Post/Author/DateTime	Post
crowclub 02-04-07, 03:49 PM	thats the question?
mittenninja 02-04-07, 03:51 PM	simply put, no. If anything warblades are the ToB class that would be the closest to overpowered. But even then they still can't come close to taking on the more powerful core classes.
Nitan 02-04-07, 03:56 PM	simply put, no. If anything warblades are the ToB class that would be the closest to overpowered. But even then they still can't come close to taking on the more powerful core classes. I think you mean Crusader based off of their vastly superior recovery method. Also, no they're not.
Derren S. 02-04-07, 03:57 PM	Compared to melee classes yes. Compared to casters, no.
mittenninja 02-04-07, 03:59 PM	I think you mean Crusader based off of their vastly superior recovery method. That really depends if you are going with the absurd (IMHO) CustServ ruling on how it works or how it actually looks like it should work.
FrostHammer 02-04-07, 04:08 PM	What exactly is the CustServ ruling?
Fallenangel359 02-04-07, 04:21 PM	it says when you have been granted all the maneuvers, the next round when you get a maneuver, you gain a new set of maneuvers, instead of just 1. At level 20, with extra granted maneuver, you get 5 of the 7 readied. 2nd round, you have 6 of the 7, 3rd round, you have 7 of 7 assuming you went full blast, you'd have used up to 6 maneuvers so far, no more, due to action limitations Lets assume 5, just for ease sake okay you gain 5 maneuvers back this turn, due to the grant You just gained all of them back, and have no more readied oh, it happens again next round and again and again after 3 rounds, using no more than maneuvers = to the amount originaly granted, in the first 3 rounds, you have an unlimited supply of all maneuvers
crowclub 02-04-07, 06:06 PM	...and the swordsage?
The_Shaman 02-04-07, 06:12 PM	Medium BAB, when your attacks more often than not require you to hit... Hardly such a great idea, don't you think? Beats monk, sure, but overpowered? IMO no. However, a swordsage/dervish sounds quite nice, maybe with 2-3 ranger or swashbuckler levels... Hmm, keen scimitars + blood in the water + dervish dance could get nasty.
turalisj 02-04-07, 07:02 PM	Medium BAB, when your attacks more often than not require you to hit... Hardly such a great idea, don't you think? Beats monk, sure, but overpowered? IMO no. However, a swordsage/dervish sounds quite nice, maybe with 2-3 ranger or swashbuckler levels... Hmm, keen scimitars + blood in the water + dervish dance could get nasty. You just gave me an idea for a nasty leader of a pirate nation :P
crimsonwolf 02-04-07, 07:09 PM	damn you billy joel.....
Tempest Stormwind 02-04-07, 08:41 PM	FallenAngel: To really see the mistake in Customer Service's ruling, you just make sure the maneuvers you initiate on the round you recover maneuvers includes White Raven Tactics. According to another CustServ ruling, you can count as your own ally for that maneuver. This essentially means that after two to three rounds, the crusader can get unlimited actions, courtesy of CustServ, at no cost but a swift action each round. Suffice it to say, I ignore CustServ on a few things, those being two of them.
crowclub 02-05-07, 02:49 PM	Thanks for the replies.
TheWyrmDude 02-05-07, 10:46 PM	You just gave me an idea for a nasty leader of a pirate nation :P http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9846137&postcount=92 Maybe, yes?
Johannixx 02-06-07, 12:59 AM	Out of curiosity, how is the memorization or 'hanging' of swordsage/warblade maneuvers supposed to work? I can see three theories that seem plausible based on the language in the book. I will use a 2nd-level Warblade (4 maneuvers known, 3 readied) as an example. 1. The warblade's readied maneuvers act like a sorcerer's spell list. He chooses three of the maneuvers he knows as 'readied', and can choose to use any of them. Thus, if he chooses to ready Charging Minotaur, Moment of Perfect Clarity and Ruby Nightmare Strike, he could choose to use Ruby Nightmare Strike in three consecutive rounds before spending a full-round action to replenish his readied maneuvers. 2. The warblade's readied maneuvers act like a wizard's memorized spells. He chooses to memorize discreet abilities that cannot be changed without spending an hour in meditation, but can choose to ready the same maneuver multiple times. He could ready two Charging Minotaurs and a Ruby Nightmare Strike, for example. 3. The warblade's readied maneuvers are only used once per encounter per maneuver. Thus, he knows four maneuvers, but chooses three to have available. In combat, he can only use each maneuver once before it is expended. Method #1 seems overpowered. Method #2 seems less overpowered, but still brutal at higher levels when the warblade could hang six uses of a 9th-level maneuver. Method #3 seems the most balanced (i.e. nerfed). Since I have just acquired the Book of Nine Swords and haven't had time to research things yet, is there a consensus or official ruling on this subject?
