Aristocrat [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Aristocrat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rustmonster
12-06-07, 11:35 PM I have been wondering for a while about the use of the Aristocrat NPC class for a PC. It seems like a fun class, but it's lack of class features seems like it might be too weak. I'd like imput from others as to weather or not they think the class is viable as a player class, and if anyone has played one before. Thank you.
Jaxgaret
12-06-07, 11:58 PM The Marshal is a PC class that essentially out-Aristocrats the Aristocrat, except for starting gold.
JulesCARV
12-07-07, 12:19 AM My attempt at the aristocrat-as-PC is the kshatriya (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=823979). (Why that particular name? Because it wasn't yet taken, as with the noble of dragonlance, DMG aristocrat, etc.)
DrakaraGM
12-07-07, 02:31 AM I have been wondering for a while about the use of the Aristocrat NPC class for a PC. It seems like a fun class, but it's lack of class features seems like it might be too weak. I'd like imput from others as to weather or not they think the class is viable as a player class, and if anyone has played one before. Thank you.

As is, it is a playable class -- but definitely underpowered in multiple ways.

To make it more balanced -- though clearly still not as powerful as most normal classes -- I would tweak it as follows:

1) 6 skill points per level rather than 4. Aristocrats have a fine huge list of class skills, but not enough skill points to take real advantage of it.

2) Bonus feats. I gave them a feat at 2nd and one at every three additional levels, i.e. 5th, 8th, etc. and made a bonus feat list that allowed a variety of things I wanted nobles to be able to take in my campaign. The main reason I picked 2nd and 5th as the first couple instances of bonus feats was that both were "more dead" than most of their dead levels. But you could allow them to pretty much take any feats they qualify for and still not worry about balance over much. :)

Those two changes are not enough to make them better than any of the PHB classes, I don't think -- but they do come close. However, like many other "boring" classes, players will be very likely to multiclass PrC out of them before too many classes, which is fine. Starting with one or two levels of aristocrat, with those slight boosts, can give you a noble/rich character with a fine set of skills, a place in society, and a platform from which to develop into more typical directions as an adventurer. Whether the multiclassing is into other base classes or into a PrC -- or first one and then shortly the other -- simply having at least one level of aristocrat lets you consider yourself a cut above the rest of the population in terms of social status. It is a way to get some decent skills without having to dip into rogue or scout or some more traditional skill monkey class -- if you want to be a knight (but not as the PHB2 class) you can give up that 1 point of BAB, start as an aristocrat, take some fighter levels, take another level of aristocrat to crank up some of the non-fighter skills some more and get the bonus feat, then PrC into one of the mounted warrior type PrCs.

But playing the aristocrat NPC class just as written in the DMG, not adviseable. Unless everyone gets to be an NPC class, which can be an interesting way to start a campaign. The other NPC classes are viable as well in that case -- except commoner. If you want to be a commoner, be an expert instead, take 10 commoner class skills as your 10 expert class skills, and call yourself a commoner.

In my own campaigns, all NPC classes get 2 extra skill points per level, and a bonus feat progression at 2nd, 5th etc., except adepts which instead get a single domain to start with, +1 domain spell per level, and can spontaneously cast their domain spell in place of a normally prepared adept spell, and later get to add another domain at 10th and a 3rd at 20th. This pumps up the population slightly but does not really threaten to usurp the role of adventurers with their more powerful classes -- nobody really wants to play an NPC class even with those improvements, but they respect the ordinary citizens just a bit more. Or at least the ones that are 'notable' or 'reknowned', i.e. higher than 1st level...

The 3.0 OA Samurai is another decent class you could use as an aristocrat, with just some flavor tweaking.
Rustmonster
12-07-07, 09:28 AM The Marshal is a PC class that essentially out-Aristocrats the Aristocrat, except for starting gold.

What book is that from?

The 3.0 OA Samurai is another decent class you could use as an aristocrat, with just some flavor tweaking.

Is that class anything like the one in CW? If so, I definatly do not want to play it. :P
Thanks for the imput though.
RobbyPants
12-07-07, 09:35 AM As an NPC class, it is underpowered compared to PC classes. I don't really think it needs a boost in and of itself. I suppose you could always start as an aristocrat for the starting gold, and then multiclass out, to represent new training.

Another option is to create a feat or level 1 ACF that lets you start with more gold, representing privaliage. I wouldn't consider it optimized, but it might be a way to portray a wealthy background without multiclassing.
Jaxgaret
12-07-07, 11:28 AM What book is that from?

