Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sakarr 10-13-05, 04:33 AM	I'm not sure if its just me, but it seems as though the new class, warlock, from "Complete Arcane", is just plain too unbalanced to allow players to choose them. I've poured through the entire book and I can't find anything about how many times per day a warlock can use his Eldritch Blast, which leads me to believe that there is no limit. This seems too powerful since it has a natural range of 60 ft. and by the 5th level, it practically becomes more powerful than any normal weapon, and it only gets more powerful. Am I just missing something?
CaoSlayer 10-13-05, 04:51 AM	I'm not sure if its just me, but it seems as though the new class, warlock, from "Complete Arcane", is just plain too unbalanced to allow players to choose them. I've poured through the entire book and I can't find anything about how many times per day a warlock can use his Eldritch Blast, which leads me to believe that there is no limit. This seems too powerful since it has a natural range of 60 ft. and by the 5th level, it practically becomes more powerful than any normal weapon, and it only gets more powerful. Am I just missing something? You are just missing the fact that he only can blast once per round, and that by level 5 while a warlock can blast for 3d6 one enemy a wizard can fire ball for 5d6 damage everyone or launch magic misiles for 3d4+3 damage... and by level 11, a melee will do tons of more damage to a single target cause can attack at least 3 times and a magical great sword + power attack deals way more damage than a single blast. The wizard´s casting it is more powerful than warlock ones, and when you need a real powerful spell to bring down foes, the wizard it is more useful, the warlock it is nice just because you dont have to think about running out of spells, so your power it is constant. You have try to compare the warlock with a fighter a rogue a barbarian or anyother non-casting class.
Quirriff 10-13-05, 05:45 AM	Warlocks are a class in thier own right, as Monks are. They are not spellcasters, They are not Warriors, they a not Priests, they are not Rogues, they are....Warlocks. They're also balanced, but they it doesn't feel right to allow for Player Characters because of their monster-like-abilities, but they arn't Monsters they are a character class so they'd be great for an opposing evil adventure party (Controlled by the DM). In a Living Greyhawk campaign, Warlocks are NPCs only, consider that, I do.
Lotus Crane 10-13-05, 06:33 AM	It depends on a lot of different things, but overall, I have to strongly disagree and say the Warlock is one of the weaker classes. It's pretty weak for a PC, but it's even weaker for an NPC adversary, because since an NPC adversary never lasts for more than one encounter, or at least usually doesn't face the PCs more than once per adventure, "infinite" uses doesn't come into play as an actual benefit. Think of the warriors vs spellcasters debate, or the sorcerers vs wizards debate. Some people think warriors (especially fighters) have better lasting power, because you never run out of uses of your weapon or your feats. But, if I'm not mistaken, more people, with more years of play experience, find that a spellcaster's spells, though limited, or more versatile and potent. Even among warrior types, a lot of people think that a barbarian's rage, though limited to a few per day, straight up outclasses a fighter's infinite use feats by virtue of sheer potency on demand. Same thing with sorcerers vs wizards; sure sorcerers can cast more spells per day, but with less spells known, and the inability to use Quicken Spell, wizards have more versatility, and more potency within a single round (when need be) by casting two spells at once. Now we have the warlock, who goes even further in that direction, and has infinite use of his spell(-like abilities). Unfortunately, he learns, what is it, only 11 or 12 of those abilities over 20 levels? Compared to the sorcerer's 40 spells? Not to mention, the warlock's main (and only useful) attack, the Eldritch Blast, does only half the damage of other, real casters' real spells? By 20th level, what do you think is really going to keep you alive through a battle against CR 20+ monsters? Dealing 9d6 damage per round for "infinity," or dropping a quick 40d6 per round for 2 or 3 rounds? Heck, some well-twinked warrior builds can pull off the same average damage as 9d6 per attack, for 4-7 attacks per round. The warlock is only decent in certain situations, such as having 20+ encounters per day of EL's well under the party's level, instead of having the normal 3-6 encounters per day of appropriate EL. The rest of the time, the warlock is broken. Brokenly weak. Real example from a campaign we ran this spring: we had a recurring Warlock antagonist who was obsessed with revenge and kept ambushing the party, sometimes even with goons. Every time I wrote an encounter for him (I co-DMed), I set his level to at least 50% higher than the party. So when the PCs were 6th level, they faced a 9th level Warlock, with various 2nd level henchmen. A 9th level Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric or Druid, could have TPKed them in the first round with a 9d6 area effect spell (Flame Strike, for example). The Warlock was stuck with a measly 5d6 vs one target per round, and was forced to retreat in 3 rounds due to taking too much damage and his allies all dying or surrendering. So called "infinite" use of an ability, even a ranged touch attack, is useless when it can't achieve immediate results in a desperate situation.
Quirriff 10-13-05, 06:57 AM	Elrich Blast is the weakest use of the Warlocks abilities, his invokations when used cleverly are effective, (Such as Devils Sight+Darkness), Warlock are also competent in battle with a 3/4 Base Attack Bonus (and can wear light armor), But Warlocks are CRAP at pure power, they have to be clever, but they can be quite versatile, which makes them good antagonists. Other clever Comboness. Leaps and Bounds+Spider Walk = A Villian with the powers of spiderman that is not Venom Beguiling influence = Conn suckers into soaking damage for you, or convince the big orc guy to smash the PCs with his army. Baleful Utterance = Shatter at will, all sorts of possibilites Miasmic Cload = Give your orc guys an edge in killing the good guys. As you can see, nothing with the pure power of a Wizard or Sorcerer, nor the pure front on strength as a Warrior types, or the same stealth and trickery that Rogues and Bards, but you can compensate. Warlocks must if they want to be useful at all, Use trickery and deception, and their invokations help with that.
Maraxus 10-13-05, 08:21 AM	Is Eldrich Blast overpowered? No. Are his invocations overpowered? Not really, again. Are the special abilities overpowered? Definitly not? Does this make a character who has all the 3 aspects balanced? That is a good question. When I first saw the warlock, I said: "Whow, that's powerful", too. However, there is still the question: What does he offer the party? And that is not much more then an average damage dealer. Definitly not a bad damage dealer, however. Remember that he only needs a ranged touch attack to hit his target. And with one of the last two blast shape invocations he can swich that to area effect if needed, and it is non-elementary, not weapon damage, so you will hardly find opponents that can stop that damage.
Vengeblade 10-13-05, 08:29 AM	I agree it's rather limited in use, but with deceive item, he could cast any spell I believe, plus imbue item makes him somewhat viable to the party support role.
CzarGarrett 10-13-05, 08:47 AM	I see the Warlock being mostly on par with a Bard. Bards are secondary or tertiary fighters, secondary or tertiary arcane casters, and good skill monkeys. But they have several useful abilities that make them ideal as a support class. Warlocks are about the same in fighting, a little better in casting, not quite as good with skills, and their abilities are fairly useful. Not quite as ideal as a Bard, but still great for support.
Quirriff 10-13-05, 09:10 AM	I see the Warlock being mostly on par with a Bard. Bards are secondary or tertiary fighters, secondary or tertiary arcane casters, and good skill monkeys. But they have several useful abilities that make them ideal as a support class. Warlocks are about the same in fighting, a little better in casting, not quite as good with skills, and their abilities are fairly useful. Not quite as ideal as a Bard, but still great for support. They are simular to Bard in Play-Style, As Barbarians are simular to Fighters in play style. A good Warlock never gets in a fair fight, only honest classes can win fair fights, A Warlock plays by normal rules but cheats, Well...they are Evil/Chaotic.
Mirikon 10-13-05, 09:25 AM	I'm not sure if its just me, but it seems as though the new class, warlock, from "Complete Arcane", is just plain too unbalanced to allow players to choose them. I've poured through the entire book and I can't find anything about how many times per day a warlock can use his Eldritch Blast, which leads me to believe that there is no limit. This seems too powerful since it has a natural range of 60 ft. and by the 5th level, it practically becomes more powerful than any normal weapon, and it only gets more powerful. Am I just missing something? You're not missing anything. However, it is still a Spell-like ability, so it can only be used once per round unless feats are used to quicken it. After about level 6 or so, a fighter will probably be keeping pace with a warlock as far as damage goes, and a barbarian will far outshine the warlock in raw damage. Of course, Wizards and Sorcerers, in high levels, will utterly demolish a warlock in a straight fight for the only combat of the day. I view the Warlock as an arcane version of the Fighter class. Levels 1-5, he is God. This is the time of weak wiz/sorcs, where they have to conserve spells because they only have a few. Levels 6-15 or so the Warlock begins fading to the middle of the pack, and then back a bit more, as other classes get powerful spells/abilities later in the game. Barbarians and prepared Wizards especially will wipe the floor with a warlock, though clerics and druids are also gonna be tough. Levels 16-20, the Warlock is a chump compared to a Wizard of equal level, but he still has one thing going for him. Endurance. He can crank out that 9d6 each round until the cows come home, regardless of how much sleep he gets, or not having an hour to prepare spells. Long dungeon crawls favor Warlocks like they do melee classes, as they force wizards to conserve spells, while the warlocks just open up on foes, without worry. Short, single combat events are less favorable to Warlocks, as they would be to melee classes, as they allow spellcasters to use their full fury in the encounter.
Grizzled Gryphon 10-13-05, 09:44 AM	I have a Xeph Warlock that works very nicely. He is naturally psionic, so he can take the Psionic feats. So, he has Psionic Shot, Greater Psionic shot, Quicken Spell Like Ability, and the feat that lets you gain your psionic focus as a move action. Add that to the invisiblity innvocation, and the fly innvocation, and the range of 250 ft range innvocation, and he is a nasty sniper. I don't have the books here, so I don't know the names of the innvocations off the top of my head. He tends to do bad things to the parties enemies. However, he is still only a support character. Without the Fighter and the Wizard, our party would have died many times over (I mean those particular characters, not the class in general). In fact, I just gained 16th level, and I have to pick a Dark Innvocation rather quickly. Not sure which to take, though. Regardless of all that, he would make a poor encounter unless the party were well under his level. The best he can do is a 11D6 blast, but he can do it every round. If he could stay away from the melee combatants, he could probably kill the caster in short order, but then how does he deal with the Fighter or Barbarian? Or even the Cleric? I guess if he can fly, and they can't, then they are in trouble. As soon as the Wizard dispels his flight, he not only takes falling damage, but then has the Fighter types doing horrible things to him that he doesn't have the HP to live through. Sure, he has DR 4/Cold Iron, but if they are anywhere near as impressive as OUR fighter, it won't matter. So, overpowered? Heck, no. Underpowered? Not if you play them right; but then, that is the key to any class, isn't it?
Traevanon 10-13-05, 09:46 AM	I find them to be Not-So-Powerful as a DM and worse they are one of the most boring classes to play. The Warlock in our campaign spent most of his time flying invisibly, casting eldritch bolts that would split to a second target. After a while I didnt bother to ask him what he did on his initiative, I just told him it was his turn and to roll his damage. After another while we really didnt even need the player to be at the table, we could just as easily roll his damage for him. Ever seen the movie "Real Genius"? Remember the part where the college class about the middle of the term is all tape recorders at the desks. Then next time you see it the teacher isnt there either, he's just playing his recorded lecture to a bunch of tape recorders... this is what it felt like. Why bother? The thing that really screws over Warlocks is Spell Resistance. Otherwise they just do their low damage, automatically, every round.
Grizzled Gryphon 10-13-05, 09:58 AM	One other thing. One place the Warlock really shines is as part of a Gestalt class. Then it is a really nice class, making a nice addition to almost any other class. I have found Soulknife/Warlock to be a nice combo. also, the Warlock/ Scout could work, but I need to check if the Skirmish would work with the Eldritch Blast. *sigh* *Gets books* Well, after reading both, I don't see any reason why not. skirmish works with any ranged attack made while skirmishing, but only within 30 ft. Eldritch Blast is a ranged attack(ranged touch, I know, but still ranged), so it would apply. Hmm, psionic shot, skirmish, and eldritch blast? Well, that can get icky. LOL By the by, the Soulknife/ Warlock with psionic weapon, and hideous blow makes for ugly amounts of damage, too.
Quirriff 10-13-05, 10:19 AM	Oh Gosh, this has come to the player Min/Maxing time of the thread, Oh well it was good while it lasted.
Todd 10-13-05, 10:30 AM	Is the Warlock class too powerful? Nope. Not even close. A Warlock is more like a fighter with a funky blast than a mage in most setups. Sure he can blast all day but he doesn't get to do the really crazy stuff like a mage can ... unless he has a scroll, staff, or other such item ... but then again the rogue could do the same. A reasonably built wizard or sorcerer will outshine the warlock at most levels.
Grizzled Gryphon 10-13-05, 10:33 AM	Oh Gosh, this has come to the player Min/Maxing time of the thread, Oh well it was good while it lasted. Your kidding me, right? That is all any of these threads are!! No one here seems to care for "flavor", they just want power. that has to be the one thing I dislike the most about these forums. But, when in Rome... Trust me, I played ONE Min/Maxed character, and I HATED IT. It was a stupid Ranger Wizard combo to get to Arcane Archer as soon as possible. I would have much rather played a straight Ranger, but it was "important to the game", or so said the DM. The way I usually play, is NEVER take PrC, UNLESS they go with the character Concept. Surely not for POWER. Power gaming is all well and good, sometimes, but too many players ONLY power game. Which sucks. I have seen players **** and moan because they didn't have an 18 stat. Are you kidding me?!?! Most of my characters would have killed for an 18, but that just makes the character more interesting to play. God forbid poeple might have to THINK!! Sorry, just had to vent a little...
Quirriff 10-13-05, 10:48 AM	Your kidding me, right? That is all any of these threads are!! No one here seems to care for "flavor", they just want power. that has to be the one thing I dislike the most about these forums. But, when in Rome... Trust me, I played ONE Min/Maxed character, and I HATED IT. It was a stupid Ranger Wizard combo to get to Arcane Archer as soon as possible. I would have much rather played a straight Ranger, but it was "important to the game", or so said the DM. The way I usually play, is NEVER take PrC, UNLESS they go with the character Concept. Surely not for POWER. Power gaming is all well and good, sometimes, but too many players ONLY power game. Which sucks. I have seen players **** and moan because they didn't have an 18 stat. Are you kidding me?!?! Most of my characters would have killed for an 18, but that just makes the character more interesting to play. God forbid poeple might have to THINK!! Sorry, just had to vent a little... Well, I don't allow PrC classes (They are for a select few NPCs, for when I want Assassins that have the Instant killing that the 1st ed Assasin class had, mostly for the "Fear" factor. And Blackguards when I want Anti-Paladins, but even those "core" PrC classes drive me nutz, Assassins cast spells, and Blackguards "Arn't quite right". Warlocks are a true character class but their wickedness is best left in the hands of the Dungeon Master, As was 1st Ed Assassins (Danm those guys could be scary). As I'v tried to point out the real thing you've got to do with warlocks is be wicked, evil and very deceptive.
Grizzled Gryphon 10-13-05, 11:04 AM	Well, i don't know about evil. The Tragic Hereo forced to use evil powers for Good? kind of a fun class to play. At least, that is how I play my warlock. He hates himself, and so does pretty much everyone else, but he still feels the need to right wrongs, and what not. Only a select few realize the heroe within, but even they can't bring themseves to like it. As for the rest of the party, they fear he will lose himself to the darkness, and become their enemy. They really DO like him, and would hate to have to oppose him like that. The whole plot of the game goes really deep.
