Armoured spear fighter/greek warrior classes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Armoured spear fighter/greek warrior classes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shiny_Dragon
02-06-06, 07:26 AM Hi All,

Does anyone know if there are any classes/prestige classes available to build a greco-roman warrior type fighter? I ask as one of my players (FR campaign set in Chessenta) is wanting to play a hoplite/Greek infantry style fighter. But it seems to me that using short spears, javelins and shortswords for RP reasons is making him a bit underpowered compared to the rest of the party (a psychic warrior and a fighter-cleric). In particular, while he is very good at hitting things he's not doing a lot of damage.

Im keen to keep the characters flavour, as is the player, so I want to avoid the easy solution of giving him a greatsword/greataxe.

Thanks.
Rivelstraz
02-06-06, 07:36 AM I don't remember any PrC suitable for this, but there are some feats in some of the Complete X saga that grants you AC bonus if you fight with a shield and a light weapon. Perhaps he can find some more of that kind.
Save-vs-DM
02-06-06, 07:54 AM Dragon Issue 338 has a fighter variant known as the "Pikeman." This is pretty close to what you're looking for, I think. It includes a style feat that's easy to obtain called Shield and Pike Style.

Another thing you might consider is letting him have a Weapon of Legacy (provided you have the book). Tie the weapon into his legion or family, sort of a family heirloon. That way he has a good weapon that will provide some cool abilities. I'd just go straight fighter into the Weapon of Legacy prestige class (forget that name at the moment).

Cheers,
Save vs DM
terrashand
02-06-06, 09:19 AM If your DM allows non-WoTC products there is a pretty good class in the AEG Merc book. I think I have the pdf (I will look) if you want I can email you a couple of pages out of it so you can check it out. The class is about heavy armor, being able to pack march long distances, a few bonus feats, weap spec at 8th, leadership, and a couple of charging skills.
Romanus_Mortus
02-06-06, 09:42 AM I have a civ in one of my games with a greco-roman flavor. Their soldiers are hoplite-esque.

Here's an example of how I do it without using alot of extra rules -

Human Fighter
Armor: Breastplate, Heavy Metal Shield
Weapons: Longspear (I allow longspears to be weilded in one hand, but only gain a bonus against a charge when two-handed), Short Sword, Dagger

If he's not dealing enough damage, I think making his shortsword legendary could be fun (as suggested above). Also consider giving him an "enhanced" shortsword that deals damage as a longsword or bastard sword. From my perspective, if he's going through the effort to play as a spear-toting greek, then let him stay in character (using a spear & shortsword) without forcing him to fall behind the group for the sake of his RP choice.
SgtHulka
02-06-06, 10:08 AM Use a Trident instead of as shortspear. That way you can keep up with any other typical sword & board fighter, damage-wise, and you've got a unique weapon that you can set versus a charge (like a spear) and you can throw (like a spear).

For a "the movie Troy"-style martial artist, I could see any of the following leading toward an interesting character who, while not the biggest and baddest in the party, could be an effective cork (with Combat Expertise, a Large Shield, a good Dex, and a Breastplate) a decent two-weapon Fighter (with Improved Shield Bash, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two-Weapon fighting or switching to a shortsword for Two-Weapon Fighting so that the Medium Weapon/Light Weapon bonus kicks in) and can even put out moderate damage (Weapon specialization feat tree for Trident, Power Attack). If you want to have an even better AC, go with Tower Shield...+5 Breastplate, +3 Dex, +4 Tower Shield = 22 AC without any enhancements. (Add in cheap +1 enhancements each for shield and breastplate, and then 2,000gp ring of protection and 2,000gp amulet of Natural Armor, and you're up to a 26 AC without even resorting to Combat Expertise). Tower Shield may feel too Roman though.

If you want to stick with shortspears instead, maybe go Ranger (oddly enough) with Quickdraw, Far Shot, and the Archery style. Focus on Dex and pick up Weapon Finesse so when you're in melee you can use a shortsword.
Tempest Stormwind
02-06-06, 10:18 AM There's no need for a new class for this. Fighter works.

