Armored Mage, Warmage and Wizard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Armored Mage, Warmage and Wizard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
natural_selection
07-30-06, 10:56 AM If a warmage with light armor multiclasses into a wizard, does he loose the benefits of armored mage when he casts spells from his spellbook as a wizard?

If you are of the opinion that he looses the benefits of armored mage, what do you say about a spell like "magic missile". Casted as a warmage flavoured spell you could use armored mage and hence no spell failiure, casted as a wizard flavoured spell there would be an arcane spell failiure.

This contradiction in my opinion leads to the only conclusion that armored mage is applicable to a multiclassed wizard.
runestar
07-30-06, 11:08 AM If you are of the opinion that he looses the benefits of armored mage, what do you say about a spell like "magic missile". Casted as a warmage flavoured spell you could use armored mage and hence no spell failiure, casted as a wizard flavoured spell there would be an arcane spell failiure.

Has it occured to you that a warmage might cast magic missile differently from a wizard? Perhaps the warmage version of magic missile has simpler somatic components which enables it to be cast in light armour without penalty. But the wizard version is more complex. And the wizard's style of spellcasting is incompatible with that of the warmage, thus he cannot use a wizard spell slot to cast a magic missile as a warmage.

The wizard will suffer ASF when casting magic missile from his wizard spell slot but not when casting it as a warmage. :)
kelvinaw273
07-30-06, 11:36 AM I would have agreed with you if I hadn't seen the post about the warmage with +2 Mithral plate armour and an AC of 28 at 8th level. It was such an overexploitation of the rules that it made me feel slightly ill ....

Armoured casting for arcane magic is very suspect, it removes one of the major setbacks to the arcane classes. You could rule that warmage/wizard training is incompatible, just to force out the issue, otherwise many wizards will take a level in warmage just to wear armour while warmages may take a level in wizard just to get the utility spells. Or you could just roll with it ....
natural_selection
07-30-06, 12:10 PM I would have agreed with you if I hadn't seen the post about the warmage with +2 Mithral plate armour and an AC of 28 at 8th level.

How could he achieve this. +2 plate armor just gives AC of 20.
CaoSlayer
07-30-06, 12:31 PM I would have agreed with you if I hadn't seen the post about the warmage with +2 Mithral plate armour and an AC of 28 at 8th level. It was such an overexploitation of the rules that it made me feel slightly ill ....

Armoured casting for arcane magic is very suspect, it removes one of the major setbacks to the arcane classes. You could rule that warmage/wizard training is incompatible, just to force out the issue, otherwise many wizards will take a level in warmage just to wear armour while warmages may take a level in wizard just to get the utility spells. Or you could just roll with it ....

And a level 8 battle sorcerer can alter self into lizardman/troglodite then use displacement-blink-improved invisibility-mayor mirror image to become tougher like use the not so bad mithril breastplate..

Also at least in the bard case that have the feature worded that only works with spells of the class, you cant dip a level of warmage for a wizard with armor or cast wizard spells without ASF, so that thing dont work unless the warmage have been poorly worded.
ksbsnowowl
07-30-06, 12:42 PM I have the Warmage class description sitting right in front of me. It clearly says:Armored Mage: Normally, armor of any type interferes...This training does not extend to medium or heavier armors, nor to heavy shields. Nor does this ability apply to spells gained from a different spellcasting class.
Seerow
07-30-06, 01:13 PM Also realize +2 full plate will cost 14,500 GP. An 8th level character's wealth is 27,000 GP. Rule of the thumb is to not spend more than a FOURTH of your total wealth on any one item. Here you're spending more than half.

And I too want to know how it's AC28. Even if he had 16 dex that's AC23. Where's the other 5 coming from? It's not like the Warmage has buffing spells to improve his AC (like every other caster on the planet). If it's some magic item, like a Ring of Deflection or Amulet of Natural Armor, then you're now spending either 3/4 or all of your gold, just on AC.
DarkSorcerer
07-30-06, 07:20 PM Also realize +2 full plate will cost 14,500 GP. An 8th level character's wealth is 27,000 GP. Rule of the thumb is to not spend more than a FOURTH of your total wealth on any one item. Here you're spending more than half.

And I too want to know how it's AC28. Even if he had 16 dex that's AC23. Where's the other 5 coming from? It's not like the Warmage has buffing spells to improve his AC (like every other caster on the planet). If it's some magic item, like a Ring of Deflection or Amulet of Natural Armor, then you're now spending either 3/4 or all of your gold, just on AC.

