Post/Author/DateTime	Post
technodemon 11-25-05, 12:33 PM	Ok first of all I put this thread in this forum to get reactions from non eberron players but players who likes the artificer class. Second, I like to know would any players play artificers in non-eberron games like Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms or any other world. Also which playable races (non-eberron cultures) would or could you see being an Artificer?
Dionon 11-25-05, 01:29 PM	I don't know about Ebberon, i've never played it, but Forgotten Realms has a Prestige Class named Gnome Artificer... if it's something similar, then only Gnomes and Humans from the Gnome's homeland of Lantan can apply. In another campaign setting I would allow it to Gnomes and Humans from Gnome Dominated areas :D
Ocom 11-25-05, 03:06 PM	Maester from Complete Adventurer doubles crafting speed, gives two item creation feats and increases existing spellcaster level and identification :)
JesteroftheDeep 11-25-05, 03:20 PM	you know, i think that the artificer class really requires a totaly magic drenched campaign to really make sence or be strong enough. But thats Just me :D
pwatson1974 11-25-05, 03:34 PM	you know, i think that the artificer class really requires a totaly magic drenched campaign to really make sence or be strong enough. But thats Just me :D Should fit right into the Realms. Something must be creating all those weapons. Personally, I allow the Artificer in my games that aren't on Eberron. And I can easily see dwarves taking to it far more than to the wizard class to create their magical devices.
farfairer 11-25-05, 06:14 PM	I play FR, Ebberon, Greyhawk, and a couple of homebrewed settings and to be honest I don't think Artificers work well outside of Ebberon. As far as mechanics go the problem I have with artificers is the time it takes to use and infusion. Most Infusions take 1 round or longer to cast. So if you don't use action points (wich can lower the casting time of an infusion to 1 round if it is normally longer), I think their abilities take to long to be usefull in combat. Also infusions are not spells, and therefor an Artificer cannot qualify for any PRC that requires the ability to cast spells (like Incantatrix or Mage Lord). As for balance in the game world goes. I don't think Artificers fit Grehawk at all. It is a lower magic world in many ways to both Ebberon and FR. In FR, the world is sufficiently magic heavy that arguments in favor of them existing hold more water. However I don't like the idea of Artificers in FR. In many ways its the same reason I would never want to see Mage Lords, Incantatrix, shadow weave mages, or spellfire in Eberron. I really simply don't think they belong. Not because they couldn't fit in, but because they shouldn't. Unless you do some major rewriting to the Realms, or you make Artificers something brand new and never seen befor (which has its own issues) I don't see Artificers fitting in. FR doesn't have things like the Light Rail for a reason. Magic and technology are not as mixed as they are in Eberron, and I for one like it better that way. To me it makes more sence for there to be tons of Dwarven Battlesmiths in FR than Dwarven Artificers. And besides while there is a proliferation of magin in FR, its really not the same as in Eberron. In Sharn you have commoners walking around with feather fall tokens, but in Waterdeep, pesants don't have access to cheep one shot items as much. Eberron: Sky ships are common in most countries, FR: Shy ships are only made in Halrua. I think these things would have to change if Artificers had always been around. Now on the other hand if Arificers are a brand new thing (such as a PC is the first known of), my problem is how is he learning to do these things in the amount of time it takes an average PC to gain a level. What I mean by this is if Artificers are a new thing to the realms (and you don't much things up with planar travel from Eberron to the Realms which acording to Eberron's cosmology shouldn't be possible), and it takes a PC an average of say a month of adventuring to get to level 3, how is he discovering new infusions? Studying new spells makes sence, since they all already exist somewhere in the realms, but making a new spell (or infusion) takes alot of time and engery. So my reasoning is that if Artificers are something brand new and never befor heard of in the Realms you should need to spend time and money reaserching each and every new infusion you learn following the rules for spell reaserch in the DMG. And by doing that you are prevented from being usefull as an adventurer. In home-brewed worlds Artificers work as well as the GM (or world creator) allows. These are my reasons for not liking Artificers in worlds other than Eberron.
Quirriff 11-25-05, 08:28 PM	They might work well in a magic saturated campaign *Spits*, where everyone has a magic item *coughs*, However settings with as much magic as Ebberron make me sick. However from what I saw I have no objection for having artifcers in low magic games such as greyhawk, but on a controlled level as Greyhawk has Psionics, but on a controlled level, and Magic, but on a Controlled level. For example limiting them to an NPC only class (such as LG does with Warlocks) wouldn't ruin the setting.
Gnarl 11-26-05, 05:33 AM	Well the artificer is basicaly a magical tinker. My point of view is that in a world with magic and primitive clockwork devices, at least some people experiment a combination of both. That's where the artificer comes in. On the other hand, I can perfectly understand that some people may be reluctant to introducing them in other game worlds than Eberon. The artificer doesn't realy fit to the classical heroic fantasy settings we all enjoy so much. As a DM, I wouldn't mind having a couple of them in my games, but they certainly wouldn't be as common as fighters, rogues or clerics.