Jaxgaret 10-13-05, 11:09 AM	They are simular to Bard in Play-Style, As Barbarians are simular to Fighters in play style. A good Warlock never gets in a fair fight, only honest classes can win fair fights, A Warlock plays by normal rules but cheats, Well...they are Evil/Chaotic. Somebody sounds like they woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning... so if a 'cheater' warlock or bard is standing over the bleeding corpse of someone they 'dishonestly' killed, it doesn't count, because they 'cheated' right? =)
Puca 10-13-05, 11:25 AM	Funny. I started reading this thread thinking I was going to have to defend the poor little warlock against the slanderous charge that he is overpowered. Now, I feel compelled to defend him as a class that is at least worth playing. 1) 9d6 damage is nowhere close to what a sorcerer of wizard can dish out, but it is still nothing to shake a stick at. It is decent, and considering it cant be countered as easily as energy damage or the like, it is pretty reliable. It has no save, and the warlock is better able to land his touch attacks than other arcane casters with his better B.A.B. Also, by the time you are of any significant level, you can add shapes to make it more effective and essences to do more damage or impose debilitating effects. The warlock is not ever going to out-shine the wizard when it comes to calling down the power of the universe, but hes like the energizer bunny. Slow and steady often wins the race, and as long as you see him for what he is rather than comparing him to what hes not, you can see his immense value. 2) With his invocations, he can be amazingly effective at battlefield control. Chilling Tentacles is better than Evards, and thats one of the most powerful out there. Other invocations can be deadly in their own right (quickened Word of Change?) or boost him to a supporting role that few can match (see everything, everywhere, invisible, magically dark, whatever all the time.) 3) The warlock is not as good a supporting caster as another arcanist or a cleric can be, since none of his buffs can really boost anyone else, but he is very independent. He doesnt need as much help to buff up as other classes with his resistances, DR, and fast healing. In addition, he can use wands and scrolls to buff himself as well. 4) And speaking of magic items, he can use them with 100% reliability after 4th, and make anything he cant buy after 12th. Arcane, divine, whatever: there is no known spell that he cant cast given time enough to scribe it on a scroll. No other class can boast this. Warlocks must keep this in mind when they pick their very limited number of invocations. Dont take Wall of Perilous Flame when you can get a Wand of Wall of Fire. Youve only got 12 invocations. Make the most of them by knowing what you can duplicate with a wand or will use infrequently enough to just have it on a scroll. ... and worse they are one of the most boring classes to play. The Warlock in our campaign spent most of his time flying invisibly, casting eldritch bolts that would split to a second target.Bull****. Sorry, theres no nice way to say it. Warlocks have some of the best built-in flavor in the game. Dark demonic compacts, maybe made by an ancestor, haunt them or make them feared and hated outcasts wherever they go? Play that and be chaotic good. Or fey influenced? Connected to nature in a mischievous, eerie way? How cool can you make that. Plus, he uses charisma as a primary stat; and he has better skills for utilizing it than the sorcerer; and he has invocations that can literally make him a silver-tongued devil. (OK, figuratively but you get it.) This class reeks of flavor and role-playing possibilities. The fact that a DM let one tactic be so effective that it made combat with a warlock routine isnt the fault of the class, or even the player for that matter. (Hmm, whos left to point the finger at?) Im not saying that the warlock isnt a little behind on the power curve at high levels, but it is still a pretty decent class if you play it, as opposed to trying to use the warlock to play a wizards role. It can also be one of the most fun to play, if you are willing to try. Warlocks are a true character class but their wickedness is best left in the hands of the Dungeon Master, As was 1st Ed Assassins (Danm those guys could be scary). As I'v tried to point out the real thing you've got to do with warlocks is be wicked, evil and very deceptive.Please. This is just as applicable to sorcerers, wizards, rogues, monks, bards. It just isnt true. They dont have to be wicked and dont have to be played that way at all.
Quirriff 10-13-05, 11:28 AM	The Duel Between the Fighter and the Warlock: Fighter: Okay, we've agreed that it will be a fair fight, no spells, and only 1 weapon. Warlock: That's right no spells*, and only 1 weapon*, and since you can clearly see i'v only got a light mace, and you've got a great sword, you've aggreed to wear this Padded armor -5 Missle Attracter, it will be a fair fight, begin. Fighter swings his sword only to have it shattered, when the Warlock used Baleful utterance. Warlock gets free attack (since Fighter lost his sword): Invokes Darkness (Previously casted Devils sight) Fighter takes a swing at warlock with his fists and misses, Warlock gains attack of oppertunity and hits fighter with light mace for 6 damage Warlock. Warlock stikes again, but misses, Fighter somehow hits warlock, but since warlock has damage reduction his puny fists do nothing, warlock gains attack of oppertunity hits fighter for maximum critical damage and kills fighter. Warlock wins the fair fight by cheating.
Grizzled Gryphon 10-13-05, 11:30 AM	Well said, Puca. I couldn't agree more.
Puca 10-13-05, 11:31 AM	What? What is your point? Edit: Refering to the bizzare scenario that Quirriff posted.
Grizzled Gryphon 10-13-05, 11:32 AM	Just saying I agree with you, about how fun the Warlock is to play.
Grizzled Gryphon 10-13-05, 11:36 AM	Quiriff origionally posted a thread that a Warlock can't win a fight fairly; the warlock would have to cheat. Of course, how is the above fight fair for the Warlock? The warlock can't use his most powerful abilities, but the fighter can? Kind of like a fighter and a Monk squareing off, only, to make it "fair", both have to wear Full Plate, and use Great Swords.
anarco_rata 10-13-05, 11:51 AM	hell, i like warlocks, they make really interesting good character, always figthing with the corruption of the dark side!
Maraxus 10-13-05, 01:11 PM	Agreed, the only "unfair" action of the warlock would probably be that charming power if his opponent does not know he is an opponent. But after a: "Hey, now we fight." - "Okay, I'm ready." anything is fair, including flight and invisibility and anything. About Imbue item: Hey, I think of a very special role here. All the Warlock does is travel with the group. Through he does about nothing, he is about the most valueable character, because ... he has imbue item and scribe scroll and the wizard has the greatest grimoire known to mankind. :D
Puca 10-13-05, 02:14 PM	he has imbue item and scribe scroll and the wizard has the greatest grimoire known to mankind.That is nice, but when you think about it, not that powerful. The wizard still has to pay the costs, cash and time, of putting the spell in his book, and since he could have just bought the scroll anyway, a warlock imbuing only saves him 50% of the cost. Nice, but not too nice to stay balanced.
beejazz 10-13-05, 04:12 PM	Has anyone noticed that a warlock deals no more damage with his eldritch blast than a rogue with its sneak attack? Has anyone noticed the 3/4 BAB (again, ditto to rogue)? And is a touch attack in any way comparable to an attack on a flat-footed opponent? There are certain differences: 1)a warlock can do this once per round EVERY ROUND, his other action being a move or invocation (compare to the rogue, who can achieve the same by feinting... or the scout who is NO DIFFERENT in this respect) 2)eldritch blast can be defended against similarly to most magic (note its deviation from a sneak attack in this respect) 3)warlocks have fewer skills than a rogue, but have you noticed how many of the invocations enhance skill use, mobility, and interaction (what are a rogue's skills FOR if not movement and interaction?) 4)A warlock's decieve item and item creation rely on use magic device (you are probably going to max this skill out... this for a class with 2 per level) 5)Armor prof=rogue 6)Weapons=rogue 7)one good save=rogue 8)HD=ROGUE! so there you have it. the warlock is more comparable to, and balanced with, a rogue. ...just because it's arcane doesn't make it like a wizard or sorcerer
Kaboth 10-13-05, 05:51 PM	Are Warlocks too powerful? This debate again? The answer is no. The other commenters that say they suck... Well you go on beleiving that. Warlocks are great for endurance, they are like a timex watch... Still going. If you battles never go more than 5 to 8 rounds and you never have more than 3 to 4 fights before you allow the PC's to rest then one of the Warlocks key features will never shine. Warlocks are like a bard as some others have said. They get a bit of everything as you level up. Some warlocks are geared for more blasting, some are geared for more battle field control some are built survival, etc...One of the biggest factors that limit Warlock's is the fact they are feat intensive. They need feats and lots of them, so getting extra feats or abilities is always nice. My warlock is a 2 fighter and 10 Warlock right now, next level will be a sweet level for him. However, I took the 2 fighter levels for the boost in HP and the fighter feats so he could get precise shot and point blank shot and give hima boost to his fort save as well. (side benefit is pretty much armor, shields and weapon use). A Warlock's power also resides n the use of his invocations which most are unlimited in use and/or 24 hour durations (basically on/off). As others have mentioned clever use of these invocations can do a lot of things. My warlock is not realy built around his blast. If I can not blast it I have a +3 Cold Iron Shortsword and I have a +3 Admantine mace to go with a back up. MY character is built more defense and survival. Fell Flight - It is slow but its always on... But here is the catch. Its based speed is the same as your base land speed. So if you can increase that you increase your flight speed. Expeditous Retreat is +30 feet, so make an item with that will give you a flight speed of 60... I have (while talking to another warlock friend of mine) have managed to boost my flight to a speed of 100 feet with perfect maeuverability. It is also good for shuttling people not to mention being constantly airborne is a good defense of itself. However, be careful this is not like flight if it gets dispelled you do NOT featherfall so you need a ring of featherfall. Flee the Scene - unlimited short ranged D-Doors. I have used this power many times to pull near death characters out of combat. You can also port more than one person as well. This power is also great for shuttling characters past obsticles or traps. See the Unseen - Darkvisin 60 feet (nice) and the best part those damn invisible monsters!! no more 50% miss, flat footed AC or giving them a +2 to hit, maybe even deny them sneak attack dice! Dark One's Own Luck - I have a 24 CHA, that means I can shift my +7 to one save anytime I so choose. Very dynamic power... Ya got undead? Oh my there goes my fort save being boosted... charming creatures or fear? Oh my there goes Will save...etc...keep boosting your CHA and the save bonuses keep going up.... Not to mention so does your UMD checks. I do have Eldritch Spear and Eldritch Chain for my Eldritch Blast as of right now. Sorry blasting at 250 feet with no range incriment at a touch AC is pretty dang nice. Eldritch Chain allows 3 targets which effectively can double my damage output every round which I average about 27 damage on the intial blast so if I can catch 3 that is 54 damage a round which is nothing to scoff at. I also have tough skin (+2 DR) and I managed to get a ring of Evasion last session. Couple that with Fast Healing and ER5 Acid/Elec makes the Warlock a durable fighter. Yes Fire or Cold would have been more useful but I took leadership and built a favored soul cohort and she gives me heals or whatever I need. Ya see with a high CHA score you get a decent follower as well. Next level my DR will 5/Cold Iron, My blast will scaled to 8D6 and I will either take Chilling Tentacles or Vitrilioc Blast. I will probably take the altter and then take Chilling Tent's next. Powerful? Not really, but quite effective and can cause some headaches for DM's especially for like traps. I still think a Warlock could hold their own against any other class. Weak and boring, I just think those people are misinformed and very short sighted and narrow minded. Warlocks have very diverse from player to player as others have shown. my 2 cents worth.
Edymnion 10-13-05, 06:05 PM	No, Warlocks are not too powerful, as long as you make one small change. Remove their invocations which are essentially save or die spells (like Word of Change). When they can sit there and essentially use Baleful Polymorph at will, there is nothing that can stand up to him unless they are totally immune to shapechange. Have the party tanks make a roadblock, and the Warlock can just sit there and go "Word of Change. Did he fail his save?" No. Next round, "Word of Change, did he fail his save yet?" Yes. "Okay, I turn him into a turtle." Fight over. Remove all invocations that have the potential to take somebody out of the fight in one casting, and the Warlock is fine. Leave those abilities there, and he's the most broken thing to ever get published, once he gets those abilities.
Maraxus 10-13-05, 06:31 PM	The good question is: What abilities to quicken? Earthen Grasp could be funny. Flee the sceen will be great of cause, as it is an invocation you will want to have anyway. If you think there are better dark invocations then Retributive invisibility, walk unseen is a nice choise, too. And if you want something for the 18th level, quicken word of changing.
BlaineTog 10-13-05, 07:13 PM	The warlock as written is balanced, IMO, although some of the invocations aren't good enough to be considered. Really, really fun to play, too. The trick is to be tricky.
Lord Schpungus 10-13-05, 07:20 PM	Oh, Edy, you never cease to make me laugh. Warlock goes: "Turtle!" Opponent makes his save, and rips warlock to shreds. Next round: Warlock would go: "Turtle!" but his lungs and larynx aren't connected any more. Opponent chortles over bones of puny warlock who dared get close to opponent.
BlaineTog 10-13-05, 07:30 PM	Oh, Edy, you never cease to make me laugh. Warlock goes: "Turtle!" Opponent makes his save, and rips warlock to shreds. Next round: Warlock would go: "Turtle!" but his lungs and larynx aren't connected any more. Opponent chortles over bones of puny warlock who dared get close to opponent.Indeed. If the warlock has forever to kill someone with impunity, simply pelting the enemy with many eldritch blasts (or even simply numerous arrows) would probably kill him just as well.
Edymnion 10-13-05, 07:59 PM	Oh, Edy, you never cease to make me laugh. Warlock goes: "Turtle!" Opponent makes his save, and rips warlock to shreds. Next round: Warlock would go: "Turtle!" but his lungs and larynx aren't connected any more. Opponent chortles over bones of puny warlock who dared get close to opponent.Perhaps you missed where I said "the party tanks play roadblock"? No character is going to be alone. No caster class is ever going to be on the front lines. A Warlock is going to have fighters, rangers, monks, possibly even the rogues between him and the badguy. Yelling "TURLTE!" ignores anybody they might be in melee with, which EB doesn't. And, as has been said, the EB's damage does not actually scale up very well at all, meaning that by the time they get the ability to turtlize people, they are much better off trying to end the fight as quickly as possible with a turtle than they are trying to whittle sombody down with EB. Because, remember, if the badguy can just breeze through the Warlock's defenders whenever they want like you're implying, then the Warlock is going to HAVE to take them out as quickly as they can, instead of spending round after round hitting them with magical energy that isn't subject to energy resistance or damage reduction. A dozen rounds whittling the dragon down with EB, or a single round and a lucky roll on getting by it's Spell Resistance to have a really ticked off turtle? Hmmm... Direct damage dealing invocations, thats fine. Buffing invocations, thats fine too. Utility invocations, no problemo. Baleful Polymorph, Finger of Death, Power Word Kill, those are not acceptable as something that can be cast an infinite number of times a day. Especially on top of the fact that he can turn invisible, fly up, and yell Turtle. Not only is he out of melee range, but invisibility means everybody has that 50% miss chance straightup, and with no pretty little lines connecting point A to point B, he's going to be next to impossible to pinpoint enough to hurt.
aelryinth 10-13-05, 08:13 PM	that was one horrible combat example. First, he does have to shatter the weapon...that's not a guarantee. Second, why didn't the fighter just grapple him? Touch attack, the AoO is against his armored AC and is going to miss, he'll wrap up the wimpy warlock, take away his mace, and beat him to death with it. ==Aelryinth
BlaineTog 10-13-05, 08:17 PM	Perhaps you missed where I said "the party tanks play roadblock"? No character is going to be alone. No caster class is ever going to be on the front lines. A Warlock is going to have fighters, rangers, monks, possibly even the rogues between him and the badguy. Yelling "TURLTE!" ignores anybody they might be in melee with, which EB doesn't. And, as has been said, the EB's damage does not actually scale up very well at all, meaning that by the time they get the ability to turtlize people, they are much better off trying to end the fight as quickly as possible with a turtle than they are trying to whittle sombody down with EB. Because, remember, if the badguy can just breeze through the Warlock's defenders whenever they want like you're implying, then the Warlock is going to HAVE to take them out as quickly as they can, instead of spending round after round hitting them with magical energy that isn't subject to energy resistance or damage reduction. A dozen rounds whittling the dragon down with EB, or a single round and a lucky roll on getting by it's Spell Resistance to have a really ticked off turtle? Hmmm... Direct damage dealing invocations, thats fine. Buffing invocations, thats fine too. Utility invocations, no problemo. Baleful Polymorph, Finger of Death, Power Word Kill, those are not acceptable as something that can be cast an infinite number of times a day. Especially on top of the fact that he can turn invisible, fly up, and yell Turtle. Not only is he out of melee range, but invisibility means everybody has that 50% miss chance straightup, and with no pretty little lines connecting point A to point B, he's going to be next to impossible to pinpoint enough to hurt.I fail to see how this is significantly different from a sorcerer belting out save-or-dies. Sure the warlock doesn't have to worry about running out, but not only will he still be wasting actions in there but his save DCs are also almost definatelly lower than the save DCs of the sorcerer (and if they aren't, he spent an inordinate amount of character resources to do that and deserves the DCs). Baleful Polymorph is a level 5 spell. At the level the Warlock gains access to it, a Sorcerer can belt out with it essentially as often as he wants. What's more, it's only a save-or-die spell for warrior-types, and they almost always have a high Fort save. It's a save-and-be-rather-inconvenienced-and-then-another-save-or-die for casters; as far as I can tell, they can still cast spells without somatic components as animals, so unless they fail that second save (a will save, I should mention), they still at least have that. (It's also arguable, I think, that they can even make those somatic components while in certain animal forms) And Psions, of course, aren't in any trouble at all unless they relied heavily on their equipment unless they fail that second save.
Grizzled Gryphon 10-13-05, 10:34 PM	Kaboth; a very well spent two copper, too.
Koga:The ninja trick 10-13-05, 10:41 PM	The Koga says it's not overpowerd, so you know now it isn't.. It's bassicaly an aristocrat with a couple of spell-like abilities..
Grizzled Gryphon 10-13-05, 11:15 PM	Umm, the verbal components are a little rough if your a turtle. Just thought I would mention that...But, yeah, the caster can cast all of the silent and still spells he has... until the Barbarian steps on him. Unless I am mistaken. I thought you get whatever hit points the creature you turn into has, right?
Kaboth 10-13-05, 11:34 PM	Kaboth; a very well spent two copper, too. Thank you *bows* This topic resurfaces time to time and I have to educate some people. However, Word of Change is probably the power that is debatable if it is too powerful or not. I choose to avoid on sheer principle its no fun to win that way but I might be changing my mind soon. If I do though it wont be until I get vitrilioc Blast, then Chilling Tent's first. Word of change has no effect on magic immune opponents LOL. Again, thank you for enjoying my post.
Grizzled Gryphon 10-13-05, 11:40 PM	I have decided that Word of Change is akin to the Sending ability; if they save, it hurts the warlock. Puts a limit on it. Admittedly, not much of one, but still a limit.
