Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Copper_Coins 01-04-06, 10:49 PM	Rogues are generally seen to be the sneaky type, the people who sneak up ahead of the party to pick a lock, or uncover a trap. But, are they necessarily sneaky? I mean, Rogues are theives, and a lot of theives aren't the quiet types. So, is there some sort of rogue variant? A type of rogue that is Thug-Like. If you check the MM, a Bugbears favoured class is Rogue, I'd imagine this is the type of Rogue bugbears tend to be. I've lost my PhB for now, and I have never really looked at the pages on rogues, so is there some sort of rule/variant that applies to the Thug-Like Rogue? Thanks in advance for the feedback.
Nephlite 01-04-06, 11:00 PM	Rogues are generally seen to be the sneaky type, the people who sneak up ahead of the party to pick a lock, or uncover a trap. But, are they necessarily sneaky? I mean, Rogues are theives, and a lot of theives aren't the quiet types. So, is there some sort of rogue variant? A type of rogue that is Thug-Like. If you check the MM, a Bugbears favoured class is Rogue, I'd imagine this is the type of Rogue bugbears tend to be. I've lost my PhB for now, and I have never really looked at the pages on rogues, so is there some sort of rule/variant that applies to the Thug-Like Rogue? Thanks in advance for the feedback. Bugbears favor Ambushes=Sneak attack. Now what do you mean by Sneaky? Good hide/move silently? Scout ahead to pick lock and find traps? No sneak involved just scouting (spot/listen). You could pick a Rogue without sneaky skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex). These are the skills left after removing hide/move silently. Opening a lock isn't sneaky: without magic/sundering locks are pretty sturdy. You need a way to open that door/chest to get item. Is disguise sneaky? Escape Arrtist is good for escaping ropes/grapples neither are sneaky required. I haven't heard of a thuf variant to answer your question. :D
Elemental_Elf 01-04-06, 11:20 PM	With a gurenteed 8 Skills points per level, Rogues can be what ever the heck you want them to be! ^_^
Finfreeze 01-04-06, 11:21 PM	You could try the variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) that replaces the rogue's sneak attack with the fighter's bonus feat progression. You could also try the thug fighter variant. If I were to do the former, however, I'd exchange 2+ skill points to get a d8+ HD so I won't feel so fragile...maybe also move the good save to Fortitude and let Evasion and Slippery Mind smooth things oout.
Spiffman 01-04-06, 11:33 PM	No, Rogues are not neccicarilly sneaky, but this often is the case. The Skills of a Rogue is slightly bent toward stealth yes, hide and move silently along with a few others certainly give the apperance of a stealth only class, but a thug variant of a Rogue is quite possible. When Creating a Rogue/Thug, you want to focus on the sneak attack. This ability is the bread and butter of the thug, as his only job it to solve a problem with the, well, most Thugish overtone. Keep in mind that when a Rogue is Flanking he gains Sneak attack, so always, always , flank with a fighter, or better yet, another Rogue. Two Rogues flanking can tear most lightly armored classes to itty bitty bloody shreds, and can also do so to most monsters with a good relibility. The Main weakness of this is the inibility to wear to much armor, along with the low HD. However as long as you keep the sneak attak in mind, and focus on skills like bluff and intimidate you have a pretty sturdy character So no, Rogues do not have to be sneaky However, undead will be your most hated enemy, with abberations followiing at a close second
scienceman47 01-05-06, 05:54 AM	The unearthed arcana has a variant for what you are looking for. And I am not the person above me, though they may have good taste in avatar.
Millennium 01-05-06, 06:54 AM	I've lost my PhB for now, and I have never really looked at the pages on rogues, so is there some sort of rule/variant that applies to the Thug-Like Rogue? Wouldn't a straight-up fighter work for a thuggish "rogue"? The skill sets and class features seem to match better with that type.
JadeSpider9643 01-05-06, 07:02 AM	rogues by default are not sneaky, but it is much easier and desireable for a rogue to be sneaky than for most other classes. a heavily armored class like most fighters or clerics suffers from a large armor check penalty and has trouble actually BEING sneaky when desired, not to mention the shortage of skill points. While a high Int wizard with no armor check penalty could easily be more sneaky than a rogue if they desired, they seldom do so desire, and even then they typically bypass the standard methods of sneakiness and just cast invisibilty and fly. So just to repeat: Rogues are not, by default, sneaky. They just have the greatest potential to become sneaky.
