Armor Savant [Archive] - Wizards Community

Armor Savant [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lotus Crane
12-12-03, 10:10 AM What do you guys think? After seeing the Exotic Weapon Master and Spellsword in the Complete Warrior, I decided to try and make a little 3-level PrC, that gave multi-classed barbarians, bards, monks, rangers, sorcerors, swashbucklers, or wizards, a chance to get a little more AC, at the cost of slowing down progression in their primary abilities.

ARMOR SAVANT
Hit Die: d8.

Requirements
To qualify to become an armor savant, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Skills: Balance 6 ranks, Concentration 6 ranks.
Feats: Combat Casting or Combat Reflexes, Light Armor Proficiency.
Special: Must have at least two of the following abilities: ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells, Grace, Evasion, Mettle, Uncanny Dodge, Still Mind.

Class Skills
The armor savant’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Table: The Armor Savant

Class Base Fort Ref Will
Level Attack Bonus Save Save Save Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 A bit of magic, what's the difference
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Medium armor proficiency,
this isn't so bad
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Heavy armor proficiency, I
didn't know I was wearing armor

Class Features
All the following are Class Features of the armor savant prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Armor savants gain proficiency with martial weapons, and with shields (including tower shields).

A Bit of Magic: At 1st level, an armor savant gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast spells before he became an armor savant, he must decide to which class he adds his first level of armor savant for the purpose of determining spells per day.
If an armor savant does not have a previous arcane spellcasting class, then he may instead gain the spell-like ability to use three 0-level spells (cantrips) a day from the sorceror/wizard spell list. He knows every cantrip, but does not need to prepare them ahead of time, and can use the same spell for all three of his daily uses if he wants.

What's the Difference: Beginning at 1st level, armor savants who have abilities that are restricted to medium armor, may use those abilities while wearing heavy armor. For example, a barbarian retains his fast movement even while wearing heavy armor. However, even if an armor savant has what's the difference, this isn't so bad, and I didn't know I was wearing armor, he cannot reduce his armor restrictions by more than category. For example, a bard could wear up to medium armor and ignore Arcane Spell Failure, but he could not wear heavy armor without incurring normal ASF.
An armor savant with what's the difference also has his maximum Dexterity bonus to Armor Class while wearing armor or using a shield increased by 1, his Armor Check Penalty is reduced by 1, and his Arcane Spell Failure is reduced by 5% (this change does not stack with this isn't so bad or I didn't know I was wearing armor).

Medium Armor Proficiency: At 2nd level, armor savants gain medium armor proficiency as a bonus feat.

This isn't so Bad: Beginning at 2nd level, armor savants who have abilities that are restricted to light armor, may use those abilities while wearing medium armor. For example, a rogue retains his evasion even while wearing medium armor. However, even if an armor savant has what's the difference, this isn't so bad, and I didn't know I was wearing armor, he cannot reduce his armor restrictions by more than category. For example, a bard could wear up to medium armor and ignore Arcane Spell Failure, but he could not wear heavy armor without incurring normal ASF.
An armor savant with this isn't so bad also has his maximum Dexterity bonus to Armor Class while wearing armor or using a shield increased by 2, his Armor Check Penalty is reduced by 2, and his Arcane Spell Failure is reduced by 10% (this change does not stack with what's the difference or I didn't know I was wearing armor).

Heavy Armor Proficiency: At 3rd level, armor savants gain Heavy Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat.

I Didn't Know I was Wearing Armor: Beginning at 3rd level, armor savants who have abilities that are restricted to no armor, may use those abilities while wearing light armor. For example, a monk retains his Wisdom bonus to AC even while wearing light armor. However, even if an armor savant has what's the difference, this isn't so bad, and I didn't know I was wearing armor, he cannot reduce his armor restrictions by more than category. For example, a bard could wear up to medium armor and ignore Arcane Spell Failure, but he could not wear heavy armor without incurring normal ASF.
An armor savant with I didn't know I was wearing armor also has his maximum Dexterity bonus to Armor Class while wearing armor or using a shield increased by 3, his Armor Check Penalty is reduced by 3, and his Arcane Spell Failure is reduced by 15% (this change does not stack with what's the difference or I didn't know I was wearing armor).
Kary Wanzer
12-12-03, 01:46 PM I don't see any real problems here hon; sure being able to wear heavier armor without penalty is a powerful ability, but considering it takes 3 levels to get it all, and the requirements to enter, this PrC is either balanced, or maybe even underpowered. The most helpful use of the Armor Savant would probably be to help a wizard qualify for Eldritch Knight or Spellsword, who would suffer from multi-classing EXP penalties if she took a level in fighter instead. :w:
Slagmire
12-13-03, 03:09 PM :nonono:
Kary Wanzer
12-13-03, 08:57 PM Slagmire, all you give us is a frownie, without even the slightest explanation as to exactly what you think is wrong with the class, or why you think that way. That's just random flaming or trolling isn't it? It's a violation of the CoC (or at least bad manners) isn't it? You're being a major :censored: :censored: aren't you?