Quirriff 10-14-05, 12:28 AM	Umm, the verbal components are a little rough if your a turtle. Just thought I would mention that...But, yeah, the caster can cast all of the silent and still spells he has... until the Barbarian steps on him. Unless I am mistaken. I thought you get whatever hit points the creature you turn into has, right? Nope, a polymorphed creature has as many HP as they usually do, a Great Red Wyrm polymorphed into an ant, would be impossible to squash, but only as dangerous as an ant (mostly harmless).
Grizzled Gryphon 10-14-05, 12:49 AM	I thought that was the case with regular polymorph, but wasn't certain with baleful polymorph. Thanks! :)
Lotus Crane 10-14-05, 02:25 AM	No, Warlocks are not too powerful, as long as you make one small change. Remove their invocations which are essentially save or die spells (like Word of Change). When they can sit there and essentially use Baleful Polymorph at will, there is nothing that can stand up to him unless they are totally immune to shapechange. Have the party tanks make a roadblock, and the Warlock can just sit there and go "Word of Change. Did he fail his save?" No. Next round, "Word of Change, did he fail his save yet?" Yes. "Okay, I turn him into a turtle." Fight over. Uh, I find the plausibility of this situation to be questionable. If the Warlock has allies powerful enough to serve as "roadblocks" for several rounds while he keeps trying to play to his strength of "infinite" uses... wouldn't it be more efficient for his allies to instead just gang up on the enemy in question and defeat him faster with a more conventional method? The "ideal" situations for a Warlock's strengths to shine through seem to be mythological. 1) 10, 20, or more encounters in a day: either the encounters are so pathetic that nobody's abilities, "infinite" or not, are necessary, or during the later encounters the Warlock is literally left on his own, without the potency-on-demand to make a difference by himself. 2) The party protecting the Warlock for several rounds while he uses his "infite" abilities to either buff himself (most Warlock buffs are self only) or force several save-or-dies on the enemy: the party should be in the battle doing their own thing instead of babysitting the Warlock, and/or the party has to waste (non-infinite) resources anyway, even if all they're doing is placing themselves between the enemy and the Warlock. 3) Lots of magic items, to either deceive or imbue: this is heavily dependant upon the generosity of the DM (which is something you never want to rely on), not to mention a rogue, bard, sorcerer, or especially artificer, could do the same thing.
BlaineTog 10-14-05, 02:40 AM	Umm, the verbal components are a little rough if your a turtle.Nope. You keep your voice. It is only wildshape where you lose your voice.
Grizzled Gryphon 10-14-05, 02:53 AM	Really? Well, i sure didn't know that... *cracks the PHB* I see I have some serious reading to do...
Worguron 10-14-05, 04:09 AM	Actually, because Word of Changing references Baleful Polymorph, which references Polymorph, which references Alter Self, I would have to go with the Alter Self description of speaking. Namely, you can only speak (and cast spells with verbal components) if your new form is able to speak intelligibly (as in speak an actual language). Also, your limbs have to be capable of fine manipulations to use any somatic components. Since I don't think turtles, bunnies, or other such creatures have an intelligible language which they can speak normally, I am pretty sure you can't cast spells.
Traevanon 10-14-05, 07:01 AM	Bull****. Sorry, theres no nice way to say it. Warlocks have some of the best built-in flavor in the game. Dark demonic compacts, maybe made by an ancestor, haunt them or make them feared and hated outcasts wherever they go? Play that and be chaotic good. Or fey influenced? Connected to nature in a mischievous, eerie way? How cool can you make that. Plus, he uses charisma as a primary stat; and he has better skills for utilizing it than the sorcerer; and he has invocations that can literally make him a silver-tongued devil. (OK, figuratively but you get it.) This class reeks of flavor and role-playing possibilities. The fact that a DM let one tactic be so effective that it made combat with a warlock routine isnt the fault of the class, or even the player for that matter. (Hmm, whos left to point the finger at?) Im not saying that the warlock isnt a little behind on the power curve at high levels, but it is still a pretty decent class if you play it, as opposed to trying to use the warlock to play a wizards role. It can also be one of the most fun to play, if you are willing to try. He chose his class and picked his incantations. It was a large party and it was his second character. At 6th level he only had 2 invocations to choose and he chose fly and invisibility, wise choices to keep from being a big greasy goth spot on the dungeon wall, historically speaking though these two are low in the damage dealing department. So he can use a dagger (1d4 vs AC) or Eldritch Blast (3d6 vs touch). There are no other options. Further, his one tactic was NOT particularly effective. Fly and Invis proved to be only average defensively (AOE or grapple were rough), but the 3d6 damage he was dealing was the second worst in the party (just ahead of the defensive fighting Paladin with a 10 Str). The one thing he had on his side was that it was pretty much automatic, which like I said eventually became boring for that very same reason. As far as Flavor - Warlock is the anti-flavor. Its yet another goth evil guy who doesnt want to be evil... yay. What a mediocre wash of non-commitment! Accept your evilness! Or maybe you are just trying to keep from getting skished by the good guys and still get along with the bad guys. Which, by the way is the flip-side of being an accepted-by-none, feared and hated outcast. "Perhaps I should warn you sir before you choose a warlock, that nobody in this dungeon/prison cares about black lipstick, white make-up and slicked back hair, though they are all delighted that your dashing leather cape provides no combat bonuses whatsoever. The only flavor the dungeon cares about is one kind, the flavor of your flesh, and to them a warlock tastes just like chicken. Enjoy your stay."
Todd 10-14-05, 09:53 AM	He chose his class and picked his incantations. It was a large party and it was his second character. At 6th level he only had 2 invocations to choose and he chose fly and invisibility, wise choices to keep from being a big greasy goth spot on the dungeon wall, historically speaking though these two are low in the damage dealing department. So he can use a dagger (1d4 vs AC) or Eldritch Blast (3d6 vs touch). There are no other options. At 6 level the warlock has more that TWO invocations ... and he can only have one Lesser one so he could only have fly or invisiblity, not both ... however he should have 3 least invocations at that point too.
Kaboth 10-14-05, 12:05 PM	Uh, I find the plausibility of this situation to be questionable. If the Warlock has allies powerful enough to serve as "roadblocks" for several rounds while he keeps trying to play to his strength of "infinite" uses... wouldn't it be more efficient for his allies to instead just gang up on the enemy in question and defeat him faster with a more conventional method? The "ideal" situations for a Warlock's strengths to shine through seem to be mythological. 1) 10, 20, or more encounters in a day: either the encounters are so pathetic that nobody's abilities, "infinite" or not, are necessary, or during the later encounters the Warlock is literally left on his own, without the potency-on-demand to make a difference by himself. 2) The party protecting the Warlock for several rounds while he uses his "infite" abilities to either buff himself (most Warlock buffs are self only) or force several save-or-dies on the enemy: the party should be in the battle doing their own thing instead of babysitting the Warlock, and/or the party has to waste (non-infinite) resources anyway, even if all they're doing is placing themselves between the enemy and the Warlock. 3) Lots of magic items, to either deceive or imbue: this is heavily dependant upon the generosity of the DM (which is something you never want to rely on), not to mention a rogue, bard, sorcerer, or especially artificer, could do the same thing. Well the party's tanks are supposed to play roadblock for the arcane types first off if they can... Next, your Walock should have FOUR Invocations at level 6... Now I can not say what is good our bad but at level 6 I would have suggested the warlock take Fell Flight (that is a great spell self buff that CAN help the party). Now 2 of the least invocations I would recomend at level 6 would be sickening blast and dark ones own luck... I dont care what class you are...Fort Save every round or be sickend for 1 minute (10 rounds FYI) is a free thing... He can always switch it when he gets to level 11 for vitrilioc blast. 1. I never said the encounters had to be mythological of 10 or 20 or more, but those situations have happened... but if you have 4 or more encounters and those encounters are long fights thats were the Warlock shines. If not your DM is a wuss and baby's the party and never throws a serious challenge at them. 2. The warlock once he buffs himself can always leave it on he does not have to invoke his buffs every fight. If you play it that way then you are either hosing the Warlock or playing it entirely wrong. IN addition, I am sure your other arcane casters and clerics always rush to melee range of the opponents rather than let the party tanks act as road blocks? The only realy have one save or die spell and that is later in levels. 3. Well depending on what rules you are using and/or using a magic starved campaign. The warlock can use scrolls, (which are arcane or divine) and have the others craft those scrolls or buy them. Wands are also very good. My warlock has a wand of Dispel Magic, Cure Light Wounds. 4. Imbue Item is MUCH later in level but take craft rod or staff and the warlock just become a back up caster. I use my "defiency" in buffing by making or getting items that do the buffing themselves. 3d6 every round is nothing to scoff at. Yes wizards and sorcs can do a fireball or lighteningbolt for 6d6 damage at your level but how many times? 3? Maybe 4??? AND they have to make sure your party tanks are not in the way... Lets do some math...shall we??? 4 encounters that last 5 rounds. 20 rounds of total combat. A 6th level sorceror can do 3 first level, 3 second level and 2 third level spells... lets say he tags one group of mobs with a fireball in one encounter.. lets say 4 mobs out of 6.. On average he is going to do 21 damage right? Next fight there is a little tougher mob and he uses 2 magic missles for a total of 4 missles which is 4d4+4, thats a total of 14 damage, 3rd fight he decides to use one scorching ray and 1 magic missle... the ray does 4d6 damage which averages out to 14 damage and the Magic Missle will do 7 damage and then finally the BBEG fight where the Sorc does lightening bolt, scorching ray to him (or her) whch the damage is for both on average 21 and 14 for both. Now this si assuming NONE of the mobs make their reflex save too. So the equation looks like this all cleaned up (21 x 4) + 14 +14 + 7+ 21 +14 = 154 Damage total. This is assuming though no failed saves, and all scorching rays hit for the Sorceror even though the warlock will probably be more apt to hit with a better BAB. The Warlock is easier... Lets give him Point Blank Shot and Ranged Touch Specialization... Which is +3 to damage. Lets give say he misses 5 times and only half the shots are within 30 feet or less shall we??? Meaning So out of 20 possible rounds (and shots) he gets 15 and only 8 of those shots are within 30 feet or less... His equation will look like this.... His eldritch Blast will average 10.5 damage and jumps to 13.5 damage with his feats.. (10.5 x 7)+(13.5 x 8) = 181.5 Damage Hrmmmmmmmmm GEEZ!!! Looks pretty fricken comparable to me... and thats accounting that the Sorceror hit with ALL of his spells and every single mob failed their reflex save WHILE the Warlock missed FIVE TIMES!!!! FYI if you included all 6 mobs in the begining of the first encounter and still none made a reflex save the sorceror's damage would increase to. 196, but that would be assuming no saves made and all the scorching rays hit... You are VERY naive....
Kaboth 10-14-05, 12:13 PM	He chose his class and picked his incantations. It was a large party and it was his second character. At 6th level he only had 2 invocations to choose and he chose fly and invisibility, wise choices to keep from being a big greasy goth spot on the dungeon wall, historically speaking though these two are low in the damage dealing department. So he can use a dagger (1d4 vs AC) or Eldritch Blast (3d6 vs touch). There are no other options. Further, his one tactic was NOT particularly effective. Fly and Invis proved to be only average defensively (AOE or grapple were rough), but the 3d6 damage he was dealing was the second worst in the party (just ahead of the defensive fighting Paladin with a 10 Str). The one thing he had on his side was that it was pretty much automatic, which like I said eventually became boring for that very same reason. As far as Flavor - Warlock is the anti-flavor. Its yet another goth evil guy who doesnt want to be evil... yay. What a mediocre wash of non-commitment! Accept your evilness! Or maybe you are just trying to keep from getting skished by the good guys and still get along with the bad guys. Which, by the way is the flip-side of being an accepted-by-none, feared and hated outcast. "Perhaps I should warn you sir before you choose a warlock, that nobody in this dungeon/prison cares about black lipstick, white make-up and slicked back hair, though they are all delighted that your dashing leather cape provides no combat bonuses whatsoever. The only flavor the dungeon cares about is one kind, the flavor of your flesh, and to them a warlock tastes just like chicken. Enjoy your stay." Read my above post.. and all a Sorceror usually is damage output it just tags a different name on each of its damage. If you are going to be closed minded... If I wanted to I could play every single one of my parties characters probably just as effeciently as they could as most people do the... what what what... the same dang thing... imagine that...the fighter is going to swing his weapon.. oh he might charge, bull rush or srping attack...t he archer is going to fire their arrows... the clerics might do a buff or heal.. maybe melee if they run out of spells... The point is flavor is flavor... if you run it down to pur mathematics everyone is about the same damn thing... Hell MY warlock is two levels behind in his warlock levels (he is 2 warrior and 10 warlock) and my damage is consistant and I have been the parties scout on several occasions, saved their butts with D-Door on several occassions.. etc... Yes the wizards and sorcerors damage from their boom spells are impressive in one shot but you forget to add the damage up over time that a warlock does... When you get Eldritch Chain its even better... if they can fireball something I can chain it too... Shesh... I swear sometime....People are REALLY short sighted...
Kaboth 10-14-05, 12:18 PM	Nope. You keep your voice. It is only wildshape where you lose your voice. Actually I suggest you read the spells carefully... Alter Self expressly states what you keep and EVEN makes mention if you need a MOUTH for a breath weapon and dont have it gues what you cant use it... Well if a turtle lacks the the organs to talk with then he cant cast.. There is other things as well that I could break out... Oh yea if they fail their will save on Baleful polymorph they cant even use SLA's or Ex abilities... I beleive it is under somatic components about using limbs to cast spells... there is even a feat to allow monsters that can not perform the complex actions for Somatic compnents so they can cast... etc... You really need to read the book more.
solbergb 10-14-05, 12:46 PM	1. I never said the encounters had to be mythological of 10 or 20 or more, but those situations have happened... but if you have 4 or more encounters and those encounters are long fights thats were the Warlock shines. If not your DM is a wuss and baby's the party and never throws a serious challenge at them. Except that most encounters seem to last about 3 rounds (when they don't, they seem to last a lot longer - but that is usually because the party lacks sufficient offense to deal with a threat in a timely manner. Which is far more likely if one party member isn't contributing much, like a warlock doing 3d6/round. An archer at that level will be doing 20-30 points/round not 10/round...). Yeah, if I have 20 combat rounds a day, a L6 sorcerer is going to be stronger in the early rounds and weaker in the later rounds vs a L6 warlock. But the L6 sorcerer is pretty damn good until all of their L1, L2 and L3 slots are gone (which is 17 rounds) and probably better until all of L2 and L3 slots are gone (10 rounds assuming there is never a round where a L1 spell works just as well)
Kaboth 10-14-05, 12:57 PM	Except that most encounters seem to last about 3 rounds (when they don't, they seem to last a lot longer - but that is usually because the party lacks sufficient offense to deal with a threat in a timely manner. Which is far more likely if one party member isn't contributing much, like a warlock doing 3d6/round. An archer at that level will be doing 20-30 points/round not 10/round...). Yeah, if I have 20 combat rounds a day, a L6 sorcerer is going to be stronger in the early rounds and weaker in the later rounds vs a L6 warlock. But the L6 sorcerer is pretty damn good until all of their L1, L2 and L3 slots are gone (which is 17 rounds) and probably better until all of L2 and L3 slots are gone (10 rounds assuming there is never a round where a L1 spell works just as well) 3 rounds? Where is the challenge in that? I will disagree with that notion entirely. Our encounters typically last bare minimum of 5 rounds and I gaurentee you we have plenty of offensive firepower. Allowing your PC's to unload all spells everyday and with no risk of having to worry about what spells to choose for encounters is no challenge IMHO. If that is how your game seession runs I can not imagine the risk and you rarely (if ever) have a threat of character death. If I am not mistaken the DMG even states that the average encounters for a party should be 4 to 5 encounters in a day and they should last about 5 rounds. I was not comparing to an archer either.. I was comparing to another arcane caster. Besides an archer has to hit against regular AC and if they are doing that much damage they are weak in other areas... such as Will saves... My point being is that Warlocks are not weak as others are trying to make them out to be... They are comparable to any class is my point... I didnt even toss in factoring Maximize SLA or anything else to my comparison...
