Are these invocations balanced? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are these invocations balanced? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Imsolost
01-29-07, 12:29 AM I was thinking of adding some more invocations to the warlock list when I came across tome of magic and found the binder. I immediately liked the class, and wanted to see if I could implement the best of both worlds here. Here is a roungh idea of what I want. Too acquire any of these invocations you must posess the bind vestige feat. The abilities granted by this feat are superceeded by these invocations.

Bind Least Vestige: Choose a single level one vestige. You cannot change your choice on each use of this ability. You can this vestige and gain all the abilities associated it. Your binder level equals your warlock caster level. You may only have one vestige bound at a time while using this ability.

Bind Lesser Vestige: Choose a single vestige of 3rd level or lower. You cannot change your choice on each use of this ability. You can bind this vestige and gain all the abilities associated . Your binder level equals your warlock caster level. You may only have one vestige bound at a time while using this ability. You get a +1 bonus to your binding check. Once you learn this invocation you do not gain the benefits of Bind Least Vestige.

Bind Greater Vestige Choose a single vestige of 5th level or lower. You cannot change your choice on each use of this ability. You can bind this vestige and gain all the abilities associated . Your binder level equals your warlock caster level. You may only have one vestige bound at a time while using this ability. You get a +3 bonus to your binding check, and you may choose to not show your sign if you so desire. Once you learn this invocation you do not gain the benefits of Bind Least Vestige or Bind Lesser Vestige. Special: If you have the improved binding feat you may choose a single vestige of 6th level or lower instead of 5th.

Bind Dark vestige Choose a single vestige of 7th level or lower. You cannot change your choice on each use of this ability. You can bind this vestige and gain all the abilities associated . Your binder level equals your warlock caster level. You may only have one vestige bound at a time while using this ability. You get a +5 bonus to your binding check and you may choose to not show your sign if you so desire. Once you learn this invocation you do not gain the benefits of Bind Least Vestige, Bind Lesser Vestige, or Bind Greater Vestige. Special: If you have the improved binding feat you may choose a single vestige of 8th level or lower instead of 7th.
Imsolost
01-29-07, 04:10 PM nobody has anyhting to say about this idea? :bump:
Flamewarrior
01-29-07, 04:38 PM I have. With this, a warlock, at the cost of one-third his invocations known, has roughly two-thirds of the binder class features along with most of the warlock (really, the useful abilities go beyond invocations). So, don't do this unless you happen to think the warlock is a (very) weak class, and, in this case, you could as well come with a fusion of the two classes (since neither has much versatility) and call it done. By the way, the problem is compounded, since you gain acess to levels 6 and 8 1 level before a binder, and every increase in the amount of simultaneous pacts comes for a focused warlock before for a binder, making the former quite a better binder than a binder. I just don't say the idea is unworkable because I do think both classes are weak; if you really wanna go down this road, just compress the two classes into one, I'd say.
Imsolost
01-29-07, 04:50 PM I tried to make the description of the abilities limit you to only 1 vestige at all so you would have only 1/4 of the total vestiges a binder could posess at a time. I was seeing if this seemed fair for the cost of an invocation. I do see that the warlock would possibly get the vestiges faster than the binder as a problem however.
Jerks
01-29-07, 04:59 PM I think that what you are giving is actually too powerful. Eventhough, you limit it to one vestige at a time, I think that it steals a little thunder away from the binder to eventually have another class be able to bind the upper-tier vestiges. I think I'd cap the Warlocks binding abilities at 5th or 6th level.

I'd actual make the least invocations equal to the Bind Vestige feat.

With the next step up being equal to the Practiced Binder feat.

Then maybe cap it at a Greater Invocation with all abilities and up to 5th level vestiges.

Of course, you'd want to swap out lower level invocations if you grab the next higher one.
Pallin Rahl
01-29-07, 05:04 PM A tad off topic... but something you might find interesting...

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=773794

:)
Grizzled Gryphon
01-29-07, 05:04 PM You could drop the level by one. For example, with the Dark Vestige, you can only pick from the vestiges that are 7th level and lower. Once you make that selection, it is permanent, too. So, you only have that one vestige to choose from.