Give us a little more respect and feedback please; there's absolutely no justification for just putting up a :nonono: and leaving. :b:
Slagmire
12-13-03, 11:39 PM :smirk: All right you :censored: :censored: :censored:. If you want some explanation...

Don't take this too bad, Lotus, I'm actually going to be serious during this portion before I unleash a bit more of my wrath upon this Kary wench... :)

First off, there is no real set theme to your PrC. You can have either Balance or Concentration. You can have either Combat Casting or Combat Reflexes. Because of this decision, it's hard (almost impossible) to accurately determine what the character is going to be.

If he's going to be a more fight-driven character, then the d8 for HD is all right, but it's very high considering that the arcane spell casters don't get that high of a die. The skill points gained per level also seem high to me, especially since it seems you're trying to focus on armor use. As for the saves, again - it really and truely depends on what type of PrC it's going to be, and I can't really make a clear cut idea on what this is supposed to be.

The armor abilities that you put in this also seem very overpowering. I don't know about you, but the extra 10 feet gained with the Barbarian class is pretty damn nice, and when you've got another 2 or 3 AC (and I won't get into the arcane spell checks... even with the bard's ability to ignore it for light armor) it's too much.

Basically - this really needed a lot more planning then it seemed it got. Some of the things in this aren't bad ideas, just too damn powerful... especially considering you're only going to progress three levels.

...now... Kary... shut your :censored: :censored: :censored: you:censored: :censored: :censored: ...

...man, I better stop this, I might get to like it. :angel:
Lotus Crane
12-14-03, 01:07 AM Slagmire, I expect you to apologize to Kary; you're the one who initiated the flaming/trolling by stopping by to just drop a frownie on us before leaving.

That having been said, this class isn't supposed to be particularly "themed" to a specific base class; it's supposed to be a more open-ended PrC that basically grants access to better armor for anybody (except the cleric, fighter, and paladin, who already have access to the best armor). Basically, any multi-classed (or sufficiently high-level single-classed) barbarian, bard, monk, ranger, rogue, sorceror or wizard, who doesn't mind slowing down for 1-3 levels in their primary progressions, gets maybe 2-3 AC out of this class.

I don't see any particular reason why it's "wrong" to have variable requirements for a PrC; there are plenty of official WotC PrCs that let you mix and match your way into qualifying for the PrC. You can qualify for Purple Dragon Knights by having either Diplomacy or Intimidate. You can qualify for Gladiator by having any two fighter feats. You can qualify for Loremaster by having any three metamagic or item creation feats.

The justification for a d8 "arcane" PrC? The Spellsword from the Complete Warrior. Though actually, the Armor Savant, IMO, is not particularly an "arcane" PrC, though it does serve as a convenient bridge from sorc/wiz to Eldritch Knight.

The Spellsword gets full BAB, d8 hit die, 2x skill points, and two good saves. My Armor Savant gets full BAB, d8 hit die, 4x skill points, and one good save. So far, fairly comparable.

The Spellsword gets spell progression every other level (5/10). The Armor Savant only gets spell progression (or a handful of tricks) at first level (1/3). The Spellsword reduces ASF by 10% at first level, and an additional 5% every other level after that. The Armor Savanat reduces ASF by 5% at first level, and an additional 5% each level after that.

The Spellsword gets some spell channeling abilities and a bonus feat. The Armor Savant gets to reduce ability armor restrictions a bit, and lower ACP and raise MDB.

The Armor Savant probably has slightly more useful abilities than a Spellsword if you compare the first 3 levels of Spellsword to all 3 levels of Armor Savant, but Armor Savant also has slightly higher requirements to enter, even if you take into account the different ways you could qualify.