Mirikon 10-14-05, 01:01 PM	Having played warlocks in several campaigns, I find that I tend to ignore most of the Blast Shape and Eldritch Essence invocations, and load up on the 'other' category. My Invocations/Feats tend to go something like this: 1) Hideous Blow / Point Blank Shot, and either MWP (Scimitar) or Precise Shot 2) Spiderwalk 3) Precise Shot (if i didn't already have it) or EWP (either whips or spiked chain) 4) See the unseen 5) 6) Fell Flight, and switch Spiderwalk for Beguiling Influence / Weapon Finesse if I took the EWP for whips or spiked chain, leadership, or something in character 7) 8) Charm 9) Something in character, or building towards a PrC 10) Walk Unseen, Curse of Despair, Hellrime Blast, or Brimstone Blast 11) Vitrolic Blast 12) Extra Invocation (Voidsense or Flee the Scene), or something in character. 13) Chilling Tentacles or Wall of Perilous Flame 14) 15) Devour Magic / Something in character 16) Utterdark Blast or Word of Changing 17) 18) Eldritch Doom or Path of Shadow / Something in character 19) 20) Retributive Invisibility or Dark Discorporation Of course, I always keep my UMD and Bluff maxed out, with a heavy ammount of points in Intimidate as well. Give my warlock a wand of Cure Moderate, and he's a backup healer. My warlocks tend to be more RP oriented. While they can hold their own in combat, they shine in town. For instance, I've played warlocks at level 5 that already have a bluff check of +18 (8 ranks, +4 Cha, +6 Beguiling Influence). And I've ended some encounters with a lucky intimidate after a nice damage roll on a hideous blow. Warlocks will never be the game breakers that wizards and druids can be, unless the DM's style includes long dungeon crawls, with a BBEG at the end. A badly played warlock will be gimped to all hell. A cleverly played warlock, though, will fill much the same role as a bard in the party. Backup magic slinger, some melee ability, some useful tricks to get around some encounters, and high cha along with social skills makes them a natural leader type. On the other hand, you could play a warlock with crap CHA, and just focus on STR, DEX, and CON, taking only Blast Shape and Eldritch Essence invocations. This is probably the best choice for a warlock in a low to no RP campaign.
Lina_Inverse 10-14-05, 02:08 PM	3 rounds? Where is the challenge in that? I will disagree with that notion entirely. Our encounters typically last bare minimum of 5 rounds and I gaurentee you we have plenty of offensive firepower. Allowing your PC's to unload all spells everyday and with no risk of having to worry about what spells to choose for encounters is no challenge IMHO. If that is how your game seession runs I can not imagine the risk and you rarely (if ever) have a threat of character death. If I am not mistaken the DMG even states that the average encounters for a party should be 4 to 5 encounters in a day and they should last about 5 rounds. You lack offensive firepower, use more druids and save or dies. It states 3-6 encounters of CR=average party level, such an encounter should last 2-3 rounds at most if your party is well designed. i have never seen a creature survive 19 save or dies straight which is what your argueing for 5 round combats. I was not comparing to an archer either.. I was comparing to another arcane caster. Besides an archer has to hit against regular AC and if they are doing that much damage they are weak in other areas... such as Will saves... My point being is that Warlocks are not weak as others are trying to make them out to be... They are comparable to any class is my point... I didnt even toss in factoring Maximize SLA or anything else to my comparison... Warlocks are not arcane casters. There archers, that do low damage. But always hit. Wizard: i have the utility of god and drop save or dies. Archer: I do ranged damaged. Warlock: I do ranged damage with some utility, but a wizard makes it look useless.
Kaboth 10-14-05, 02:20 PM	You lack offensive firepower, use more druids and save or dies. It states 3-6 encounters of CR=average party level, such an encounter should last 2-3 rounds at most if your party is well designed. i have never seen a creature survive 19 save or dies straight which is what your argueing for 5 round combats. By your admission then it should vary from a minimum of 6 to 18 rounds then. We have a party of 8, 3 of which have cohorts. I doubt we lack firepower by any means, maybe our DM gives us more of a challenge than other gaming groups. In addition, I didnt argue 19 save or die spells or abilities, I argued at level 6 and the damage comparison between a 6th level warlock and a 6th level Sorceror. Warlocks are not arcane casters. There archers, that do low damage. But always hit. Wizard: i have the utility of god and drop save or dies. Archer: I do ranged damaged. Warlock: I do ranged damage with some utility, but a wizard makes it look useless. If I built a straight blaster warlock I could easily keep up with the damage of an archer without worry about DR or ER ever. Later on I would not even have to worry about even SR with exception to a few encounters. Granted wizards have much more utility in spell choices but I can easily achieve the utility I am missing through scrolls, wands and staves. I think you seriously under estimate the utility of unlimited flight, unlimted D-Doors, decieve item, etc... At higher levels you even get unlimited greater dispel magic with added benefits. AGAIN... Short sighted nature of people and not looking past the surface of a Warlock in utility or use. I am not saying a Warlock is BETTER than a Archer, Sorceror or Wizard. I never did... I am saying they are easily comparable to those classes dependent on how you build one and could easily hold their own against any of those classes.
xxxsammaelxxx 10-14-05, 02:58 PM	Remove all invocations that have the potential to take somebody out of the fight in one casting, and the Warlock is fine. Leave those abilities there, and he's the most broken thing to ever get published, once he gets those abilities. Gotta agree 100 percent here. Unlimited sv or die spells is game breaking. Put yourself on the other side of the combat, your facing a a group of whatever's and one of them is a creature with the unlimited ability to permanantly remove you from the combat (flesh to stone, Disintigrate) whatever. Every round someone in your party has to save or die. Of course that creature, if intelligent, is gonna target the classes who likely have the weakest saves first. (class determination based on armor/equipment worn and actions in combat) Your Party is gonna go after that character with the sv or die ability FIRST. Full Bore, No holds barred, everything you got to take him down FAST. He is the most immediate threat. And I see no reason for npc's to react to a char with that kind of power differently.
Traevanon 10-14-05, 03:00 PM	Read my above post.. and all a Sorceror usually is damage output it just tags a different name on each of its damage. If you are going to be closed minded... If I wanted to I could play every single one of my parties characters probably just as effeciently as they could as most people do the... what what what... the same dang thing... imagine that...the fighter is going to swing his weapon.. oh he might charge, bull rush or srping attack...t he archer is going to fire their arrows... the clerics might do a buff or heal.. maybe melee if they run out of spells... The point is flavor is flavor... if you run it down to pur mathematics everyone is about the same damn thing... Hell MY warlock is two levels behind in his warlock levels (he is 2 warrior and 10 warlock) and my damage is consistant and I have been the parties scout on several occasions, saved their butts with D-Door on several occassions.. etc... Yes the wizards and sorcerors damage from their boom spells are impressive in one shot but you forget to add the damage up over time that a warlock does... When you get Eldritch Chain its even better... if they can fireball something I can chain it too... Shesh... I swear sometime....People are REALLY short sighted... But the Fighter, Sorcerer and Archer all have one thing in common, they might miss. So you have to be there to find out, are they going to miss, crit, will the thing save against my fireball, does it have resistance? With a warlock its "Rob its your initiative again" "Okay I do 11 damage" "Okay on to Jenny" At least its fast, but eventually it gets old, not to the DM who just kinda learns to ignore the annoying bit of damage his creatures get hit with each round but to the player who always hits for almost always the same damage and almost never gets hit in return. Regarding having two incantations, I'm just remembering back a few months at this point and I've never looked all THAT closely at the Warlock and what they get. Ours had Invis and Fly as previously mentioned and D-Door. Though he played it on through to probably 8th level before moving to another town. I'm not saying that a Warlock cant be played differently. I'm just putting forth my personal experience regarding the original topic of this thread. "Are Warlocks Too Powerful". Because in my experience actual play examples are always better than mathematical examinations.
xxxsammaelxxx 10-14-05, 03:01 PM	DM's defense vs sv or die spells http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=182
Kaboth 10-14-05, 03:11 PM	But the Fighter, Sorcerer and Archer all have one thing in common, they might miss. So you have to be there to find out, are they going to miss, crit, will the thing save against my fireball, does it have resistance? With a warlock its "Rob its your initiative again" "Okay I do 11 damage" "Okay on to Jenny" At least its fast, but eventually it gets old, not to the DM who just kinda learns to ignore the annoying bit of damage his creatures get hit with each round but to the player who always hits for almost always the same damage and almost never gets hit in return. Regarding having two incantations, I'm just remembering back a few months at this point and I've never looked all THAT closely at the Warlock and what they get. Ours had Invis and Fly as previously mentioned and D-Door. Though he played it on through to probably 8th level before moving to another town. I'm not saying that a Warlock cant be played differently. I'm just putting forth my personal experience regarding the original topic of this thread. "Are Warlocks Too Powerful". Because in my experience actual play examples are always better than mathematical examinations. A Warlock CAN miss, trust me I know... Granted they wont miss often... Again like I said, they are not too powerful... and if they are played just on the surface without any thought to how they can help or do what then yes they can be bland and boring just the same with any class... Just as much as a wizard or Sorc only taking offensive spells ever and seeing how much damage they can do... Any class can be boring dependent on the player...
Kaboth 10-14-05, 03:14 PM	DM's defense vs sv or die spells http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=182 I didnt read his link, but there are many defenses to save or die spells. Some mobs out there have disentigrate at will (Beholder comes to mind)... Not to mention if you can have a warlock in the party with Word of Change what is to say the party does not come across an opponent force consisting of one warlock with the same power. As my DM ruled once upon a time... Just because the party will use a power doesnt mean the DM can not use it also.
xxxsammaelxxx 10-14-05, 03:26 PM	Well, my point i was trying to make is actually more along the lines of my first post. Party or DM, PC or NPC, If a group is facing another Group and one person has an unlimited sv or die ability, You are likely gonna concentrate on taking that person down hard and fast. In the strip, notice how the dragon is ignoring the archer and the halfling ranger to focus on the real threat. My NPC's would do the same. The survivability of a character with unlimited sv or die spells is grim, because he would likely be the first target in any hi level encounter due to level of threat.
Worguron 10-14-05, 03:37 PM	As it has been stated above, at the level that the Warlock gets his only save-or-die type invocation, a Sorceror could effectively use their save or die spells during combat almost as much. Between Disintegrate, Baleful Polymorph, Flesh to Stone, and other various Wizard/Sorceror save or dies, other Arcane Casters have a much better chance to find a spell that an enemy won't save against. Warlocks have one such ability, and unless they have some major Charisma, it won't be amazingly effective.
solbergb 10-14-05, 03:37 PM	But the Fighter, Sorcerer and Archer all have one thing in common, they might miss. . Sorcerers don't really miss any more often than Warlocks do. Magic missile is what they use on hard-to-hit targets, which more than compensates for the slightly lower BAB. As for archers....given that I do the damage with one arrow at APL6 that a warlock does with his bolt, I can miss two out of three times and still be good to go. The damage doesn't quite scale as fast per shot as the bolt does, but the archer's extra shots and (usually) rapidly rising attack mod due to feats and BAB and GMW tend to more than compensate. Seriously. Level/2xd6 with a touch attack and 3/4 BAB in no way keeps up with ordinary physical damage dealers, at any level (at level 1-2 they're already behind Tordek doing 1d10+2 or Kruskin doing d12+7 and it goes downhill from there...
Kaboth 10-14-05, 03:40 PM	Well, my point i was trying to make is actually more along the lines of my first post. Party or DM, PC or NPC, If a group is facing another Group and one person has an unlimited sv or die ability, You are likely gonna concentrate on taking that person down hard and fast. In the strip, notice how the dragon is ignoring the archer and the halfling ranger to focus on the real threat. My NPC's would do the same. The survivability of a character with unlimited sv or die spells is grim, because he would likely be the first target in any hi level encounter due to level of threat. Well thats assuming the Warlock communicates that he has unlimited save or die spells or you allow everyone and everything to know every class or monster and how they work and what their weaknesses are. If you allow your NPC's to know everything then you should allow your PC's to know everything. However, if you make a spellcraft check and then a knowledge arcana check with a sufficient roll that is successful that is different as well. I would never let my players PC's arbitrarily know information about a monster simply just because the players do.
solbergb 10-14-05, 03:41 PM	Yeah...in that "order of the stick" cartoon, the dragon notices he's undergoing suggestion each round and says "There's one thing you forgot in that analysis....your hitpoint total" and then eats the wizard. A 1 in 20 save/or/die is generally not a good option unless you have nothing better to do. Even for a warlock, who could be shooting that dragon for 6d6 or so every round, which stacks with the damage everybody else is doing. His contribution to the battle is larger if he does a steady 20pts/round. 5 rounds later he's done 100 points 100% of the time, contrasted with a roughly 23% chance of a nat 1 coming up in 5 consecutive 1 in 20 chances. It takes 13-14 tries to get a 50% chance of a nat 1 coming up, and you can't predict when it will happen.
Puca 10-14-05, 04:22 PM	He chose his class and picked his incantations. It was a large party and it was his second character. At 6th level he only had 2 invocations to choose and he chose fly and invisibility, wise choices to keep from being a big greasy goth spot on the dungeon wall, historically speaking though these two are low in the damage dealing department. So he can use a dagger (1d4 vs AC) or Eldritch Blast (3d6 vs touch). There are no other options… Regarding having two incantations, I'm just remembering back a few months at this point and I've never looked all THAT closely at the Warlock and what they get. Ours had Invis and Fly as previously mentioned and D-Door. Though he played it on through to probably 8th level before moving to another town. So, he did have other options, you just dont remember them. At sixth-level, he has, Im trying to remember for sure, at least 3 least and two? lesser invocations. Thats not bad. Better than 2. Look at the number available and how many options he has with 5 to chose.Further, his one tactic was NOT particularly effective. Fly and Invis proved to be only average defensively (AOE or grapple were rough), but the 3d6 damage he was dealing was the second worst in the party (just ahead of the defensive fighting Paladin with a 10 Str). The one thing he had on his side was that it was pretty much automatic, which like I said eventually became boring for that very same reason.I never said it was effective. In fact, I was sort of blaming you. If he is flying around every combat, invisible, hitting everything on the ground and never getting attacked, you are being way too simple and predictable as a DM. Nothing inside with low ceilings? No opponents who can fly themselves? No one with a decent touch AC? No archers who can see invisible? Thats a second-level spell? If every encounter allows for the same tactics, then it is pretty hard to blame someone for using the same tactics. But the Fighter, Sorcerer and Archer all have one thing in common, they might miss. So you have to be there to find out, are they going to miss, crit, will the thing save against my fireball, does it have resistance?Like I said, if every creature is huge, land-bound, and has a dex of 6, then yes he can probably count on hitting every time. Send him up against a number of small, quick rogues or monks and that isnt going to happen. And SR affects him too. A creature with a high enough one or even access to a Globe of Invulnerability is going to send your warlock hunting for that crossbow he never thought hed need. "Perhaps I should warn you sir before you choose a warlock, that nobody in this dungeon/prison cares about black lipstick, white make-up and slicked back hair, though they are all delighted that your dashing leather cape provides no combat bonuses whatsoever.Perhaps I should warn you. Im old enough that gothic still means a type of architecture popular in the late medieval period. In my day, the guys wandering the halls with perpetual scowls had Doc Martin knock-offs spray-painted to match their mohawks and leather jackets with the anarchy sign and “Sex Pistols” written on them in white paint. A lot less eye-makeup, but the same feeling that being born was a violation of their rights. (Depressed teen-agers, how loathsome. What the hell do you have to be depressed about?) Honestly though, do you think that the sorcerer or the fighter have more built-in flavor than the warlock? Seriously, a dark guy who doesnt want to be evil is hardly the only way to play them; it isnt even the only way I mentioned.
Nephlite 10-14-05, 04:32 PM	The Duel Between the Fighter and the Warlock: Fighter: Okay, we've agreed that it will be a fair fight, no spells, and only 1 weapon. Warlock: That's right no spells*, and only 1 weapon*, and since you can clearly see i'v only got a light mace, and you've got a great sword, you've aggreed to wear this Padded armor -5 Missle Attracter, it will be a fair fight, begin. Um, furst no reason to cheat: the Warlock doesn't need it. In fact, if the Fightwr has Dexterity 22: your armor is equal or betterthan Full plate with no curse on it. Full plate +1 Dex: Padded +6 Dex -5 from ranged.=same value from the Blasts. Fighter swings his sword only to have it shattered, when the Warlock used Baleful utterance. Warlock gets free attack (since Fighter lost his sword): Invokes Darkness (Previously casted Devils sight) Fighter takes a swing at warlock with his fists and misses, Warlock gains attack of oppertunity and hits fighter with light mace for 6 damage Warlock. Warlock stikes again, but misses, Fighter somehow hits warlock, but since warlock has damage reduction his puny fists do nothing, warlock gains attack of oppertunity hits fighter for maximum critical damage and kills fighter. Warlock wins the fair fight by cheating. Sure he could win a fight by cheating : but he lied. I liked the Shatter idea. Why is the Warlock not shooting him? It isn't a spell :cool:
Mandarbgrim 10-14-05, 04:49 PM	I didn't find it overpowering when I played one, or someone played one in the eberron game I was running. However, both of those examples was under 5th level. The Warlock does seem a bit powerful around levels 1-3...since enemies with armor are common then. His damage output isn't as good as other classes, and he still seems hurt a lot if he neglects to take Precise Shot and the like..which uses up his most valuable resource: Feats. The DM I was playing under was really annoyed with the Warlock, however. His dungeon crawl had dozens of encounters per day..so obviously the Warlock seemed better off than the casters. He also semed to have trouble with the Spiderclimbing on the ceiling and ignoring pits, traps, and similiar such with that ability. Hilariously enough, his biggest gripe was that the Warlock was overpowered because it made Spellfire broken..but he blamed that on the Warlock instead of the "Perfectly legitimate" feat for his homebrew campaign. I personally have a major gripe with the Warlocks 2 Skill points per level. If you compare his number of class skills to other classes he should have atleast 4 skill points. And Warlocks are going to have to put ranks into UMD and Concentration to remain viable as characters..so... he seemed seriously shortchanged in the skill department. But this is my same annoyance with the Sorcerer, as well.
