Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Roxlimn 09-06-06, 02:02 AM	Polaris and I were having this discussion on the Cleric Ref save thread. I was commenting that Monks aren't now as MAD as they used to be on account of being able to lower Wis in favor of using armor. Since this thread will focus on builds, it would seem to be more appropriate for the Character Optimization Boards (and in a way it is), but since this deals with the basic conception about what the Monk class is capable of doing, I felt that it would generate more interest in the general Classes boards. The basic assumption is the use of Decisive Strike instead of Flurry of Blows, and Improved Grapple instead of Stunning Fist. There are other options. Different Monk options in OA and elsewhere will allow the Monk to take feats other than Improved Grapple, but we'll be going with that for now. The build is merely instructive, not truly optimized. Human Monk 1 S 15 D 15 Co 14 W 10 I 10 Ch 8 Feats: Improved Grapple, Power Attack, Cleave Class Features: Decisive Strike, Unarmed Strike 1d6 Equipment: Leather Armor, Handaxe, Quarterstaff, Javelins, etc. AC 14 HP 10 BAB: +0 Melee AB +2 Melee: Attack +2 unarmed strike 1d6+2 or Quarterstaff 1d6+3 Full Attack: as above or +0 unarmed strike 2d6+4 or +0 Quarterstaff 2d6+6 Ranged AB +2 Fort: +4 Ref: +4 Will: +2 Speed: 30 Skills: Hide 4 ranks, Move Silently 4 ranks, Spot 4 ranks, Listen 4 ranks, Tumble 4 ranks Human Monk, Level 7 S 16 D 15 Co 14 W 10 I 10 Ch 8 Feats: Improved Grapple, Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Weapon Focus: unarmed strike, Vexing Flanker Class Features: Decisive Strike, Unarmed Strike: 1d8, Evasion, Still Mind, Ki Strike (magic), Slow Fall 30 feet, Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body (14) Equipment: +2 Mithral Shirt, +1 Mithral Heavy Shield, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Mighty Fists +1, mw Quarterstaff, mw light crossbow AC: 23 HP: 49 BAB: +5 Melee: Attack +10 unarmed strike 1d8+4, Full Attack: +9 unarmed strike 2d8+8 Ranged: +8 mw light crossbow, 1d8, 19-20 x2 Fort: +7 Ref: +7 Will: +5 (+7 vs. enchantment spells and effects) Speed: 30 Skills: Hide 10 ranks, Move Silently 10 ranks, Spot 10 ranks, Listen 5 ranks, Jump 5 ranks, Tumble 10 ranks The build seems to be an eminently viable character, and probably a superior frontline combatant to the conventional monk builds. Vexing Flanker gives you an extra +4 AB for Power Attack flanks, which you can subsequently multiply on a Decisive Strike. Thus, on a flank: Melee: Attack +14, unarmed strike, 1d8+4, Full attack +12 unarmed strike 2d8+12 I don't believe that typical monk builds are capable of this kind of frontline performance. The point in this exercise is to demonstrate that Monks, with the new options in PHB2, are not as MAD as they have traditionally been. Which attribute you invest in will dictate your optimal choices later on, but that's true of all classes.
Polaris 09-06-06, 02:30 AM	Rox, As I said on the other thread, it's an interesting thought and it's clear you've put some thought into it. Certainly the armored varient (or even using armor like you suggest above) seems to be a solid way to make a low level Monk a lot more surivivable than it's traditionally been. The thing is that I don't see how the Monk as you illustrated above is really any better than a fighter or (especially) a Barbarian with much the same stats. Certainly a great-axe (d12), great-sword (2d6) or even longsword (d8) seems to be much better than the unarmed attacks this Monk can carry out. I am concerned (like I said on that other thread) that you are giving up far too much in high level touch AC and movement which is what makes the Monk suvivable at high levels (and IMHO is the only melee class that is really suvivable at high levels). JMHO -Polaris Edit PS: I guess what I am saying, is that I wonder if you are giving up too much at high levels for admittedly a much stronger build at low levels.