Slagmire, you shouldn't insult others or their work, unless you really know what you're talking about. In fact, you shouldn't insult others period, unless they insult you first. In this instance, you're wrong for flaming Kary, while she was right for pointing out your display of extreme ignorance and disrespect when you made your original :nonono: for the sole purpose of trolling. It's just bad policy to hit and run.
Slagmire
12-14-03, 11:39 AM All right - I'm going to boil down what all is gained from all three levels of this PrC per the classes you mentioned. Keep in mind that this is a three level PrC.

Barbarian
Spells: Knows all cantrips, doesn't need to prepare any of them, and can cast three of them per day. That's better then Wizards and Sorcerers.
BAB and Saves: Progresses like normal (save for the inital +2 boost, but that's okay because it comes with PrCs anyway).
HP: Takes a knock off at a d8, but still - not too bad considering Rangers and Clerics gain this as well.
Skills: Same number gained per level, but has a lot more to select from (still okay).
Gained Proficiency: Medium and Heavy armor (already had martial weapons and shields). Will convey the problem with the abilities and shields in the Bard section
Special Abilities Mixed with Already gained Abilities: Not only do they still get an extra 10 feet in heavy armor (which is huge considering that it normally takes away movement), but they get a possible +3 AC due to the better Max Dex and better AC due to the armor itself, get a +3 in skill checks like Jump, Climb and Swim, and can use the spells gained from earlier in the PrC with a lessened arcane failure chance.

Bard
Spells: Gain only one level in spells. But he gets an extra 1-2 AC due to medium armor and maybe another 1-2 AC due to the increased Max Dex - and no spell failure chance at all.
BAB and Saves: Better BAB, and better Fort saves. (not too bad)
HP: A little better from the d6 they had.
Skills: Less Skills, Less Points (no problem)
Gained Proficiency: Gets to use a wider selection of weapons, can wear upto heavy (though it doesn't make sense for him to do so), but can use a tower shield now. But hey, let's not forget with the abilities already gained. He can now carry a regular heavy shield with the normal +2 AC, and no armor check penalty or spell failure chance.
Special Abilities: Already mentioned above really. It's not like Bardic Knowledge or Music was getting messed up by wearing armor.

Monk
Spells: See above with the Barbarian.
BAB and Saves: Better BAB, lesser Will and Ref saves.
HP: Same.
Skills: Same amount of points, though the ones available are a little different.
Gained Proficiency: Gains everything under the sun.
Special Abilites: Not only do they get the better AC from light armor, the increased Max Dex bonus, but they get the WIS bonus too. Hey, add a shield on them and they're sitting on 25 AC easy. Evasion really remains unchanged since I doubt a sane player would put on Medium armor on a monk with these abilites anyway (considering all the AC that'd be gutted).

Ranger
Spells: See above with the Barbarian (but has his divine spells as well)
BAB and Saves: Same BAB, lesser Ref saves.
HP: Same
Skills: Less points, less to choose from
Gained Proficiency: Medium and Heavy armor and Tower Shields
Special Abilities: Combat Styles in Medium armor? Evasion in Medium? Lessened Armor Check? Better AC?

*takes a big breath*
Rogue
Spells: See above with the Barbarian
BAB and Saves: Better BAB, Gains a better Fort save.
HP: Increased one hit die type
Skills: Halved completely on both ends, but make up for it by lessened armor checks in Medium armor
Gained Proficiency: All martial weapons, medium, heavy armor, and shields.
Special Abilities: Evasion in Medium armor. That's pretty much it besides the obvious AC increase. Probably the weakest class to select for this PrC.

Sorcerer and Wizard
Spells: Gain a level of spells
BAB and Saves: Double up on the BAB and better Fort saves.
HP: Doubled from a d4 to d8
Skills: Doubled again, with points and skills available.
Gained Proficiency: Wizard gets a ton added, but the Sorcerer is not far behind considering they just had simple weapons available.
Special Abilities: Added AC from armor, maybe a point or two from Dex (if there really was much of a change anyway)... but they can carry a large shield again for no spell failure... not to mention the lack of spell failure in light.

Whew! That was tiring... but do you see the problems with it now though? It's not just 2-3 AC really... it's a lot more then that. And they get that with three levels of work (some less then others too!). You mention Spellswords - but that's a 10 level PrC! As for the prereqs, that's fine that some other PrCs have that... I was trying to convey the fact that it was extremely wishy-washy.