Lina_Inverse 10-14-05, 05:24 PM	By your admission then it should vary from a minimum of 6 to 18 rounds then. We have a party of 8, 3 of which have cohorts. I doubt we lack firepower by any means, maybe our DM gives us more of a challenge than other gaming groups. In addition, I didnt argue 19 save or die spells or abilities, I argued at level 6 and the damage comparison between a 6th level warlock and a 6th level Sorceror. A sorcerer shouldnt be doing damage, ever. If your just gonna nuke use a god darn warmage. If I built a straight blaster warlock I could easily keep up with the damage of an archer without worry about DR or ER ever. Later on I would not even have to worry about even SR with exception to a few encounters. Granted wizards have much more utility in spell choices but I can easily achieve the utility I am missing through scrolls, wands and staves. I think you seriously under estimate the utility of unlimited flight, unlimted D-Doors, decieve item, etc... At higher levels you even get unlimited greater dispel magic with added benefits. AGAIN... Short sighted nature of people and not looking past the surface of a Warlock in utility or use. I am not saying a Warlock is BETTER than a Archer, Sorceror or Wizard. I never did... I am saying they are easily comparable to those classes dependent on how you build one and could easily hold their own against any of those classes. Teleport? Fabricate+Wall of Iron? that is utility. the wizard -can- do everything you can do albeit not as often. however you will never need that many uses of spells. A warlock cannot fill the arcanist slot, so please compare him to archers and warmages with -some- artilery thats all im saying.
Kaboth 10-14-05, 05:37 PM	A sorcerer shouldnt be doing damage, ever. If your just gonna nuke use a god darn warmage. Sorceror shouldnt do damage? What drugs are you on and can I get some? Teleport? Fabricate+Wall of Iron? that is utility. the wizard -can- do everything you can do albeit not as often. however you will never need that many uses of spells. A warlock cannot fill the arcanist slot, so please compare him to archers and warmages with -some- artilery thats all im saying. Man your DM is NICE!!!! He never challenges or stretches your limits in an adventure? Man that must be nice to never have to worry about running out of spells or having that many D-Doors prepared in a day to bypass traps or trenches to shuttle characters too... Oh BTW your wizard and War Mage can use divine scrolls or divine magic items if your party's healer is down and unable to cast to heal the fighter as a back up? We could bounce back and forth about what the deal is... I could blow apart an equal level warmage any day of the week with my character. Sorceror on the other hand, might cause me problems.
Lina_Inverse 10-14-05, 06:01 PM	Sorceror shouldnt do damage? What drugs are you on and can I get some? The ones called knowing how the game functions. If a caster is blasting he is wasteing his actions. Man your DM is NICE!!!! He never challenges or stretches your limits in an adventure? Man that must be nice to never have to worry about running out of spells or having that many D-Doors prepared in a day to bypass traps or trenches to shuttle characters too... Oh BTW your wizard and War Mage can use divine scrolls or divine magic items if your party's healer is down and unable to cast to heal the fighter as a back up? I am the GM. and im the harshest gm youll ever meet. You will never fill the arcanist role as a warmage and thats a fact. by the time you have dimension door im requireing 3+ teleports per adventure. I dont make adventures to feature charecters, i make them to be hard. i will assume you have ever spell a caster of your level can have at all times. I follow the guidelines strictly, there are 3-6 encounters a day, if your smart and conserve you should have enough spells, if not well you die. It seems to me your dm is trying to make you look good. instead of challenge you. In my game a warlock takeing up the arcanist slot will end up with a dead party. A warlock in the ranged damage roll may or may not be viable.
Kaboth 10-14-05, 06:15 PM	A warlock can create an item of teleport... there it is your problem solved... oh he can make divine items too!! Oh there is another problem solved... You need a certain class to use this one item and you dont have the class to use it... BLAM warlock can use it...Doesnt matter what it is... So you are saying that a sorceror should never do damage spells and should be nothing but a utility caster?? You are the harshest DM???? How can you be THE harshest if you follow the encounter rules perfectly? We cant even USE teleport the same way in our campaign... Using teleport can only be used on gates and that is only to like 4 cities!!! We have to travel the long way everywhere.... Hows that for harsh? Want to talk harsh... we are about level 13 and the average encounter level suggests for a ONE 14th level mob... We had to fight a level 20 mob... granted..there was a couple of deaths... but we did persevere.... BTW the rules are also for a party of 3 to 4 characters... you do have to jack it up for more characters.... You downplay warlocks in your campaign.... thats fine.. if that was the case I would shine in any setting even in yours! Unless you were completely biased against a warlock and my playing then there is nothing I could ever do... How is this for Harsh... We just had a fight that took 6 weeks to complete, it was ne continous battle that lasted I would have to say 200 rounds from start to finishs with about maybe at best 2 to 3 rounds recovery time about 2 times...Yea and the last encounter was with a ragewalker and a war troll...
Lina_Inverse 10-14-05, 06:27 PM	A warlock can create an item of teleport... there it is your problem solved... oh he can make divine items too!! Oh there is another problem solved... You need a certain class to use this one item and you dont have the class to use it... BLAM warlock can use it...Doesnt matter what it is... So you are saying that a sorceror should never do damage spells and should be nothing but a utility caster?? You spend a day makeing the scroll of teleport. sadly the ceiling falls on you in 10 minutes and you die. Dont even claim to be a good item crafter, artifciers do it 10x better. You are the harshest DM???? How can you be THE harshest if you follow the encounter rules perfectly? We cant even USE teleport the same way in our campaign... Using teleport can only be used on gates and that is only to like 4 cities!!! We have to travel the long way everywhere.... Hows that for harsh? Want to talk harsh... we are about level 13 and the average encounter level suggests for a ONE 14th level mob... We had to fight a level 20 mob... granted..there was a couple of deaths... but we did persevere.... BTW the rules are also for a party of 3 to 4 characters... you do have to jack it up for more characters.... Your gm has altered the rules of teleport, your house rules have no place in a disscussion for the rules of normal D&D. The fact you have an 8 man party says you should be playing 2 games. You downplay warlocks in your campaign.... thats fine.. if that was the case I would shine in any setting even in yours! Unless you were completely biased against a warlock and my playing then there is nothing I could ever do... Im not biased, i follow the rules and attempt to challenge my pcs within them. By the rules there are 3-6 encounters per day. Each which will prolly last no more than 4 rounds. 24 uses of your abilitys per day at MOST. How is this for Harsh... We just had a fight that took 6 weeks to complete, it was ne continous battle that lasted I would have to say 200 rounds from start to finishs with about maybe at best 2 to 3 rounds recovery time about 2 times...Yea and the last encounter was with a ragewalker and a war troll... No enemy can last 200 rounds against a good party. That isnt harsh, its babying. if after 10 rounds the party isnt dead something is wrong.
Vaelan 10-14-05, 06:29 PM	You will never fill the arcanist role as a warmage and thats a fact. by the time you have dimension door im requireing 3+ teleports per adventure. Warmages don't get Dimension Door. Ever. If they did get Dimension Door, they would get it at level 8. Since teleport is a fifth-level spell, your claim that you require 3+ teleports per adventure isn't at all believable, assuming you do not make teleportation items or services ridiculously easy to obtain. Such claims do not help your credibility when you profess to possess a greater understanding of how the game functions than others. A sorcerer shouldnt be doing damage, ever. If your just gonna nuke use a god darn warmage. So there is no middle ground between being able to deal damage and forsaking everything but dealing damage? :rolleyes: Sorcerers should be doing whatever is appropriate to the situation within the capabilities of their Spells Known. Sometimes this is damage, so I'm afraid your generality, along with essentially every generality ever made, is incorrect. The only thing you said that is at all relevant to the thread and not pure nonsense is that Warlocks aren't arcanists, which nobody is arguing.
Kaboth 10-14-05, 06:47 PM	You spend a day makeing the scroll of teleport. sadly the ceiling falls on you in 10 minutes and you die. Dont even claim to be a good item crafter, artifciers do it 10x better. Ummm who said it had to be a scroll... Ever hear of boots of teleportation? Yea they do it better but they dont nearly blast as much as I can nor have the HP or AC a warlock can have... NOR have the save bonuses a warlock have (I get a +7 bonus to whatever save I choose at anytime for a standard action)...Nor have the DR I have..Not sure if artificer's get the decieve item ability where they can use ANY magic.. they might.... Your gm has altered the rules of teleport, your house rules have no place in a disscussion for the rules of normal D&D. The fact you have an 8 man party says you should be playing 2 games. Where does it state the people who play DnD HAVE to be 4 persons or less? In addition, you were claiming to be THE harshest DM and as such it is within your power to make changes to any game as you so choose. In fact they even recommend that you do to make the game distinctly yours. So I do not see where house rules have no discussion since you ARE "the harshest DM ever". Im not biased, i follow the rules and attempt to challenge my pcs within them. By the rules there are 3-6 encounters per day. Each which will prolly last no more than 4 rounds.24 uses of your abilitys per day at MOST. So folowing the rules is harsh??? Harsh DM's push the rules and bend them or make house rules or new opponents to fight them... According to the rules fighting a party of clones (meaning an exact opposite of your party) is not supported. A harsh DM would make that happen. Out of 24 uses at my level I would do a bare minimum damage of 30 per blast (baring crits and/or eldritch chain) and probably not miss. Thats 720 damage on Average for me and I am not even built for sheer blasting.. Tack on Quicken SLA and Maximize that really ups the damage. I notice you corrected yourself on the rules, was wondering if you would catch that. so my original atypical AVERAGE assesment of 20 rounds was within the rules now? No enemy can last 200 rounds against a good party. That isnt harsh, its babying. if after 10 rounds the party isnt dead something is wrong. Who said it was ONE opponent??? It was a continous fight through some halls, down some stairs, in a arena, up a ladder, through some fire giant training rooms, through some fire giant barracks, down a cavern and then about 30 trolls and the final fight was against a rage walker and a war troll... Our DM was Babying us? We were using wands, staves, potions in the end and in the end two characters died...If thats babying... okay....
solbergb 10-14-05, 06:54 PM	The ones called knowing how the game functions. If a caster is blasting he is wasteing his actions. Not if by blasting he causes opponents to go away. Part of playing a good caster is knowing when direct damage will eliminate one or more opponents and when it won't. At low levels, it is usually "it will' at higher levels it is usually "it won't" but knowing when to use it is a key part of a good caster. All casters need a little direct damage, so they can finish off badly wounded enemies or sweep away a room full of things with high offense but low hitpoints (apprentice arcanists with scrolls of glitterdust in sufficient quantity to make you roll a 1, massed magic missiles against everyone but the mage, gaze-weapon monsters, certain archer builds). Having ONLY direct damage isn't a great way to be. Even Warmage has more options than that. This is the rap on the warlock really. Not only is his default thing direct damage, it isn't even especially effective direct damage. It is a magic missile that can miss.
solbergb 10-14-05, 06:58 PM	The You will never fill the arcanist role as a warmage and thats a fact. This is true. If only the warmage had more skill points, he COULD do the scout/rogue role pretty well. He's got a lot of decent stealth and mobility buffs and rogues aren't expected to always do a lot of damage...the save/die effects could simulate the sneak attack pretty well - against some opponents you own, against others, you suck. As written, I'd be inclined to do a warlock as a high int/dex/cha character and focus on social skills, UMD and scouting abilities with one or two "stopper" invocations preferably against different saves. Shatter at a minimum - it serves as a good trap disabler. Then claim the rogue role at the table. Be kind of a "magic rogue" the same way a warmage is a "magic archer". Neither class can fill the arcanist role.
KGodwin 10-14-05, 07:15 PM	I'd say the power of any class is based on the creativity of the DM. If played purely RAW, any well min/maxed group is overpowered. Warlocks are just easier for most people to min/max, due to their lack of flexibility in options. They are balanced by the following: 1) Their class stigma (Have the warlock run out of town by local wizards, clerics, commoners. Unlike other classes, this can happen with some frequency and without logical reason) 2) Limited flexibility (They cannot do everything a Wizard or Sorceror can, until level 12.) That said, I don't like Warlocks as PCs because they tend towards being boring rather than well-played.
Kaboth 10-14-05, 07:28 PM	Just an FYI on what my warlock can do at 13th level ECL... He is 2 Fighter/11 Warlock (I have a few magic items too). I usually don't have a problem blasting within 30 feet. +19 to hit against touch AC, yes I CAN miss but not often Edlritch Chain upto 3 targets. Vitriloc Blast for 8d6+3 (average 31 damage) and 2d6 (average 7) extra damage for 2 rounds. If its chained the other two targets would take half that damage. That would be on average to 3 targets for 3 rounds would be 107 to the primary target and 53 to the other two targets. No Save and No SR, only Acid Resistance would help... while that can happen it wont happen often... I fly at 90 feet with perfect maneurvablity, D-Door at will, +7 to any save (usually set on Willsaves as I have deathward), ER 5 Acid/Elec, DR 5/Cold Iron, AC 30, 100 HP, See Invis, Dark Vision 60 feet, Evasion, and level 11 Cohort that is 6 Favored Soul/3 Divine Oracle/1 Contemplative that has Greater Status on me for heals and gives me Energy Immunity or Energy Resistance (ER30) and many other things she can cast on me. I have other things like a shield with medium fort (75% to resist crits or sneak attacks, etc)...Not to mention any other buffs my chort cast such as Elation and/or Recitation, etc....
Kaboth 10-14-05, 07:30 PM	I'd say the power of any class is based on the creativity of the DM. If played purely RAW, any well min/maxed group is overpowered. Warlocks are just easier for most people to min/max, due to their lack of flexibility in options. They are balanced by the following: 1) Their class stigma (Have the warlock run out of town by local wizards, clerics, commoners. Unlike other classes, this can happen with some frequency and without logical reason) 2) Limited flexibility (They cannot do everything a Wizard or Sorceror can, until level 12.) That said, I don't like Warlocks as PCs because they tend towards being boring rather than well-played. No they cant create everything until level 12, the can start using decieve item at level 4....
TheUnknownZombie 10-14-05, 08:03 PM	I've played a couple of Warlocks in my time, and if you try to use them like full-arcane casters or archers, you're not doing it right. ;) They're perfect for battlefield control, especially positioning your own team. There's an enemy caster hiding behind a small horde? A Flee-The-Scene gets the Monk & Fighter over there to full-attack him on the first round. Too many foes? Chilling Tentacles and Walls Of Gloom/Fire (I forget the name) invocations carve the playing field into manageable chunks. Give them any scroll, wand or the like & they'll use it easily (normally without a single roll). At early-mid levels, they can always have Dispel Magic at hand (although their Greater DispelMagic is unfortunately limited to touch) The way I played them, Eldritch Blast was something to do when everyone was in their ideal position and you didn't have any invocations/wands/scrolls to perfectly match the situation. It's a great thing to fall back on, but after the first few levels, it's not a very effective weapon (without burning feats and invocations on it). They're an alternative 5th character. They support all the others and make a perfect change from the Bard. They're short on skills though - you'll want to max out Concentration & UMD, followed by Spellcraft & the social skills.
Nephlite 10-14-05, 08:38 PM	They are balanced by the following: 1) Their class stigma (Have the warlock run out of town by local wizards, clerics, commoners. Unlike other classes, this can happen with some frequency and without logical reason) Why would a wizard care? If it is because they are elistist: aren't sorcerors run off? Commoners: only if a Clergy/Adept has told them to beware probably. Clerics: Based on God of lack thereof. In fact, a Warlock is just as likely as other class to worship a god so maybe Cleric shouldn't mind. If it is illogical than it probably shouldn't happen :D That said, I don't like Warlocks as PCs because they tend towards being boring rather than well-played. Classes don't create excitement: characters do. They help you make the character though.
KGodwin 10-14-05, 08:38 PM	No they cant create everything until level 12, the can start using decieve item at level 4.... Once again, for those who do not understand the word everything: They cannot do everything a Wizard or Sorceror can, until level 12. He does not have access to every single option an arcanist has until level 12. Those two sentences are identical in terms of meaning in their context...
KGodwin 10-14-05, 08:50 PM	Why would a wizard care? If it is because they are elistist: aren't sorcerors run off? Commoners: only if a Clergy/Adept has told them to beware probably. Clerics: Based on God of lack thereof. In fact, a Warlock is just as likely as other class to worship a god so maybe Cleric shouldn't mind. If it is illogical than it probably shouldn't happen :D 'Warlocks are widely feared and misunderstood.' That to me means running people out of villages/towns/cities if it becomes obvious that he/she is a Warlock. As far as I can recall, everything else that is widely feared is monsters and evil characters and even then it is not expressly stated. Classes don't create excitement: characters do. They help you make the character though. That said, I don't like Warlocks as PCs because they tend towards being boring rather than well-played. I'll expand that too: I don't like Warlocks as PCs because the players tend to RP them with less skill than other classes. At least that is true in my experience, and I rather DM for people who are not the silent brooding warlock in the corner that does little more than fight. Yet the same players tend to play a dwarven fighter or elven cleric better for whatever reason. It has happened to me enough it is worth screening that class unless the person gives a *good* concept for it. So far, I've had 0 of those for a Warlock, Warmage, and about 4-5 other classes. --- Yes, I am bored at the moment.