AkaKageWarrior 09-06-06, 02:40 AM	please help: what does MAD stand for? regards, AKW
Polaris 09-06-06, 02:46 AM	please help: what does MAD stand for? regards, AKW MAD-Multiple Attribute Dependency It started as a derisive complaint about the old 3.0 psion but has since gained wider use on these boards. It states that a class requires multiple high attributes at very high levels in order to be effective. It is considered to be a serious weakness in a class that has it. -Polaris
Roxlimn 09-06-06, 02:51 AM	Polaris: Better than a Fighter or Barbarian at straight up damage dealing? Certainly not. It would be a gross disservice to the Fighter if I could come up with a better frontline battler with a monk than a Fighter build can. However, the 5-7th level builds are absolutely comparable to an equally leveled Fighter as a general frontline warrior. The AC is in range, and the damage is as well. A Greataxe and a Greatsword will surely do more damage, but THF Fighters and Barbarians of this level will have to tank their respective ACs if they opt for THF style. Aside from that, the 7th level build also has special tricks up its sleeve. It can grapple and resist grapples especially well (with Improved Grapple). Good for fighting those nasty swallowers and constrictors. The 7th level Armored Monk can also move around more easily - 30 speed and a high Tumble modifier sees to that. It even has Improved Trip, for dealing with the occasional enemy who's actually vulnerable to it. Certainly not something you'd just randomly pick up as a Sword and Board Fighter, and thus an added benefit to the Armored Monk. Save profile is quite decent without adding items to the build, and if you notice, I haven't optimized the Armored Monk build at all. The item list is about 4000 gp short and you could mix up and change the feats for better synergy. Improved Natural Attack at level 6, for instance, instead of Vexing Flanker, boosts unarmed damage to 2d6 instead of 1d8. That's 4d6+8 or 22 average damage on a Full Attack routine. Definitely comparable to what a similar Sword and Board Fighter can do. I am concerned (like I said on that other thread) that you are giving up far too much in high level touch AC and movement which is what makes the Monk suvivable at high levels (and IMHO is the only melee class that is really suvivable at high levels). The Dex bonus to touch AC remains, and will remain better for this lightly armored warrior than a heavily armored Fighter, or even a Medium Armored Barbarian. If you like, multiclassing Fighter first (or in campaigns where monk multiclassing is relaxed, whenever) allows you to pick up martial weapon proficiencies, and shield proficiencies as well as Shield Ward, to boost that touch AC up to the levels you prefer. Movement can't be helped, but honestly, Monk movement isn't all that, anyway. At higher levels, nothing short of flying will really suffice, and for that you'll need magical items, even if you're a monk. Even with all that, there's nothing that prevents this Monk from just taking off his shield and armor and getting all that movement back, if that's all he really wants (if he's trying to escape from a fast enemy, for example).
Polaris 09-06-06, 03:09 AM	Rox, The big problem is that the Monk only has a 3/4 bab. By 7th level, the Monk has already lost out on +2 vs the Fighter or Barbarian. The fighter will have many more bonus feats than the Monk and so could (if he wanted) have Improved Grapple as well. The Barbarian can make up the difference with rage. The other difficulty I see is that your monk still doesn't have the strength to match the melee specialists (nor should he....I agree), doesn't have the Dex to really get the most from his armor (unlike the Fighter or Barbarian who can get the most from their heavier armor)....and a Barbarian in Medium armor still moves at 30'. Worse the Monk has no armor proficiencies whatsoever which means the Fighter and Barb if they want full speed at mid levels (starting at seven) can get mithril breast plate and the Monk really can't afford that extra hit in attacks from the ACP. In addition to all that, you seem to be relying on a good Con to make up the difference in hit-points at least to some degree, but that's not going to happen either. As for the Monk special abilities, really they only become really good once you hit 11th level (and esp 13th). As for the movement, I can see the Monk dropping the shield (Move Action), but getting rid of even light armor is no easy task in combat if he really needs that movement........ Basically, I see this as trading low level combat effectiveness for high level ineffectiveness by making the high level Monk much more vunerable than he otherwise would be. I contend that at very high levels, the main function of a meleer is to provide interference for the spellcasters, and thus survivability (and at high levels this means high saves and touch AC) is much more important. Just saying. -Polaris
AkaKageWarrior 09-06-06, 04:39 AM	MAD-Multiple Attribute Dependency It started as a derisive complaint about the old 3.0 psion but has since gained wider use on these boards. It states that a class requires multiple high attributes at very high levels in order to be effective. It is considered to be a serious weakness in a class that has it. -Polaris thanks! :) AKW
Dark1ord 09-06-06, 07:56 AM	where do the armor/shield proficiencies come from? just wondering (haven't seen the other thread, in case it's explained there).