That's why you got the :nonono: ... it really is that bad. If it was split up into more levels, or maybe refined a lot, then sure... but at that time... I couldn't fathom the words until Kary riled me.
Lotus Crane
12-14-03, 05:59 PM Due to the pre-reqs, it's impossible for single-classed barbarians, bards, rangers, sorcerors or wizards to become an Armor Savant (only a high-level monk or rogue could become one straight up), so their greater benefit from becoming an AS, is balanced out by the fact that they fall even further behind in any one progression.

For example, a sorc or wiz would have to take two levels of monk or rogue, to qualify for AS. Thus, a sample wiz 3/rog 2/arm 3 would be a level 8 character, yet is only 4th caster level and has only 2nd level spells. I think giving 2-3 AC is a fair trade for falling so far behind in a specific progression.

That being said, I altered the skills requirement for the Armor Savant from 8 ranks in either Balance or Concentration, to 6 ranks in both, which makes entry even more difficult than before.
Slagmire
12-14-03, 06:37 PM Originally posted by Lotus Crane
Due to the pre-reqs, it's impossible for single-classed barbarians, bards, rangers, sorcerors or wizards to become an Armor Savant (only a high-level monk or rogue could become one straight up), so their greater benefit from becoming an AS, is balanced out by the fact that they fall even further behind in any one progression.

For example, a sorc or wiz would have to take two levels of monk or rogue, to qualify for AS. Thus, a sample wiz 3/rog 2/arm 3 would be a level 8 character, yet is only 4th caster level and has only 2nd level spells. I think giving 2-3 AC is a fair trade for falling so far behind in a specific progression.

That being said, I altered the skills requirement for the Armor Savant from 8 ranks in either Balance or Concentration, to 6 ranks in both, which makes entry even more difficult than before.

I said it before, and I'll say it again... it's not just 2-3 AC because of the abilities granted.

You gain the following:
Increased AC from the upgraded armor (you're probably not going to gain a lot of AC from light to medium, but you'll gain it from the next point)
More AC due to a higher Max Dex Bonus
AC from shields (especially considering at level 3, they're pretty much free AC)