1. Whats wrong with a Sorc spending all his gold on AC? Sounds smart to me.

2. Thats assuming the character has never stumbled upon an exceptional treasure haul from a an encounter. A couple good rolls on the magic item tables from that black dragon at level 7 is going to really help out. Even if traded for only half value in credit, a single item can really equip the party. And what if there is a cleric/wizard in the party doing the enchanting?
Thiez
07-30-06, 07:44 PM My party always spends most of their money on one or two objects. I as a DM can't think of a sane reason not to let them do that... I mean, it's not like saying "No you can't have that item. I know they sell it here, and I know you have the money, but you may not buy it because that would be against the rules" will convince them (or myself).
runestar
07-30-06, 11:19 PM And I too want to know how it's AC28. Even if he had 16 dex that's AC23. Where's the other 5 coming from? It's not like the Warmage has buffing spells to improve his AC (like every other caster on the planet). If it's some magic item, like a Ring of Deflection or Amulet of Natural Armor, then you're now spending either 3/4 or all of your gold, just on AC.
Alter self into a trogodyte gives you its +6 Natural armour bonus. :) You gain claws and stench as well, but those are of secondary importance. ;)
Seerow
07-30-06, 11:24 PM Alter self into a trogodyte gives you its +6 Natural armour bonus. :) You gain claws and stench as well, but those are of secondary importance. ;)

Too bad we're talking about a Warmage and not a Sorcerer, and Warmage can't use alter self, huh?.
The Great Hippo
07-30-06, 11:24 PM It's been a long time since I read Warmage, but from what I remember, he gets his own specific list of spells. I might be wrong, but if I'm not... Simple answer:

No.

Spell-Caster lists don't stack. A Paladin who switches over to Ranger doesn't get to count his Paladin levels or spells as Ranger spells, even if they turn out to be the same spells.
runestar
07-30-06, 11:54 PM Too bad we're talking about a Warmage and not a Sorcerer, and Warmage can't use alter self, huh?.
A warmage can't cast alter self normally, but that does not mean he can't access the spell from outside sources. ;)

UMDing a scroll, activating a ring of spell storing...or taking the arcane schooling regional feat so you can use spell trigger items as though you were either a wiz/sorc or bard...it takes some work, but far from impossible. :)
CaoSlayer
07-31-06, 04:39 AM A warmage can't cast alter self normally, but that does not mean he can't access the spell from outside sources. ;)

UMDing a scroll, activating a ring of spell storing...or taking the arcane schooling regional feat so you can use spell trigger items as though you were either a wiz/sorc or bard...it takes some work, but far from impossible. :)

Still being more expensible and risky.. isnt the same being able to cast a spell for "free" with a longer duration and higher DC that using charges of an item.. the caster could aford with the money of the wand a rod of metamagic getting more power with the same money.

And war mages get UMD?
travellersside
07-31-06, 04:55 AM war mages get UMD?

Even if they don't (and I doubt they do) they can still buy it cross-class, just like anyone else (I love giving it to wizards with familiars - guess why). Still, since it's a Cha-based skill, a warmage won't get much of a stat bonus on it, will he?...
Wakazashi
07-31-06, 10:25 AM :bump:
EvilVegan
07-31-06, 12:17 PM Arcane spell failure is retarded.

It isn't balancing

It isn't logical

It doesn't affect the game at all if you remove it.

OH NOES the Wizard with d4 Hit Die is hard to hit! (Oh wait, no thats not armor, its just a ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, bracers of armor, cloak of displacement, shield spell, mirror image. . .)

Anyway, it is a house rule to say that spells that appear on both the warmage and the wizard list would not suffer the ASF, but it isn't anything thats going to make the game unbalanced (I'd say it would balance wizards/sorcerers back up with the other casters). Cleric can still cast all his spells while wearing full plate from level 1 (if they can get full plate). Druid can still do so as a shambling mound. And they have more HP and better BAB to boot.
Vestigial_Thumb
07-31-06, 12:50 PM Still, since it's a Cha-based skill, a warmage won't get much of a stat bonus on it, will he?...
The Warmage's casting stat is Cha, so yes, he does get a big bonus. So do Sorcerers.
Anthriel
07-31-06, 01:42 PM Arcane spell failure is retarded.

It isn't balancing

It isn't logical

It doesn't affect the game at all if you remove it.

Uh ... it does affect the game.

Thanks to the rule, all players who want their mages to wear armor for whatever reason (be it flavor, or some Fighter/Wizard) turn out sucky. So they don't exist. And well, isn't taking options from the player what the whole game is about?

The funny thing is, this paragraph works both as irony and as a serious answer.
You cannot expect beginners to realize that Wizards don't need or want armor, so powergaming newbs will probably go for the Wizard in armor. Sure, they won't be powerful, but they will be there. And unless they are few and far in between, they ruin the Wizard flavor.

Granted, if you are talking about experienced players, ASF is entirely pointless. Which is why groups which think about it will almost invariably ax it.