runestar 09-06-06, 08:03 AM	He doesn't need them, since the armour he uses does not have any armour check penalties, which means there are no drawbacks to wearing them, even if he is not proficient with them.:) Are there any substitution monk classes which lets you swap out your monk fast movement? Seeing as to how it is disabled in armour as well...:P
Roxlimn 09-06-06, 10:52 AM	Polaris: The big problem is that the Monk only has a 3/4 bab. By 7th level, the Monk has already lost out on +2 vs the Fighter or Barbarian. The fighter will have many more bonus feats than the Monk and so could (if he wanted) have Improved Grapple as well. The Barbarian can make up the difference with rage. There is no point to making a Fighter with Monk bonus feats. You might as well take Monk. By 7th level, this Monk has had 3 bonus feats - Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, and Combat Reflexes. At 7th level, a Fighter will have acquired only 4 - just one more bonus feat than this Monk. Taking all those feats in an attempt to replicate the capabilities of Armored Monk ver1 will yield a weaker warrior on a Fighter chassis. It's true that a Monk will have lost 2 BAB on the Fighter and Barbarian by level 7, which translates not only into lower final AB, but also less attacks on a full attack, but he compensates somewhat for the full attack weakness with Decisive Strike, and he has advantages the others do not have. In addition to all that, you seem to be relying on a good Con to make up the difference in hit-points at least to some degree, but that's not going to happen either. As for the Monk special abilities, really they only become really good once you hit 11th level (and esp 13th). Not at all. Being immune to disease is a good bonus. Still Mind for the +2 to Will saves is also quite good. Wholeness of Body is worse than actual HP, but still usable. Evasion on a Good Ref save is really good, not something you can usually expect from a warrior type - it helps to conserve his HP against the inevitable Ref save area type damage. Armored Monk doesn't lose out on any class features at the higher levels. He can make use of Diamond Body, Abundant Step, and Diamond Soul just as much as the next Monk. As for the movement, I can see the Monk dropping the shield (Move Action), but getting rid of even light armor is no easy task in combat if he really needs that movement........ If you really need the movement option, there are armors you can summon and dismiss with magic. Personally, I would just go with a flying option. Basically, I see this as trading low level combat effectiveness for high level ineffectiveness by making the high level Monk much more vunerable than he otherwise would be. Only in terms of AC, which as you say isn't as much of a factor at the high levels. The build can discard or replace the armor and shield at any time - it's not built into the character's core functions. In terms of comparability to a Fighter type at level 7, you can post whichever build you prefer and we can compare concrete stuff. Remember, though, that Armored Monk ver1 isn't optimized and is under-equipped - more of a prototype than a finished product. As long as he's in the ballpark of performance, it should be enough. I contend that at very high levels, the main function of a meleer is to provide interference for the spellcasters, and thus survivability (and at high levels this means high saves and touch AC) is much more important. Touch AC should not be a problem. Owing to the conventional monk's MAD, he probably wouldn't be able to push that Wis up very high anyway. The Shield Ward option (multiclass one level Fighter and get Shield Ward) easily compensates for whatever AC the monk loses by dumping Wis and gaining armor. At level 18, the class AC bonus is only +3, and the Wis bonus should be, what? +6? Shield Ward on a +4 Heavy Shield (and the prerequisite Shield Specialization feat) grants you +7 touch AC, losing only 2 points on that count. And it also provides the same bonus on defensive grapple checks, trips, disarms, bull rushes, and overruns, all of which are very strong threats at the mid to high levels. I daresay that that's a reasonable exchange for 2 points of touch AC. YMMV. PS: Worse the Monk has no armor proficiencies whatsoever which means the Fighter and Barb if they want full speed at mid levels (starting at seven) can get mithril breast plate and the Monk really can't afford that extra hit in attacks from the ACP. Mithral Breastplate alone costs 4 200 gp, for the same AC as a +1 chain shirt. The gap narrows as the wealth per level limits increase. At level 7, the WPL is 19 000. The most sensible level of enhancement for a Mithral Breastplate at this level is +2, which means that your armor is sucking up 8200 gp of your WPL, for a +7 armor bonus. The +2 Mithral Shirt gives a +6 armor bonus at a cost of 5100. The resulting cost of 3100 gp for a 1 point armor bonus advantage is above the usual base cost of a point of AC at this level - 2000 gp for a ring of protection +1. You might be able to create an overall superior combatant with a Mithral Breastplate armored Fighter at level 7, but I rather doubt it. Personally, I would prefer to emphasize the armor advantage and go for the full plate.
jamesnero 09-06-06, 01:02 PM	Im going to say shou disciple and leave it at that. It can be found in forgotten realms: unapproachable east. I think maybe you should look at how that works OP it might help with the general mechanics of the build.
Roxlimn 09-06-06, 01:20 PM	I own that book, and I already know about Shou Disciple. On the average, it doesn't do much if you're already more or less free to multiclass monk, or if you've already started off with a Fighter level. The most significant thing it does is grant you access to light armor and martial weapons, and a level of any warrior class will do that. It also advances your unarmed damage, but if it's just a level, who cares? A level of Fighter will allow the Armored Monk to take Mithral Breasplate and use normal material shields (to shave off 1k). The freedom to flurry is nice and everything, but ignoring the issue altogether by using Decisive Strike is really much better. If I really need to, I could take Serpent Steel Strike and Decisive Strike with a Longspear. In addition, you can't use a shield with Shou Disciple's class abilities, and you have to invest in Dodge as a prerequisite (yuck). As if tanking your skill points and delaying your special class features weren't enough of a hit.
