Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ArochanoX 07-28-07, 12:48 PM	There are many complaints about the low power of fighter compared to spellcasters and inability to anything else than brawl. The concept of a fighter is simple: - Fighters don't use spells (or similar x/day abilities, unless from feats) - Fighters are good in combat - Fighters can specialize through feats without restrictions So: Fighter HD: d8 (but see below) Class Skills: Climb, Craft, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: nobility and royalty, Profession, Ride and Swim Skill Points/level 2+Int (but see below) lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Specialization, bonus feat 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 bonus feat 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 bonus feat 4 +4 +4 +1 +1 5 +5 +4 +1 +1 bonus feat 6 +6 +5 +2 +2 bonus feat 7 +7 +5 +2 +2 8 +8 +6 +2 +2 bonus feat 9 +9 +6 +3 +3 bonus feat 10 +10 +7 +3 +3 11 +11 +7 +3 +3 bonus feat 12 +12 +8 +4 +4 bonus feat 13 +13 +8 +4 +4 bonus feat 14 +14 +9 +4 +4 15 +15 +9 +5 +5 bonus feat 16 +16 +10 +5 +5 bonus feat 17 +17 +10 +5 +5 18 +18 +11 +6 +6 bonus feat 19 +19 +11 +6 +6 bonus feat 20 +20 +12 +6 +6 Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armors and shields, but not with tower shield. Specialization: (Ex) At the cost of a some number of bonus feats, fighter gains special abilities and expertise. When the feat number drops, adjust the feats evenly between the levels according to the table below. You can invest up to 7 feats to specialization. No specialization ability may be taken 2 times. All abilities are extraordinary. Specialization abilities, descriptions and feat costs below: Tough - 1 feat The fighter's hit die is d10 instead of d8. Very tough - 2 feats The fighter's hit die is d12 instead of d8. Medium armor proficiency - 1 feat The fighter is proficient with all medium and light armors. Fighter also gains tower shield proficiency. Heavy armor proficiency - 2 feats The fighter is proficient with all heavy, medium and light armors. Fighter also gains tower shield proficiency. Hit the weak spot - 5 feats The fighter gains +1d6 sneak attack at levels 2, 6, 10, 14 and 18. Flurry of Strikes - 2 feats The fighter can use flurry of blows with light melee or thrown weapons. He gains an extra attack with his highest base attack bonus, but takes a -2 penalty to all his attacks. Alacrity as toughness - 3 feats If the fighter wears no armor or shields and is in light load, he gains his wisdom bonus to AC as a dodge bonus. This bonus doesn't apply if the fighter is flatfooted or otherwise denied to his dexterity bonus on AC. He also gains a +1 dodge bonus on AC at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20. Agile Fighter - 1 feat Add tumble, balance and escape artist skills to the class skill list of the fighter. Talkative fighter - 1 feat Add diplomacy, sense motive and gather information skills to the class skill list of the fighter. Nature's fighter - 1 feat Add handle animal, knowledge (nature) and survival to the class skill list of the fighter. Alert fighter - 1 feat Add listen and spot to the class skill list of the fighter. Skillful fighter - 2 feats The fighter has 4+Int skill points per level instead of 2+Int. Dominating Blows - 5 feats Gain +1 on to hit rolls with fighter's weapons at levels 3, 7, 11, 15 and 19. Heghten endurance - 4 feats Gain +1 damage reduction / - at levels 7, 10, 13, 16 and 19. Improved Reflexes - 3 feats Reflex save is a good save for fighter instead of poor. Improved Willpower - 3 feats Will save is a good save for fighter instead of poor. Note that the levels run from down to up!! __________number of bonus feats___________ lvl 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 20 19 feat feat feat feat feat 18 feat feat feat feat 17 feat feat feat feat 16 feat feat feat feat feat 15 feat feat feat feat 14 feat feat feat 13 feat feat feat feat feat 12 feat feat feat feat 11 feat feat feat feat feat feat 10 feat feat 9 feat feat feat feat feat 8 feat feat feat feat 7 feat feat feat feat 6 feat feat feat feat feat 5 feat feat feat feat 4 feat feat feat 3 feat feat feat feat feat 2 feat feat feat feat 1 feat feat feat feat feat feat feat feat So, more varying and proficient fighter ready for your comments and criticism.