Raven1272 11-26-05, 09:00 AM	My homwbrew world, the Jaded Empires, has 3 eras of play in it. Grim and Gritty, The Golden Age, and the Steam Age. Once the third era roles around both the artificier and the grunmage become available classes. So to answer the original question, artificiers mechanically work just fine outside of eberron, however they conceptually could cause problems if the world doesn't have an Industrial Revolution streak running through it. The revolution could be steam, magic or otherwise, but artificiers need a reason to crank out items to make them fit conceptually. Atleast that's my opinion.
Xabre 11-26-05, 01:41 PM	I'm currently working on a FR character... a Warforged Artificer. I used alot out of Races of Eberron, including Racial Substitution. My bg story for it all? A Red Wizard of Thay opened a planar gate to Eberron, and traded with a House Cannith mage... he gave the Cannith a spell book of summoning lore... and the Cannith mage gave him a newly crafted Warforged with the brain repository for Artificing... something the Realms had little to none of. Granted, from there he escapes, hence becoming a PC... but it is a way to introduce a modicum of Artificer into the Realms. And strapping it to a Warforged does make a bit of sense, as the Racial levels of Artificer make bigger, badder warforged.
Dionon 11-26-05, 01:58 PM	What is an Artificer anyway? I've never heard of it (I never got Ebberon...) Someone put the progression up or direct me to the class please :D I thought it was like Faerun's Gnome Artificer class that does Magic with Technology, but from what I am guessing, that was a wrong guess..
hiryuu 11-26-05, 02:18 PM	What is an Artificer anyway? I've never heard of it (I never got Ebberon...) Someone put the progression up or direct me to the class please :D I thought it was like Faerun's Gnome Artificer class that does Magic with Technology, but from what I am guessing, that was a wrong guess.. Can't post it, but it's a class what makes magic items, like all those +1 swords lying around all over the place.
Blaque 11-26-05, 05:03 PM	What is an Artificer anyway? I've never heard of it (I never got Ebberon...) Someone put the progression up or direct me to the class please :D I thought it was like Faerun's Gnome Artificer class that does Magic with Technology, but from what I am guessing, that was a wrong guess.. As noted above, since the ECS isn't OGC, we can't post the progression of the Artificer. However, I can give you some summary stuff on it I think wihtout much problem. The basic idea of the class is to make as many magical items as possible. In Eberron, the guys who make all the +1 weapons about, or a bunch of the other gear in existance are the Artificers. They're the innovators, makers, and doers. Some ideas people have noted as neat inspirations are Q from James Bond fame, Leonardo D'Vinci's creations, or the likes of Tesla. They're the innovators, makers, and tinkerers of the setting, and pioneers of a lot of Eberron's magical world. There are a few key things with Artificers: - As they progress, they gain access to all the item creation feats except Craft Construct, Etch Schema (an Eberron-specific feat), and Bind Elemental (also Eberron-specific). Using the UMD skill, they then emulate various spells to make wands, scrolls, bags'o'holdin', or whatever. They also get some bonus feats that can be used to do this more effectively. Something of note is they can use any spell to do this. This means that some items that require a lot of teamwork between artisans of other classes, or a very specific build, Artificers just sorta make. - They gain a "Craft Reserve" which is a pool of phantom XP they can use instead of their own XP in order to make magical items without slowing their progression. This helps to keep them caught up with the group, an dallows them to "suit up" more, since a lot of their ability as a caster or utility dude is based on having a pile of magical items on their person. - Artificers also get what are called Infusions. Spell-type powers dealing with repairing magical items, playing with the magical effects of magic items, making things magical temporarliy, constructs, or alchemical effects. I personally see them being sort of like the transmutation circles in Full Metal Alchemist, for anyone's who seen that. And to note on above post, as of Magic of Eberron, Infusions do count as spells for purposes of classes, as long as the class doesn't require specifically arcane or divine spells. - Artificers are actually most often humans then anything else in the setting. Though, most nay race in Eberron makes a fine human, save for maybe those with Cha and Int penalties (in this case, shifters come to mind immediately.) The overall role of an Artificer varies. They often make a good "supplementary caster" and group-equipper. They end up in my eyes either giving the party a bit of a nice equipment edge, helps them have what htey need instead of just what htye found, and if built towards it, can be a blaster pretty nicely too, though it gets pretty gp-intensive to do such. And stuff. See, you can atleast describe waht they do. Gotta get the book to see how its done though. Stuff.
technodemon 11-26-05, 10:02 PM	If the feat Eschew Materials can be used on Infusions or a feat similar to this for infusions than you can become ELric from full Metal Alchemist that someone mentione here another thread.
Blaque 11-26-05, 10:36 PM	Pretty much. Atleast for the ones with cheap material components atleast:) Stuff.