Dark1ord 09-06-06, 02:58 PM	He doesn't need them, since the armour he uses does not have any armour check penalties, which means there are no drawbacks to wearing them, even if he is not proficient with them.:)thanks! I totally didn't see that. :)
runestar 09-06-06, 11:15 PM	Interesting take, I must admit. I would never have thought such a thing possible...:) What is this decisive strike ability again?
Roxlimn 09-06-06, 11:25 PM	Alternate class ability, replaces flurry of blows, to be found in PHB2.
PhaedrusXY 09-07-06, 12:14 AM	I don't really know about the Decisive Strike feat, as I don't own the PHB2, but why argue fighter vs. monk, when you can have both? Multiclassing with fighter a bit adds tremendously to the build I think. Why stop at light armor? Just play it like a front-line combatant, sack Dex and Wis, wear heavy armor and a use shield (if you want... but I wouldn't). Ftr2/Monk6 only loses 2 points of attack, has vastly better saves, and the same number of feats as fighter 8. It got Improved Trip without the prereqs, which reduces the MAD on a trip-based fighter greatly and gives this build an "extra" feat over the single-classed fighter. Use a guisarme, and kick/headbutt people that come within 5' of you. The lost BAB isn't a factor in resolving your trip attempts, either. A fighter/barbarian would have a bit better trip bonus, but the fighter/monk has more feats (and hence more options) and better saves.
runestar 09-07-06, 12:18 AM	Alternate class ability, replaces flurry of blows, to be found in PHB2. I was hoping for a summary of what said ability actually does, if anyone will be so gracious. Also, can anyone confirm if warforged are automatically considered proficient with their body armour feats? This got me thinking of a warforged monk with the adamantine body feat and I was wondering if they suffered the armour check penalties for not being proficient with it.:(
Roxlimn 09-07-06, 12:32 AM	PhaedrusXY: Ftr2/Monk6 only loses 2 points of attack, has vastly better saves, and the same number of feats as fighter 8. It got Improved Trip without the prereqs, which reduces the MAD on a trip-based fighter greatly and gives this build an "extra" feat over the single-classed fighter. Use a guisarme, and kick/headbutt people that come within 5' of you. The lost BAB isn't a factor in resolving your trip attempts, either. It would be eminently doable, I agree, but it won't be exactly the same creature anymore. For one thing, wearing anything heavier than light armor removes Evasion and trashes the skill modifier slate, particularly for Tumble, and the loss of Dex tanks touch AC. It'll probably be also effective, but it's not the same build. Feel free to post another concept build of "Armored Monk" on this thread. :) runestar: Also, can anyone confirm if warforged are automatically considered proficient with their body armour feats? This got me thinking of a warforged monk with the adamantine body feat and I was wondering if they suffered the armour check penalties for not being proficient with it. No proficiencies are required for composite plating feats. Sorry about the Decisive Strike thing, though. Posting it would be copyright infringement.
Moon-Lancer 09-07-06, 12:34 AM	well, what i dont get is, how is the monk using decisive strike while using armor? Wouldent it just work like flurry of blows and become useless using armor. I know it doesent go right out and say it, but it does replace flurry of blows, so wouldent it have the same downfalls?
Roxlimn 09-07-06, 12:47 AM	Not unless it says so. Alternate class abilities often allow for different limitations and different concepts. I don't see any reason why it should be different for the monk, other than that it's a bit silly. Then again, you can make it even sillier by giving said monk Shield Throw. Look, it's Captain Breland and his Mighty Shield! All that aside, I think that this simply shows how much AC a monk really needs to function as a combatant. The class AC bonus ought to really be brought up some 4-5 points across the board.
runestar 09-07-06, 12:55 AM	Sorry about the Decisive Strike thing, though. Posting it would be copyright infringement. I don't expect you to reproduce the ability here word for word, but surely some hint of its purpose could be had?:weep:
Seerow 09-07-06, 12:56 AM	Basically as a full round action you make 1 or 2 attacks for double damage.
Polaris 09-07-06, 01:11 AM	I don't expect you to reproduce the ability here word for word, but surely some hint of its purpose could be had?:weep: You can say in general what something is as long as you cite the source and it's fair use. This certainly is such a case. Runstar, Decisive strike is not a feat but rather a replacement class ability for the monk (see page 51 of the PHB II). You replace your flurry of blows ability for the ability to make one attack at -2 for double damage with your unarmed strike. This improves to -1 at 5th(monk) level, and -0 at 9th (monk level). At 11th level or higher (monk), you can make two such attacks. -Polaris