And if your weapon does low damage, look into Power Attack and Improved Critical. The Psionic Weapon chain of feats work well as well if you want to work in Wild Talent or a couple levels of Psychic Warrior in as well.

I experimented with this sort of thing a while back when I made the Lancer (see my sig), and discovered that it could work out using ANY weapon in two hands and get something like +70 damage per -1 taken on Power Attack. It's not entirely what you're looking for (since that involves enormous jumps on every attack and was intended as an FF-Dragoon model, and it won't work with light weapons like short swords), but you may want to look into it anyway.

The problem lies in the hoplite style of spear and shield. Damage is heavily, heavily biased in 3.5 toward two-handed weapons.
Obscure One
02-06-06, 10:19 AM Running off of Romanus_Mortus' suggestion:

Human Fighter
Armor: Breastplate, Heavy Metal Shield
Weapons: Large Shortspear (1d8 - making it large is a bit of a loop hole to weild a longspear one handed and throw it rather than have reach, but it requires a feat to negate the penalties. Though if your DM allows Romanus' house rule I'd go with that instead of burning the feat just to have the same damage with the ability to throw instead of reach) OR A Net and Trident (lose the sheild), and use the Weapon Style Feat from CW "Net and Trident" available to a Human Fighter at second level (you get to net them then make a 5-foot step toward them, AND make full-attack with your Trident A.K.A. "A Dragon's Fork"). You'd be king of the Colloseum in no time! :D
danielinthewolvesden
02-06-06, 10:28 AM Easier still- Fighter, lose the heavy armour Feat, but is allowed to use a long spear one handed. Also loses a few weapon prof.
Tony Vargas
02-06-06, 02:41 PM I ask as one of my players (FR campaign set in Chessenta) is wanting to play a hoplite/Greek infantry style fighter. It's a cool idea, and one I found doable in 3.0 - if you played fast and loose with 'weapon equivalency.' The 3.0 lance, for instance, was simply-one handed (no mounted requirement), so could stand in for a one-handed spear long enough to gain a reach advantage. The 3.0 Tower shield was poorly defined, but, depending on which variation on it was in use, you could get omni-directional cover, or avoid facing a cover penalty, yourself, most of the time.

3.5 makes it a lot harder. Two-handing is even more powerful thanks to 3.5 power attack, the Tower Shield is, again, poorly-defined (but always gives a penalty to AB), and there's no one-handed reach facsimile of a spear (even the desperation ploy of wielding a 'small' longspear has been quashed).

But it seems to me that using short spears, javelins and shortswords for RP reasons is making him a bit underpowered compared to the rest of the party. In particular, while he is very good at hitting things he's not doing a lot of damage. Yep. Even if you're not willing to bend any rules, you can still get some milage out of it with the right feats.

For instance, throwing javelins is pretty effecitve - if you have quickdraw, PBS, Rapid Shot & Far shot. If you're using a heavy shield rather than a tower, you can TWF (with Improved Shield Bash so you don't lose AC), as well. Do both and you make up for in extra attacks /some/ of what you lack in high damage, while still enjoying the shield's AC. Of course, this requires a good dex, but the signature medium armor also calls for a good dex, anyway.

Don't be afraid to substitute a 'trident' for the hoplite spear - it's a little more melee damage than a shortspear, and you can use javelins when you need throwing range - call it a 'weapon equivalency.' The shortsword is more roman than greek, a hoplite would more likely (if he had a sword at all) have a falcata - a weapon shaped much like a Kukri, but larger. If you scaled up the kukri stats, you'd have a scimitar, so you could go with one of those as a weapon equivalancy, giving you some slashing damage to complement the piercing damage from javelin/trident/spear.