Kaboth 10-14-05, 08:54 PM	Once again, for those who do not understand the word everything: He does not have access to every single option an arcanist has until level 12. Those two sentences are identical in terms of meaning in their context... Well............. Technically they could still take the craft skills and use scrolls or a divine or aracane caster to create items...But then again and arcanist can not create divine items on their own... EVER...
SebastianHero 10-14-05, 09:09 PM	I've played a warlock from level 2 to 12, and TheUnknownZombie's experience pretty much mirrors my own. The examples are so right-on. That said, I took Charm, Beguiling Influence and 1 level of Mindbender (telepathy 100 ft.) I have really enjoyed the role-playing shenanigans that come with these powers. (We DO do role-playing, right?) I also took 2 flaws, and playing in Eberron I selected Action Surge and Sudden Maximize feats as early as possible. These have made the eldritch blasts more effective. I don't level the place like our mage, and there are times when my warlock felt behind (at 5th level and 9th level, when the wizard gained 3rd level and 5th level spells, respectively - boy did I feel underpowered without a Fireball or Teleport in my daily repetoire.) I still long for regular teleports. When I take a craft feat to go with the Imbue Item ability, we'll fix that! Other times: a series of Dimension Doors to capture an escaping NPC, two maximized eldritch blasts in one round, a half-dozen successive Dispel Magics on a serious of traps, Charm against a bunch of taxi drivers, guards and other flunkies over a whole day as we maneuvered through Sharn looking for help, information, etc. The ability to do something an unlimited number of times makes a huge difference. A lot of times, I found the warlock and mage complement each other. Given a scrolls or two - or even no scrolls - we could plan interesting strategizes that synergized his and my abilities. Some other thoughts. Is the warlock nothing more than a magic-based archer. That's an interesting metaphor to keep in mind but it's not strictly true. I would agree, "do avoid melee" unless that's your build. When we lost our mage for a while, my warlock filled in just fine. True, it wasn't quite the same. We could have done better with his range of options. But in practice, a well-played warlock CAN fill in as moderately good arcane spellcaster. I've seen this firsthand. And is the warlock boring? That's a very strong "No." If the game I'm playing is how to beat the DnD game system, maybe. If I'm playing inside the world, then it's not. It's not just about what you have, it's also about how you use it. I suspect the unlimited nature of warlock's powers allow me to play him in a very confident way, even if that means Flee the Scene is my best option, because I know it is ALWAYS my option (except unusual situations such as anti-magic fields.) Perhaps a metaphor to the real world is always having friends, or always having money, but nothing else. So you're not flexible in a strict sense of having 100 different personal skills, but in practice you can be very flexible because friends or money (NPCs or magic items) can work for you if you know how to use them. And yes, my character has been negatively ID'd as "a warlock" at least once I can recall; and a warforged warlock is hardly a welcome sight in Eberron! Honestly, I think the warlock is pretty balanced for the levels I've played at, in the range of environments (urban, wilderness, dungeon, etc) that we've played in. I am somewhat skeptical that warlocks are weaker at higher levels, but experience may prove me wrong.
KGodwin 10-14-05, 09:10 PM	Well............. Technically they could still take the craft skills and use scrolls or a divine or aracane caster to create items...But then again and arcanist can not create divine items on their own... EVER... Until level 12, he does not have access to everything an arcanist can do. That is factually true. The warlock can do things an arcanist can't before level 12, hence the innate RP balance of being widely feared. That statement has no affect or relation to the previous one. Nothing I said disagreed with the fact that the Warlock can do things an arcanist can't do. Which means what you are really disagreing with is the fact I said limited flexibility, but that was clarified to what I meant in () which is a pretty normal way of expressing something. So... If what you are really griping about is limited flexibility... The inability to create items (unless you have a sufficent supply to never need to spend that bit of XP for the items, which should never happen in my opnion) is a limitation on it's flexibility. In the future, the following statement should be the one that is after it. No they cant create everything until level 12, the can start using decieve item at level 4.... No, warlocks cannot create everything until level 12, but I think they are still more flexible that arcane spellcasters once the Warlock can use his decieve item ability. It would saved a great deal of typing if you had done it that way.
Kaboth 10-14-05, 09:44 PM	Sorry I was busy, yes you are right, I should have made and expressed my point in a more clear fashion that would expressely define myself even to the simplest of minds. (not saying your mind is simple)... Techncially even an arcanist can not create EVERYTHING until level 12 either. A warlock can emulate and duplicate arcanist and divine spells with scrolls or items at level 4. My ultimate point being is the fact that warlocks are a lot more flexable and deeper in thought in gameplay than most realize. If all they do is fly around and blast and try not to utuilize their other class abilities then they lose half the flavor of the class. My warlock will not nor will he ever have a craft feat so I will in effect loose some of this aspect of my class. Feats are a hard choice and admittedly I have made some unwise choices. If I could I would trade a couple of feats.
KGodwin 10-14-05, 09:55 PM	Sorry I was busy, yes you are right, I should have made and expressed my point in a more clear fashion that would expressely define myself even to the simplest of minds. (not saying your mind is simple)... Techncially even an arcanist can not create EVERYTHING until level 12 either. A warlock can emulate and duplicate arcanist and divine spells with scrolls or items at level 4. My ultimate point being is the fact that warlocks are a lot more flexable and deeper in thought in gameplay than most realize. If all they do is fly around and blast and try not to utuilize their other class abilities then they lose half the flavor of the class. My warlock will not nor will he ever have a craft feat so I will in effect loose some of this aspect of my class. Feats are a hard choice and admittedly I have made some unwise choices. If I could I would trade a couple of feats. And my point is, without those early item creation feats, the warlock is less flexible until level 12. Anyway, I am forgetting about this thread now. =0
Dr. Awkward 10-14-05, 10:11 PM	As it has been stated above, at the level that the Warlock gets his only save-or-die type invocation, a Sorceror could effectively use their save or die spells during combat almost as much. Between Disintegrate, Baleful Polymorph, Flesh to Stone, and other various Wizard/Sorceror save or dies, other Arcane Casters have a much better chance to find a spell that an enemy won't save against. Warlocks have one such ability, and unless they have some major Charisma, it won't be amazingly effective. Yeah, and who do the enemies aim for first in any fight? The guy who looks like a wizard or sorcerer. It's the same deal here. The price you pay for being able to snuff out lives with a word is that everyone's going to want to stick a sword in your throat before you can get the word out. At least the warlock has slightly better HP than a sorcerer, and usually a better AC. But they're still going to try to take him down quick (perhaps with their own save-or-die spells) once they figure out he's trying to turn them all into squirrels.
Dr. Awkward 10-14-05, 10:17 PM	Depressed teen-agers, how loathsome. What the hell do you have to be depressed about? I put it down to two things: 1. Hormone changes not having quite worked themselves out just yet. 2. Suddenly becoming aware of how godawful and daft the adult world is at the same time you become aware of how long you have left before you'll graduate high school and be thrust into it with no recourse (unless you go to college, in which case you spend a few years drinking to forget what you went to college to avoid having to face). :D
Dr. Awkward 10-14-05, 10:33 PM	Until level 12, he does not have access to everything an arcanist can do. That is factually true. The warlock can do things an arcanist can't before level 12, hence the innate RP balance of being widely feared. Flavour text is not intended as a mechanical balancing factor. "RP balance" does not exist in the RAW, because it is not a rule that the warlock is feared, and even if it were, there is no quantification of how often this occurs, to what extent, etc. A penalty to Cha-based skills would be a balancing factor, but flavour text is not.
Arcanix 10-14-05, 10:58 PM	Just a few a little ideas that might give a little more power to the warlock. I'm referring to pages 71-73 in the Complete Arcane; which gives tells how existing and new feats benefit those using spell-like abilities and invocations (which are also per their description spell-like abilites). First of all a ranged touch attack is never anything to sneeze at; I've played traditional casters for some time, and have much better luck hitting with a touch spell with no save than using a save for half effect/damage spell. Secondly, any of the spell-like ability feats in the Complete Arcane or on page 303-304 of the monster manual grant the effects of most of the better metamagic feats; but without having to take a hit in max spell level used as traditional casters do; quicken spell-like and maximize spell-like ability in particular are useful. Not to mention; if a traditional caster can use a quicken/maxed spell and a maxed spell in the same round; there's no reason a warlock can't do the same with any combition of his eldritch blasts or invocations. There are also any number of eldritch essence invocations and blast shape invocations that can be combined with devestating effect; particularily considering that the effects of both are in addition to each and every one of the unlimited usage standard eldritch blasts per day. Those that add damage do so in addition to standard damage; and a number of those that don't do extra damage have an impact on making the target more vulnerable to future blasts by in many cases lower the targets effective AC even further (which is already up against a ranged touch attack and the warlock's pretty decent base attack bonus). Additionally; just as a standard spell can be modified by any number of metamagic feats (as long as the caster can still cast it) and be treated as one spell; so to each essence and blast shape modified blast have the ability to be modified as many spell-like modifying feats as the caster has to bear and count as one use. I'd say that three consecutive rounds of an empowered utterdark blast followed by a quickened, maximized utterdark blast; with ranged touch AC to hit and no save to reduce the damage itself, cast by a warlock with ability focus (eldritch blast) increasing the save DC of the utterdark effect by (fort save by the way; hardest to make for most non-fighter types), and the caster on the receiving end could find himself with as many as 12 negative levels in 3 rounds; be down up to 162 hp with no save to reduce or avoid damage; and not even including the average damage of the empowered blasts; and be facing another possible 2 negative levels each round from here to eternity; all by effects that cannot not be countered by a non-warlock through traditional means or use of dispel magic (which cannot counter spell-like abilities) would give anyone pause. By the way, I've never actually run a warlock yet; for some reason my DM just won't let me. I just like to try to find ways of helping classes with a perceived weakness get on a more even footing. I'm also not saying walocks are the end all be all; I just think there's a little more to them than one might notice at first glance.
Kaboth 10-15-05, 01:57 PM	Yea I just want to know how many warlocks go in to town saying... "OHHHH BE WARY I AM A WARLOCK!!!" orrrrr how many go in to a town brandishing a big ol sign that says WARLOCK!!! I mean there is nothing to really differentiate a warlock from other classes unless they use their abilities in town. Even then the mundane townsfolk would only think he was a wizard more than likely if he was flying or something. My point is that unless they "figure it out" somehow then the stigmata of a warlock is an artificial one.
SebastianHero 10-15-05, 03:02 PM	My warforged warlock has been "figured out" three ways: 1) The Eberron world has daily newspapers that are continent-wide and a communications system that allows knowledge to travel quickly, so ANYTHING any character does that's noteworthy or heinous may become common knowledge, especially if you have an interesting look or style. (I discovered that changling PCs make a lot of sense in a world were you're likely famous or infamous by midlevels.) 2) At mid and higher levels, foes have scrying. If the foe, or one of his lackeys, is a spellcaster and has knowledge(arcana) and spellcraft, we will likely figure out that the warlock doesn't require verbal or material components for "spells" and tends to cast the same ones over and over. This smacks of "spell like abilities." Commoners can't scry, but the foe might happily TELL the commoners the character is a warlock and point out why. "Look at his hellish looking ray. It is the work of demons!" 3) If there is a particular history to how warlocks got their power, such as a particular people making a fiendish bargain, then characters with that background may be automatically suspect. It would be like gypses in Europe ("They may throw a baby at you while trying to steal your wallet, so watch out!") For my character, he started off as a unique case so he wasn't suspected in this way, but after a time travel adventure to the past, he became identified with a particular model of warforged, all of whom were warlocks. Another option, (4), is that certain spells and powers become associated with warlocks. "That man there summoned bats; surely he is a warlock!" Warlocks have few invocations and most of them tend to be sinister is some respect. The townsfolk unmasked one twenty years prior, and now even a wizard or sorcerer who casts darkness, or spiderclimb, or summon swarm may be labelled "unfairly" as a warlock. All this said, it is true that there is nothing mechanical which makes the "warlocks are disliked" theme anything more than flavor text. But if a DM wants to use it, there seems to be multiple ways to make it happen.
General_Ridley 10-15-05, 04:33 PM	Yeah, and who do the enemies aim for first in any fight? The guy who looks like a wizard or sorcerer. It's the same deal here. The price you pay for being able to snuff out lives with a word is that everyone's going to want to stick a sword in your throat before you can get the word out. At least the warlock has slightly better HP than a sorcerer, and usually a better AC. But they're still going to try to take him down quick (perhaps with their own save-or-die spells) once they figure out he's trying to turn them all into squirrels. Ah, but the Warlock wears armor, and thus would appear more like the humble bard or rogue. If he is a Changeling, he could even look like a half-orc or orc, and appear as a Dex-Fighter. Foes would have to do more than look and think 'spellcaster'
Kurotowa 10-15-05, 05:23 PM	I'd say that three consecutive rounds of an empowered utterdark blast followed by a quickened, maximized utterdark blast; with ranged touch AC to hit and no save to reduce the damage itself, cast by a warlock with ability focus (eldritch blast) increasing the save DC of the utterdark effect by (fort save by the way; hardest to make for most non-fighter types), and the caster on the receiving end could find himself with as many as 12 negative levels in 3 rounds; be down up to 162 hp with no save to reduce or avoid damage; and not even including the average damage of the empowered blasts; and be facing another possible 2 negative levels each round from here to eternity; all by effects that cannot not be countered by a non-warlock through traditional means or use of dispel magic (which cannot counter spell-like abilities) would give anyone pause. I'm not sure what your point is. Any epic PC of 24th level is going to be impressive, and any sane foe at that level is going to have at least some protection from negative energy effects. So it's a race to tag that caster enough to drop their effect level before they smite you back with an Epic spell. Really, without Epic Invocations or even the chance to use Extra Invocation for more Dark Invocations, the Warlock is not good epic material. The SLA feats are useful, and Maximize SLA have been invaluable to my PC. But the Warlock will never keep up with the damage output of most other classes. Sure I'm doing 7d6 damage, but our archer can Rapid Shot for 4 attacks each doing 1d8+6. Even if he misses once he's still doing more on average. The real power of the Warlock is in utility. I have insane UMD, Bluff, and Intimidate checks. With Fell Flight and Flee the Scene I have amazing mobility and can get the party past almost any terrain obstacle. I can always have Detect Magic up in a dungeon. Between DR, Energy Resistance, and Fast Healing, I put the least drain on the cleric's healing. When I hit 12th level I'll pick up Scribe Scroll and be able to pull out all those wonderful non-combat spells as needed; Permanancy, Legend Lore, Contact Other Plane, Glibness. In the campaign my main claim to fame is making sure the other PCs are free to do what they do best. Which isn't a bad role, really.
Arcanix 10-15-05, 11:34 PM	The utility of the warlock is rather impressive as well, to be sure; I was for the most part pointing out to those who seem more focused in damage dealt than other effects that the warlock can keep pace rather well with most classes. One of the other great qualities of a warlock is the number of cool invocations (such as some of those you mentioned) that last a full 24 hours; traditional casters, even with extend spell, take some time to even become close to such durations. Fell flight is a great example; it gives not just a fly speed, but one with good (hovering type) manueverability; fly for standard casters lasts merely in terms of 1 minute/level; whereas overland flight has still a lesser duration than fell flight; but with only average manueverability. Devil's sight gives a warlock a great edge too; being able to see in magical darkness is something very few other races or classes can do; when coupled with see the unseen one is hard pressed to sneak up on a warlock; and avoiding ambush is one of the more important abilities to have. So damage plus the utility effects you just mentioned make one rather respectable class in my book.
Fedifensor 10-16-05, 11:05 AM	Well, I can only relate my personal experience with my Warforged Warlock in a party with minimal spellcasting ability (the Artificer is the only pure spellcaster). Right now, I function as a magical archer - I use Fell Flight to get out of melee range, then start blasting with an Eldritch Spear/Frightening eldritch blast. I'm planning on getting my first 'save or else' ability at 8th, when I pick up Charm. In our last adventure, when most of the party was having trouble maneuvering underwater to take on a dire shark, I just picked a spot a good distance away and started blasting. I could only miss its touch AC on a 1, and rolling a natural 20 meant a near-certain critical. I personally think that a sorcerer has a harder punch, but there are a few warlock tricks up my sleeve that the sorcerer is hard-pressed to match: * The DR (versus a material most foes won't be carrying) plus the d6 hit dice plus the ability to wear light armor makes the warlock significantly more durable than a sorcerer. It gets even better once you get your element resistance (fire and electricity are good choices). * Entropic Shield is a great low-level ability to help protect against ranged attacks, and leaving no trail means an enemy can't track you down if you flee. * Detect Magic at will means you'll never miss a magic item - scan every inch of the dungeon if need be. * Taking 10 on UMD is a wonderful tool - especially in Eberron, where you can buy eternal wands to get access to a spell twice per day. * Fly at will keeps the warlock from being pinned down in melee - the sorcerer isn't likely to have fly precast at the beginning of a combat. * A sorcerer may take charm monster as a spell, but being able to do it at will until you get your target charmed is very useful, especially with a foe you've captured and want to interrogate. * An improved Evard's Black Tentacles (one of the nastier spells in the game) usable every round is just amazingly powerful. Even pure fighters can have a tough time getting out of it. * Other posters have already documented the power of Flee The Scene, Word of Change, and Utterdark Blast, so I won't bother to elaborate further.