No one but beginners and idiots play by the RAW.
Vestigial_Thumb
07-31-06, 01:53 PM And well, isn't taking options from the player what the whole game is about?
Depends on if it annoys him if and when you do.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
natural_selection 07-30-06, 10:56 AM	If a warmage with light armor multiclasses into a wizard, does he loose the benefits of armored mage when he casts spells from his spellbook as a wizard? If you are of the opinion that he looses the benefits of armored mage, what do you say about a spell like "magic missile". Casted as a warmage flavoured spell you could use armored mage and hence no spell failiure, casted as a wizard flavoured spell there would be an arcane spell failiure. This contradiction in my opinion leads to the only conclusion that armored mage is applicable to a multiclassed wizard.
runestar 07-30-06, 11:08 AM	If you are of the opinion that he looses the benefits of armored mage, what do you say about a spell like "magic missile". Casted as a warmage flavoured spell you could use armored mage and hence no spell failiure, casted as a wizard flavoured spell there would be an arcane spell failiure. Has it occured to you that a warmage might cast magic missile differently from a wizard? Perhaps the warmage version of magic missile has simpler somatic components which enables it to be cast in light armour without penalty. But the wizard version is more complex. And the wizard's style of spellcasting is incompatible with that of the warmage, thus he cannot use a wizard spell slot to cast a magic missile as a warmage. The wizard will suffer ASF when casting magic missile from his wizard spell slot but not when casting it as a warmage. :)
kelvinaw273 07-30-06, 11:36 AM	I would have agreed with you if I hadn't seen the post about the warmage with +2 Mithral plate armour and an AC of 28 at 8th level. It was such an overexploitation of the rules that it made me feel slightly ill .... Armoured casting for arcane magic is very suspect, it removes one of the major setbacks to the arcane classes. You could rule that warmage/wizard training is incompatible, just to force out the issue, otherwise many wizards will take a level in warmage just to wear armour while warmages may take a level in wizard just to get the utility spells. Or you could just roll with it ....
natural_selection 07-30-06, 12:10 PM	I would have agreed with you if I hadn't seen the post about the warmage with +2 Mithral plate armour and an AC of 28 at 8th level. How could he achieve this. +2 plate armor just gives AC of 20.
CaoSlayer 07-30-06, 12:31 PM	I would have agreed with you if I hadn't seen the post about the warmage with +2 Mithral plate armour and an AC of 28 at 8th level. It was such an overexploitation of the rules that it made me feel slightly ill .... Armoured casting for arcane magic is very suspect, it removes one of the major setbacks to the arcane classes. You could rule that warmage/wizard training is incompatible, just to force out the issue, otherwise many wizards will take a level in warmage just to wear armour while warmages may take a level in wizard just to get the utility spells. Or you could just roll with it .... And a level 8 battle sorcerer can alter self into lizardman/troglodite then use displacement-blink-improved invisibility-mayor mirror image to become tougher like use the not so bad mithril breastplate.. Also at least in the bard case that have the feature worded that only works with spells of the class, you cant dip a level of warmage for a wizard with armor or cast wizard spells without ASF, so that thing dont work unless the warmage have been poorly worded.
ksbsnowowl 07-30-06, 12:42 PM	I have the Warmage class description sitting right in front of me. It clearly says:Armored Mage: Normally, armor of any type interferes...This training does not extend to medium or heavier armors, nor to heavy shields. Nor does this ability apply to spells gained from a different spellcasting class.
Seerow 07-30-06, 01:13 PM	Also realize +2 full plate will cost 14,500 GP. An 8th level character's wealth is 27,000 GP. Rule of the thumb is to not spend more than a FOURTH of your total wealth on any one item. Here you're spending more than half. And I too want to know how it's AC28. Even if he had 16 dex that's AC23. Where's the other 5 coming from? It's not like the Warmage has buffing spells to improve his AC (like every other caster on the planet). If it's some magic item, like a Ring of Deflection or Amulet of Natural Armor, then you're now spending either 3/4 or all of your gold, just on AC.
DarkSorcerer 07-30-06, 07:20 PM	Also realize +2 full plate will cost 14,500 GP. An 8th level character's wealth is 27,000 GP. Rule of the thumb is to not spend more than a FOURTH of your total wealth on any one item. Here you're spending more than half. And I too want to know how it's AC28. Even if he had 16 dex that's AC23. Where's the other 5 coming from? It's not like the Warmage has buffing spells to improve his AC (like every other caster on the planet). If it's some magic item, like a Ring of Deflection or Amulet of Natural Armor, then you're now spending either 3/4 or all of your gold, just on AC. 1. Whats wrong with a Sorc spending all his gold on AC? Sounds smart to me. 2. Thats assuming the character has never stumbled upon an exceptional treasure haul from a an encounter. A couple good rolls on the magic item tables from that black dragon at level 7 is going to really help out. Even if traded for only half value in credit, a single item can really equip the party. And what if there is a cleric/wizard in the party doing the enchanting?