If you're willing to bend the rules even slightly, you can make this sort of character more competative. No new classes required, just cut the weapon combinations a little some slack:

Allow the longspear to be used one handed, either as a martial weapon with the crit reduced to x2, or with an exotic weapon proficiency. This allows the character to model the hoplite reach advange, even when not in a phallanx.
Define the Tower Shield: Use a version of the tower shield that provides sensible amounts of cover from a defined 'facing' - this is tricky, but should be do-able. Properly mananged, being able to have cover in some directions, at your option, can be a worthwhile advantage. Use cover penalties instead of the constant -2 in the PH.
Or, if the character is using a heavy shield, allow him to TWF with the heavy shield designated as the primary weapon, and the shortsword as the secondary - this reduces the TWF penalties.
Allow Javelins to be enchanted as ammunition. A variety of cheap expendible magic javelins will give the character the same sort of advantage enjoyed by archers. Paying for enough magic javelins to make a quickdraw/rapid-shot full attack is ruinous, and returning is impractical on more than one weapon/round.
Thubby
02-06-06, 04:32 PM i made a guy like this it was fun, the dmg wasnt spectacular, but it wasnt bad iether, and his ac was staggering.

look through comp. fighter, there are like 5 formation/ sword shield feats, as for the spear, monkey grip, a minus 2 to hit is a small price for 10 foot reach, and imp shield bash, along with 2 wpn fighting imitates these guys almost to a T. also, use javelins with far shot, and switch to a s sword when in close range, you have to play this fighter build a bit smarter, which can be real fun.also, quick draw is very good

round by round: (assume they start at 30 ft.)
1: 5 foot step, javelin, switch to L spear and ready for the wave of enemies
2: (if they closed) switch to s sword if they are all, or most within 5 ft., or stay with L spear. bash with shield, attack
3: go to tavern get drunk with wenches
terrashand
02-06-06, 07:17 PM yeah the great thing about using a reach weapon with this (1 hand longspear if you allow it)

1. Throw Pilum switch to L.Spear.
2. Take AOO's when they close from 10 ft to 5ft.
3. Use your shield bash as a bull rush and knock them back to 10ft.
3a. if you fail the bull rush then just take a 5ft adjustment.
4. repeat 2 and 3
Linklegacy77
02-06-06, 08:08 PM I made one a while back, I'll post it here.

d10 hit die, full BAB, strong Fort, poor ref, poor will.

Prerequisites:
BAB +5
Feats: Weapon Focus (halberd), Combat Reflexes, Two-Weapon Fighting, Spinning Halberd (complete warrior)
Alignment: Lawful

Special abilities:
1. Slashing Stab +1d10
2. Long Arm
3. Slashing Stab +2d10
4. Flying Halberds
5. Slashing Stab +3d10, Phalanx Tactics +2
6. Hooking Halberds
7. Slashing Stab +4d10
8. One-handed Halberd
9. Slashing Stab +5d10
10. Better Wielding, Phalanx Tactics +4

Skill Points: 2+int modifier
Class Skills: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Jump, Listen, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot

Slashing Stab: You may forgo any additional attacks you would have this round. As a full round action, you may make 1 melee attack at any target within reach. If you hit, you may rend your foe for an additional d10 damage. This damage increases by 1d10 every odd-numbered level.

One-handed Halberd: You may wield a halberd in one hand, but only when using a shield. Bucklers do not count for this purpose.

Flying Halberds: Any Halberd you wield may be thrown as if it had a range increment of fifteen feet. You do not take the normal –4 penalty to hit for throwing halberds.

Phalanx tactics: At fifth level you gain a +2 competence bonus to hit and damage while there is an ally between you and a foe that is ten feet away. You only gain the bonus on attacks against that character. Treat attacks with a halberd against that enemy as melee attacks. This bonus improves to +4 to both hit and damage at level 10.

Better Wielding: At level 8 you may apply 1 ½ times your strength bonus to attacks with your halberds as if you were wielding them in two hands when using them in one hand. This bonus applies to thrown halberds.

Hooking Halberds: You gain a +4 competence bonus on trip attempts with halberds.