The Miniatures Handbook.

You can take a look at an abbreviated version of it on page 157 of this pdf (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf).
Tony Vargas
12-07-07, 12:02 PM The Aristocrat has an excellent skill list, but only a moderate amount of skill points. It's also a rare non-caster class with good will saves.

At first level, it's high starting wealth makes it perfectly viable. More than a few levels, though, and it's only going to stay that way if the character's privilleged status is sufficiently important in the campaign, or if his skills are unique in the party (most likely if he's the 'face,' for instance). Multiclassing is a perfectly good option, though. Start as an Aristocrat for the starting wealth and social privillege, then embark on your adventuring career with a PC class. A fighter starting as an Aristocrat boosts a weak save, gets a lot of skills, and starts with superior armor, and can go back for 3 more levels of the class to further boost his skills as needed without sacrificing any more BAB. A Wizard starting as an Aristocrat has twice as may hps, and the benefits of armor (which he can retain for a while, if he picks spells w/o somatic components and/or gets Still Spell, later) - and he gets martial weapon proficiency, which qualifies him for Eldritch Knight, later.

But, ower-wise, it's just not a PC class on it's own. If you increased his skill points or BAB, and gave him a second good save, you might have something.

For instance, you could have a 'Knightly' Aristocrat, who has armor, shield & martial weapons proficiencies, full BAB, and good FORT as well as Will. That'd be pretty worthwhile. He'd be an adequate warrior type & the privillege and skills would make up for his lack of barbarian rage or fighter feats. Or, you could go the other way, and give a 'Courtly' Aristocrat different combat abilities (maybe light armor, bucklers, finesseable weapons, and weapon finesse), 6 skill points per level, and good REF saves.
DrakaraGM
12-08-07, 12:57 AM ...Is that class anything like the one in CW? If so, I definatly do not want to play it. :P
Thanks for the imput though.

The 3.0 Oriental Adventures samurai is a much more reasonable class than the CW samurai.

You'll need to check the book to get the full details, or find one of many threads on the Oriental Adventures board perhaps. But the basics are something like this (and this is from memory from at least a year ago last reviewed so may not be 100% accurate):

Strong Fortitude and Will saves

Full BAB

d10 hit die

Light and medium armor, simple and martial weapons.

Decent class skill list -- partway between fighter and aristocrat IIRC -- and I think 4 skill points per level. (Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill can be a problem, but could just remove that skill.)

Bonus feats, but not as often as a fighter. The book is based on having 7 different clans of samurai, which each have different combat styles, which are reflected by the list of bonus feats available, but you could simply allow selection of any non-fighter-only fighter bonus feats if you wanted. Though since the character can use character feats for combat feats that are not in the list for his chosen clan -- which you could modify to be regional, or family-based, or whatever, rather than using the oriental flavor -- it would not be that bad to keep the separate lists and just rename them, perhaps picking just some of them, or whatever.

And finally, a special class feature -- Ancestral Daisho (bastard sword and shortsword, i.e. katana and wakizashi) -- the samurai starts with these masterwork weapons (nice to be rich nobility!) and can over time pray to the ancestors and sacrifice some wealth (can effectively get full value for your captured weapons and so on rather than selling them for half) to enchant these weapons for your own use only. (Other variations have the samurai using experience rather than sacrificing loot.) That flavor might need to be altered, you could allow one single "heirloom weapon" of the player's choice for a western flavor, that the character starts with, it will be masterwork, and even if you don't allow the "self enchantment", that is a nice reflection of the character starting out rich but in a specific way. (Note that most samurai used the katana in two hands so did not automatically have exotic weapon proficiency with it.)

One thing it lacks due to oriental flavor that the aristocrat doesn't lack is the heavy armor and shields proficiencies. You could simply give those back and take out the ancestral weapon stuff completely, and just use aristocrat starting wealth (to make up for not starting with a masterwork weapon or two).

It is clearly superior to my standard "boosted NPC aristocrat" class, and doesn't take all that much to modify it for a more western flavor. But you would need the source material, I don't think it is OGL. In any case, full BAB, two strong saves and a d10 are a good start, all are better than the NPC class currently has. It can make a very good "landed knight or noble" sort of class, that with its full BAB keeps up with the other warrior classes.
vorpo
12-08-07, 01:18 PM Iirc, factotum from dungeonscape outshines aristocrat by far.
Both have d8, 1 good save (ref for fac and will for aris), and both have the same 3/4 BAB

However, factotum has ALL skills as class skills and 2 more skill pts per lvl than aristocrat. On top of that, aristocrat has no features (unless you somehow modify it to be more of a PC class). Even then, it's probably not comparable to the features of factotum. Granted, aristocrat starts w/ 6d8x10 gp and factotum starts w/ 6d4x10 gp. That is about the ONLY downside factotum has to aristocrat.