Thiez 07-30-06, 07:44 PM	My party always spends most of their money on one or two objects. I as a DM can't think of a sane reason not to let them do that... I mean, it's not like saying "No you can't have that item. I know they sell it here, and I know you have the money, but you may not buy it because that would be against the rules" will convince them (or myself).
runestar 07-30-06, 11:19 PM	And I too want to know how it's AC28. Even if he had 16 dex that's AC23. Where's the other 5 coming from? It's not like the Warmage has buffing spells to improve his AC (like every other caster on the planet). If it's some magic item, like a Ring of Deflection or Amulet of Natural Armor, then you're now spending either 3/4 or all of your gold, just on AC. Alter self into a trogodyte gives you its +6 Natural armour bonus. :) You gain claws and stench as well, but those are of secondary importance. ;)
Seerow 07-30-06, 11:24 PM	Alter self into a trogodyte gives you its +6 Natural armour bonus. :) You gain claws and stench as well, but those are of secondary importance. ;) Too bad we're talking about a Warmage and not a Sorcerer, and Warmage can't use alter self, huh?.
The Great Hippo 07-30-06, 11:24 PM	It's been a long time since I read Warmage, but from what I remember, he gets his own specific list of spells. I might be wrong, but if I'm not... Simple answer: No. Spell-Caster lists don't stack. A Paladin who switches over to Ranger doesn't get to count his Paladin levels or spells as Ranger spells, even if they turn out to be the same spells.
runestar 07-30-06, 11:54 PM	Too bad we're talking about a Warmage and not a Sorcerer, and Warmage can't use alter self, huh?. A warmage can't cast alter self normally, but that does not mean he can't access the spell from outside sources. ;) UMDing a scroll, activating a ring of spell storing...or taking the arcane schooling regional feat so you can use spell trigger items as though you were either a wiz/sorc or bard...it takes some work, but far from impossible. :)
CaoSlayer 07-31-06, 04:39 AM	A warmage can't cast alter self normally, but that does not mean he can't access the spell from outside sources. ;) UMDing a scroll, activating a ring of spell storing...or taking the arcane schooling regional feat so you can use spell trigger items as though you were either a wiz/sorc or bard...it takes some work, but far from impossible. :) Still being more expensible and risky.. isnt the same being able to cast a spell for "free" with a longer duration and higher DC that using charges of an item.. the caster could aford with the money of the wand a rod of metamagic getting more power with the same money. And war mages get UMD?
travellersside 07-31-06, 04:55 AM	war mages get UMD? Even if they don't (and I doubt they do) they can still buy it cross-class, just like anyone else (I love giving it to wizards with familiars - guess why). Still, since it's a Cha-based skill, a warmage won't get much of a stat bonus on it, will he?...
Wakazashi 07-31-06, 10:25 AM	:bump:
EvilVegan 07-31-06, 12:17 PM	Arcane spell failure is retarded. It isn't balancing It isn't logical It doesn't affect the game at all if you remove it. OH NOES the Wizard with d4 Hit Die is hard to hit! (Oh wait, no thats not armor, its just a ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, bracers of armor, cloak of displacement, shield spell, mirror image. . .) Anyway, it is a house rule to say that spells that appear on both the warmage and the wizard list would not suffer the ASF, but it isn't anything thats going to make the game unbalanced (I'd say it would balance wizards/sorcerers back up with the other casters). Cleric can still cast all his spells while wearing full plate from level 1 (if they can get full plate). Druid can still do so as a shambling mound. And they have more HP and better BAB to boot.
Vestigial_Thumb 07-31-06, 12:50 PM	Still, since it's a Cha-based skill, a warmage won't get much of a stat bonus on it, will he?... The Warmage's casting stat is Cha, so yes, he does get a big bonus. So do Sorcerers.
Anthriel 07-31-06, 01:42 PM	Arcane spell failure is retarded. It isn't balancing It isn't logical It doesn't affect the game at all if you remove it. Uh ... it does affect the game. Thanks to the rule, all players who want their mages to wear armor for whatever reason (be it flavor, or some Fighter/Wizard) turn out sucky. So they don't exist. And well, isn't taking options from the player what the whole game is about? The funny thing is, this paragraph works both as irony and as a serious answer. You cannot expect beginners to realize that Wizards don't need or want armor, so powergaming newbs will probably go for the Wizard in armor. Sure, they won't be powerful, but they will be there. And unless they are few and far in between, they ruin the Wizard flavor. Granted, if you are talking about experienced players, ASF is entirely pointless. Which is why groups which think about it will almost invariably ax it. No one but beginners and idiots play by the RAW.
Vestigial_Thumb 07-31-06, 01:53 PM	And well, isn't taking options from the player what the whole game is about? Depends on if it annoys him if and when you do.