Long-arm: The reach of any halberd you wield is now 5’ larger than it was previously. It can still attack enemies within the former reach as well.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shiny_Dragon 02-06-06, 07:26 AM	Hi All, Does anyone know if there are any classes/prestige classes available to build a greco-roman warrior type fighter? I ask as one of my players (FR campaign set in Chessenta) is wanting to play a hoplite/Greek infantry style fighter. But it seems to me that using short spears, javelins and shortswords for RP reasons is making him a bit underpowered compared to the rest of the party (a psychic warrior and a fighter-cleric). In particular, while he is very good at hitting things he's not doing a lot of damage. Im keen to keep the characters flavour, as is the player, so I want to avoid the easy solution of giving him a greatsword/greataxe. Thanks.
Rivelstraz 02-06-06, 07:36 AM	I don't remember any PrC suitable for this, but there are some feats in some of the Complete X saga that grants you AC bonus if you fight with a shield and a light weapon. Perhaps he can find some more of that kind.
Save-vs-DM 02-06-06, 07:54 AM	Dragon Issue 338 has a fighter variant known as the "Pikeman." This is pretty close to what you're looking for, I think. It includes a style feat that's easy to obtain called Shield and Pike Style. Another thing you might consider is letting him have a Weapon of Legacy (provided you have the book). Tie the weapon into his legion or family, sort of a family heirloon. That way he has a good weapon that will provide some cool abilities. I'd just go straight fighter into the Weapon of Legacy prestige class (forget that name at the moment). Cheers, Save vs DM
terrashand 02-06-06, 09:19 AM	If your DM allows non-WoTC products there is a pretty good class in the AEG Merc book. I think I have the pdf (I will look) if you want I can email you a couple of pages out of it so you can check it out. The class is about heavy armor, being able to pack march long distances, a few bonus feats, weap spec at 8th, leadership, and a couple of charging skills.
Romanus_Mortus 02-06-06, 09:42 AM	I have a civ in one of my games with a greco-roman flavor. Their soldiers are hoplite-esque. Here's an example of how I do it without using alot of extra rules - Human Fighter Armor: Breastplate, Heavy Metal Shield Weapons: Longspear (I allow longspears to be weilded in one hand, but only gain a bonus against a charge when two-handed), Short Sword, Dagger If he's not dealing enough damage, I think making his shortsword legendary could be fun (as suggested above). Also consider giving him an "enhanced" shortsword that deals damage as a longsword or bastard sword. From my perspective, if he's going through the effort to play as a spear-toting greek, then let him stay in character (using a spear & shortsword) without forcing him to fall behind the group for the sake of his RP choice.
SgtHulka 02-06-06, 10:08 AM	Use a Trident instead of as shortspear. That way you can keep up with any other typical sword & board fighter, damage-wise, and you've got a unique weapon that you can set versus a charge (like a spear) and you can throw (like a spear). For a "the movie Troy"-style martial artist, I could see any of the following leading toward an interesting character who, while not the biggest and baddest in the party, could be an effective cork (with Combat Expertise, a Large Shield, a good Dex, and a Breastplate) a decent two-weapon Fighter (with Improved Shield Bash, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two-Weapon fighting or switching to a shortsword for Two-Weapon Fighting so that the Medium Weapon/Light Weapon bonus kicks in) and can even put out moderate damage (Weapon specialization feat tree for Trident, Power Attack). If you want to have an even better AC, go with Tower Shield...+5 Breastplate, +3 Dex, +4 Tower Shield = 22 AC without any enhancements. (Add in cheap +1 enhancements each for shield and breastplate, and then 2,000gp ring of protection and 2,000gp amulet of Natural Armor, and you're up to a 26 AC without even resorting to Combat Expertise). Tower Shield may feel too Roman though. If you want to stick with shortspears instead, maybe go Ranger (oddly enough) with Quickdraw, Far Shot, and the Archery style. Focus on Dex and pick up Weapon Finesse so when you're in melee you can use a shortsword.