Also, as it is worded right now, if I made a warlock with these innvocations, I could have one (and only one) 1st level vestige, one (and only one) upt to third level vestige, one (and only one) up to 6th level vestige... well, you see where that is going. I would add in something like this at the end of the lesser and higher invocations: When you choose this invocation, you automatically lose any lesser version, and must relpace it with another invocation of the same level as the one you lose. So, if you take Bind Dark Vestige, you immediately lose Bind Greater Vestige, Bind Lesser Vestige, or Bind Least Vestige, if you had one of those invocations. This loss is immediately replaced with an equel or lesser level invocation. The replacement cannot be another Bind X Vestige invocation.

That limits a warlock to never being able to have more than one vestige to use or pick from.

Or, just gestalt the two classes, and have crazy fun. Whichever flips your boat.:P
Imsolost
01-29-07, 05:20 PM Ok I edited the invocations and tried to go for more balance.
Imsolost
01-30-07, 03:36 AM :bump: I want feedback. :D
Imsolost
01-30-07, 06:25 PM bumping again...
bahamut920
01-30-07, 06:41 PM Personally, I think that they are a bad idea. Giving the warlock the ability to use the binder's main power smacks of thunder-stealage. A good idea may be to make a few invocations that draw on the power of a vestige and duplicate one or two of its abilities (either you choose the vestige and abilities granted when you make the invocation, and make it lower-level, or allow the players to choose when they take the invocation and make it higher-level). If you really want to combine the two, the anima invoker PrC seems a decent attempt at doing so, and should probably be considered over allowing one class to steal the main ability of another.
SKRP
01-31-07, 03:29 AM Once you learn this invocation you do not gain the benefits of Bind Least Vestige, Bind Lesser Vestige, or Bind Greater Vestige.

To make it simpler, I advice erase all annotations like this in quote and add at each invocation "At the same time you can have only one vestige binded by invocation". This changes gains you a better choice, but it is still balanced.