Tempest Stormwind 02-06-07, 01:25 AM	3 is entirely how it works. Each maneuver can either be readied or not readied, individually. You can't ready multiple copies of a maneuver any more than you can use two Power Attack feats on one attack (and in fact, just like Power Attack, you can't take any maneuver more than once). ...One of these days I should write a tutorial on the subject, since there's apparently a lot of confusion on it.
bahamut920 02-06-07, 02:14 AM	Swordsages are nice and balanced; their total and utter dependency on maneuvers to deal damage and their average BAB are somewhat sub-optimal for a melee class, even. Warblades (with their recovery action and their ability to take previously fighter-only feats... and change them, if necessary) are the closest ToB class to being broken (they hop back and forth across the line, IMO). The crusader is a "flavor" class, really; not really underpowered, but not up to the standards of the other two classes in the book.
Chimaera2000 02-06-07, 04:41 AM	Though each of the Tome of Battle base classes is fun, flavorful and mechanically effective, I'd say that the swordsage is probably the weakest of them all. The medium BAB really hurts as a combat class, and even with Adaptive Style they must spend a full-round action to recover all of their maneuvers. The warblade and crusader can keep hammering away with BAB while recovering maneuvers, plus they're tougher to boot. Another reason why I believe the swordsage to be less effective is that they lack access to both Devoted Spirit and White Raven, which I find to be the most effective disciplines overall. Again, the swordsage is not underpowered by any means! Their sheer number of maneuvers opens up the potential for a lot of combos and they have the skill flexibility to become excellent scouts and skirmishers. I simply find that as a front-line combatant, the swordsage does note perform as well as the crusader or warblade. The sworsage should only be considered overpowered if you consider the crusader and warblade overpowered as well. ....unless you're using the "spells as maneuvers" swordsage adaptation and your DM allows a lot of flexibility in spell selection. Being able to toss fireball and dispel magic all day can be pretty intense.
El_Machinae 02-06-07, 07:34 AM	Compared to melee classes yes. Compared to casters, no. That's the way it feels; ToB makes the melee characters more 'super heroish' that we all want. I figure it's a type of balancing, thus effectively replacing the older character classes.
Templario 02-06-07, 07:43 AM	Can someone explian to me how exactly the adaptive style can help a swordsage to recover all of his maneuvers expended as full action? reading the feat, I understood that I must change at least one of my readied maneuvers and all of them come again to me, except the changed one, coming the new maneuver instead. and how can I explain it nicely to my DM? he allowed the book, but didn't looked deeply at it (he's a "new things tester DM :D)
Issabella 02-06-07, 08:17 AM	simple answer no. bit more complex; is it stronger then melles generally out of the PHB, yes. Is it a needed upgrade to have melle a prayer of competing with casters, oh hell yes!
Nephlite 02-06-07, 08:22 AM	thats the question? Compared to Monk, oh yeah: Both Wis and armor to AC.
turalisj 02-06-07, 09:11 AM	Compared to Monk, oh yeah: Both Wis and armor to AC. But the monk also gets bonuses per level. Plus, the swordsage has multiple atrribute dependency.
belthazzar1113 02-06-07, 09:38 AM	Can someone explian to me how exactly the adaptive style can help a swordsage to recover all of his maneuvers expended as full action? basdically you change all your manuvers to be exactly what you already have. so your list doesn't change. however when you ready your list as a sword sage all of your manuvers start off granted. thus with one full round action you can change you list (to the same thing you already have) and gain all your manuvers back. this is exactly how the feat was intended to work, from the mouths of the designers. so its one of those "natural spell" style feats where anyone who doesn't take it is going for something very very tricky and spicific or else they are an idiot.