Tempest Stormwind 02-06-06, 10:18 AM	There's no need for a new class for this. Fighter works. And if your weapon does low damage, look into Power Attack and Improved Critical. The Psionic Weapon chain of feats work well as well if you want to work in Wild Talent or a couple levels of Psychic Warrior in as well. I experimented with this sort of thing a while back when I made the Lancer (see my sig), and discovered that it could work out using ANY weapon in two hands and get something like +70 damage per -1 taken on Power Attack. It's not entirely what you're looking for (since that involves enormous jumps on every attack and was intended as an FF-Dragoon model, and it won't work with light weapons like short swords), but you may want to look into it anyway. The problem lies in the hoplite style of spear and shield. Damage is heavily, heavily biased in 3.5 toward two-handed weapons.
Obscure One 02-06-06, 10:19 AM	Running off of Romanus_Mortus' suggestion: Human Fighter Armor: Breastplate, Heavy Metal Shield Weapons: Large Shortspear (1d8 - making it large is a bit of a loop hole to weild a longspear one handed and throw it rather than have reach, but it requires a feat to negate the penalties. Though if your DM allows Romanus' house rule I'd go with that instead of burning the feat just to have the same damage with the ability to throw instead of reach) OR A Net and Trident (lose the sheild), and use the Weapon Style Feat from CW "Net and Trident" available to a Human Fighter at second level (you get to net them then make a 5-foot step toward them, AND make full-attack with your Trident A.K.A. "A Dragon's Fork"). You'd be king of the Colloseum in no time! :D
danielinthewolvesden 02-06-06, 10:28 AM	Easier still- Fighter, lose the heavy armour Feat, but is allowed to use a long spear one handed. Also loses a few weapon prof.
Tony Vargas 02-06-06, 02:41 PM	I ask as one of my players (FR campaign set in Chessenta) is wanting to play a hoplite/Greek infantry style fighter. It's a cool idea, and one I found doable in 3.0 - if you played fast and loose with 'weapon equivalency.' The 3.0 lance, for instance, was simply-one handed (no mounted requirement), so could stand in for a one-handed spear long enough to gain a reach advantage. The 3.0 Tower shield was poorly defined, but, depending on which variation on it was in use, you could get omni-directional cover, or avoid facing a cover penalty, yourself, most of the time. 3.5 makes it a lot harder. Two-handing is even more powerful thanks to 3.5 power attack, the Tower Shield is, again, poorly-defined (but always gives a penalty to AB), and there's no one-handed reach facsimile of a spear (even the desperation ploy of wielding a 'small' longspear has been quashed). But it seems to me that using short spears, javelins and shortswords for RP reasons is making him a bit underpowered compared to the rest of the party. In particular, while he is very good at hitting things he's not doing a lot of damage. Yep. Even if you're not willing to bend any rules, you can still get some milage out of it with the right feats. For instance, throwing javelins is pretty effecitve - if you have quickdraw, PBS, Rapid Shot & Far shot. If you're using a heavy shield rather than a tower, you can TWF (with Improved Shield Bash so you don't lose AC), as well. Do both and you make up for in extra attacks /some/ of what you lack in high damage, while still enjoying the shield's AC. Of course, this requires a good dex, but the signature medium armor also calls for a good dex, anyway. Don't be afraid to substitute a 'trident' for the hoplite spear - it's a little more melee damage than a shortspear, and you can use javelins when you need throwing range - call it a 'weapon equivalency.' The shortsword is more roman than greek, a hoplite would more likely (if he had a sword at all) have a falcata - a weapon shaped much like a Kukri, but larger. If you scaled up the kukri stats, you'd have a scimitar, so you could go with one of those as a weapon equivalancy, giving you some slashing damage to complement the piercing damage from javelin/trident/spear. If you're willing to bend the rules even slightly, you can make this sort of character more competative. No new classes required, just cut the weapon combinations