Are rogues viable at higher levels? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are rogues viable at higher levels? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Count_Rugen
05-21-06, 08:14 AM Are rogues viable at higher levels? Now I'm not talking about the bizaare-mish-mash-of-multiple-classes "rogues". Just single-classed rogues. If they are viable at higher levels, what is their function in a group?
stealth_monkey
05-21-06, 08:34 AM Same as at low levels. Trap finding, skill monkey, backstabber. Rogues are one of the more constant classes imo, they tend to remain useful as your party grows. Sure, some classes gain abilities that will do in a pinch without a rogue. But when basic hall traps start casting meteor swarm at you, you really want someone who can disarm it the first time round
Maraxus
05-21-06, 09:11 AM Well, most magic traps can be found with detect magic and nullified with an Anitimagic field.

But full attacks (preferably 2-Weapon-wielding) with really high sneak attacks is definitly great.
Sunrider
05-21-06, 09:34 AM Rogues are definitely viable at higher levels, but their function (and power) depends totally on the campaign, and your definition of 'group'.

In a dungeon-crawling, monster-slaying campaign, they certainly lose power and function, as high-level spellcasters take over many of the roles the rogue played at lower levels.

In a more 'epic' style campaign, with lots of political intrigue, infiltration/sabotage/espionage/assassination missions, though, the rogue probably gains power relative to the rest of the party, due to the fact that skill points count for more and more (relative to stat bonuses) and the discrepancy in skill ranks between the haves and have-nots grows wider and wider as the game goes on.

If the party is willing to split up, a high-level rogue can wreak even more havoc - despite what the PHB says, rogues work best alone, or with other rogues. This is due to the fact that their approach to problems is so different to that of the rest of the party - whereas this can be a problem in a dungeon-crawl with other classes, high-level rogues can positively shine when other, less stealth/sneaky classes aren't around as a liability. Behind enemy lines, a solo, high-level rogue (or a small commando team) can devastate an enemy organisation, conducting sabotage, organising resistance, spying, assassinating key figures, misdirecting enemy forces with false orders and being a general nuisance. For an enemy, the threat of high-level rogues forces the use of extra layers of defence - whereas large armies, powerful war machines and a number of friendly dragons may stop most conventional forces, it takes an entire counterintelligence network to limit the threat posed by rogues. Naturally, this isn't cheap to run...

Finally, in a solo campaign, the rogue does extremely well at high levels. With a mixture of stealth skills, social skills, movement skills and other class abilities, a savvy player can accomplish almost anything - usually not directly, but rather in an indirect fashion. Unlike most other classes, the rogue is a class for lateral thinkers - whereas a fighter's or caster's solution to a problem will often be to chop/blast/nuke/SoD through it, a rogue will usually approach it in a more roundabout fashion, using stealth, subterfuge, disguise and diplomacy/lies, as well as hirelings, minions and allies, and every other resource at her disposal (cold hard currency being a very valuable one), to get the job done. In solo campaigns, where resurrection is rare and safety paramount, the rogue's non-combat (at least no combat for the rogue herself) approach is usually safer than the others.
Esponer
05-21-06, 09:51 AM At sufficiently high levels (usually into epic, thankfully), rogues become obsolete. About a dozen levels before complete breakdown of balance at epic levels, you tend to see something of a race towards harbouring as many immunities as possible, and immunity to critical hits and sneak attacks are one of the first to come along. Too often, epic monsters harbour such immunities, and virtually all PCs will start their own immunity collection. Trapfinding becomes something that your cohort, or followers, or spells, can handle, and so rogues eventually become a little pointless.

This phenomenon doesn't tend to occur in non-epic levels, so rogues remain completely viable in almost all play.
Talen Lee
05-21-06, 10:29 AM Absolute hits all the way. The Rogue is one of the few noncaster classes that doesn't become totally redundant by level 16 or so. And again - two weapon fighting is really saucy stuff.