Particle_Man 10-17-05, 01:06 AM	Don't forget, however, that warlock's are feat-poor, skill-point-poor, and (especially) invocation-poor. So while a warlock will have some of the cook tricks listed above, he won't have all of them. My Warlock will have a very painful choice between Vitriolic Blast and Chill Tentacles at 11th level, and won't get the other until 13th. And two levels is a long time.
Kaboth 10-17-05, 01:54 AM	Don't forget, however, that warlock's are feat-poor, skill-point-poor, and (especially) invocation-poor. So while a warlock will have some of the cook tricks listed above, he won't have all of them. My Warlock will have a very painful choice between Vitriolic Blast and Chill Tentacles at 11th level, and won't get the other until 13th. And two levels is a long time. I am facing the same delemia myself. However, I think I am going to go with Vitrilioc Blast and then Chilling Tents... We seem to be facing lots of contstructs and SR mobs... Then I will take the chilling tents. Just so I can have a power to use that doesnt lock out the rest of the party.
Quirriff 10-17-05, 02:19 AM	* A sorcerer may take charm monster as a spell, but being able to do it at will until you get your target charmed is very useful, especially with a foe you've captured and want to interrogate. Really, I'd take the Sorcerer Charm over the Warlock Charm though, a Sorcerer can charm a whole army, the charm is harder to resist and when you keep trying to charm somebody they get warned that they're going to be charmed, so a wise DM would give then a bonus of +2 on their saving throws, after each successful saving throw until it won't have any effect. The Sorcerer charm can effect more people (more than just one), you can even charm person at level 1 levels.
Oliver D'Argent 10-17-05, 06:44 AM	Really, I'd take the Sorcerer Charm over the Warlock Charm though, a Sorcerer can charm a whole army, the charm is harder to resist and when you keep trying to charm somebody they get warned that they're going to be charmed, so a wise DM would give then a bonus of +2 on their saving throws, after each successful saving throw until it won't have any effect. The Sorcerer charm can effect more people (more than just one), you can even charm person at level 1 levels. It doesn't work that way by RAW. The fact that a Warlock can only have one creature charmed at a time is the balance for having unlimited opportunities to charm it.
Quirriff 10-17-05, 08:38 AM	It doesn't work that way by RAW. The fact that a Warlock can only have one creature charmed at a time is the balance for having unlimited opportunities to charm it. It's the balance for stopping the warlock to charm a whole army of people, by going in a town going in all the houses and charming every person they meet, the sorcerer has to choose the ones he charms because he's got only a few charm spells, a warlock has to choose the ones he charms because he only gets one person charmed at once. The +2 is in the DMG, it's the universal wriggle room rule. Besides a DM can just overule it. The +2 after each successful save (so it's cumulative) is my spin. A creature that makes it saving throw knows somebody's attempted to charm it, thats in the rules. Logicaly, Creatures that make their saving throw the first time, would be prepared should somebody attempt to charm them again.
Mirikon 10-17-05, 10:52 AM	Don't forget, however, that warlock's are feat-poor, skill-point-poor, and (especially) invocation-poor. So while a warlock will have some of the cook tricks listed above, he won't have all of them. My Warlock will have a very painful choice between Vitriolic Blast and Chill Tentacles at 11th level, and won't get the other until 13th. And two levels is a long time. I've never had a problem with running out of skill points or feats. But then, I almost always play a Human, with at least 14 Int. So that helps. Typically I max UMD and Bluff, and then fill in from there. Beguiling Influence is helpful here, as it gives a boost to Bluff, Intimidate, and Diplomacy. As for Vitrolic blast? Unless you're facing a lot of big SR enemies, I'd grab Chilling Tentacles or Wall of Perilous Flame first for battlefield control fun, and then grab Vitrolic blast later.
Grizzled Gryphon 10-17-05, 06:05 PM	If you look through the flames, knowledge you will gain. LOL, Is this a discussion about the Warlock, or an arguement where everyone is saying to each other, "no, I'M right!!"? Here is the way it is... we are all right. Why? Because it is a GAME, and the various classes are liked and disliked according to personal taste. For example, my favorite class is the Paladin. I know that a lot of people out there don't like the Paladin, and some down right hate them, but that is for them. I appreciate when someone tells me why they don't like the Paladin, because then I may see some aspect of the Paladin I haven't seen before. Some people like big flashy powers, others like behind the scenes, sneaky types. Some like to scream profanities at things while beating them repeatedly with large blunt objects (which can be quite gratifying at times, I admit). The bottom line, though, is if someone doesn't agree with you, so what? If someone doesn't like playing the Warlock, well, that is great, in the long run. I think things wouldn't go so good for a party of 4 warlocks. But then, the same goes for 4 fighters, or 4 wizards, or 4 (insert class here). The best thing about the Warlock is the diversity they bring to the party. Which, can go for any character, for that matter. My :twocents:
Arcanix 10-17-05, 11:16 PM	Quite true. I personally just like receiving and giving good advice to those honestly looking for a way to better their gaming. Saying "warlocks suck" is absolutely no help to a player who is actually excited about them and having trouble overcoming the perceived limitations of the class; or any class for that matter. Besides, when it comes right down to it; most of the classes I enjoy are typically not the most powerful or potent; but I still role play them better and manage to live through the adventure all while still getting the girl, gold, and such more often than powergamers wanting to show how their class is better than all others. Fight character class oppression!!! :w00t:
Particle_Man 10-18-05, 12:48 AM	I've never had a problem with running out of skill points or feats. But then, I almost always play a Human, with at least 14 Int. So that helps. Typically I max UMD and Bluff, and then fill in from there. Beguiling Influence is helpful here, as it gives a boost to Bluff, Intimidate, and Diplomacy. As for Vitrolic blast? Unless you're facing a lot of big SR enemies, I'd grab Chilling Tentacles or Wall of Perilous Flame first for battlefield control fun, and then grab Vitrolic blast later. If you go te human route, that mitigates things somewhat (but even human warlocks could always use a few more feats, and note that their bonus feat has to be one that doesn't have stiff prereq's that couldn't be met by a first level character)), but I went the halfling route with high dex and con and only 12 Int. I max'd UMD and Concentration and then split points between Knowledge (fey (houseruled speciality for background)) and Knowledge (arcana). And I found your VBlast vs. ChillTent. advice interesting juxtaposed with Kaboth's: :) What do I do when two people are doing opposite things? :D I am facing the same delemia myself. However, I think I am going to go with Vitrilioc Blast and then Chilling Tents... We seem to be facing lots of contstructs and SR mobs... Then I will take the chilling tents. Just so I can have a power to use that doesnt lock out the rest of the party.
Kaboth 10-18-05, 01:31 AM	If you go te human route, that mitigates things somewhat (but even human warlocks could always use a few more feats, and note that their bonus feat has to be one that doesn't have stiff prereq's that couldn't be met by a first level character)), but I went the halfling route with high dex and con and only 12 Int. I max'd UMD and Concentration and then split points between Knowledge (fey (houseruled speciality for background)) and Knowledge (arcana). And I found your VBlast vs. ChillTent. advice interesting juxtaposed with Kaboth's: :) What do I do when two people are doing opposite things? :D Well I would look at your campaign and make a decision yourself. Both are excellent spells, really. If you seem to be facing large amounts of mobs, even if they have SR, I would take chilling tentecles. If you seem to be facing less amount of mobs especially if they are constructs, Spell Immune or high SR mobs and you do not want to potentially lock out your party take Vitrilioc Blast. Thats my advice...
Mirikon 10-18-05, 10:59 AM	If you go te human route, that mitigates things somewhat (but even human warlocks could always use a few more feats, and note that their bonus feat has to be one that doesn't have stiff prereq's that couldn't be met by a first level character)), but I went the halfling route with high dex and con and only 12 Int. I max'd UMD and Concentration and then split points between Knowledge (fey (houseruled speciality for background)) and Knowledge (arcana). And I found your VBlast vs. ChillTent. advice interesting juxtaposed with Kaboth's: :) What do I do when two people are doing opposite things? :D Actually, we're saying the same thing, Particle_Man. If you're facing lots of high SR enemies, then vitrolic Blast is the next step for you. I was in a campaign where the party was heading to an island full of demons. So Vitrolic blast was a must. In another campaign, we fought mostly non-SR creatures, so I grabbed Chilling tentacles first, to keep things interesting. As for your char, that's the problem with playing nonhumans with low int. They tend to be short on skill points all over. Still, why did you max out Concentration? I've never bought more than four or five ranks in that over the entire course of a campaign before. The main thing it is good for is casting in grapples and the like, and I've always found it better to focus on avoiding grapples. Really, there are two kinds of warlocks. There's the blaster, which doesn't need high cha for anything other than save DCs, or there's the high cha route, focusing on all the warlock's other abilities such as Charm, or Devour Magic and the like. They both have vastly different play styles, and depending on the party makeup, may have vastly different performance. I tend to go with the high cha route myself.
Fedifensor 10-18-05, 02:26 PM	Really, I'd take the Sorcerer Charm over the Warlock Charm though, a Sorcerer can charm a whole army, the charm is harder to resist and when you keep trying to charm somebody they get warned that they're going to be charmed, so a wise DM would give then a bonus of +2 on their saving throws, after each successful saving throw until it won't have any effect. Knock the prisoner out first - there's no rule saying that a target has to be conscious in order to be charmed. The +2 is in the DMG, it's the universal wriggle room rule. Besides a DM can just overule it. The +2 after each successful save (so it's cumulative) is my spin. Yes, RAW says that a creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. But that doesn't stop the warlock from coming back five minutes later and trying again. Your 'wiggle room' is covered by the +5 bonus for being threatened - and a 1 always fails by RAW, anyway. Since a warlock can keep casting every round, eventually the target will roll a 1 and be charmed.
Kaboth 10-18-05, 02:30 PM	Actually, there is a third and I like to think of myself in that fashion, and that is a utility warlock that is defensive. I still have a high CHA for my D.O.L, UMD and Leadership feat, but I do not have any save invocations. I have 2 shape invocations (Spear and Chain) and next level I will pick up Vitiriloc Blast (my only essence Invoc.) The rest are defensive Invocations or utility and most of my magic items are defensive in nature. However, I do fly at 100 feet per round and perfect maneurvability. LOL. I am building a Leadership warlock. At level 15 I will take Undead Leadership to add to my Leadership feat. =P Then I will take improved cohort, improved followers and finally Dragon Cohort (if we go epic).
Kurama Youko 10-18-05, 03:53 PM	Hello
Grizzled Gryphon 10-18-05, 10:03 PM	Actually, there is a third and I like to think of myself in that fashion, and that is a utility warlock that is defensive. I still have a high CHA for my D.O.L, UMD and Leadership feat, but I do not have any save invocations. I have 2 shape invocations (Spear and Chain) and next level I will pick up Vitiriloc Blast (my only essence Invoc.) The rest are defensive Invocations or utility and most of my magic items are defensive in nature. However, I do fly at 100 feet per round and perfect maneurvability. LOL. I am building a Leadership warlock. At level 15 I will take Undead Leadership to add to my Leadership feat. =P Then I will take improved cohort, improved followers and finally Dragon Cohort (if we go epic). Um, what does D.O.L. stand for? It is probably something obvious, which is why I can't think of it, of course.
Kaboth 10-18-05, 10:14 PM	Um, what does D.O.L. stand for? It is probably something obvious, which is why I can't think of it, of course. Dark One's Own Luck (took out an O cus it was repetative.)
Wyrd Bearer 10-18-05, 10:34 PM	I've never had a problem with running out of skill points or feats. But then, I almost always play a Human, with at least 14 Int. So that helps. Typically I max UMD and Bluff, and then fill in from there. Beguiling Influence is helpful here, as it gives a boost to Bluff, Intimidate, and Diplomacy. As for Vitrolic blast? Unless you're facing a lot of big SR enemies, I'd grab Chilling Tentacles or Wall of Perilous Flame first for battlefield control fun, and then grab Vitrolic blast later.Yep, I'm with you here. I often play humans and I like high Int and Cha characters. Still, I do occasionally wish that the warlock had 4+Int skills to match their large list to choose from. Unlike a wizard, a warlock (even one I play) won't be pumping their Int to the moon, and my builds with warlocks are based around being the face man which mean, if I'm not a human with a decent Int, I have to sacrifice either my party role or my crucial skills (such as Concentrate, UMD, etc.)
Mirikon 10-18-05, 11:48 PM	Yep, I'm with you here. I often play humans and I like high Int and Cha characters. Still, I do occasionally wish that the warlock had 4+Int skills to match their large list to choose from. Unlike a wizard, a warlock (even one I play) won't be pumping their Int to the moon, and my builds with warlocks are based around being the face man which mean, if I'm not a human with a decent Int, I have to sacrifice either my party role or my crucial skills (such as Concentrate, UMD, etc.) I find that being a human Warlock with about 12 or 14 INT I am always able to keep Bluff and UMD maximize. Frankly, I think Concentration is a waste. In all the campaigns I've ever been in, I only needed it once. Why? Because I'm smart enough to avoid situations like that. I'll typically keep Bluff and UMD maxxed, and spend the rest on a few ranks in the three knowledges, some Diplomacy, some Intimidate, and some Perform. Maybe a rank of Ride or two, if we're doing a lot of mounted stuff.
Particle_Man 10-19-05, 10:31 AM	As for your char, that's the problem with playing nonhumans with low int. They tend to be short on skill points all over. Still, why did you max out Concentration? I've never bought more than four or five ranks in that over the entire course of a campaign before. The main thing it is good for is casting in grapples and the like, and I've always found it better to focus on avoiding grapples. My Dm specializes in surprising us. With creatures that grapple. It got bad enough that I begged for a house-ruled feat that allows me to Still Spell-Like Ability (Flee the Scene only) so that I would have the chance to make concentration checks. In some campaigns, you CAN'T avoid being grappled, no matter how smart you are. Trust me on this one.
Kaboth 10-19-05, 11:17 AM	My Dm specializes in surprising us. With creatures that grapple. It got bad enough that I begged for a house-ruled feat that allows me to Still Spell-Like Ability (Flee the Scene only) so that I would have the chance to make concentration checks. In some campaigns, you CAN'T avoid being grappled, no matter how smart you are. Trust me on this one. Unless he bends and breaks the rules completely, a Ring of Freedom of Movement always wins, as does the spell itself. Read the spell LOL. Then Flee the Scene into the air or somewhere and rinse and repeat with blasting.
Particle_Man 10-20-05, 01:05 AM	My Dm also makes it difficult to get magic items on demand. I don't expect ever to see a Ring of Freedom of Movement, and I am not 12th level yet so making one is not an option. Getting the spell on a scroll or wand is an option, but not if I am surprised and grappled (If I have the spell up, great. If not...)
Mirikon 10-20-05, 03:59 AM	Pick up some of the Sudden Metamagic feats from Complete Arcane. They work just fine with SLAs. Grab Sudden Still, and you can Flee the Scene out of that grapple at least once.
Particle_Man 10-20-05, 08:47 PM	That would have been my plan B if my DM had not been nice and allowed the house-ruled Still Spell-Like Ability (Flee the Scene only) 3x/day as a feat.
Grave 11-29-05, 09:46 PM	Frankly, I think Concentration is a waste. I don't think I'd go that far. There are many times when being able to cast defensively opens a vista of options, and there are several build routes that make good use of Concentration. For instance, a Warlock that has Mobile Spellcasting, Pscionic Meditation, and the Pscionic Shot series can add 2d6 or 4d6 to their EB every round and still move before or after using their EB. If you get levels in Cyran Avenger, you can add another 5d6 to that, so with a (G) Chasuable, you're looking at an additional 11d6 damage per EB. Not too shabby. -Grave & Co.
Rayn_Darkwater 11-30-05, 05:11 PM	I see nothing wrong with them one of my friends plays a warlock in the game i run and its not that hard to beat him up at times. I mean its kinda bad that the spells don't run out, but they are easy to deal with if you have Gnome sniper yeah the arms and equipment guide can be thanked for that.
MindWandererB 11-30-05, 05:53 PM	There are a couple of abilities that make the Warlock a bit too good, IMO. Baleful Utterance, as many people have mentioned, can be extremely good against certain opponents. One of the best reasons to "dip" into Warlock. Darkness + Devil's Sight (or Voidsense) is insanely powerful against anyone affected by darkness. Messes up the rest of the party, but in a small or solo game, this is extremely nasty, and also involves no save. A powerful option for a 2-level dip, especially for melee characters. Noxious Blast: My biggest complaint. Deals full Eldritch Blast damage, plus a target that fails a Fort save is nauseated--effectively out of the fight for a full minute. I've house-ruled that when combined with Eldritch Cone or Eldritch Doom, and doesn't work at all on secondary Eldritch Chain targets, but it's still a showstopper pretty frequently against anything vulnerable to nausea. Voracious Dispelling/Devour Magic: A warlock with one of these abilities can often shut down creatures like devils that rely heavily on SLAs. Certain encounters become massively easier with infinite (greater) dispels. Since warlocks aren't damage machines by any means, they can afford to let other characters deal the damage while they focus on dispelling. The Dead Walk: Not unbalancing but just plain annoying. Stupid undead just getting underfoot all the time. Unfortunately, it's a good idea to use them even at high levels as trapspringers and meat shields, but they're annoying for a DM to deal with. Retributive Invisibility: No one else but a pixie gets perpetual greater invisbility. A warlock with this ability forces DMs to either use nothing but enemies that can beat invisibility somehow, or be resigned to most fights being no challenge at all.