It's too damn powerful, I don't care what you say about prereqs (even though, yes, you obviously have to be multiclassing save for Monks - and that just becomes the most AC gained possible). I'm not saying it to be mean... I'm saying it so you can improve on this.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lotus Crane 12-12-03, 10:10 AM	What do you guys think? After seeing the Exotic Weapon Master and Spellsword in the Complete Warrior, I decided to try and make a little 3-level PrC, that gave multi-classed barbarians, bards, monks, rangers, sorcerors, swashbucklers, or wizards, a chance to get a little more AC, at the cost of slowing down progression in their primary abilities. ARMOR SAVANT Hit Die: d8. Requirements To qualify to become an armor savant, a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Base Attack Bonus: +5 Skills: Balance 6 ranks, Concentration 6 ranks. Feats: Combat Casting or Combat Reflexes, Light Armor Proficiency. Special: Must have at least two of the following abilities: ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells, Grace, Evasion, Mettle, Uncanny Dodge, Still Mind. Class Skills The armor savant’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha). Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier. Table: The Armor Savant Class Base Fort Ref Will Level Attack Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st +1 +2 +0 +0 A bit of magic, what's the difference 2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Medium armor proficiency, this isn't so bad 3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Heavy armor proficiency, I didn't know I was wearing armor Class Features All the following are Class Features of the armor savant prestige class. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Armor savants gain proficiency with martial weapons, and with shields (including tower shields). A Bit of Magic: At 1st level, an armor savant gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast spells before he became an armor savant, he must decide to which class he adds his first level of armor savant for the purpose of determining spells per day. If an armor savant does not have a previous arcane spellcasting class, then he may instead gain the spell-like ability to use three 0-level spells (cantrips) a day from the sorceror/wizard spell list. He knows every cantrip, but does not need to prepare them ahead of time, and can use the same spell for all three of his daily uses if he wants. What's the Difference: Beginning at 1st level, armor savants who have abilities that are restricted to medium armor, may use those abilities while wearing heavy armor. For example, a barbarian retains his fast movement even while wearing heavy armor. However, even if an armor savant has what's the difference, this isn't so bad, and I didn't know I was wearing armor, he cannot reduce his armor restrictions by more than category. For example, a bard could wear up to medium armor and ignore Arcane Spell Failure, but he could not wear heavy armor without incurring normal ASF. An armor savant with what's the difference also has his maximum Dexterity bonus to Armor Class while wearing armor or using a shield increased by 1, his Armor Check Penalty is reduced by 1, and his Arcane Spell Failure is reduced by 5% (this change does not stack with this isn't so bad or I didn't know I was wearing armor). Medium Armor Proficiency: At 2nd level, armor savants gain medium armor proficiency as a bonus feat. This isn't so Bad: Beginning at 2nd level, armor savants who have abilities that are restricted to light armor, may use those abilities while wearing medium armor. For example, a rogue retains his evasion even while wearing medium armor. However, even if an armor savant has what's the difference, this isn't so bad, and I didn't know I was wearing armor, he cannot reduce his armor restrictions by more than category. For example, a bard could wear up to medium armor and ignore Arcane Spell Failure, but he could not wear heavy armor without incurring normal ASF. An armor savant with this isn't so bad also has his maximum Dexterity bonus to Armor Class while wearing armor or using a shield increased by 2, his Armor Check Penalty is reduced by 2, and his Arcane Spell Failure is reduced by 10% (this change does not stack with what's the difference or I didn't know I was wearing armor). Heavy Armor Proficiency: At 3rd level, armor savants gain Heavy Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. I Didn't Know I was Wearing Armor: Beginning at 3rd level, armor savants who have abilities that are restricted to no armor, may use those abilities while wearing light armor. For example, a monk retains his Wisdom bonus to AC even while wearing light armor. However, even if an armor savant has what's the difference, this isn't so bad, and I didn't know I was wearing armor, he cannot reduce his armor restrictions by more than category. For example, a bard could wear up to medium armor and ignore Arcane Spell Failure, but he could not wear heavy armor without incurring normal ASF. An armor savant with I didn't know I was wearing armor also has his maximum Dexterity bonus to Armor Class while wearing armor or using a shield increased by 3, his Armor Check Penalty is reduced by 3, and his Arcane Spell Failure is reduced by 15% (this change does not stack with what's the difference or I didn't know I was wearing armor).
Kary Wanzer 12-12-03, 01:46 PM	I don't see any real problems here hon; sure being able to wear heavier armor without penalty is a powerful ability, but considering it takes 3 levels to get it all, and the requirements to enter, this PrC is either balanced, or maybe even underpowered. The most helpful use of the Armor Savant would probably be to help a wizard qualify for Eldritch Knight or Spellsword, who would suffer from multi-classing EXP penalties if she took a level in fighter instead. :w:
Slagmire 12-13-03, 03:09 PM	:nonono:
