armored mage or gish? [Archive] - Wizards Community

armored mage or gish? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
gotbrain
06-08-07, 11:43 AM Which is the best route to take, hexblade, duskblade, swiftblade, Eldritch knight or spell sword?

Can any of these wear armor and cast arcane spells? Obviously i would like to acheive the highest CL possible but I'm not as concerned with BAB.
Averroes
06-08-07, 11:54 AM The Runesmith in Races of Stone can wear heavy armor.
gotbrain
06-08-07, 12:23 PM The Runesmith in Races of Stone can wear heavy armor.

Does he use runes instead of spells? I assume a different spell list similar to an artificer's list. Is this a base class?
Averroes
06-08-07, 12:54 PM Yes he uses runes instead of spells so no somatic components. (Which is where arcane spell failure kicks in)
Its a PrC in Races of Stone. You have to be a dwarf and a class that prepares thier spells. Also profecent with Heavy armor. So a level as a cleric or something would cover that for you.
*edit* They have the same spell list as thier base class.

There are plenty of other ways to go about it.
An easy one if you just want to nuke is always the War Mage Base class.
RobbyPants
06-08-07, 01:22 PM Which is the best route to take, hexblade, duskblade, swiftblade, Eldritch knight or spell sword?

Can any of these wear armor and cast arcane spells? Obviously i would like to acheive the highest CL possible but I'm not as concerned with BAB.
Well, are you starting from level 1, or at a higher level? Different builds pay off better at different levels.

You can cast in light armor as a hexblade, but you won't get much in the way of spells, and it's a fairly weak class.

Duskblade also lacks a lot of good casting, but it is a solid damage-dealing class, at least up until the mid-levels. They can also cast in armor.

Swiftblade doesn't get the ability to cast in armor.

I'll lump Eldritch Knight and Spellsword into one here. They're both part of my favorite gish build: Wizard 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 3/Eldritch Knight 10. You could also swap out 5 levels of EK for 5 of Abjurant Champion. Anyway, this build gets you 17 caster levels, +17 BAB, and the ability to ignore 15% arcane spell failure. This is enough to cast in Twilight mithirl fullplate with no spell failure! You can have that by 10th level with this build. The problem is that this build is fairly weak until about 8th to 10th level.

Also, if you want a quick solution, play a Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVari antBattleSorcerer) from Unearthed Arcana. 3/4 BAB, alsmost sorcerer-like casting (they still get 9th level spells), and the ability to cast in light armor. You can take the Battle Caster feat to cast in heavier armor. This also combines well with two levels of paladin (if you don't mind the LG alignment). Adding your primary casting stat to all your saves is quite nice!
gotbrain
06-08-07, 02:06 PM Well, are you starting from level 1, or at a higher level? Different builds pay off better at different levels.

I will start at 1st level.

You can cast in light armor as a hexblade, but you won't get much in the way of spells, and it's a fairly weak class.

Duskblade also lacks a lot of good casting, but it is a solid damage-dealing class, at least up until the mid-levels. They can also cast in armor.

What kind of spells do they get? I'm not looking for blaster spells.

I'll lump Eldritch Knight and Spellsword into one here. They're both part of my favorite gish build: Wizard 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 3/Eldritch Knight 10. You could also swap out 5 levels of EK for 5 of Abjurant Champion. Anyway, this build gets you 17 caster levels, +17 BAB, and the ability to ignore 15% arcane spell failure. This is enough to cast in Twilight mithirl fullplate with no spell failure! You can have that by 10th level with this build. The problem is that this build is fairly weak until about 8th to 10th level.

Are you sure it's CL 17? 6 from wizard + 1 from SS + 9 from Ek = 16.

Also, if you want a quick solution, play a Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVari antBattleSorcerer) from Unearthed Arcana. 3/4 BAB, alsmost sorcerer-like casting (they still get 9th level spells), and the ability to cast in light armor. You can take the Battle Caster feat to cast in heavier armor. This also combines well with two levels of paladin (if you don't mind the LG alignment). Adding your primary casting stat to all your saves is quite nice!

This looks interesting though. Combine this with stalwart sorcerer FEAT and it may turn out pretty strong.
Averroes
06-08-07, 02:13 PM If you want utility and armor you can alway go Beguiler. They use light armor only, and becuase of thier skills you probally don't want to take Battle Caster for Med Armor.