Crichton 01-05-06, 07:11 AM	So just to repeat: Rogues are not, by default, sneaky. They just have the greatest potential to become sneaky.The Scout and the Ranger (just to name a few) are all sneakier then the Rogue. All that the Rogue gets is his skills for stealth, absolutly no class ability related to stealth at all. The Scout and Ranger get Camoflauge and the Ranger gets Hide in Plain Sight. I've thought to myself for quite sometime that the Rogue is not a well developed class, absolutly no stealth class ability to speak of. With all three of the classes I mentioned having Hide and Move Silently as class skills, with equal DEX, the Rogue would be the least sneaky of all of them.
Jodjod 01-05-06, 07:21 AM	Want a thug? Go for a few levels of fighter supplemeneted with roughly half as many in rogue. Sorted.
Loopy 01-05-06, 07:24 AM	I play a Rogue with 6 Dex in my friend's Eberron campaign. Between his knowledge, his charisma-based skills, and the fact that he's flank/sneak-attacking with a greatsword really lends to his abilities in the party without being stealthy at all. He's great.
NightScreamer20 01-05-06, 07:45 AM	Are you willing to use Homebrew? This is an idea I came up with for a Rogue in my Campaign Setting (well a Variant). Removed Trapfinding and Trapsense Moved Uncanny Dodge to 6th level and Improved Uncanny Dodge to 10th Granted him Combat Inuition @ 4th level. Int bonus to AC as Insight, maximum bonus equal to 1/2 your Character level.
Rulebook 01-05-06, 11:22 AM	Pffft. I used to run a rogue i nicknamed "Sucker Punch" for his ability to INA punch somebody flat-footed for sneak attack damage. this was usually done during a heated arguement that he started, for the expressed purpose of sucker punching the poor fool. then he'd shout out (while the guy was unconcious) "I'M TAKING HIS WALLET." im not sure, but thats about as un-subtle as you can get, without actually taking extreme measures. also, half-orcs make nice thug types (and there are numerous thug and street-fighter [not hadoukens] type PrC's out there that fit the bill nicely)
allenchan 01-05-06, 11:27 AM	A) Multiclass. B) Dont put ranks into hide/move silently. No need for variants for something this simple, imo.
Jerks 01-05-06, 11:31 AM	this was usually done during a heated arguement that he started, for the expressed purpose of sucker punching the poor fool. then he'd shout out (while the guy was unconcious) "I'M TAKING HIS WALLET." im not sure, but thats about as un-subtle as you can get, Priceless :P
Lady Maedhros 01-05-06, 04:07 PM	Hmn. Half-orc. Couple levels of barbarian, the rest rogue. Ranks in things like Intimidate and Knowledge (local). Dex in the 8-12 range, Str and Con as high as you can get 'em. Depending on whether you seek to be a "boss" thug or a "muscle" thug, take a look at Cha. A "boss" thug should be memorable and eye-catching for his size, an unforgettable terror. If you just want to be a brutish minion that's a good dump stat. For weapons, drop the rapier and daggers. Carry a nice, big club or wear brass knuckles or an iron gauntlet. Your barb levels give you a wider selection if you want to go exotic with a wicked hooked axe or something. For this character, think of "sneak attack" instead as "dirty fighting". You're not slipping a dagger between the joints of his armor, you're not that clever or artful. You're kicking him in the kneecap, punching him in the spine when his back is turned and whacking him in the ear at every opportunity. When you can't flank or feint you've got raw Rage to still sink a little extra damage, and you've got those d12s and extra Con to make your piddly rogue hitpoints go a little further in 1-on-1. In any multiclass situation involving rogues, however, it's good to remember, your first level should be rogue. What's worth more, six hitpoints or twenty-four skill points?
StevenO 01-05-06, 07:27 PM	There is a Thug varient (for the fighter class I believe) in the Unearthed Arcana. There is no reason that a rogue needs to be sneaky. You can put those skill points into interaction skills to become a con or a fence. Sneak Attack dice still work when wearing full plate (although some class abilities can't be used in such armor) so don't be afraid of adding some fighter to the rogue.