Kurotowa 11-30-05, 07:15 PM	Are you speaking from experience? Or just your impressions? From my experience: Baleful Utterance is rather good at low levels, but as you go up in levels most serious foes have magical gear or don't use gear. It's still a great choice but is no where near "too good." Darkness is only a 20% miss chance in 3.5, remember. If a PC wants to devote two of their exceedingly limited supply of Invocations to get a less effective version of a Minor Cloak of Displacement, well, more power to them. Noxious Blast does look very powerful. Enough so that I passed it by in the interest of a more fun game (I have a philosophical aversion to Save or Die). Won't argue with that one, although I'd love to hear from someone with actual experience with it. Devour Magic has a range of Touch, which makes it nearly useless for counterspelling. Yes, it is nice to have Voracious Dispelling to do counterspell duty with. But that's one PC entirely out of action, for an action that won't always work, and how soon does the devil give up trying to use SLA. Again, good, but is it any stronger than any other class doing what it does best? Retributive Invisibility isn't overpowered, since you can't get it till at least 16th level. How many creatures have blindsight or scent or True Sight or permanent See Invisibility? How many have access to Dispel or Invisibility Purge? (Don't forget the retributive blast, which may catch your allies.) How many have powerful AoE attacks that don't care if you're invisible? Is it really any stronger than a Sorcerer who casts Greater Invis six times per day?
Arkonth 11-30-05, 08:33 PM	Devour Magic has a range of Touch, which makes it nearly useless for counterspelling. Yes, it is nice to have Voracious Dispelling to do counterspell duty with. But that's one PC entirely out of action, for an action that won't always work, and how soon does the devil give up trying to use SLA. Again, good, but is it any stronger than any other class doing what it does best? Spells and spell-like abilities may not counter each other, making this point moot anyway. Further, spell-like abilities may not be countered at all. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
BlaineTog 11-30-05, 09:48 PM	Baleful Utterance is rather good at low levels, but as you go up in levels most serious foes have magical gear or don't use gear. It's still a great choice but is no where near "too good."That's one of the reasons that the trick is to target unattended objects. Creative use of this invocation can yield an extreme amount of power. I have personally used it to get the party out of at least two massive ambushes, and it was integral in preventing a party member's death at one point in an eberron game (an enemy was sitting in an AMF and had crude grenade she was chucking at us; I readied an action to Baleful Utterance one if it came out of the field. The damage, in addition to the other damage he had already taken, would have been more than enough to kill our wu jen), in addition to various other uses I found for it. That's one of the things I really like about Warlocks: the class encourages creative use of the invocations. Rather than just finding a better spell to use, you have to work with what you've got, which isn't much, but fortunatelly your only limit on use is time. Noxious Blast does look very powerful. Enough so that I passed it by in the interest of a more fun game (I have a philosophical aversion to Save or Die). Won't argue with that one, although I'd love to hear from someone with actual experience with it.That one is extremely good, actually. Not broken, since it fails a good amount of the time, but still very, very good.
Kurotowa 11-30-05, 10:08 PM	Spells and spell-like abilities may not counter each other, making this point moot anyway. Further, spell-like abilities may not be countered at all. Not this arguement again. The point has been heavily debated in the past. I and others are of the opinion that Dispel Magic is Dispel Magic regardless of the source, and Dispel Magic can counterspell other spells as a function of the spell's effect not as a function of the counterspell action. The SLA rule applies only to a spell countering itself. You are entitled to your opinion, as the point is not 100% clear. But don't go throwing it out as a proven point.
Regulas 12-01-05, 12:24 AM	Why was a warlock overpwoerd post made to start with. At times i almost find it UNDERPOWERD. Number of times per day is MOOT compared to power per round. The only advantage number of times per day gives you is it lets you use minor side effect or unusal aspects of abilites you normally wouldnt because itd be a waste. For example every warlock can creat light at will, as Eldricth blast creates light (evan if its maybe only torch bright) and since you can use it at will then just make and hold a charge in your hand and voila instant torch. FINALLY every abilite can be duplicated by some other class at equal lvl or lower they just cant always use it constantly. Overpowerd give me a break.
Oliver D'Argent 12-01-05, 07:19 AM	For example every warlock can creat light at will, as Eldricth blast creates light (evan if its maybe only torch bright) and since you can use it at will then just make and hold a charge in your hand and voila instant torch. Actually, nowhere in the description of the Eldritch Blast does it say what it looks like - much less that it gives off light. It is up to each player to describe what his or her character's blast looks like: it could be purple like in the illustration, it could be a bolt of utter darkness, it could be a stream of tiny bats or spiders or skulls, it could be acid green rays shooting from the Warlock's eyes - it is all just special effects and should not have any useful game function. Also, I believe it was determined in one of the many Hideous Blow threads that you could not "hold a charge" with an Eldritch Blast. The Warlock is not a huge damage producer, but the fact that he has unlimited uses for his invocations can give a party options that they not be willing to try with a conventional caster.
Kurotowa 12-01-05, 09:02 AM	The Warlock is not a huge damage producer, but the fact that he has unlimited uses for his invocations can give a party options that they not be willing to try with a conventional caster. I think you've hit it on the nose, Oliver. Warlocks are not stronger, they're new. Having unlimited use Invocations allows for new tactics and options that would be impossibled with a normal caster. None of these new tactics are inherently better than the tactics used by other classes. They're just different from what many people are prepared for or used to. Probably that's why the class has so many fans. It's the first really new style class in rather a long time.
Dracspero 12-01-05, 10:43 AM	I'd like to echo the comments that others have made regarding magic items...don't underestimate Deceive Item. In addition, there's nothing stopping a Warlock from taking craft item skills before 12th level, if they can find someone willing to cast the required spells for them. I intend to take Craft Wondrous at 6th and Craft Staffs at 9th. With staffs especially, a high level Warlock can match the spellcasting power of a similar level wizard or cleric, though at the sacrifice of experience and gold, which is how it should be.
Nephlite 12-01-05, 10:55 AM	Eldritch Blast is useful to sunder enemies armor or weapon (the errata says it can or was it the Creator's thread). I guess it dowsn't create light, but it would if you put fire on it and got a piece of wood. Improvised torch :D (there are few fire esence invocations though).
Seeker of Undeath 12-01-05, 11:18 AM	Spells and spell-like abilities may not counter each other, making this point moot anyway. Further, spell-like abilities may not be countered at all.Thankfully they can be used to dispel, or so says the article.
Joachim 12-01-05, 10:04 PM	I think you've hit it on the nose, Oliver. Warlocks are not stronger, they're new. Having unlimited use Invocations allows for new tactics and options that would be impossibled with a normal caster. None of these new tactics are inherently better than the tactics used by other classes. They're just different from what many people are prepared for or used to. Probably that's why the class has so many fans. It's the first really new style class in rather a long time. I will second this motion. I have been playing my first Warlock character for the past few weeks, and while I am not any kind of combat beast, I am having a blast (no pun intended) with him. Very different play style from any of the previous classes, and very creative class. Kudos to the writers of Complete Arcane for that one. It needed major errata, but they have it pretty well fixed now. And I will disagree with the low-damage opinion. Warlocks can do BIG damage, but its generally limited to one target, not an area like wizzes/sorcs.
cre100382 12-01-05, 11:47 PM	I heartily agree. I have played a warlock for only a few sessions, but it is a lot of fun just being the object of suspicion, yet being very helpful to the party.
Oliver D'Argent 12-02-05, 07:55 AM	I have only been playing my Warlock a short time also. The other characters in the party don't actually know what class he is yet, though the Wizard may have figured it out (the players know, but not the characters). Compared to a Wizard or Sorcerer, Warlocks are not huge damage producers. At 20th level, a Warlock with Empower Spell-Like Ability, a Greater Chasuble of Fell Power and a Warlock's Scepter could do 19.5d6 (22.5d6 if your group allows Empower to work on the Chasuble and Scepter's damage too) three times a day. At 20th level, a Wizard or Sorcerer could do 20d6 to one target and 10d6 to up to 20 other targets using Chain Lightning and 40d6 using Disintegrate. A Wizard could cast either of these at least 4 times a day and a Sorcerer could cast them 6 times a day. Granted, both of those spells allow saves, but the damage potential is there.
De Batavier 12-02-05, 08:32 AM	I've only used one low level Warlock as DM in play. Using a tactic with darkness devils sight and spiderclimb. Though I could keep this Warlock alive, I had a hard time. It always comes down to the style of the campaign, the DM and the player. Some players are just more creative and shine in any campaign with any class. I don't believe the Warlock is inherently more powerfull than any other. Maybe at low levels they are more powerfull than the other casters (because he can do his trick the whole day), but more or less equal to fighters. At higher levels the difference with the other casters becomes less or switch in favor of the other casters. :cool:
LancerDL 12-02-05, 01:41 PM	I don't know if this fits in the "Overpower" category, but there is something that bothers me with SLA feats which mimic metamagical feats for Warlocks. The two concepts aren't equivalent. A metamagic feat for a spell caster means they can't cast a higher level spell. If you empower a spell, it takes up a slot 2 levels higher. If you maximize a spell, it takes up a slot 3 levels higher. If you quicken a spell, it takes up a slot 4 levels higher. This essentially means, for characters 1-20, spells level 8-9 will never be empowered, spells 7-9 will never be maximized, and spells 6-9 will never be quickened. So there are three balancing features to caster meta-magic feats: 1) They reduce the number of higher-level spells you can cast. 2) Effects cannot be applied to a broad-range of higher level spells (lvls 1-20) 3) The metamagic feats can stack, but I think so do the costs, ie: empower + maximize = spells 0-4 (since it uses slots 5 lvls higher and 9 is max). empower + maximize + quicken = spells 0 (since it uses slots 9 lvls higher and 9 is max). Of these, point 1 can be argued that the lower-level spell may now have effects that rival the higher level spells (sometimes exceeding). I can concede that, but I don't think this is always the case. Suffice to say, there are very good reasons to reserve higher-level spell slots. You can correct me on point 3 if I'm wrong. But if I'm right, then basically only cantrips can be cast with all three feats together. Now consider the feats available to Warlock: Empower SLA, 3/day, SLA level = (caster level)/2 - 2, or 8 in lvl 20 case. Maximize SLA, 3/day, SLA level = (caster level)/2 - 2, or 8 in lvl 20 case. Quicken SLA, 3/day, SLA level = (caster level)/2 - 4, or 6 in lvl 20 case. Basically said, there are Dark invokations that are usable for each of these three feats. In all cases, only level 9 equivalent invokations are excluded. So the range of available invokations with these feats is certainly greater. A Warlock uses invokations without slots, so there is no trade-off with higher level invokations. The only cost is the daily limit. Because of this, there is no reason why a Warlock would not use all of these feats in a day (aside from unexpected future confrontations). The last part is that the feat must be selected with a particular invokation in mind. So the balancing features for Warlocks with these feats are: 1) 3 uses per day per feat 2) Effects cannot be applied to a smaller range of higher level spells (1-20) 3) The feats can stack, and I think so do the limitations, ie: empower + maximize = invokations 1-6 (20/2 -2 -2). empower + maximize + quicken = invokations 1-2 (20/2 -2 -2 -4). 4) Feats are limited to the selected invokation To compare the points: 1) The Warlock may only have 3 uses per day for a particular feat, but there is no reason not to use these charges since it doesn't inhibit the use of higher level spells. For a caster, it inhibits the use of higher level spells, and thus there is a good reason not to use the feat. 2) Clearly the Warlock has more higher level invokations available to the feats. A Warlock can never use a feat on a lvl 9 invokation, but he/she can apply it to some lvl 8 invokations. Casters are completely unable to use these feats with any level 8 or 9 spells. The worst it gets for a Warlock is with quicken, which limits to invokations lvls 1-6. For casters, same feat, it's 1-5. 3) Only cantrips can use all three feats for casters, whereas Warlocks can use invokations lvls 1-2, however all three feats must be selected for the same invokation. 4) This is the major limitation for Warlocks, whereas it can be used with versatility with casters. The Warlock is stuck with his/her feat selections, whereas casters can pick and choose (although it must be ahead of time). You can debate with yourself as to which side ends up more powerful, but in my opinion, when it comes to these feats after they've been chosen, the Warlock is going to always use them, whereas it doesn't always profit the caster to do so. At least for a caster they chose a feat which may not always be used, and then a planning based decision of when to use it at the expense of other spells, and so the ability rewards the risk and the thinking. When it comes to the selection for Warlocks, you can't really plan how it will be used situationally so you end up having to base it on a strategy you tend to use often. Ie: "I could always use more attacks/damage with ____". I'm not saying that's the only way it might be used, but I can see that being the choice for most. Particularly what bothers me though is the Quicken ability. It is essentially 3 free attacks/actions, where no matter what invokation it is applied to, it's going to get used on a daily basis (if opportunity presents itself). Once taken, there is no cost to using these feats, and Quicken I find the most imbalancing. I don't care to compare how much damage is being caused by whom, but benefits should come with costs in order for something to be considered balanced (either character based, risk-based, or decision-making based), and I just don't see any high enough for the Warlock class. It's not a comfortable class for me to allow in my adventures. I'd like it if someone could put my concerns to rest. Preferably from someone who plays more with or against Warlocks than as one.
Dracspero 12-02-05, 02:03 PM	Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you take a meta-SLA feat, don't you have to specify at the time you take it what ability it applies to? That is rather limiting, as the other casters can apply the feat to whichever spells they choose (as long as the level is appropriate), and sorcerers could actually choose to apply them (except Quicken) to every spell he casts. Now if you take Quicken Eldritch Blast, it could be debated whether the effect would apply to a blast modified by essences or shapes, but if it did, you'd need to take the adjusted level into account. What it basically comes down to is the same old switch off that's common in D&D, more effective in one thing in exchange for lack of versatility.
LancerDL 12-02-05, 02:51 PM	You are correct, choosing an SLA feat must specify which invocation you are applying it to. Yes it is limiting, but it is not terribly limiting, given that a Warlock gets only 12 invocations total, and Eldritch blast. A number of those selected invocations are used in conjunction with eldritch blast, and most have no variable component (which empower and maximize act upon). In my view, you can quicken all essence and shape invocations just by quickening eldritch blast itself. So outside of "Other Invocations", it looks like a no-brainer to select eldritch blast. If by selecting eldritch blast you get such variability, then the versatility of the meta-magic feat for casters is not such a great advantage anymore. In addition, you can apply both a shape and essence invokation to a quickened, maximized, empowered eldritch blast, as long as they are from the least list (and level 2 or under). There is nothing that a wizard can do that is comparable. And as I said, once the feat is selected, there's no reason that the Warlock shouldn't use it as often as possible. It's "for free" after that. For most casters nothing is for free in the same sense, and there is always a risk of using a meta-magic feat in terms of how many higher level spells you will need as well. Quicken is an extremely useful meta-magical ability in almost any case, but its cost is not felt by the Warlock as much as it is felt by the caster. Principally, this is what bothers me.
Dracspero 12-02-05, 03:26 PM	Quicken is an extremely useful meta-magical ability in almost any case, but its cost is not felt by the Warlock as much as it is felt by the caster. Principally, this is what bothers me. I agree with what you're saying, but find that it doesn't bother me. Reading through most of the posts in this thread, it appears that most people consider the Warlock (numberwise, anyway) inferior to other spell-casters at high level. From that perspective, what the advantage of these abilities does is bring the Warlock closer to the capabilities of the pure caster (3 times a day, anyway). 3 times a day at 20th level a warlock could do 2 maximized+empowered 9d6 blasts in a round doing significant damage (54+4d6 each?). Such damage still, IMO, pales compared to the power of a 20th level wizard (maybe not in damage, but damage isn't the end-all be-all at that point). And don't forget, there's still that roll to hit. You may be unlikely to miss, but there's always a chance. Also, 3 feats for a warlock is a significant investment, considering how many different aspects of a warlock feats can be used for (ranged attack feats, item creation feats, meta-SLA feats, and of course Extra Invocation). I'm not saying it's not nasty, just that I don't believe it unbalances the class.
LancerDL 12-02-05, 03:58 PM	It's true there is a roll to hit, and it's true that generally casters do a lot more damage. I think there might be more ways to resist caster damage, reduce it, or avoid it altogether, but that is not true for every spell. At any rate, my comment was mostly just on those feats. I think they are better for Warlocks compared to the casters' versions, and in that sense represent a greater advantage. That's not really saying whether on the whole Warlocks are imbalanced, though it still makes me nervous to allow a player to be one, as I know some folks who would just play cheap with it.