The duskblade is mainly Blasting spells.
TaiSharShaidar
06-08-07, 02:15 PM Are the classes you listed the only options you have? If not then your best choice for an armored blaster is the Warmage. That’s what he was designed to do, and if you’re worried about utility, find a deity with some good domains to follow and take the Arcane Disciple feat to round out your spell selection. It works unbelievably well as long as you have at least 14 or 15 wisdom.
Gnarl
06-08-07, 02:30 PM Are you sure it's CL 17? 6 from wizard + 1 from SS + 9 from Ek = 16.

Spellswords get a +1 to caster level at every even level so it's +2.
gotbrain
06-08-07, 02:31 PM Well, are you starting from level 1, or at a higher level? Different builds pay off better at different levels.

You can cast in light armor as a hexblade, but you won't get much in the way of spells, and it's a fairly weak class.

Duskblade also lacks a lot of good casting, but it is a solid damage-dealing class, at least up until the mid-levels. They can also cast in armor.

Swiftblade doesn't get the ability to cast in armor.

I'll lump Eldritch Knight and Spellsword into one here. They're both part of my favorite gish build: Wizard 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 3/Eldritch Knight 10. You could also swap out 5 levels of EK for 5 of Abjurant Champion. Anyway, this build gets you 17 caster levels, +17 BAB, and the ability to ignore 15% arcane spell failure. This is enough to cast in Twilight mithirl fullplate with no spell failure! You can have that by 10th level with this build. The problem is that this build is fairly weak until about 8th to 10th level.

Also, if you want a quick solution, play a Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVari antBattleSorcerer) from Unearthed Arcana. 3/4 BAB, alsmost sorcerer-like casting (they still get 9th level spells), and the ability to cast in light armor. You can take the Battle Caster feat to cast in heavier armor. This also combines well with two levels of paladin (if you don't mind the LG alignment). Adding your primary casting stat to all your saves is quite nice!

Are the classes you listed the only options you have? If not then your best choice for an armored blaster is the Warmage. That’s what he was designed to do, and if you’re worried about utility, find a deity with some good domains to follow and take the Arcane Disciple feat to round out your spell selection. It works unbelievably well as long as you have at least 14 or 15 wisdom.

No I'm not limited, those are just the ones that interested me. I didn't know there were so many choices. But as i stated I'm not looking for a blaster type so i left warmage out; i really dont like their spell list.

I did forget about beguiler; I'll have to check that out again.

I dont have the books for duskblade, hexblade or beguiler so what i know about them is limited to forum reading.

I did think about a 4 level dip into spellsword to bypass ASF but that combined with 1 level of figher and EK caps me at CL 16.

I'm not sure if the ability to wear armor is worth the trade off. Is it better to just use mage armor and use a large mithral shield?
gotbrain
06-08-07, 02:32 PM Spellswords get a +1 to caster level at every even level so it's +2.

Yes and he said spell sword 3, so on ss 2nd +1 CL, right?
windscar18
06-08-07, 02:35 PM Well, there's always Abjurant Champion, which makes his shield basically worth that of armor. In any case, Greater Mage Armor lasts on an hour/level basis and gives a +6 Armor Bonus to AC (which is basically armor) for the price of one 3rd level slot, so armor isn't THAT important. In any case, with the sole exception of Eldritch Knight, where you can just burn some feats, all of the other gish PrCs will pretty much require some levels in a fighting class to qualify for it at a reasonably low level, unless you decide to take the Hexblade or Duskblade route.

In any case, I'll go over the options.

Hexblade: Hexblade is widely considered to be highly weak. There is a semi-official fix for the Hexblade, however, though I don't have the link. Yes, they can cast spells while in light armor.
Duskblade: Great damage dealers, but not much more than that, and a good deal of the arcanist's power is from utility. A reasonable replacement for a fighter though.
Swiftblade: Swiftblade ends up making you lose 4 spells levels if you decide to go for it, and does not give you any additional abilities to cast in any armor. However, it has extremely powerful abilities that make up for the lack of armor, and there is still Greater Mage Armor anyway.
Eldritch knight: Since Eldritch Knight's requirements are very easily obtained, most people use Eldritch Knight as the easiest way to procure caster levels while keeping up your BAB. It gives nothing outside of 1 bonus feat, 9 out of 10 caster levels, and a full base attack bonus, however, regulating this to a splash class, usually.
Spellsword: This class is great as a splash class, but you end up giving 5 caster levels to get to the end of this class. Moreover, all of its abilities require reducing arcane failure chance and spell storage, so it's really situational as to how much you want to wear that heavy armor. As it stands right now, there is always Greater Mage Armor.