If you can blur in 4 levels of Fighter, Ranger, or the like, so you get a +16 BAB, it's even better.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Count_Rugen 05-21-06, 08:14 AM	Are rogues viable at higher levels? Now I'm not talking about the bizaare-mish-mash-of-multiple-classes "rogues". Just single-classed rogues. If they are viable at higher levels, what is their function in a group?
stealth_monkey 05-21-06, 08:34 AM	Same as at low levels. Trap finding, skill monkey, backstabber. Rogues are one of the more constant classes imo, they tend to remain useful as your party grows. Sure, some classes gain abilities that will do in a pinch without a rogue. But when basic hall traps start casting meteor swarm at you, you really want someone who can disarm it the first time round
Maraxus 05-21-06, 09:11 AM	Well, most magic traps can be found with detect magic and nullified with an Anitimagic field. But full attacks (preferably 2-Weapon-wielding) with really high sneak attacks is definitly great.
Sunrider 05-21-06, 09:34 AM	Rogues are definitely viable at higher levels, but their function (and power) depends totally on the campaign, and your definition of 'group'. In a dungeon-crawling, monster-slaying campaign, they certainly lose power and function, as high-level spellcasters take over many of the roles the rogue played at lower levels. In a more 'epic' style campaign, with lots of political intrigue, infiltration/sabotage/espionage/assassination missions, though, the rogue probably gains power relative to the rest of the party, due to the fact that skill points count for more and more (relative to stat bonuses) and the discrepancy in skill ranks between the haves and have-nots grows wider and wider as the game goes on. If the party is willing to split up, a high-level rogue can wreak even more havoc - despite what the PHB says, rogues work best alone, or with other rogues. This is due to the fact that their approach to problems is so different to that of the rest of the party - whereas this can be a problem in a dungeon-crawl with other classes, high-level rogues can positively shine when other, less stealth/sneaky classes aren't around as a liability. Behind enemy lines, a solo, high-level rogue (or a small commando team) can devastate an enemy organisation, conducting sabotage, organising resistance, spying, assassinating key figures, misdirecting enemy forces with false orders and being a general nuisance. For an enemy, the threat of high-level rogues forces the use of extra layers of defence - whereas large armies, powerful war machines and a number of friendly dragons may stop most conventional forces, it takes an entire counterintelligence network to limit the threat posed by rogues. Naturally, this isn't cheap to run... Finally, in a solo campaign, the rogue does extremely well at high levels. With a mixture of stealth skills, social skills, movement skills and other class abilities, a savvy player can accomplish almost anything - usually not directly, but rather in an indirect fashion. Unlike most other classes, the rogue is a class for lateral thinkers - whereas a fighter's or caster's solution to a problem will often be to chop/blast/nuke/SoD through it, a rogue will usually approach it in a more roundabout fashion, using stealth, subterfuge, disguise and diplomacy/lies, as well as hirelings, minions and allies, and every other resource at her disposal (cold hard currency being a very valuable one), to get the job done. In solo campaigns, where resurrection is rare and safety paramount, the rogue's non-combat (at least no combat for the rogue herself) approach is usually safer than the others.
Esponer 05-21-06, 09:51 AM	At sufficiently high levels (usually into epic, thankfully), rogues become obsolete. About a dozen levels before complete breakdown of balance at epic levels, you tend to see something of a race towards harbouring as many immunities as possible, and immunity to critical hits and sneak attacks are one of the first to come along. Too often, epic monsters harbour such immunities, and virtually all PCs will start their own immunity collection. Trapfinding becomes something that your cohort, or followers, or spells, can handle, and so rogues eventually become a little pointless. This phenomenon doesn't tend to occur in non-epic levels, so rogues remain completely viable in almost all play.
Talen Lee 05-21-06, 10:29 AM	Absolute hits all the way. The Rogue is one of the few noncaster classes that doesn't become totally redundant by level 16 or so. And again - two weapon fighting is really saucy stuff. If you can blur in 4 levels of Fighter, Ranger, or the like, so you get a +16 BAB, it's even better.