Therefore, while aristocrat is playable, I'd love to see someone else in the party plays a factotum with him and watch the aristocrat weep.
Jaxgaret
12-08-07, 01:37 PM Iirc, factotum from dungeonscape outshines aristocrat by far.
Both have d8, 1 good save (ref for fac and will for aris), and both have the same 3/4 BAB

However, factotum has ALL skills as class skills and 2 more skill pts per lvl than aristocrat. On top of that, aristocrat has no features (unless you somehow modify it to be more of a PC class). Even then, it's probably not comparable to the features of factotum. Granted, aristocrat starts w/ 6d8x10 gp and factotum starts w/ 6d4x10 gp. That is about the ONLY downside factotum has to aristocrat.

Therefore, while aristocrat is playable, I'd love to see someone else in the party plays a factotum with him and watch the aristocrat weep.

A Good Will save is better than a good Reflex save, and the Aristocrat gets HAP, TSP and all MWP. The Factotum does not.

The Marshal is a much better direct comparison to the Aristocrat. It outshines it almost completely.
bahamut920
12-08-07, 05:53 PM The noble from Dragonlance (or Wheel of Time, or Star Wars d20, etc., they seem to just have not put it in regular D&D...) is pretty much a PC aristocrat. They serve the same "5th wheel" role as the bard/marshal/dragon shaman/etc, enhancing the rest of the group and playing a support role, for the most part. No spellcasting means that they aren't quite as powerful as the bard, especially for a class that has Charisma as a key ability. But the Favor ability and the ability to gain a (small, but not worthless) income from your family's coffers (as a class ability, at least in the WoT version - which is the one I'm most familiar with). Also, you can choose one of your class skills at level 1; I guess all nobles train in something that isn't generally noble material... I could see that setting up for some good multiclass builds, though (say, Martial Lore as one of your noble class skills or something, then multiclass to warblade or Swordsage...)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rustmonster 12-06-07, 11:35 PM	I have been wondering for a while about the use of the Aristocrat NPC class for a PC. It seems like a fun class, but it's lack of class features seems like it might be too weak. I'd like imput from others as to weather or not they think the class is viable as a player class, and if anyone has played one before. Thank you.
Jaxgaret 12-06-07, 11:58 PM	The Marshal is a PC class that essentially out-Aristocrats the Aristocrat, except for starting gold.
JulesCARV 12-07-07, 12:19 AM	My attempt at the aristocrat-as-PC is the kshatriya (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=823979). (Why that particular name? Because it wasn't yet taken, as with the noble of dragonlance, DMG aristocrat, etc.)
DrakaraGM 12-07-07, 02:31 AM	I have been wondering for a while about the use of the Aristocrat NPC class for a PC. It seems like a fun class, but it's lack of class features seems like it might be too weak. I'd like imput from others as to weather or not they think the class is viable as a player class, and if anyone has played one before. Thank you. As is, it is a playable class -- but definitely underpowered in multiple ways. To make it more balanced -- though clearly still not as powerful as most normal classes -- I would tweak it as follows: 1) 6 skill points per level rather than 4. Aristocrats have a fine huge list of class skills, but not enough skill points to take real advantage of it. 2) Bonus feats. I gave them a feat at 2nd and one at every three additional levels, i.e. 5th, 8th, etc. and made a bonus feat list that allowed a variety of things I wanted nobles to be able to take in my campaign. The main reason I picked 2nd and 5th as the first couple instances of bonus feats was that both were "more dead" than most of their dead levels. But you could allow them to pretty much take any feats they qualify for and still not worry about balance over much. :) Those two changes are not enough to make them better than any of the PHB classes, I don't think -- but they do come close. However, like many other "boring" classes, players will be very likely to multiclass PrC out of them before too many classes, which is fine. Starting with one or two levels of aristocrat, with those slight boosts, can give you a noble/rich character with a fine set of skills, a place in society, and a platform from which to develop into more typical directions as an adventurer. Whether the multiclassing is into other base classes or into a PrC -- or first one and then shortly the other -- simply having at least one level of aristocrat lets you consider yourself a cut above the rest of the population in terms of social status. It is a way to get some decent skills without having to dip into rogue or scout or some more traditional skill monkey class -- if you want to be a knight (but not as the PHB2 class) you can give up that 1 point of BAB, start as an aristocrat, take some