Remember, a +1 mithral twilight chain shirt, while expensive at the beginning of your career, has 0% failure chance.
gotbrain
06-08-07, 03:14 PM Well, there's always Abjurant Champion, which makes his shield basically worth that of armor. In any case, Greater Mage Armor lasts on an hour/level basis and gives a +6 Armor Bonus to AC (which is basically armor) for the price of one 3rd level slot, so armor isn't THAT important. In any case, with the sole exception of Eldritch Knight, where you can just burn some feats, all of the other gish PrCs will pretty much require some levels in a fighting class to qualify for it at a reasonably low level, unless you decide to take the Hexblade or Duskblade route.

In any case, I'll go over the options.

Hexblade: Hexblade is widely considered to be highly weak. There is a semi-official fix for the Hexblade, however, though I don't have the link. Yes, they can cast spells while in light armor.
Duskblade: Great damage dealers, but not much more than that, and a good deal of the arcanist's power is from utility. A reasonable replacement for a fighter though.
Swiftblade: Swiftblade ends up making you lose 4 spells levels if you decide to go for it, and does not give you any additional abilities to cast in any armor. However, it has extremely powerful abilities that make up for the lack of armor, and there is still Greater Mage Armor anyway.
Eldritch knight: Since Eldritch Knight's requirements are very easily obtained, most people use Eldritch Knight as the easiest way to procure caster levels while keeping up your BAB. It gives nothing outside of 1 bonus feat, 9 out of 10 caster levels, and a full base attack bonus, however, regulating this to a splash class, usually.
Spellsword: This class is great as a splash class, but you end up giving 5 caster levels to get to the end of this class. Moreover, all of its abilities require reducing arcane failure chance and spell storage, so it's really situational as to how much you want to wear that heavy armor. As it stands right now, there is always Greater Mage Armor.

Remember, a +1 mithral twilight chain shirt, while expensive at the beginning of your career, has 0% failure chance.

Thanks Windscar that was a good summary.

I've heard of mithral twilight a lot on the forum but honestly i dont know how easy that is to obtain. I really dont want to have my whole character dependent on something that I may never be able to obtain, DM willing.

EK is the easiest option giving me wiz6/F1/EK10/AC3 CL = 18 and BAB = 17 and a wide variety of spell selection but no armor and only one good save (FORT). HD = 6d4+4d10+10d6 (ave 62).

A 4 lvl dip into spell sword gives me wiz6/F1/SS4/EK9 CL = 16 and BAB = 16 plus ASF bypass of 15% and two good saves (FORT and WILL). HD = 6d4+1d10+4d8+9d6 (ave 60).

Or if i went the SB route, wiz6/SB9/AC5 CL = 17 and BAB = 17 no armor but some cool abilities and one good save (WILL). HD = 6d4+9d6+5d10 (ave 64).

You could switch wizard out with sorcerer and take the stalwart sorcerer feat for and extra 12 hps, weapon prof. and weapon focus and it will only impact the last build, denying access to 9th level spells.
RobbyPants
06-08-07, 03:16 PM What kind of spells do they get? I'm not looking for blaster spells.
I'd have to look at the exact list to be sure. It's primarlily de-buffs for the Hexblade, if I remember correctly. The Duskblade gets primarily damage dealing spells (although not a lot of area of effect spells). The big lack in this list is the utility spells, which are so much of what makes a good wizard.

Are you sure it's CL 17? 6 from wizard + 1 from SS + 9 from Ek = 16.
The third level of SpellSword also grants a caster level. So the total is:

Wizard 6 6
Fighter 1 0
Spellsword 3 2
Eldritch Knight 10 9
_______________________
Total 17

I do like this build a lot, but I don't know that I'd recommend it at level 1. Again, it will take until about 8th to 10th level (level 1 to 3 spellsword) before it starts to pay off. However, the earlier you can get your hands on a Twilight mithril shirt, the better, as it has 0% arcane spell failure. If you persue this build, I'd say go Wizard 1, Fighter 1, and then five more levels of Wizard. Focus on some buffing spells early on, like Enlarge Person. Once you get more powerful, you can work on some blasting, if you want.