Kary Wanzer 12-13-03, 08:57 PM	Slagmire, all you give us is a frownie, without even the slightest explanation as to exactly what you think is wrong with the class, or why you think that way. That's just random flaming or trolling isn't it? It's a violation of the CoC (or at least bad manners) isn't it? You're being a major :censored: :censored: aren't you? Give us a little more respect and feedback please; there's absolutely no justification for just putting up a :nonono: and leaving. :b:
Slagmire 12-13-03, 11:39 PM	:smirk: All right you :censored: :censored: :censored:. If you want some explanation... Don't take this too bad, Lotus, I'm actually going to be serious during this portion before I unleash a bit more of my wrath upon this Kary wench... :) First off, there is no real set theme to your PrC. You can have either Balance or Concentration. You can have either Combat Casting or Combat Reflexes. Because of this decision, it's hard (almost impossible) to accurately determine what the character is going to be. If he's going to be a more fight-driven character, then the d8 for HD is all right, but it's very high considering that the arcane spell casters don't get that high of a die. The skill points gained per level also seem high to me, especially since it seems you're trying to focus on armor use. As for the saves, again - it really and truely depends on what type of PrC it's going to be, and I can't really make a clear cut idea on what this is supposed to be. The armor abilities that you put in this also seem very overpowering. I don't know about you, but the extra 10 feet gained with the Barbarian class is pretty damn nice, and when you've got another 2 or 3 AC (and I won't get into the arcane spell checks... even with the bard's ability to ignore it for light armor) it's too much. Basically - this really needed a lot more planning then it seemed it got. Some of the things in this aren't bad ideas, just too damn powerful... especially considering you're only going to progress three levels. ...now... Kary... shut your :censored: :censored: :censored: you:censored: :censored: :censored: ... ...man, I better stop this, I might get to like it. :angel:
Lotus Crane 12-14-03, 01:07 AM	Slagmire, I expect you to apologize to Kary; you're the one who initiated the flaming/trolling by stopping by to just drop a frownie on us before leaving. That having been said, this class isn't supposed to be particularly "themed" to a specific base class; it's supposed to be a more open-ended PrC that basically grants access to better armor for anybody (except the cleric, fighter, and paladin, who already have access to the best armor). Basically, any multi-classed (or sufficiently high-level single-classed) barbarian, bard, monk, ranger, rogue, sorceror or wizard, who doesn't mind slowing down for 1-3 levels in their primary progressions, gets maybe 2-3 AC out of this class. I don't see any particular reason why it's "wrong" to have variable requirements for a PrC; there are plenty of official WotC PrCs that let you mix and match your way into qualifying for the PrC. You can qualify for Purple Dragon Knights by having either Diplomacy or Intimidate. You can qualify for Gladiator by having any two fighter feats. You can qualify for Loremaster by having any three metamagic or item creation feats. The justification for a d8 "arcane" PrC? The Spellsword from the Complete Warrior. Though actually, the Armor Savant, IMO, is not particularly an "arcane" PrC, though it does serve as a convenient bridge from sorc/wiz to Eldritch Knight. The Spellsword gets full BAB, d8 hit die, 2x skill points, and two good saves. My Armor Savant gets full BAB, d8 hit die, 4x skill points, and one good save. So far, fairly comparable. The Spellsword gets spell progression every other level (5/10). The Armor Savant only gets spell progression (or a handful of tricks) at first level (1/3). The Spellsword reduces ASF by 10% at first level, and an additional 5% every other level after that. The Armor Savanat reduces ASF by 5% at first level, and an additional 5% each level after that. The Spellsword gets some spell channeling abilities and a bonus feat. The Armor Savant gets to reduce ability armor restrictions a bit, and lower ACP and raise MDB. The Armor Savant probably has slightly more useful abilities than a Spellsword if you compare the first 3 levels of Spellsword to all 3 levels of Armor Savant, but Armor Savant also has slightly higher requirements to enter, even if you take into account the different ways you could qualify. Slagmire, you shouldn't insult others or their work, unless you really know what you're talking about. In fact, you shouldn't insult others period, unless they insult you first. In this instance, you're wrong for flaming Kary, while she was right for pointing out your display of extreme ignorance and disrespect when you made your original :nonono: for the sole purpose of trolling. It's just bad policy to hit and run.
Slagmire 12-14-03, 11:39 AM	All right - I'm going to boil down what all is gained from all three levels of this PrC per the classes you mentioned. Keep in mind that this is a three level PrC. Barbarian Spells: Knows all cantrips, doesn't need to prepare any of them, and can cast three of them per day. That's better then Wizards and Sorcerers. BAB and Saves: Progresses like normal (save for the inital +2 boost, but that's okay because it comes with PrCs anyway). HP: Takes a knock off at a d8, but still - not too bad considering Rangers and Clerics gain this as well. Skills: Same number gained per level, but has a lot more to select from (still okay). Gained Proficiency: Medium and Heavy armor (already had martial weapons and shields). Will convey the problem with the abilities and shields in the Bard section Special Abilities Mixed with Already gained Abilities: Not only do they still get an extra 10 feet in heavy armor (which is huge considering that it normally takes away movement), but they