ArochanoX 07-29-07, 06:59 AM	Too many fighter variants, eh? Not a single reply and just a few views in a day. Still... :bump:
Xavorin 07-29-07, 10:03 AM	Hmm... this seems like an ok idea, but I do have a few bones to pick with it. First off, you put this fighter at an immediate disadvantage to other combat classes, by forcing them to "buy" their armor proficiencies. Look at any other combat class, and you will see that they automatically have proficiency with medium and heavy armor. If you want this to be balanced with the other classes, give them proficiency with heavy and medium armor off the bat. Oh, yeah, and technically they don't have any proficiencies with anything, since you didn't write their proficiencies in. And I don't get the specialization thing. Are you forced to waste feats like this? They sure do seem a waste. I mean, seriously. What other combat class has a d8 hit die, if they're completely designed for combat? By forcing this fighter to "buy" a decent hit die as well as armor proficiencies, you're putting this class at an even greater disadvantage. Also, all the decent specializations you can "buy" cost huge numbers of feats, so at low-levels this fighter is going to suck. So I think I'd have to disagree with what I said at first. I do not think this is an ok fix. What you've done here, as near as I can tell, is make fighters worse than they are as-is. There might be something I missed here, but unless there is I think I'll be sticking with the PHB Fighter, perhaps upping their hit-die to a d12 and leaving the changes at that.
bobothechimp 07-29-07, 10:14 AM	This makes the fighter a much better dip than it already was.
LoneFlame 07-29-07, 10:52 AM	As stated before, these are neat abilities, but they suck because you can't implement most of them for several lvs. Not only that, but you have to spend all the extra feats the class gives you and then some just to get these in the first place. Give them a decent initial number of these special abilities to start out with, so you can already have your Fighter's base configuration already set up without having to wait to lv 20 to get it done right. Also, I'm tired of seeing Fighter remakes with Handle Animal & Ride as default skills. At least 9 out of 10 times, those skills are completely worthless to your average Fighter. Thus, it should be an option, not the norm. On side note: What the hell does that feat chart represent anyway?!
Xavorin 07-29-07, 12:10 PM	This makes the fighter a much better dip than it already was. How so? You end up with fewer hit-points, less proficiencies, and fewer feats than you would have gained from dipping into the original, since you have to use the feats you gain to get some of the "Specializations". I fail to see how this makes a better dip than the PHB Fighter.
Vharuck 07-29-07, 01:55 PM	How so? You end up with fewer hit-points, less proficiencies, and fewer feats than you would have gained from dipping into the original, since you have to use the feats you gain to get some of the "Specializations". I fail to see how this makes a better dip than the PHB Fighter. Because if you only take one level in fighter, you can blow as many feats as possible to get all those neat bonuses but still get the bonus feat. If you were only planning to take 1 level, it doesn't matter if the rest of the fighter levels gave nothing.
LoneFlame 07-29-07, 09:20 PM	Wow, I seriously read that wrong. This class really is a bad idea. It really does just screams 'dip class' under this set up. What the Fighter needs is to be a "let's take this to lv 20" class.
nonsi 07-30-07, 12:25 AM	Wow, I seriously read that wrong. This class really is a bad idea. It really does just screams 'dip class' under this set up. What the Fighter needs is to be a "let's take this to lv 20" class. If only people would listen.......... http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=893422
LoneFlame 07-30-07, 12:31 AM	And thus the Fighter continues to be a massive headache that people can't agree on a revision for...