I did think about a 4 level dip into spellsword to bypass ASF but that combined with 1 level of figher and EK caps me at CL 16.
A three level dip is all you need, if you want to get Ignore ASF. At level 3, you can ignore 15%. This is enough for Twilight mithirl fullplate. Fullplate has an ASF of 35%, minus 10% for mithril, and minus 10% more for Twilight. Also, you won't lose another casterlevel for 4th level of spellsword (getting you 17 caster levels). Of course, you do get the channel spell ability at 4th level, but I don't know that I'd sacrifice a precisous caster level for it...

EDIT:
What book are you using for SpellSword? The Tome & The Blood or The Complete Arcane? The latter is the 3.5, up to date version. I only ask, because you say you need 4 levels for ignore ASF. The 3.5 version only grants this ability on the odd levels (along with spell casting). Also, I note the discrepencies in caster level totals...

I'm not sure if the ability to wear armor is worth the trade off. Is it better to just use mage armor and use a large mithral shield?
If you get a shield, make sure it's an Animated shield. You won't want to be holding anything larger than a buckler. This is for two reasons:

You need a free hand to cast spells with a somatic component.
You will be much better off in melee with a good two-handed weapon (most likely a greatsword or greataxe). You'll bet better damage and more milage with the Power Attack feat.

Also, just use Eldritch Knight as filler. That's all it is. A good way to get full BAB, and a decent caster progression. If you're planning on taking Abjurant Champion and Eldritch Knight, take AC all the way to 5th level, and only use EK to fill in the rest. AC levels are in every way superior to EK levels. Also, in the first three levels Spellsword is in every way superior to EK.

To answer your question about Twilight, it's a +1 enchantment found both in the PHBII and BoED. Due to it being a +1 ability, it shouldn't be too hard to come across in a typical campaign. Just ask your DM in advance. ;)
windscar18
06-08-07, 03:49 PM Yeah, I recently used a +1 Mithral Twilight Chain Shirt in one of my campaigns. If your DM goes by the Wealth by Level chart, you should be able to procure one at 4th level if you concentrate most of your money on it (it's 5100 gp total).
gotbrain
06-08-07, 04:06 PM EDIT:
What book are you using for SpellSword? The Tome & The Blood or The Complete Arcane? The latter is the 3.5, up to date version. I only ask, because you say you need 4 levels for ignore ASF. The 3.5 version only grants this ability on the odd levels (along with spell casting). Also, I note the discrepencies in caster level totals...

I'm the Tome and Blood version which i know is 3.0 but i wasn't sure if it was that different. Apparently it is. By the way i have Complete Arcane and it's not in there.

If you get a shield, make sure it's an Animated shield. You won't want to be holding anything larger than a buckler. This is for two reasons:

You need a free hand to cast spells with a somatic component.
You will be much better off in melee with a good two-handed weapon (most likely a greatsword or greataxe). You'll bet better damage and more milage with the Power Attack feat.

Good point. It seems impossible to get an AC as good as a melee type since they can wear armor; armor 8 + enchantment 5 + sheild 2 + enchantment 5 = +20 to AC. Compare that to my mage armor +4 :weep:
windscar18
06-08-07, 04:10 PM I'm the Tome and Blood version which i know is 3.0 but i wasn't sure if it was that different. Apparently it is. By the way i have Complete Arcane and it's not in there.

Spellsword is in Complete Warrior.