fighter levels, take another level of aristocrat to crank up some of the non-fighter skills some more and get the bonus feat, then PrC into one of the mounted warrior type PrCs. But playing the aristocrat NPC class just as written in the DMG, not adviseable. Unless everyone gets to be an NPC class, which can be an interesting way to start a campaign. The other NPC classes are viable as well in that case -- except commoner. If you want to be a commoner, be an expert instead, take 10 commoner class skills as your 10 expert class skills, and call yourself a commoner. In my own campaigns, all NPC classes get 2 extra skill points per level, and a bonus feat progression at 2nd, 5th etc., except adepts which instead get a single domain to start with, +1 domain spell per level, and can spontaneously cast their domain spell in place of a normally prepared adept spell, and later get to add another domain at 10th and a 3rd at 20th. This pumps up the population slightly but does not really threaten to usurp the role of adventurers with their more powerful classes -- nobody really wants to play an NPC class even with those improvements, but they respect the ordinary citizens just a bit more. Or at least the ones that are 'notable' or 'reknowned', i.e. higher than 1st level... The 3.0 OA Samurai is another decent class you could use as an aristocrat, with just some flavor tweaking.
Rustmonster 12-07-07, 09:28 AM	The Marshal is a PC class that essentially out-Aristocrats the Aristocrat, except for starting gold. What book is that from? The 3.0 OA Samurai is another decent class you could use as an aristocrat, with just some flavor tweaking. Is that class anything like the one in CW? If so, I definatly do not want to play it. :P Thanks for the imput though.
RobbyPants 12-07-07, 09:35 AM	As an NPC class, it is underpowered compared to PC classes. I don't really think it needs a boost in and of itself. I suppose you could always start as an aristocrat for the starting gold, and then multiclass out, to represent new training. Another option is to create a feat or level 1 ACF that lets you start with more gold, representing privaliage. I wouldn't consider it optimized, but it might be a way to portray a wealthy background without multiclassing.
Jaxgaret 12-07-07, 11:28 AM	What book is that from? The Miniatures Handbook. You can take a look at an abbreviated version of it on page 157 of this pdf (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf).
Tony Vargas 12-07-07, 12:02 PM	The Aristocrat has an excellent skill list, but only a moderate amount of skill points. It's also a rare non-caster class with good will saves. At first level, it's high starting wealth makes it perfectly viable. More than a few levels, though, and it's only going to stay that way if the character's privilleged status is sufficiently important in the campaign, or if his skills are unique in the party (most likely if he's the 'face,' for instance). Multiclassing is a perfectly good option, though. Start as an Aristocrat for the starting wealth and social privillege, then embark on your adventuring career with a PC class. A fighter starting as an Aristocrat boosts a weak save, gets a lot of skills, and starts with superior armor, and can go back for 3 more levels of the class to further boost his skills as needed without sacrificing any more BAB. A Wizard starting as an Aristocrat has twice as may hps, and the benefits of armor (which he can retain for a while, if he picks spells w/o somatic components and/or gets Still Spell, later) - and he gets martial weapon proficiency, which qualifies him for Eldritch Knight, later. But, ower-wise, it's just not a PC class on it's own. If you increased his skill points or BAB, and gave him a second good save, you might have something. For instance, you could have a 'Knightly' Aristocrat, who has armor, shield & martial weapons proficiencies, full BAB, and good FORT as well as Will. That'd be pretty worthwhile. He'd be an adequate warrior type & the privillege and skills would make up for his lack of barbarian rage or fighter feats. Or, you could go the other way, and give a 'Courtly' Aristocrat different combat abilities (maybe light armor, bucklers, finesseable weapons, and weapon finesse), 6 skill points per level, and good REF saves.