ArochanoX 07-30-07, 12:56 AM	Xavorin And I don't get the specialization thing. Are you forced to waste feats like this? They sure do seem a waste. I mean, seriously. What other combat class has a d8 hit die, if they're completely designed for combat? By forcing this fighter to "buy" a decent hit die as well as armor proficiencies, you're putting this class at an even greater disadvantage. Also, all the decent specializations you can "buy" cost huge numbers of feats, so at low-levels this fighter is going to suck. So I think I'd have to disagree with what I said at first. I do not think this is an ok fix. What you've done here, as near as I can tell, is make fighters worse than they are as-is. There might be something I missed here, but unless there is I think I'll be sticking with the PHB Fighter, perhaps upping their hit-die to a d12 and leaving the changes at that. The specialization is intended for players to cherry-pick all the neat abilities they want to for their fighter. Some want fighters to be city guards, so then pick atleast "alert fighter" and "improved willpower" abilities. If one wants to be a mounted fighter he might pick other abilities, and so forth for any fighter archetype the player wants to play. And the specialization reduces overall feats, not aquired feats! bobothechimp This makes the fighter a much better dip than it already was. Wharup Because if you only take one level in fighter, you can blow as many feats as possible to get all those neat bonuses but still get the bonus feat. If you were only planning to take 1 level, it doesn't matter if the rest of the fighter levels gave nothing. Loneflame Wow, I seriously read that wrong. This class really is a bad idea. It really does just screams 'dip class' under this set up. Wow, that I was completely unaware of. Especially the good saves, HD and proficiencies might be a nice buff. I must think atleast those save bonuses again. loneflame Give them a decent initial number of these special abilities to start out with, so you can already have your Fighter's base configuration already set up without having to wait to lv 20 to get it done right. Also, I'm tired of seeing Fighter remakes with Handle Animal & Ride as default skills. At least 9 out of 10 times, those skills are completely worthless to your average Fighter. Thus, it should be an option, not the norm. On side note: What the hell does that feat chart represent anyway?! The feat chart represents the number of feat distributio0n over levels after specialization. If one used 2 feats for specialization, he'd get 12 feats for the feat progression represented in the chart. And the already incorporated special abilities, I'll add some! :D So, would this work better this way: At level 1, Specialization. No bonus feats listed on any level. Fighter starts out with 20 specialization points and gains 10+lvl more every level thereafter. With aquired specialization points the fighter can buy some abilities. Specialization points last over level ups, fighter can save them for some neat ability later on. Some abilities that must be chosen at level 1: Medium armor proficiency - 3 points The fighter is proficient with all medium and light armors. Fighter also gains tower shield proficiency. Heavy armor proficiency - 5 points The fighter is proficient with all heavy, medium and light armors. Fighter also gains tower shield proficiency. Agile Fighter - 3 points Add tumble, balance and escape artist skills to the class skill list of the fighter. Talkative fighter - 3 points Add diplomacy, sense motive and gather information skills to the class skill list of the fighter. Nature's fighter - 3 points Add handle animal, knowledge (nature) and survival to the class skill list of the fighter. Alert fighter - 3 points Add listen and spot to the class skill list of the fighter. Tough - 5 points (+1 point every level thereafter) The fighter's hit die is d10 instead of d8. Very tough - 7 points (+2 points every level thereafter) The fighter's hit die is d12 instead of d8. Some abilities that can be taken at any time: Hit the weak spot - 20 points Gain +1d6 sneak attack. Flurry of Strikes - 40 points The fighter can use flurry of blows with light melee or thrown weapons. He gains an extra attack with his highest base attack bonus, but takes a -2 penalty to all his attacks. Alacrity as toughness - 10 points If the fighter wears no armor or shields and is in light load, he gains his wisdom bonus to AC as a dodge bonus. This bonus doesn't apply if the fighter is flatfooted or otherwise denied to his dexterity bonus on AC. Improved Alacrity - 10 (+5 per previous improved alacrity) points Prerequirement Alacrity as Toughness. The dodge bonus increases by +1. Skillful fighter - 2 points The fighter gains one skill point to be used immediately (maximum ranks and class skill rules apply as normal). Dominating Blows - 25 points Gain +1 on to hit rolls with fighter's weapons. Heghten endurance - 17 points Prerequirement base fortitude saving throw +7. Gain +1 damage reduction /-. Improved Reflexes - 10 (+2 per previous improved reflexes) points Gain a cumulative +1 bonus on reflex saves. Improved Willpower - 10 (+2 per previous improved willpower) points Gain a cumulative +1 bonus on will saves. Expertise - 20 points Gain a fighter bonus feat. Improved expertise - 25 (+5 per previous improved expertise) points Gain any feat as a bonus feat (prerequirements must be met). Now the fighter here should be more balanced and not so much frontend.
nonsi 07-30-07, 06:39 AM	1. Now you're reinventing the mechanics and make it unique to just one class (like there's the reality for fighters and the reality for everyone else). 2. This is the ultimate 1-level dip. 3. Your Fighter is not more powerful now, but rather steps on every non/poor-spellcaster's toes. 4. Your Fighter is still not [a better Fighter], but rather tries to compete with every other non magical ability.