And anyway, you can get as good AC as a warrior. It'll just be on a more limited basis (temporary buffs in other words).
Gnaeus
06-08-07, 04:32 PM If you are going the Eldrich Knight or Spellsword route you can cast in armor until you get there by picking a lot of spells with no Somatic components. The line of Power Word spells in Races of the Dragon stand out, also Blindness, Blur, Displacement, and a bunch of others in SpC.
The_Shaman
06-08-07, 05:46 PM Don't forget the UA battle sorcerer. 1 less spell known/slot, but you can cast in light armor (medium with armored caster), medium BAB and d8. It can work well with some gishes, too - especially abjurant champion (like you care about mage armor not being an abjuration with a mithral full plate).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gotbrain 06-08-07, 11:43 AM	Which is the best route to take, hexblade, duskblade, swiftblade, Eldritch knight or spell sword? Can any of these wear armor and cast arcane spells? Obviously i would like to acheive the highest CL possible but I'm not as concerned with BAB.
Averroes 06-08-07, 11:54 AM	The Runesmith in Races of Stone can wear heavy armor.
gotbrain 06-08-07, 12:23 PM	The Runesmith in Races of Stone can wear heavy armor. Does he use runes instead of spells? I assume a different spell list similar to an artificer's list. Is this a base class?
Averroes 06-08-07, 12:54 PM	Yes he uses runes instead of spells so no somatic components. (Which is where arcane spell failure kicks in) Its a PrC in Races of Stone. You have to be a dwarf and a class that prepares thier spells. Also profecent with Heavy armor. So a level as a cleric or something would cover that for you. edit They have the same spell list as thier base class. There are plenty of other ways to go about it. An easy one if you just want to nuke is always the War Mage Base class.
RobbyPants 06-08-07, 01:22 PM	Which is the best route to take, hexblade, duskblade, swiftblade, Eldritch knight or spell sword? Can any of these wear armor and cast arcane spells? Obviously i would like to acheive the highest CL possible but I'm not as concerned with BAB. Well, are you starting from level 1, or at a higher level? Different builds pay off better at different levels. You can cast in light armor as a hexblade, but you won't get much in the way of spells, and it's a fairly weak class. Duskblade also lacks a lot of good casting, but it is a solid damage-dealing class, at least up until the mid-levels. They can also cast in armor. Swiftblade doesn't get the ability to cast in armor. I'll lump Eldritch Knight and Spellsword into one here. They're both part of my favorite gish build: Wizard 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 3/Eldritch Knight 10. You could also swap out 5 levels of EK for 5 of Abjurant Champion. Anyway, this build gets you 17 caster levels, +17 BAB, and the ability to ignore 15% arcane spell failure. This is enough to cast in Twilight mithirl fullplate with no spell failure! You can have that by 10th level with this build. The problem is that this build is fairly weak until about 8th to 10th level. Also, if you want a quick solution, play a Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVari antBattleSorcerer) from Unearthed Arcana. 3/4 BAB, alsmost sorcerer-like casting (they still get 9th level spells), and the ability to cast in light armor. You can take the Battle Caster feat to cast in heavier armor. This also combines well with two levels of paladin (if you don't mind the LG alignment). Adding your primary casting stat to all your saves is quite nice!
gotbrain 06-08-07, 02:06 PM	Well, are you starting from level 1, or at a higher level? Different builds pay off better at different levels. I will start at 1st level. You can cast in light armor as a hexblade, but you won't get much in the way of spells, and it's a fairly weak class. Duskblade also lacks a lot of good casting, but it is a solid damage-dealing class, at least up until the mid-levels. They can also cast in armor. What kind of spells do they get? I'm not looking for blaster spells. I'll lump Eldritch Knight and Spellsword into one here. They're both part of my favorite gish build: Wizard 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 3/Eldritch Knight 10. You could also swap out 5 levels of EK for 5 of Abjurant Champion. Anyway, this build gets you 17 caster levels, +17 BAB, and the ability to ignore 15% arcane spell failure. This is enough to cast in Twilight mithirl fullplate with no spell failure! You can have that by 10th level with this build. The problem is that this build is fairly weak until about 8th to 10th level. Are you sure it's CL 17? 6 from wizard + 1 from SS + 9 from Ek = 16. Also, if you want a quick solution, play a Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVari antBattleSorcerer) from Unearthed Arcana. 3/4 BAB, alsmost sorcerer-like casting (they still get 9th level spells), and the ability to cast in light armor. You can take the Battle Caster feat to cast in heavier armor. This also combines well with two levels of paladin (if you don't mind the LG alignment). Adding your primary casting stat to all your saves is quite nice! This looks interesting though. Combine this with stalwart sorcerer FEAT and it may turn out pretty strong.
