Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EvilVegan 06-01-07, 12:58 PM	Am I reading correctly that the bladestorm ability (at 15th ECL) lets you attack every enemy within range? What? All of them? With the same weapon? Throwing it? In one round? I mean, if we're talking kobolds (and I'm always talking kobolds), and using a distance weapon with far shot (for fun lets make it a halfling wielding a magical javelin). Depending on how you read the interaction of far shot + distance that's a maximum of anywhere from 450 - 600 feet. (the correct way is base range X 4, but that's for another another thread) Circle with Radius of 90 kobolds or of 120 kobolds. 8100pi kobolds - 1 for the square he occupies = 25433 kobolds 14400pi kobolds - 1 for the square he occupies = 45215 kobolds Either way it's a lot of kobolds, sure some of them are at -10 to hit, but when you're tossing weapons around with a probable minimum attack bonus of +25, you're going to hit. 25000 - 45000 dead kobolds in 1 round with a single javelin, every other round, all day, as an extraordinary ability. Thats 4238 - 7535 attacks per second. Hm... Did I miss something? Ok, for fun, lets say this halfling is on the plane of air and he's surrounded by flying air-kobolds in a sphere with a radius of 120 kobolds. 7,234,559 kobolds dead in 1 round. 1,205,760 attacks per second. I can attack 52,088,832,000 times in one day. I'm extraordinary!
Batshido 06-01-07, 02:09 PM	I can attack 52,088,832,000 times in one day. I'm extraordinary! It's still in the same order of magnitude as "I was standing at ground zero for a tactical nuclear strike and it didn't even singe my hair," as far as ridiculousness goes.
DaidojiTaidoru 06-01-07, 02:25 PM	I know! Isn't it AWESOME! :D I so need to find a way to get surrounded by kobolds without my DM using the mob rules. Seriously the only difference between Su and Ex at level 15 should be whether or not it fails in an AMF.
EvilVegan 06-01-07, 02:32 PM	Well I don't know which specific ridiculousness that is, but it does sound like they are the tactical nuclear strike. It is orders of magnitude above falling 10000 feet and walking off unscathed. It borders on quantum manipulation via practice without magic. I mean, how fast is the javelin travelling? It has to go from the attacker to the target and back over 1 million times in 1 second with enough velocity to deal damage. It has to be going faster than the speed of light. I'm not good at figuring out which math equation I need to use. I know it looks like this in long-hand: 16 trips at 5' = 80' + 32 trips at 10' = 320' + 48 trips at 15' = 720' + 64 trips at 20' = 1280' + 80 trips at 25' = 2000' + 96 trips at 30' = 2880' and so on... up to + 1920 trips at 600' = 1152000' And reducing that it would look like X = 2 * 8 targets, Y = 5' (x * y) + (2x * 2y) + (3x * 3y) + (4x * 4y) + . . . + (119x * 119y) + (120x * 120y) = total distance travelled in 6 seconds. For the love of god I can't remember what that turns into, and I know its something simple. Its 80' multiplied by a sequence of sums of squares of the number of "shells" of enemies (1+4+9+16+25+36+49+64+81+100+121+144+ . . . + 14161 + 14400). Each "shell" is 5' and at 600' max range there are 120 shells.
rvielman 06-01-07, 02:42 PM	Well I don't know which specific ridiculousness that is, but it does sound like they are the tactical nuclear strike. I think he meant evasion, as in: "Tactical Nuke goes off, area damage effect, roll reflex" "Pass, I take no damage". And that's level 2.
DaidojiTaidoru 06-01-07, 02:59 PM	Hm, lets see. Well first while the mechanics state that the wielder gets an attack against every single kobold this doesn't mean he's actually making one throw per kobold. One throw per line of kobolds should do. That should drastically decrease the number of throws. Add in the lethal shockwave and those who die from fright and we get back down to the merely ridiculous as opposed to unimaginable.
EvilVegan 06-01-07, 03:04 PM	I think he meant evasion, as in: "Tactical Nuke goes off, area damage effect, roll reflex" "Pass, I take no damage". And that's level 2. Show me the rules on tactical nuke that show it is "Reflex for half" and I'll buy it. :P
rvielman 06-01-07, 03:23 PM	Extrapolating from "20 foot radius explosion in 5x5 room", as in Fireball, reflex half.
Batshido 06-01-07, 03:42 PM	Extrapolating from "20 foot radius explosion in 5x5 room", as in Fireball, reflex half. Exactly. Or your Dwarven Fighter dunking in chainmail. Or the bard convincing the local lord that he's better off with adventurers looking after his affairs. Or the Ranger talking to animals. Welcome to 2nd level, where physics and logic as you know them go out the window. ;)
EvilVegan 06-01-07, 03:58 PM	It is physically possible to dunk in full plate as a dwarf. It doesn't break the laws of physics, it stretches them. In 2 dimensions he's throwing a javelin at an average speed of 7,776,266 and 2/3 feet per second. But not only that it is bouncing back and forth without disintegrating, when it hits it is only at enough speed to deal javelin damage + str + whatever else. So it is constantly accelerating and decelerating without outside forces acting upon it. Side question, since a bloodstorm blade can treat thrown ranged attacks as melee attacks can I great cleave off of these kobolds (or my dusty old bag of rats)?
