Are Swashbucklers Rogues? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are Swashbucklers Rogues? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Trakx
12-08-05, 03:38 PM As a DM, would you concider Swashbucklers to be similiar to Rogues? I ask because I have a feat, Ascetic Rogue, that has my Rogue levels stack with Monk levels to determine my unarmed strike - I would like to take some levels of Swashbuckler, because the character concept is more Swashbucklerish, but not at the detriment of my Ascetic Rogue feat/unarmed strike damage.

I'm sure my post could be summed up as a DM's call, but I'm asking here before I ask my DM.

Thanks in advance!
Thorak
12-08-05, 03:49 PM This is like asking "are sorcerors druids?" There's very little similarity between the two classes, save they they tend to be dextrous and smart.
Mac Awol
12-08-05, 03:56 PM I wouldn't consider the swashbuckler a rogue. (a roguish class, yes)

As a DM would couldn't convince me that Ascetic Rogue would allow you to multiclass between swashbuckler and monk.
But I would allow you to take the Monastic Training feat from the Eberron setting, which allows you to pick one class, which your monk can freely multiclass with. (the feat may be take in exchange of one of the usual monk feats)
Trakx
12-08-05, 04:00 PM Swashbucklers, from Complete Warrior, came out after the three core books. The one who wrote the text to Ascetic Rogue didn't feel it appropriate to say, "Rogues, Sorcerers, Swashbucklers, and..." "...but not Fighters, Paladins...". It makes more sense to only include a class from the core books.

The additional base classes, like Hexblade, Ninja, Samuri, Spellthief, etc. are similiar to many core classes - such as the Ninja is similiar to a Rogue and a Monk (my opinion).

So, I was asking if you (anyone) thought the Swashbuckler was similiar to the Rogue, and if so, would you personally make a DM call to count Swashbucklers as Rogues.
Trakx
12-08-05, 04:05 PM I wouldn't consider the swashbuckler a rogue. (a roguish class, yes)

As a DM would couldn't convince me that Ascetic Rogue would allow you to multiclass between swashbuckler and monk.
But I would allow you to take the Monastic Training feat from the Eberron setting, which allows you to pick one class, which your monk can freely multiclass with. (the feat may be take in exchange of one of the usual monk feats)

But I'm one upping that: I'm not asking to switch between Monk and Swashbuckler (because I only want the one level of Monk), I'm wanting to have Swashbuckler to be concidered a Rogue for purposes of a feat that lets my Monk and Rogue levels stack. Although Ascetic Rogue let's you switch between Rogue and Monk, I'm never going to (partly because my alignment has changed since taking Monk), so I don't care if they extend the list to Swashbucklers or not.
Shirosai
12-08-05, 04:33 PM So it's a matter of powergaming then? XD

You could try and ask your DM, but I would say that the swashbuckler is not a rogue and thus is not considered a rogue for purpose of... well, anything.
johnkretzer
12-08-05, 04:46 PM I woulsd also have to say no due to feat prerequistes and benefits. Prerequisites are as follows Improved Unarmed Srike and SNEAK ATTACK . Since swashbucklers don't get it they don't count as rougue for this feat. Also the benefit of +2 save DC for to stunning atacks while sneak attacking clearly means this feat is meant for those with sneak attack.
Arcane Guyver
12-08-05, 05:17 PM This brings up a good question....at first I would have said "sure," since you're only getting half the benefit of the feat (multiclassing and unarmed strike damage).

But then again, that'd negate the need for the Monastic Training feat, which soley lets you multiclass the monk and another class.

Is Monastic Training underpowered, or are the Ascetic feats overpowered?
farfairer
12-08-05, 05:18 PM I also would not allow it.

Perhaps you (or your DM) could come up with a second feat that allows for Monk/Swashbucklers.
Esponer
12-08-05, 05:23 PM If you're concerned with optimising, then for your purposes a Swashbuckler is most definitely not a Rogue, and the feats don't apply. Similarities in ethos isn't enough to make a feat that only applies to Rogues apply to other classes. As just pointed out, a swashbuckler couldn't even meet a differently flavoured version of the requirements (you'd have more luck claiming synergy with a ninja, which at least has something vaguely similar to sneak attack).