get a possible +3 AC due to the better Max Dex and better AC due to the armor itself, get a +3 in skill checks like Jump, Climb and Swim, and can use the spells gained from earlier in the PrC with a lessened arcane failure chance. Bard Spells: Gain only one level in spells. But he gets an extra 1-2 AC due to medium armor and maybe another 1-2 AC due to the increased Max Dex - and no spell failure chance at all. BAB and Saves: Better BAB, and better Fort saves. (not too bad) HP: A little better from the d6 they had. Skills: Less Skills, Less Points (no problem) Gained Proficiency: Gets to use a wider selection of weapons, can wear upto heavy (though it doesn't make sense for him to do so), but can use a tower shield now. But hey, let's not forget with the abilities already gained. He can now carry a regular heavy shield with the normal +2 AC, and no armor check penalty or spell failure chance. Special Abilities: Already mentioned above really. It's not like Bardic Knowledge or Music was getting messed up by wearing armor. Monk Spells: See above with the Barbarian. BAB and Saves: Better BAB, lesser Will and Ref saves. HP: Same. Skills: Same amount of points, though the ones available are a little different. Gained Proficiency: Gains everything under the sun. Special Abilites: Not only do they get the better AC from light armor, the increased Max Dex bonus, but they get the WIS bonus too. Hey, add a shield on them and they're sitting on 25 AC easy. Evasion really remains unchanged since I doubt a sane player would put on Medium armor on a monk with these abilites anyway (considering all the AC that'd be gutted). Ranger Spells: See above with the Barbarian (but has his divine spells as well) BAB and Saves: Same BAB, lesser Ref saves. HP: Same Skills: Less points, less to choose from Gained Proficiency: Medium and Heavy armor and Tower Shields Special Abilities: Combat Styles in Medium armor? Evasion in Medium? Lessened Armor Check? Better AC? takes a big breath Rogue Spells: See above with the Barbarian BAB and Saves: Better BAB, Gains a better Fort save. HP: Increased one hit die type Skills: Halved completely on both ends, but make up for it by lessened armor checks in Medium armor Gained Proficiency: All martial weapons, medium, heavy armor, and shields. Special Abilities: Evasion in Medium armor. That's pretty much it besides the obvious AC increase. Probably the weakest class to select for this PrC. Sorcerer and Wizard Spells: Gain a level of spells BAB and Saves: Double up on the BAB and better Fort saves. HP: Doubled from a d4 to d8 Skills: Doubled again, with points and skills available. Gained Proficiency: Wizard gets a ton added, but the Sorcerer is not far behind considering they just had simple weapons available. Special Abilities: Added AC from armor, maybe a point or two from Dex (if there really was much of a change anyway)... but they can carry a large shield again for no spell failure... not to mention the lack of spell failure in light. Whew! That was tiring... but do you see the problems with it now though? It's not just 2-3 AC really... it's a lot more then that. And they get that with three levels of work (some less then others too!). You mention Spellswords - but that's a 10 level PrC! As for the prereqs, that's fine that some other PrCs have that... I was trying to convey the fact that it was extremely wishy-washy. That's why you got the :nonono: ... it really is that bad. If it was split up into more levels, or maybe refined a lot, then sure... but at that time... I couldn't fathom the words until Kary riled me.
Lotus Crane 12-14-03, 05:59 PM	Due to the pre-reqs, it's impossible for single-classed barbarians, bards, rangers, sorcerors or wizards to become an Armor Savant (only a high-level monk or rogue could become one straight up), so their greater benefit from becoming an AS, is balanced out by the fact that they fall even further behind in any one progression. For example, a sorc or wiz would have to take two levels of monk or rogue, to qualify for AS. Thus, a sample wiz 3/rog 2/arm 3 would be a level 8 character, yet is only 4th caster level and has only 2nd level spells. I think giving 2-3 AC is a fair trade for falling so far behind in a specific progression. That being said, I altered the skills requirement for the Armor Savant from 8 ranks in either Balance or Concentration, to 6 ranks in both, which makes entry even more difficult than before.
Slagmire 12-14-03, 06:37 PM	Originally posted by Lotus Crane Due to the pre-reqs, it's impossible for single-classed barbarians, bards, rangers, sorcerors or wizards to become an Armor Savant (only a high-level monk or rogue could become one straight up), so their greater benefit from becoming an AS, is balanced out by the fact that they fall even further behind in any one progression. For example, a sorc or wiz would have to take two levels of monk or rogue, to qualify for AS. Thus, a sample wiz 3/rog 2/arm 3 would be a level 8 character, yet is only 4th caster level and has only 2nd level spells. I think giving 2-3 AC is a fair trade for falling so far behind in a specific progression. That being said, I altered the skills requirement for the Armor Savant from 8 ranks in either Balance or Concentration, to 6 ranks in both, which makes entry even more difficult than before. I said it before, and I'll say it again... it's not just 2-3 AC because of the abilities granted. You gain the following: Increased AC from the upgraded armor (you're probably not going to gain a lot of AC from light to medium, but you'll gain it from the next point) More AC due to a higher Max Dex Bonus AC from shields (especially considering at level 3, they're pretty much free AC) It's too damn powerful, I don't care what you say about prereqs (even though, yes, you obviously have to be multiclassing save for Monks - and that just becomes the most AC gained possible). I'm not saying it to be mean... I'm saying it so you can improve on this.