then take an actual template and or PrC then you have completely thrown the balance out the door. The Sorcerer needs only minor cosmetic surgery. When you sit back and you look at the core classes, you can tell when you have overbalanced a class. Please tell me what you think? If some of you don't think that the creations are not overbalanced then please share with me why you think this and give some examples. The hard point with the Sorcerer is that people want to give it flavor and high level abilities to make people stick with the class for 20 levels. The Sorcerer has no abilities that scale with level (except the familiar) except spell casting (which tends to be preserved in a prestige class). I prefer playing a Sorcerer to a Wizard. I think that balancing the Sorcerer should have been done more like the Druid was balanced with the Cleric. For example, you could give the Sorcerer the same spell progression as the wizard (in terms of number of spells per day) and remove the one level delay on higher level spells. This would make the class much closer. If a cleric does not care about turn undead they have the same problems. No high level abilites except spells which PrCs often completely preserve. A simpler solution would be to outlaw PrCs granting +1 caster level at level 1. Learning the rules for the new PrC costing a level of casting would reduce the desirability while still making them viable. Eldritch Knight uses this to great effect and it would make multiple dips into PrCs a harder choice for a primary caster. The Druid is well balanced this way. There is a good rerason to be a Druid until 20th level because of wildshape improvement. The wizard gets a few metamagic feats. Not a massive sacrifice to go Loremaster or Archmage. The cleric gets improved turn undead. Useful vs. one type of opponent. Golly gee whiz. Hospitaller is so much better than this . . . The sorcerer has the same basic issue. The one level delay on spells is annoying and makes a low level sorcerer weak. Fixing this would be easier than rebuilding the class. The big problem is adding more than 2-3 feats to this class is unbalancing. Sorcerers at high levels are already very powerful. Adding "capstone" abilities to this is a dangerous task. For example, one could make a Sorcerer deadly by adding a level 20 ability that lets them quicken spells spontaneously (quicken spontaneous spell, free feat). Giving this up, even for High Arcana would be a miserably hard choice. However, the sorcerer at 20th level is now much, much better than the wizard. Adding a free metamagic feat at 20th gives no reason to avoid Archmage. I once asked if there was any reason that an 18th level sorcerer would not take 2 levels in Archmage. Any reason at all. Even Epic feats did not seem to be a convincing reason compared to 2 High Arcana.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-09-04, 08:42 PM	There is a reason why the Sorcerer doesn't gain as fast as the Wizard. The Wizard is more of a spellcaster than the Sorcerer. The Wizard completely focuses on spellcasting through books and mentors. The Sorcerer lets it happen, he explores himself. Can you explain how truly how the brain, or the heart works? You know it works, you know the reason, but do we know how it truly works? The Sorcerer knows what to do, but he can't flip through a book and look up how he works. That is the reason for slow progression. The way the Sorcerer casts, and how many spells he can cast per day is a big advantage. The way the Sorcerer is designed you have to be real careful what you add cause it can throw the balance way off.
Dipree Xarann 02-09-04, 09:06 PM	I also find the sorcerer lacking; my solution for my campaign was to bump up the sorcerer's HD from d4 to d6 & add Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Use Magic Device as class skills. This fix and my other one for fighters seem to work just fine IMCs.
Geethree 02-09-04, 09:25 PM	If the Wizard is the arcane spellcaster who stays in his study poring over old tomes and books, then the Sorcerer should be the more organic spellcaster who finds knowledge elsewhere. He explores the world, he explores the areas that Wizards cannot or do not want to explore. The Sorcerer does not have the privilege of having extensive libraries or major organizations. I think Dipree Xarann's little adjustment fits this just fine. My fix was relatively simple: give them Eschew Materials at first level for free, take away the Familiar (don't think it fits with the Sorcerer concept), and give them a D6 hit die. Now, I think that by adding another class skill or two (Gather Information, Diplomacy), you have a perfectly viable core class. Arcane spellcasting is extremely powerful. There's no reason to give the sorcerer a whole lot of extra abilties in addition to this. I don't think that the Sorcerer should be a Wizard variant, I think that both classes should reflect two different ways of playing an arcane spellcaster.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-09-04, 09:32 PM	Originally posted by Geethree If the Wizard is the arcane spellcaster who stays in his study poring over old tomes and books, then the Sorcerer should be the more organic spellcaster who finds knowledge elsewhere. He explores the world, he explores the areas that Wizards cannot or do not want to explore. The Sorcerer does not have the privilege of having extensive libraries or major organizations. I think Dipree Xarann's little adjustment fits this just fine. My fix was relatively simple: give them Eschew Materials at first level for free, take away the Familiar (don't think it fits with the Sorcerer concept), and give them a D6 hit die. Now, I think that by adding another class skill or two (Gather Information, Diplomacy), you have a perfectly viable core class. Arcane spellcasting is extremely powerful. There's no reason to give the sorcerer a whole lot of extra abilties in addition to this. I don't think that the Sorcerer should be a Wizard variant, I think that both classes should reflect two different ways of playing an arcane spellcaster. nods...Well said.
Glak 02-09-04, 09:54 PM	At 6th level sorcerors can cast fireball a lot. He cannot be called weak. The sorceror is boring to play because he has a limited spell selection. So you should make him better at skills? Where is the logic in that? The sorceror is a boring class, I won't argue that. Thus any fix should address that issue. If a character wants to trade in some fireballs per day for skill points and a d6 hit die that is ok with me. However there is another name for that class: 2nd edition bard. The problem with the sorceror is that there isn't enough room for a second charismatic spontaneous caster. Maybe give the sorceror his own spell list, one with little overlap with the bard. Or change his stat to Int.
The Simbul 02-09-04, 10:22 PM	The problems and weaknesses of the Sorcerer become grossly apparent with each non-core accessory rulebook that is released. Each of these volumes contains new and innovative Spells, new Metamagic and Item Creation feats, new Magic Items, and new PrCs. The problem of course is obvious, Wizards can infinitely add to their spell repertoire to compensate for the added character options in terms of spellcasting. Wizards gain an additional four bonus feats which mitigates the metagaming stretch of adding new Metamagic/Item Creation feats to the game. Because Wizards have potential access to nearly every spell on their list, they can easily take advantage of the new magic items since they are also far more likely to have all the prequisite spells necessary to craft them. Lasty there is the issue with PrC's. A grand total of two have been created that were cleary intended specifically for the Sorcerer: one involves age 17+ non-core rules (Exalted Arcanist), the other is an utterly worthless class (Dragon Disciple). However you would be hard pressed to find a shortage of Wizard oriented PrC's, you would also be hard pressed to find any spellcasting PrC's to whom a standard Sorcerer could naturally meet the prerequisites for. Each new accessory sourcebook hands a world of options and augmentations to the Wizard, while the Sorcerer is forced to squeeze the new "goods" into her 3-5 known spells per spell level, and her 7-8 non epic feat slots. In a Core Rules setting, which uses only the PHB listed spells and the DMG listed Magic items, Sorcerers are on an even playing field with Wizards. When you add volumes of added sourcebook material to the campaign is when the gross inequity begins to materialize.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-10-04, 07:04 AM	So the problem are the PrC's and items then, and not the class is what you are saying?