Neutronium_Dragon 02-06-07, 10:50 AM	Technically, they start with their maneuvers "readied", not "granted" - crusaders are the only ones who have maneuvers granted. Adaptive Style can be worthwhile for warblades as well, since it'll let him switch his readied maneuvers quickly to cope with a new situation. Crusaders generally have less switching to do, but even they might find use for it. But yes, Adaptive Style is intentionally a feat which most martial adepts are going to want; it's essentially a hidden cost. They might not all take it at 1st level, though. A warblade or crusader can ready all of their known maneuvers at 1st level anyway. A 1st level swordsage is more likely to want it. Swordsages are more akin to monks or rogues when it comes to combat. They're not intended to be front-line tanks, but rather more of a tactical support/skirmishing class. They're very effective in that role.
Tempest Stormwind 02-06-07, 11:15 AM	I've found that, since a swordsage is dependent on his maneuvers and since he takes so long to recover them, Adaptive Style is *nearly* as good for a swordsage as Natural Spell is for a druid. I've played alongside three swordsages, and every one of them took it at or before level 6.
turalisj 02-06-07, 12:34 PM	Also, most swordsage manuevers require them to fight against a single foe.
Templario 02-06-07, 01:22 PM	basdically you change all your manuvers to be exactly what you already have. so your list doesn't change. however when you ready your list as a sword sage all of your manuvers start off granted. thus with one full round action you can change you list (to the same thing you already have) and gain all your manuvers back. this is exactly how the feat was intended to work, from the mouths of the designers. so its one of those "natural spell" style feats where anyone who doesn't take it is going for something very very tricky and spicific or else they are an idiot. Technically, they start with their maneuvers "readied", not "granted" - crusaders are the only ones who have maneuvers granted. Adaptive Style can be worthwhile for warblades as well, since it'll let him switch his readied maneuvers quickly to cope with a new situation. Crusaders generally have less switching to do, but even they might find use for it. But yes, Adaptive Style is intentionally a feat which most martial adepts are going to want; it's essentially a hidden cost. They might not all take it at 1st level, though. A warblade or crusader can ready all of their known maneuvers at 1st level anyway. A 1st level swordsage is more likely to want it. Swordsages are more akin to monks or rogues when it comes to combat. They're not intended to be front-line tanks, but rather more of a tactical support/skirmishing class. They're very effective in that role. Thanks too much guys! I'll save this topic to show him later :D
CaptainPicard 02-06-07, 02:47 PM	I've played in two parties that had Swordsages; one also had a pure Fighter (with PHB2 feats), while the other had a Monk and a Warblade. In the first case, the Fighter actually outperformed the Swordsage on a regular basis. She used a greatsword and had every weapon feat known to man, plus power attack. With her dependency on just strength and constitution (both were incredibly high), she wound up around level 11 doing 2d6 + 19/17-20 with her items factored in (or thereabout). The Swordsage (and this was a Swordsage with a particularly high strength stat) had just two attacks and did 1d10+8 on both of them. Not only that, the Fighter had a total attack bonus around +22 (with items again) as opposed to the Swordsage's +14. Sure, the Swordsage could do a massive sum of damage with Greater Insightful Strike or what have you, but he has to actually hit first. The Fighter could do an additional 16 points of damage and still have the same chance to hit as the Swordsage (24 if charging due to Leap Attack). The only thing we noticed is that the Swordsage was better in single combat with NPCs than the Fighter was, due to his versatility and higher AC. In the second case, the Monk was on par with the Swordsage in any combat that lasted more than a couple of rounds. Once Mountain Hammer and Flashing Sun were gone (it was a much lower level game), the Monk was easily able to meet or exceed the Swordsage's damage each round. Also, the Warblade consistently outperformed the Swordsage in everything they did. Again, however, if we ran the Monk against the Swordsage in a duel, the Swordsage would always win, and he could come close to the Warblade. In conclusion, no, Swordsages are not overpowered, but they are one of, if not the best melee duelist class available.
Fallenangel359 02-06-07, 05:45 PM	swordsages are probably the weakest of the 3 tob classes... crusader, even without using energizer bunny rulings are my favorite
spamfiltre2 02-07-07, 11:19 PM	I've looked it over, and the swordsage looks like a great 1 level dip. At first level you can get a stance that that grants you concealment when you move. For a scout that relies on movement for skirmish damage, this means much greater survivability.
crowclub 02-16-07, 11:56 AM	thanks for the input