a little some slack: Allow the longspear to be used one handed, either as a martial weapon with the crit reduced to x2, or with an exotic weapon proficiency. This allows the character to model the hoplite reach advange, even when not in a phallanx. Define the Tower Shield: Use a version of the tower shield that provides sensible amounts of cover from a defined 'facing' - this is tricky, but should be do-able. Properly mananged, being able to have cover in some directions, at your option, can be a worthwhile advantage. Use cover penalties instead of the constant -2 in the PH. Or, if the character is using a heavy shield, allow him to TWF with the heavy shield designated as the primary weapon, and the shortsword as the secondary - this reduces the TWF penalties. Allow Javelins to be enchanted as ammunition. A variety of cheap expendible magic javelins will give the character the same sort of advantage enjoyed by archers. Paying for enough magic javelins to make a quickdraw/rapid-shot full attack is ruinous, and returning is impractical on more than one weapon/round.
Thubby 02-06-06, 04:32 PM	i made a guy like this it was fun, the dmg wasnt spectacular, but it wasnt bad iether, and his ac was staggering. look through comp. fighter, there are like 5 formation/ sword shield feats, as for the spear, monkey grip, a minus 2 to hit is a small price for 10 foot reach, and imp shield bash, along with 2 wpn fighting imitates these guys almost to a T. also, use javelins with far shot, and switch to a s sword when in close range, you have to play this fighter build a bit smarter, which can be real fun.also, quick draw is very good round by round: (assume they start at 30 ft.) 1: 5 foot step, javelin, switch to L spear and ready for the wave of enemies 2: (if they closed) switch to s sword if they are all, or most within 5 ft., or stay with L spear. bash with shield, attack 3: go to tavern get drunk with wenches
terrashand 02-06-06, 07:17 PM	yeah the great thing about using a reach weapon with this (1 hand longspear if you allow it) 1. Throw Pilum switch to L.Spear. 2. Take AOO's when they close from 10 ft to 5ft. 3. Use your shield bash as a bull rush and knock them back to 10ft. 3a. if you fail the bull rush then just take a 5ft adjustment. 4. repeat 2 and 3
Linklegacy77 02-06-06, 08:08 PM	I made one a while back, I'll post it here. d10 hit die, full BAB, strong Fort, poor ref, poor will. Prerequisites: BAB +5 Feats: Weapon Focus (halberd), Combat Reflexes, Two-Weapon Fighting, Spinning Halberd (complete warrior) Alignment: Lawful Special abilities: 1. Slashing Stab +1d10 2. Long Arm 3. Slashing Stab +2d10 4. Flying Halberds 5. Slashing Stab +3d10, Phalanx Tactics +2 6. Hooking Halberds 7. Slashing Stab +4d10 8. One-handed Halberd 9. Slashing Stab +5d10 10. Better Wielding, Phalanx Tactics +4 Skill Points: 2+int modifier Class Skills: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Jump, Listen, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot Slashing Stab: You may forgo any additional attacks you would have this round. As a full round action, you may make 1 melee attack at any target within reach. If you hit, you may rend your foe for an additional d10 damage. This damage increases by 1d10 every odd-numbered level. One-handed Halberd: You may wield a halberd in one hand, but only when using a shield. Bucklers do not count for this purpose. Flying Halberds: Any Halberd you wield may be thrown as if it had a range increment of fifteen feet. You do not take the normal –4 penalty to hit for throwing halberds. Phalanx tactics: At fifth level you gain a +2 competence bonus to hit and damage while there is an ally between you and a foe that is ten feet away. You only gain the bonus on attacks against that character. Treat attacks with a halberd against that enemy as melee attacks. This bonus improves to +4 to both hit and damage at level 10. Better Wielding: At level 8 you may apply 1 ½ times your strength bonus to attacks with your halberds as if you were wielding them in two hands when using them in one hand. This bonus applies to thrown halberds. Hooking Halberds: You gain a +4 competence bonus on trip attempts with halberds. Long-arm: The reach of any halberd you wield is now 5’ larger than it was previously. It can still attack enemies within the former reach as well.