If you're more concerned with roleplaying, then a swashbuckler could have a rogue-ish nature. If you're otherwise not optimising, as a DM I may consider letting you use the feat for swashbuckler levels if I felt that I was mitigating a mix of classes that was disadvantaged and was being chosen for flavour reasons. I'm unsure as to whether this is an "and" or an "or" - it would definitely require a very lenient house rule to make up for a disadvantaged build, say, to let Ascetic Rogue count for rogues, swashbucklers and monks. If you just want Ascetic Swashbuckler, then that needs house ruling, but is perfectly acceptable. It's never going to be by the RAW though.
farfairer
12-08-05, 05:55 PM This brings up a good question....at first I would have said "sure," since you're only getting half the benefit of the feat (multiclassing and unarmed strike damage).

But then again, that'd negate the need for the Monastic Training feat, which soley lets you multiclass the monk and another class.

Is Monastic Training underpowered, or are the Ascetic feats overpowered?

First off Monastic Training is an Eberron feat and therefor not allowed by many GMs (including myself and all the people I game with) in games outside of Eberron.

Second while more powerful the Ascetic feats are souly two class combinations: Monk/ Rogue, Monk/ Ranger, Monk/ Sorcerer, and Monk/ Paladin, and in that respect they are more limited. They also have prerequisits that mean you can't take them befor level 3, and so limit how you are going to divide up your first few class levels.

And actually I had a character who was forced to take both feats. As soon as my character took 1 level of Heir of Syberys, I had to take Monastic Traing or be barred from returning to Monk.
Arcane Guyver
12-15-05, 06:17 PM First off Monastic Training is an Eberron feat and therefore not allowed by many GMs (including myself and all the people I game with) in games outside of Eberron.
Hate to dredge topics up like this, but I had to point out that the feat was reprinted in the Monk Class Acts column in one of the recent issues of Dragon. It's really about as Eberron-specific as Greater Powerful Charge...

I don't have Complete Adventurer on hand to see prerequisites for myself, but IIRC you need to be multiclass before taking the feat that makes it ok to be multiclass...now that I think about it, kinda wierd.
Trakx
12-15-05, 06:27 PM Hate to dredge topics up like this, but I had to point out that the feat was reprinted in the Monk Class Acts column in one of the recent issues of Dragon. It's really about as Eberron-specific as Greater Powerful Charge...

I don't have Complete Adventurer on hand to see prerequisites for myself, but IIRC you need to be multiclass before taking the feat that makes it ok to be multiclass...now that I think about it, kinda wierd.