Anyway, I rather like your idea. I will use your invocations in my campaign. Good job ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Imsolost 01-29-07, 12:29 AM	I was thinking of adding some more invocations to the warlock list when I came across tome of magic and found the binder. I immediately liked the class, and wanted to see if I could implement the best of both worlds here. Here is a roungh idea of what I want. Too acquire any of these invocations you must posess the bind vestige feat. The abilities granted by this feat are superceeded by these invocations. Bind Least Vestige: Choose a single level one vestige. You cannot change your choice on each use of this ability. You can this vestige and gain all the abilities associated it. Your binder level equals your warlock caster level. You may only have one vestige bound at a time while using this ability. Bind Lesser Vestige: Choose a single vestige of 3rd level or lower. You cannot change your choice on each use of this ability. You can bind this vestige and gain all the abilities associated . Your binder level equals your warlock caster level. You may only have one vestige bound at a time while using this ability. You get a +1 bonus to your binding check. Once you learn this invocation you do not gain the benefits of Bind Least Vestige. Bind Greater Vestige Choose a single vestige of 5th level or lower. You cannot change your choice on each use of this ability. You can bind this vestige and gain all the abilities associated . Your binder level equals your warlock caster level. You may only have one vestige bound at a time while using this ability. You get a +3 bonus to your binding check, and you may choose to not show your sign if you so desire. Once you learn this invocation you do not gain the benefits of Bind Least Vestige or Bind Lesser Vestige. Special: If you have the improved binding feat you may choose a single vestige of 6th level or lower instead of 5th. Bind Dark vestige Choose a single vestige of 7th level or lower. You cannot change your choice on each use of this ability. You can bind this vestige and gain all the abilities associated . Your binder level equals your warlock caster level. You may only have one vestige bound at a time while using this ability. You get a +5 bonus to your binding check and you may choose to not show your sign if you so desire. Once you learn this invocation you do not gain the benefits of Bind Least Vestige, Bind Lesser Vestige, or Bind Greater Vestige. Special: If you have the improved binding feat you may choose a single vestige of 8th level or lower instead of 7th.
Imsolost 01-29-07, 04:10 PM	nobody has anyhting to say about this idea? :bump:
Flamewarrior 01-29-07, 04:38 PM	I have. With this, a warlock, at the cost of one-third his invocations known, has roughly two-thirds of the binder class features along with most of the warlock (really, the useful abilities go beyond invocations). So, don't do this unless you happen to think the warlock is a (very) weak class, and, in this case, you could as well come with a fusion of the two classes (since neither has much versatility) and call it done. By the way, the problem is compounded, since you gain acess to levels 6 and 8 1 level before a binder, and every increase in the amount of simultaneous pacts comes for a focused warlock before for a binder, making the former quite a better binder than a binder. I just don't say the idea is unworkable because I do think both classes are weak; if you really wanna go down this road, just compress the two classes into one, I'd say.
Imsolost 01-29-07, 04:50 PM	I tried to make the description of the abilities limit you to only 1 vestige at all so you would have only 1/4 of the total vestiges a binder could posess at a time. I was seeing if this seemed fair for the cost of an invocation. I do see that the warlock would possibly get the vestiges faster than the binder as a problem however.
Jerks 01-29-07, 04:59 PM	I think that what you are giving is actually too powerful. Eventhough, you limit it to one vestige at a time, I think that it steals a little thunder away from the binder to eventually have another class be able to bind the upper-tier vestiges. I think I'd cap the Warlocks binding abilities at 5th or 6th level. I'd actual make the least invocations equal to the Bind Vestige feat. With the next step up being equal to the Practiced Binder feat. Then maybe cap it at a Greater Invocation with all abilities and up to 5th level vestiges. Of course, you'd want to swap out lower level invocations if you grab the next higher one.
Pallin Rahl 01-29-07, 05:04 PM	A tad off topic... but something you might find interesting... http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=773794 :)
Grizzled Gryphon 01-29-07, 05:04 PM	You could drop the level by one. For example, with the Dark Vestige, you can only pick from the vestiges that are 7th level and lower. Once you make that selection, it is permanent, too. So, you only have that one vestige to choose from. Also, as it is worded right now, if I made a warlock with these innvocations, I could have one (and only one) 1st level vestige, one (and only one) upt to third level vestige, one (and only one) up to 6th level vestige... well, you see where that is going. I would add in something like this at the end of the lesser and higher invocations: When you choose this invocation, you automatically lose any lesser version, and must relpace it with another invocation of the same level as the one you lose. So, if you take Bind Dark Vestige, you immediately lose Bind Greater Vestige, Bind Lesser Vestige, or Bind Least Vestige, if you had one of those invocations. This loss is immediately replaced with an equel or lesser level invocation. The replacement cannot be another Bind X Vestige invocation. That limits a warlock to never being able to have more than one vestige to use or pick from. Or, just gestalt the two classes, and have crazy fun. Whichever flips your boat.:P
Imsolost 01-29-07, 05:20 PM	Ok I edited the invocations and tried to go for more balance.
Imsolost 01-30-07, 03:36 AM	:bump: I want feedback. :D
Imsolost 01-30-07, 06:25 PM	bumping again...
bahamut920 01-30-07, 06:41 PM	Personally, I think that they are a bad idea. Giving the warlock the ability to use the binder's main power smacks of thunder-stealage. A good idea may be to make a few invocations that draw on the power of a vestige and duplicate one or two of its abilities (either you choose the vestige and abilities granted when you make the invocation, and make it lower-level, or allow the players to choose when they take the invocation and make it higher-level). If you really want to combine the two, the anima invoker PrC seems a decent attempt at doing so, and should probably be considered over allowing one class to steal the main ability of another.
SKRP 01-31-07, 03:29 AM	Once you learn this invocation you do not gain the benefits of Bind Least Vestige, Bind Lesser Vestige, or Bind Greater Vestige. To make it simpler, I advice erase all annotations like this in quote and add at each invocation "At the same time you can have only one vestige binded by invocation". This changes gains you a better choice, but it is still balanced. Anyway, I rather like your idea. I will use your invocations in my campaign. Good job ;)