DrakaraGM 12-08-07, 12:57 AM	...Is that class anything like the one in CW? If so, I definatly do not want to play it. :P Thanks for the imput though. The 3.0 Oriental Adventures samurai is a much more reasonable class than the CW samurai. You'll need to check the book to get the full details, or find one of many threads on the Oriental Adventures board perhaps. But the basics are something like this (and this is from memory from at least a year ago last reviewed so may not be 100% accurate): Strong Fortitude and Will saves Full BAB d10 hit die Light and medium armor, simple and martial weapons. Decent class skill list -- partway between fighter and aristocrat IIRC -- and I think 4 skill points per level. (Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill can be a problem, but could just remove that skill.) Bonus feats, but not as often as a fighter. The book is based on having 7 different clans of samurai, which each have different combat styles, which are reflected by the list of bonus feats available, but you could simply allow selection of any non-fighter-only fighter bonus feats if you wanted. Though since the character can use character feats for combat feats that are not in the list for his chosen clan -- which you could modify to be regional, or family-based, or whatever, rather than using the oriental flavor -- it would not be that bad to keep the separate lists and just rename them, perhaps picking just some of them, or whatever. And finally, a special class feature -- Ancestral Daisho (bastard sword and shortsword, i.e. katana and wakizashi) -- the samurai starts with these masterwork weapons (nice to be rich nobility!) and can over time pray to the ancestors and sacrifice some wealth (can effectively get full value for your captured weapons and so on rather than selling them for half) to enchant these weapons for your own use only. (Other variations have the samurai using experience rather than sacrificing loot.) That flavor might need to be altered, you could allow one single "heirloom weapon" of the player's choice for a western flavor, that the character starts with, it will be masterwork, and even if you don't allow the "self enchantment", that is a nice reflection of the character starting out rich but in a specific way. (Note that most samurai used the katana in two hands so did not automatically have exotic weapon proficiency with it.) One thing it lacks due to oriental flavor that the aristocrat doesn't lack is the heavy armor and shields proficiencies. You could simply give those back and take out the ancestral weapon stuff completely, and just use aristocrat starting wealth (to make up for not starting with a masterwork weapon or two). It is clearly superior to my standard "boosted NPC aristocrat" class, and doesn't take all that much to modify it for a more western flavor. But you would need the source material, I don't think it is OGL. In any case, full BAB, two strong saves and a d10 are a good start, all are better than the NPC class currently has. It can make a very good "landed knight or noble" sort of class, that with its full BAB keeps up with the other warrior classes.
vorpo 12-08-07, 01:18 PM	Iirc, factotum from dungeonscape outshines aristocrat by far. Both have d8, 1 good save (ref for fac and will for aris), and both have the same 3/4 BAB However, factotum has ALL skills as class skills and 2 more skill pts per lvl than aristocrat. On top of that, aristocrat has no features (unless you somehow modify it to be more of a PC class). Even then, it's probably not comparable to the features of factotum. Granted, aristocrat starts w/ 6d8x10 gp and factotum starts w/ 6d4x10 gp. That is about the ONLY downside factotum has to aristocrat. Therefore, while aristocrat is playable, I'd love to see someone else in the party plays a factotum with him and watch the aristocrat weep.
Jaxgaret 12-08-07, 01:37 PM	Iirc, factotum from dungeonscape outshines aristocrat by far. Both have d8, 1 good save (ref for fac and will for aris), and both have the same 3/4 BAB However, factotum has ALL skills as class skills and 2 more skill pts per lvl than aristocrat. On top of that, aristocrat has no features (unless you somehow modify it to be more of a PC class). Even then, it's probably not comparable to the features of factotum. Granted, aristocrat starts w/ 6d8x10 gp and factotum starts w/ 6d4x10 gp. That is about the ONLY downside factotum has to aristocrat. Therefore, while aristocrat is playable, I'd love to see someone else in the party plays a factotum with him and watch the aristocrat weep. A Good Will save is better than a good Reflex save, and the Aristocrat gets HAP, TSP and all MWP. The Factotum does not. The Marshal is a much better direct comparison to the Aristocrat. It outshines it almost completely.
bahamut920 12-08-07, 05:53 PM	The noble from Dragonlance (or Wheel of Time, or Star Wars d20, etc., they seem to just have not put it in regular D&D...) is pretty much a PC aristocrat. They serve the same "5th wheel" role as the bard/marshal/dragon shaman/etc, enhancing the rest of the group and playing a support role, for the most part. No spellcasting means that they aren't quite as powerful as the bard, especially for a class that has Charisma as a key ability. But the Favor ability and the ability to gain a (small, but not worthless) income from your family's coffers (as a class ability, at least in the WoT version - which is the one I'm most familiar with). Also, you can choose one of your class skills at level 1; I guess all nobles train in something that isn't generally noble material... I could see that setting up for some good multiclass builds, though (say, Martial Lore as one of your noble class skills or something, then multiclass to warblade or Swordsage...)