Averroes 06-08-07, 02:13 PM	If you want utility and armor you can alway go Beguiler. They use light armor only, and becuase of thier skills you probally don't want to take Battle Caster for Med Armor. The duskblade is mainly Blasting spells.
TaiSharShaidar 06-08-07, 02:15 PM	Are the classes you listed the only options you have? If not then your best choice for an armored blaster is the Warmage. That’s what he was designed to do, and if you’re worried about utility, find a deity with some good domains to follow and take the Arcane Disciple feat to round out your spell selection. It works unbelievably well as long as you have at least 14 or 15 wisdom.
Gnarl 06-08-07, 02:30 PM	Are you sure it's CL 17? 6 from wizard + 1 from SS + 9 from Ek = 16. Spellswords get a +1 to caster level at every even level so it's +2.
gotbrain 06-08-07, 02:31 PM	Well, are you starting from level 1, or at a higher level? Different builds pay off better at different levels. You can cast in light armor as a hexblade, but you won't get much in the way of spells, and it's a fairly weak class. Duskblade also lacks a lot of good casting, but it is a solid damage-dealing class, at least up until the mid-levels. They can also cast in armor. Swiftblade doesn't get the ability to cast in armor. I'll lump Eldritch Knight and Spellsword into one here. They're both part of my favorite gish build: Wizard 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 3/Eldritch Knight 10. You could also swap out 5 levels of EK for 5 of Abjurant Champion. Anyway, this build gets you 17 caster levels, +17 BAB, and the ability to ignore 15% arcane spell failure. This is enough to cast in Twilight mithirl fullplate with no spell failure! You can have that by 10th level with this build. The problem is that this build is fairly weak until about 8th to 10th level. Also, if you want a quick solution, play a Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVari antBattleSorcerer) from Unearthed Arcana. 3/4 BAB, alsmost sorcerer-like casting (they still get 9th level spells), and the ability to cast in light armor. You can take the Battle Caster feat to cast in heavier armor. This also combines well with two levels of paladin (if you don't mind the LG alignment). Adding your primary casting stat to all your saves is quite nice! Are the classes you listed the only options you have? If not then your best choice for an armored blaster is the Warmage. That’s what he was designed to do, and if you’re worried about utility, find a deity with some good domains to follow and take the Arcane Disciple feat to round out your spell selection. It works unbelievably well as long as you have at least 14 or 15 wisdom. No I'm not limited, those are just the ones that interested me. I didn't know there were so many choices. But as i stated I'm not looking for a blaster type so i left warmage out; i really dont like their spell list. I did forget about beguiler; I'll have to check that out again. I dont have the books for duskblade, hexblade or beguiler so what i know about them is limited to forum reading. I did think about a 4 level dip into spellsword to bypass ASF but that combined with 1 level of figher and EK caps me at CL 16. I'm not sure if the ability to wear armor is worth the trade off. Is it better to just use mage armor and use a large mithral shield?
gotbrain 06-08-07, 02:32 PM	Spellswords get a +1 to caster level at every even level so it's +2. Yes and he said spell sword 3, so on ss 2nd +1 CL, right?
windscar18 06-08-07, 02:35 PM	Well, there's always Abjurant Champion, which makes his shield basically worth that of armor. In any case, Greater Mage Armor lasts on an hour/level basis and gives a +6 Armor Bonus to AC (which is basically armor) for the price of one 3rd level slot, so armor isn't THAT important. In any case, with the sole exception of Eldritch Knight, where you can just burn some feats, all of the other gish PrCs will pretty much require some levels in a fighting class to qualify for it at a reasonably low level, unless you decide to take the Hexblade or Duskblade route. In any case, I'll go over the options. Hexblade: Hexblade is widely considered to be highly weak. There is a semi-official fix for the Hexblade, however, though I don't have the link. Yes, they can cast spells while in light armor. Duskblade: Great damage dealers, but not much more than that, and a good deal of the arcanist's power is from utility. A reasonable