I was about to say that it would just mean that you can't continue in one of the two classes, but you're right: core rules would have you taking experience penalties.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Trakx 12-08-05, 03:38 PM	As a DM, would you concider Swashbucklers to be similiar to Rogues? I ask because I have a feat, Ascetic Rogue, that has my Rogue levels stack with Monk levels to determine my unarmed strike - I would like to take some levels of Swashbuckler, because the character concept is more Swashbucklerish, but not at the detriment of my Ascetic Rogue feat/unarmed strike damage. I'm sure my post could be summed up as a DM's call, but I'm asking here before I ask my DM. Thanks in advance!
Thorak 12-08-05, 03:49 PM	This is like asking "are sorcerors druids?" There's very little similarity between the two classes, save they they tend to be dextrous and smart.
Mac Awol 12-08-05, 03:56 PM	I wouldn't consider the swashbuckler a rogue. (a roguish class, yes) As a DM would couldn't convince me that Ascetic Rogue would allow you to multiclass between swashbuckler and monk. But I would allow you to take the Monastic Training feat from the Eberron setting, which allows you to pick one class, which your monk can freely multiclass with. (the feat may be take in exchange of one of the usual monk feats)
Trakx 12-08-05, 04:00 PM	Swashbucklers, from Complete Warrior, came out after the three core books. The one who wrote the text to Ascetic Rogue didn't feel it appropriate to say, "Rogues, Sorcerers, Swashbucklers, and..." "...but not Fighters, Paladins...". It makes more sense to only include a class from the core books. The additional base classes, like Hexblade, Ninja, Samuri, Spellthief, etc. are similiar to many core classes - such as the Ninja is similiar to a Rogue and a Monk (my opinion). So, I was asking if you (anyone) thought the Swashbuckler was similiar to the Rogue, and if so, would you personally make a DM call to count Swashbucklers as Rogues.
Trakx 12-08-05, 04:05 PM	I wouldn't consider the swashbuckler a rogue. (a roguish class, yes) As a DM would couldn't convince me that Ascetic Rogue would allow you to multiclass between swashbuckler and monk. But I would allow you to take the Monastic Training feat from the Eberron setting, which allows you to pick one class, which your monk can freely multiclass with. (the feat may be take in exchange of one of the usual monk feats) But I'm one upping that: I'm not asking to switch between Monk and Swashbuckler (because I only want the one level of Monk), I'm wanting to have Swashbuckler to be concidered a Rogue for purposes of a feat that lets my Monk and Rogue levels stack. Although Ascetic Rogue let's you switch between Rogue and Monk, I'm never going to (partly because my alignment has changed since taking Monk), so I don't care if they extend the list to Swashbucklers or not.
Shirosai 12-08-05, 04:33 PM	So it's a matter of powergaming then? XD You could try and ask your DM, but I would say that the swashbuckler is not a rogue and thus is not considered a rogue for purpose of... well, anything.
johnkretzer 12-08-05, 04:46 PM	I woulsd also have to say no due to feat prerequistes and benefits. Prerequisites are as follows Improved Unarmed Srike and SNEAK ATTACK . Since swashbucklers don't get it they don't count as rougue for this feat. Also the benefit of +2 save DC for to stunning atacks while sneak attacking clearly means this feat is meant for those with sneak attack.
Arcane Guyver 12-08-05, 05:17 PM	This brings up a good question....at first I would have said "sure," since you're only getting half the benefit of the feat (multiclassing and unarmed strike damage). But then again, that'd negate the need for the Monastic Training feat, which soley lets you multiclass the monk and another class. Is Monastic Training underpowered, or are the Ascetic feats overpowered?
farfairer 12-08-05, 05:18 PM	I also would not allow it. Perhaps you (or your DM) could come up with a second feat that allows for Monk/Swashbucklers.
Esponer 12-08-05, 05:23 PM	If you're concerned with optimising, then for your purposes a Swashbuckler is most definitely not a Rogue, and the feats don't apply. Similarities in ethos isn't enough to make a feat that only applies to Rogues apply to other classes. As just pointed out, a swashbuckler couldn't even meet a differently flavoured version of the requirements (you'd have more luck claiming synergy with a ninja, which at least has something vaguely similar to sneak attack). If you're more concerned with roleplaying, then a swashbuckler could have a rogue-ish nature. If you're otherwise not optimising, as a DM I may consider letting you use the feat for swashbuckler levels if I felt that I was mitigating a mix of classes that was disadvantaged and was being chosen for flavour reasons. I'm unsure as to whether this is an "and" or an "or" - it would definitely require a very lenient house rule to make up for a disadvantaged build, say, to let Ascetic Rogue count for rogues, swashbucklers and monks. If you just want Ascetic Swashbuckler, then that needs house ruling, but is perfectly acceptable. It's never going to be by the RAW though.
farfairer 12-08-05, 05:55 PM	This brings up a good question....at first I would have said "sure," since you're only getting half the benefit of the feat (multiclassing and unarmed strike damage). But then again, that'd negate the need for the Monastic Training feat, which soley lets you multiclass the monk and another class. Is Monastic Training underpowered, or are the Ascetic feats overpowered? First off Monastic Training is an Eberron feat and therefor not allowed by many GMs (including myself and all the people I game with) in games outside of Eberron. Second while more powerful the Ascetic feats are souly two class combinations: Monk/ Rogue, Monk/ Ranger, Monk/ Sorcerer, and Monk/ Paladin, and in that respect they are more limited. They also have prerequisits that mean you can't take them befor level 3, and so limit how you are going to divide up your first few class levels. And actually I had a character who was forced to take both feats. As soon as my character took 1 level of Heir of Syberys, I had to take Monastic Traing or be barred from returning to Monk.
Arcane Guyver 12-15-05, 06:17 PM	First off Monastic Training is an Eberron feat and therefore not allowed by many GMs (including myself and all the people I game with) in games outside of Eberron. Hate to dredge topics up like this, but I had to point out that the feat was reprinted in the Monk Class Acts column in one of the recent issues of Dragon. It's really about as Eberron-specific as Greater Powerful Charge... I don't have Complete Adventurer on hand to see prerequisites for myself, but IIRC you need to be multiclass before taking the feat that makes it ok to be multiclass...now that I think about it, kinda wierd.
Trakx 12-15-05, 06:27 PM	Hate to dredge topics up like this, but I had to point out that the feat was reprinted in the Monk Class Acts column in one of the recent issues of Dragon. It's really about as Eberron-specific as Greater Powerful Charge... I don't have Complete Adventurer on hand to see prerequisites for myself, but IIRC you need to be multiclass before taking the feat that makes it ok to be multiclass...now that I think about it, kinda wierd. I was about to say that it would just mean that you can't continue in one of the two classes, but you're right: core rules would have you taking experience penalties.