DaidojiTaidoru 06-01-07, 04:31 PM	Is that calculation hitting each kobold separately or are you allowing the javelin to make an attack on each kobold until it reaches the end of a line of kobolds before rebounding?
Linklegacy77 06-01-07, 04:52 PM	I always pictured it as the weapon going out and bouncing off each enemy, not coming back after each strike.
DaidojiTaidoru 06-01-07, 04:54 PM	I always pictured it as the weapon going out and bouncing off each enemy, not coming back after each strike. It's a little harder to envision that with a javelin though. Though with throw anything being a previous class feature I guess it wouldn't matter exactly HOW the javelin hit, so much as that it did hit....
Crashy75 06-01-07, 05:50 PM	... In 2 dimensions he's throwing a javelin at an average speed of 7,776,266 and 2/3 feet per second. But not only that it is bouncing back and forth without disintegrating, when it hits it is only at enough speed to deal javelin damage + str + whatever else. So it is constantly accelerating and decelerating without outside forces acting upon it. ... Yup. And for his next trick he'll wade through a river of lava naked. :D I wouldn't think about it too hard my friend. I can almost see the blood vessles in your brain popping.
wal9000 06-01-07, 06:00 PM	So it is constantly accelerating and decelerating without outside forces acting upon it. And burning hands makes fire show up out of nowhere without burning any fuel. Weird, isn't it? One would almost think that it violates the second law of thermodynamics, unless it's taking the energy from somewhere. Silly physics, not lining up perfectly with what D&D says you can do... ;)
ServanWolf 06-01-07, 06:04 PM	you can maybe say that the enrgy is coming from the plane of creation or the plane of fire
ServanWolf 06-01-07, 06:04 PM	but it seems me really impossible that that javelin will come back
rvielman 06-01-07, 06:10 PM	But those spells work even in an area where dimensional lock was cast, where if the fire was "summoned", they wouldn't work. Just take it as fact that most things in DnD can't be explained IRL.
Ralvuimego 06-01-07, 06:16 PM	Note: The below is not a serious, plausable suggestion, It's just a way to imagine it that works better than "He throws it, it bounces back, he throws it, it bounces back... thousands of times in the same 6 seconds." I'm thinking that it's just one throw, but with some superhuman spin on it, causing it not only to spiral outward around the thrower, but cause every kobold the javelin hit directly to break up on contact and explode in kobold shrapnel, killing each other kobold within ten feet of it. When it reaches the end of it's range, the spin has slowed just enough to send it back to the thrower. :D
Anuvrix 06-01-07, 09:58 PM	I'm thinking that it's just one throw, but with some superhuman spin on it, causing it not only to spiral outward around the thrower, but cause every kobold the javelin hit directly to break up on contact and explode in kobold shrapnel, killing each other kobold within ten feet of it. I am putting this in my sig.:D Kobold Shrapnel
Ralvuimego 06-02-07, 12:35 AM	cool, I've been sigged! :D
EvilVegan 06-02-07, 08:58 AM	Is that calculation hitting each kobold separately or are you allowing the javelin to make an attack on each kobold until it reaches the end of a line of kobolds before rebounding? Hitting each individual kobold then coming back then going out to hit another kobold, as it is written, so it shall be. :P I know it makes more sense to write it as several returning line attacks, but even that is still absurd as an extraordinary ability. And burning hands makes fire show up out of nowhere without burning any fuel. Weird, isn't it? One would almost think that it violates the second law of thermodynamics, unless it's taking the energy from somewhere. Silly physics, not lining up perfectly with what D&D says you can do... ;) I'm not concerned with burning hands because it is a magical effect that already breaks the rules of physics. That's part of the definition of magic. I'm concerned that this is an extraordinary ability and it's also "over-powered". Other ranged-attack prestige classes that have similar abilities are limited by class level of BAB or have an area of effect. For instance these epic feats: Swarm Of Arrows [Epic] Prerequisites Dex 23, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (type of bow used). Benefit As a full-round action, you may fire an arrow at your full base attack bonus at each opponent within 30 feet. Storm Of Throws [Epic] PrerequisiteDex 23, Point Blank Shot, Quick Draw, Rapid Shot. BenefitAs a full-round action, you may throw a light weapon at your full base attack bonus at each opponent within 30 feet. All light weapons thrown need not be the same type. Bladestorm is limited by range only, and it is very easy to get that range to be huge! And thanks to the Char Op boards they let me know of another option. The javelin is now a distance, ghost-touch, force javelin and each kobold is sharing it's space with an ethereal kobold and an incorporeal kobold. And lets just get completely retarded and change it from kobolds to flies. There are now 300 creatures for each kobold above. These flies don't like each other enough to form a swarm and are instead from the plane of law, lined up in single-file rows. So now we're dealing with a circle with a radius of 36000 flies. . . 1,296,000,000pi. 4,069,440,000 attacks in 2 dimensions. 678,240,000 attacks per second. 62,208,000,000,000 attacks in 3 dimensions. 10,368,000,000,000 attacks per second.