ArochanoX 07-30-07, 07:43 AM	1. Now you're reinventing the mechanics and make it unique to just one class (like there's the reality for fighters and the reality for everyone else). 2. This is the ultimate 1-level dip. 3. Your Fighter is not more powerful now, but rather steps on every non/poor-spellcaster's toes. 4. Your Fighter is still not [a better Fighter], but rather tries to compete with every other non magical ability. 1. Maybe that reinventing is sometimes needed. Simply adding more and more straightfoward abilities to fighter is not the solution for my thinking. I see fighter the most all-around-capable combatant. And being capable I don't mean that they are all-around good combatants, but rather they can be whatever they wish with just a few limitations. 2. I'm trying to avoid that. Tell me how :D 3. I'm trying to avoid that too. By giving them ability to gain sneak attack, flurry, damage reduction and what else I give them more options. Note that I only gave them extraordinary abilities, so nothing fancy supernaturals and abilities that grant continuous bonus. So no rage for instance. Why? Because ultimately fighter needs multiclassing if all the fighter gains is feats, now I'm granting them the possibility of gaining abilities that suit individual fighter's flavor. Note also that all "other class's" abilities I gave them cost more than it would cost to the classes I ripped the abilities from. 4. It's a better fighter in a sense that it has more options. Fighter is not that under-powered - rather out viable high-level options. Some builds: Thuggie city guard: Points at 1st level: 20 used to: heavy armor proficiency (5), alert fighter (3), very tough (7) left: 5 Points at 2nd level: 12+5 = 17-2 used to: improved willpower (10) left: 5 Points at 3rd level: 13+5-2 = 16 used to: nothing left 16 Points at 4th level: 14+16-2 = 28 used to: expertise (20) left 8 Points at 5th level: 15+8-2 = 21 used to: expertise (20) left 1 Points at 6th level: 16+1-2 = 15 used to: improved willpower (12) left 3 Points at 7th level: 17+3-2 = 18 used to: nothing left 18 Points at 8th level: 18+18-2 = 34 used to: expertise (20) left 14 Points at 9th level: 19+14-2 = 31 used to: expertise (20) left 11 Points at 10th level: 20+11-2 = 29 used to: improved willpower (14) left 15 Points at 11th level: 21+15-2 = 34 used to: heighten endurance (17) left: 17 Points at 12th level: 22+17-2 = 37 Used to: expertise (20) left: 17 Points at 13th level: 23+17-2 = 38 used to: heighten endurance (19) left: 19 Points at 14th level: 24+19-2 = 41 Used to: dominating blows (25) left 16 Points at 15th level: 25+16-2 = 39 Used to: heighten endurance (21) left 18 Points at 16th level: 26+18-2 = 42 Used to: dominating blows (25) left 17 Points at 17th level: 27+17-2 = 42 Used to: heighten endurance (23) left: 19 Points at 18th level: 28+19-2 = 45 Used to: dominating blows (25), expertise (20) left: 0 Points at 19th level: 29-2 = 27 Used to: heighten endurance (25) left 2 Points at 20th level: 30+2-2 = 30 Used to: dominating blows (25) left 5 For a total progression of (changes already counted in): lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 2 0 0 2 +2 3 0 0 +1 bonus on will saves 3 +3 3 1 1 4 +4 4 1 1 fighter bonus feat 5 +5 4 1 1 fighter bonus feat 6 +6 5 2 2 +2 bonus on will saves 7 +7 5 2 2 8 +8 6 2 2 fighter bonus feat 9 +9 6 3 3 fighter bonus feat 10 +10 7 3 3 +3 bonus on will saves 11 +11 7 3 3 DR 1/- 12 +12 8 4 4 fighter bonus feat 13 +13 8 4 4 DR 2/- 14 +14 9 4 4 +1 bonus on attack rolls 15 +15 9 5 5 DR 3/- 16 +16 10 5 5 +2 bonus on attack rolls 17 +17 10 5 5 DR 4/- 18 +18 11 6 6 +3 bonus on attack rolls, fighter bonus feat 19 +19 11 6 6 DR 5/- 20 +20 12 6 6 +4 bonus on attack rolls HD d12 Class skills: Climb, Craft, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: nobility and royalty, Listen, Profession, Ride, Spot and Swim Skill points / level: 2+Int Weapon and armor proficiencies: Fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and all armor and shileds, including tower shield.