replacement for a fighter though. Swiftblade: Swiftblade ends up making you lose 4 spells levels if you decide to go for it, and does not give you any additional abilities to cast in any armor. However, it has extremely powerful abilities that make up for the lack of armor, and there is still Greater Mage Armor anyway. Eldritch knight: Since Eldritch Knight's requirements are very easily obtained, most people use Eldritch Knight as the easiest way to procure caster levels while keeping up your BAB. It gives nothing outside of 1 bonus feat, 9 out of 10 caster levels, and a full base attack bonus, however, regulating this to a splash class, usually. Spellsword: This class is great as a splash class, but you end up giving 5 caster levels to get to the end of this class. Moreover, all of its abilities require reducing arcane failure chance and spell storage, so it's really situational as to how much you want to wear that heavy armor. As it stands right now, there is always Greater Mage Armor. Remember, a +1 mithral twilight chain shirt, while expensive at the beginning of your career, has 0% failure chance.
gotbrain 06-08-07, 03:14 PM	Well, there's always Abjurant Champion, which makes his shield basically worth that of armor. In any case, Greater Mage Armor lasts on an hour/level basis and gives a +6 Armor Bonus to AC (which is basically armor) for the price of one 3rd level slot, so armor isn't THAT important. In any case, with the sole exception of Eldritch Knight, where you can just burn some feats, all of the other gish PrCs will pretty much require some levels in a fighting class to qualify for it at a reasonably low level, unless you decide to take the Hexblade or Duskblade route. In any case, I'll go over the options. Hexblade: Hexblade is widely considered to be highly weak. There is a semi-official fix for the Hexblade, however, though I don't have the link. Yes, they can cast spells while in light armor. Duskblade: Great damage dealers, but not much more than that, and a good deal of the arcanist's power is from utility. A reasonable replacement for a fighter though. Swiftblade: Swiftblade ends up making you lose 4 spells levels if you decide to go for it, and does not give you any additional abilities to cast in any armor. However, it has extremely powerful abilities that make up for the lack of armor, and there is still Greater Mage Armor anyway. Eldritch knight: Since Eldritch Knight's requirements are very easily obtained, most people use Eldritch Knight as the easiest way to procure caster levels while keeping up your BAB. It gives nothing outside of 1 bonus feat, 9 out of 10 caster levels, and a full base attack bonus, however, regulating this to a splash class, usually. Spellsword: This class is great as a splash class, but you end up giving 5 caster levels to get to the end of this class. Moreover, all of its abilities require reducing arcane failure chance and spell storage, so it's really situational as to how much you want to wear that heavy armor. As it stands right now, there is always Greater Mage Armor. Remember, a +1 mithral twilight chain shirt, while expensive at the beginning of your career, has 0% failure chance. Thanks Windscar that was a good summary. I've heard of mithral twilight a lot on the forum but honestly i dont know how easy that is to obtain. I really dont want to have my whole character dependent on something that I may never be able to obtain, DM willing. EK is the easiest option giving me wiz6/F1/EK10/AC3 CL = 18 and BAB = 17 and a wide variety of spell selection but no armor and only one good save (FORT). HD = 6d4+4d10+10d6 (ave 62). A 4 lvl dip into spell sword gives me wiz6/F1/SS4/EK9 CL = 16 and BAB = 16 plus ASF bypass of 15% and two good saves (FORT and WILL). HD = 6d4+1d10+4d8+9d6 (ave 60). Or if i went the SB route, wiz6/SB9/AC5 CL = 17 and BAB = 17 no armor but some cool abilities and one good save (WILL). HD = 6d4+9d6+5d10 (ave 64). You could switch wizard out with sorcerer and take the stalwart sorcerer feat for and extra 12 hps, weapon prof. and weapon focus and it will only impact the last build, denying access to 9th level spells.