Morrowner 11-27-05, 12:29 AM	Is this like the tinker class in the World of Warcraft game? Because in a recent campaign centered around modern advances leading to questioning of the old religions and PO'ing the gods in a major way. Steampunky-mech suit with a thorium gat at my side=all hell breakin' loose. I've heard the class is nifty and balanced, just make sure you have a decent reason for it. A lone artificer in a gritty world nigh-devoid of magic is super hard to justify.
a_psh 11-27-05, 12:59 AM	What's important to remember here is that Eberron artificers don't necessarily have anything to do with technology. They're basically focused on studying the magic of magic items and manipulating magic on a very low, component-level basis, much like someone using UMD on a wand can be described as doing, I guess. I see it as being fairly reasonable for any game in which the DM would be willing to let PCs craft their own items. The only real flavor limitation is that artifice is a more trimmed-down, no-nonsense approach to magic, in many ways. It's about breaking down the Lego castle and seeing what else you can build with the peices, conceptually. This doesn't work for settings where magic is viewed with excessive reverence and superstition, certainly.
malisteen 11-27-05, 03:41 AM	They don't really have much of a technology oriented feel. More of a magic item oriented feel. The don't get any special abilities related to clockworks, or pullys, or anything of that nature, only in making and manipulating magical items of the same types that regular casters can make. In any event, they work just as well thematically, and much better mechanically, as that gnomish artificer PrC from Lanten in the Realms. Think of them forging items and they make sense for dwarves as well, especially the pro-magic gold dwarves. The Realms are every bit as magic saturated as Eberron (more so in terms of high level magic), as mentioned there are magic weapons and other items absolutely everywhere, so a class specializing in manipulating those items and the magics in them makes a lot of sence. In short, I wouldn't feel bad about adding them to the Realms wholesale, although they'd have to contend with the lack of action points. In Greyhawk... well... magic is somewhat less overpowering in that setting. It's by no means a 'low magic setting', but magic is much less intrusive in the lives of the common people. A magic sword or wand is rare enough that an entire 20 level class dedicated to the creation and manipulation of such items seems excessive. That said, any thing fits if the GM says so, and adding in Artificers in a limited way (perhaps racially or geographically restricted; a small conclave practicing a unique and possibly new approach to magic) can be done without greatly disturbing the balance of the setting.
a_psh 11-27-05, 04:42 AM	In Greyhawk... well... magic is somewhat less overpowering in that setting. It's by no means a 'low magic setting', but magic is much less intrusive in the lives of the common people. A magic sword or wand is rare enough that an entire 20 level class dedicated to the creation and manipulation of such items seems excessive. That said, any thing fits if the GM says so, and adding in Artificers in a limited way (perhaps racially or geographically restricted; a small conclave practicing a unique and possibly new approach to magic) can be done without greatly disturbing the balance of the setting. Well, here's something cliched but usable... With a slight reflavoring (though probably 0 mechanical tweaking), the artificer makes for a great dwarven master smith (well, the kind of master smith that likes to play with the toys he makes... but that's the really the only kind that makes a good adventuring character anyway). Their magic, while different, mostly does boil down to flash-enchanting items in the middle of combat, after all. Just like with the wizard, one can reinterpret the artificer's infusions as anything from runic magic (for a nice old-school-y Norse feel) to arcane geometry, completely changing the class' identity and flavor without touching the mechanics at all, more or less.
farfairer 11-28-05, 05:28 AM	My problem with intorducing Artificers into a game in a limited way, like some people have suggested, actually comes from a GMing and gaming style perspecetive more than anything. The balance problem doesn't come into play so much if only NPCs are allowed to be artificers, it comes when PCs are allowed. And this is where GMing and gaming style comes into play. You see, the group I play with has a very simple philosophy when it comes to characters: If the class exists, and you can find a teacher, you can take the class. If it is a basic (or core) class you can start with that class as a level 1 character. The Artificer as a PC can grossly unbalance a game, not becasue of infusions, but becasue of their crafting. The artificer can charge the group little to nothing for items, and suffer nothing because of the crafting pool. If you allow the crafting feats from Eberron that reduce the money, time and XP cost this gets even more unbalanced, because the party doesn't need to spend their money on magic items. Additionally the artificers ability to un-make items and gain XP into his crafting pool means that the group doesn't need to sell magic items as much, they simply give the usless magic items to the artificer to break down and use the XP to make new stuff.
malisteen 11-28-05, 09:54 AM	by 'limited' I don't mean NPC only. I mean that the class is not common or well known to the general campaign world, and thus has had little impact on the nature of the world. For instance: Artificers are new, and haven't had time to saturate the world's cities with magical doodads. Or Artificers mainly stick to a small geographic area, and have little effect as a group on the rest of the world. Both of those would allow you to run the world without serious changes to its history, economy, or character, but would allow access to the class for players, which in my mind would be the final goal of adding them to a setting at all.