LoneFlame 07-30-07, 11:52 AM	Words can't describe my impression on this... As far as using a point-based system for creating a class is concerned... If you're going to make a class that's structure is based on initial points plus points gained at lvs, then the players and DM could be in for quite a headache(and too much extra math). I would propose a different approach, but threads don't last too long after I start suggesting ideas(and I'm pretty sure that's not because of having accomplished something with the suggestions)
ArochanoX 07-30-07, 12:25 PM	Well, loneflame, try me. I think that the system here isn't overly complicated. It's basically as complicated as choosing feats. The only thing you have to remember (or write next to your experience points) is your leftover specialization points. For more insight of this matter, you should check über generics -thread in the variant rules forum. When creating a point-based system - it must be simple. No complex calculations, just adding together, nothing more. And if possible the character creations should be fluent. One shouldn't create the whole class all at once, just the next level. It is more simple (atleast to my thinking). Archer: Points at 1st level: 20 used to: alacrity as toughness (10), improved reflexes (10) left: 0 Points at 2nd level: 12 used to: nothing left: 12 Points at 3rd level: 13+12 = 25 used to: expertise (20) left 5 Points at 4th level: 14+5 = 19 used to: improved alacrity (10) left 9 Points at 5th level: 15+9 = 24 used to: expertise (20) left 4 Points at 6th level: 16+4 = 20 used to: improved reflexes (12) left 8 Points at 7th level: 17+8 = 25 used to: expertise (20) left 5 Points at 8th level: 18+5 = 23 used to: improved alacrity 15 left 8 Points at 9th level: 19+8 = 27 used to: expertise (20) left 7 Points at 10th level: 20+7 = 27 used to: improved reflexes (14) left 13 Points at 11th level: 21+13 = 34 used to: expertise (20) left: 14 Points at 12th level: 22+14 = 36 Used to: improved alacrity (20) left: 16 Points at 13th level: 23+16 = 39 used to: expertise (20) left: 19 Points at 14th level: 24+19 = 43 Used to: improved reflexes (16), dominating blows (25) left 2 Points at 15th level: 25+2 = 27 Used to: expertise (20) left 7 Points at 16th level: 26+7 = 33 Used to: improved alacrity (25) left 8 Points at 17th level: 27+8 = 35 Used to: dominating blows (25) left: 10 Points at 18th level: 28+10 = 38 Used to: expertise (20) left: 18 Points at 19th level: 29+18 = 47 Used to: improved alacrity (30) left 17 Points at 20th level: 30+17 = 47 Used to: dominating blows (25), expertise (20) left 5 lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 2 0 0 Wis to AC (dodge), +1 on reflex saves 2 +2 3 0 0 3 +3 3 1 1 fighter bonus feat 4 +4 4 1 1 +1 dodge bonus on AC 5 +5 4 1 1 fighter bonus feat 6 +6 5 2 2 +1 bonus on reflex saves 7 +7 5 2 2 fighter bonus feat 8 +8 6 2 2 +2 dodge bonus on AC 9 +9 6 3 3 fighter bonus feat 10 +10 7 3 3 +3 bonus on reflex saves 11 +11 7 3 3 fighter bonus feat 12 +12 8 4 4 +3 dodge bonus on AC 13 +13 8 4 4 fighter bonus feat 14 +14 9 4 4 +4 bonus on reflex saves, +1 bonus on attack rolls 15 +15 9 5 5 fighter bonus feat 16 +16 10 5 5 +4 dodge bonus on AC 17 +17 10 5 5 +2 bonus on attack rolls 18 +18 11 6 6 fighter bonus feat 19 +19 11 6 6 +5 dodge bonus on AC 20 +20 12 6 6 +3 bonus on attack rolls, fighter bonus feat HD: d8 Class Skills: Climb, Craft, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: nobility and royalty, Profession, Ride and Swim Skill Points/level 2+Int Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armors and shields, but not with tower shield.
LoneFlame 07-30-07, 03:38 PM	Um, that's still a lot of lv by lv effort to design a build. Maybe I'm just jaded because of my own experiences with point-based classes, but the basic idea of such a class just seems like more of a pain than is really worth the effort.
ArochanoX 07-31-07, 12:07 AM	Um, that's still a lot of lv by lv effort to design a build. Maybe I'm just jaded because of my own experiences with point-based classes, but the basic idea of such a class just seems like more of a pain than is really worth the effort. Well, let's say it looks akward because I had to create these examples level by level. But when levelling up, those options come fluently without problems of too much thinking. At level one choose abilities priced up to 20 points total, write the leftover points next to your experience score (or some other place). Play. Then hits the level 2, you get 12 points, use them as you wish. Don't bother about coming levels yet. Take those abilities that are useful for you now and describe your idea of the fighter the best. Play.
LoneFlame 07-31-07, 11:17 AM	I suppose if someone wants to go through the effort, more power to them.