RobbyPants 06-08-07, 03:16 PM	What kind of spells do they get? I'm not looking for blaster spells. I'd have to look at the exact list to be sure. It's primarlily de-buffs for the Hexblade, if I remember correctly. The Duskblade gets primarily damage dealing spells (although not a lot of area of effect spells). The big lack in this list is the utility spells, which are so much of what makes a good wizard. Are you sure it's CL 17? 6 from wizard + 1 from SS + 9 from Ek = 16. The third level of SpellSword also grants a caster level. So the total is: Wizard 6 6 Fighter 1 0 Spellsword 3 2 Eldritch Knight 10 9 _______________________ Total 17 I do like this build a lot, but I don't know that I'd recommend it at level 1. Again, it will take until about 8th to 10th level (level 1 to 3 spellsword) before it starts to pay off. However, the earlier you can get your hands on a Twilight mithril shirt, the better, as it has 0% arcane spell failure. If you persue this build, I'd say go Wizard 1, Fighter 1, and then five more levels of Wizard. Focus on some buffing spells early on, like Enlarge Person. Once you get more powerful, you can work on some blasting, if you want. I did think about a 4 level dip into spellsword to bypass ASF but that combined with 1 level of figher and EK caps me at CL 16. A three level dip is all you need, if you want to get Ignore ASF. At level 3, you can ignore 15%. This is enough for Twilight mithirl fullplate. Fullplate has an ASF of 35%, minus 10% for mithril, and minus 10% more for Twilight. Also, you won't lose another casterlevel for 4th level of spellsword (getting you 17 caster levels). Of course, you do get the channel spell ability at 4th level, but I don't know that I'd sacrifice a precisous caster level for it... EDIT: What book are you using for SpellSword? The Tome & The Blood or The Complete Arcane? The latter is the 3.5, up to date version. I only ask, because you say you need 4 levels for ignore ASF. The 3.5 version only grants this ability on the odd levels (along with spell casting). Also, I note the discrepencies in caster level totals... I'm not sure if the ability to wear armor is worth the trade off. Is it better to just use mage armor and use a large mithral shield? If you get a shield, make sure it's an Animated shield. You won't want to be holding anything larger than a buckler. This is for two reasons: You need a free hand to cast spells with a somatic component. You will be much better off in melee with a good two-handed weapon (most likely a greatsword or greataxe). You'll bet better damage and more milage with the Power Attack feat. Also, just use Eldritch Knight as filler. That's all it is. A good way to get full BAB, and a decent caster progression. If you're planning on taking Abjurant Champion and Eldritch Knight, take AC all the way to 5th level, and only use EK to fill in the rest. AC levels are in every way superior to EK levels. Also, in the first three levels Spellsword is in every way superior to EK. To answer your question about Twilight, it's a +1 enchantment found both in the PHBII and BoED. Due to it being a +1 ability, it shouldn't be too hard to come across in a typical campaign. Just ask your DM in advance. ;)
windscar18 06-08-07, 03:49 PM	Yeah, I recently used a +1 Mithral Twilight Chain Shirt in one of my campaigns. If your DM goes by the Wealth by Level chart, you should be able to procure one at 4th level if you concentrate most of your money on it (it's 5100 gp total).
gotbrain 06-08-07, 04:06 PM	EDIT: What book are you using for SpellSword? The Tome & The Blood or The Complete Arcane? The latter is the 3.5, up to date version. I only ask, because you say you need 4 levels for ignore ASF. The 3.5 version only grants this ability on the odd levels (along with spell casting). Also, I note the discrepencies in caster level totals... I'm the Tome and Blood version which i know is 3.0 but i wasn't sure if it was that different. Apparently it is. By the way i have Complete Arcane and it's not in there. If you get a shield, make sure it's an Animated shield. You won't want to be holding anything larger than a buckler. This is for two reasons: You need a free hand to cast spells with a somatic component. You will be much better off in melee with a good two-handed weapon (most likely a greatsword or greataxe). You'll bet better damage and more milage with the Power Attack feat. Good point. It seems impossible to get an AC as good as a melee type since they can wear armor; armor 8 + enchantment 5 + sheild 2 + enchantment 5 = +20 to AC. Compare that to my mage armor +4 :weep:
windscar18 06-08-07, 04:10 PM	I'm the Tome and Blood version which i know is 3.0 but i wasn't sure if it was that different. Apparently it is. By the way i have Complete Arcane and it's not in there. Spellsword is in Complete Warrior. And anyway, you can get as good AC as a warrior. It'll just be on a more limited basis (temporary buffs in other words).
Gnaeus 06-08-07, 04:32 PM	If you are going the Eldrich Knight or Spellsword route you can cast in armor until you get there by picking a lot of spells with no Somatic components. The line of Power Word spells in Races of the Dragon stand out, also Blindness, Blur, Displacement, and a bunch of others in SpC.
The_Shaman 06-08-07, 05:46 PM	Don't forget the UA battle sorcerer. 1 less spell known/slot, but you can cast in light armor (medium with armored caster), medium BAB and d8. It can work well with some gishes, too - especially abjurant champion (like you care about mage armor not being an abjuration with a mithral full plate).