Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BloodPuppy 01-27-08, 06:13 PM	Ive read it several times but i just cant figure how an artificer would heal someone in combat.
Sinfire Titan 01-27-08, 07:04 PM	They can make, and use, wands of CLWs. 'Nuff said.
BloodPuppy 01-27-08, 07:08 PM	Can he cast it on at item like he does with spells like bull str?
rjsilverthorn 01-27-08, 07:22 PM	Can he cast it on at item like he does with spells like bull str? Not directly, since it isn't on the infusion list like Bull's Strength is. They could use the spell storing item infusion to do so, but it would have an XP cost.
Vindiction7 01-29-08, 06:28 PM	Use Greater Healing Armor from Magic Item Compendium with your second level infusions. This gives two charges of 3d8+15 healing usable as either a swift action or an automatic non-action if you become unconscious, for a mere 50gp. Hard to beat for 3rd level healing. Additionally, an artificer can outfit an ENTIRE PARTY with Healing Belts from MiC for about 1000g if they have Extraordinary Artisan, and this can easily be accomplished at very low level. This means that the entire party suddenly can burst heal for 4d8 or heal a total of 6d8 over the course of the day, for a total of 24d8 for a whole party. This is also very hard to beat at level 3. They can also cheaply produce wands of CLW or, better yet, Lesser Vigor from Spell Compendium to manage out of combat healing. Essentially, what I'm getting at is not only can an artificer heal... but he's quite possibly the best healer in the game at low-mid levels!
JaronK 01-29-08, 06:31 PM	Another option is a wand of Lesser Mass Vigor. 10+caster level (max 15)hp healed with every charge, though it's too slow for in combat healing. JaronK
rjsilverthorn 01-29-08, 06:36 PM	Use Greater Healing Armor from Magic Item Compendium with your second level infusions. This gives two charges of 3d8+15 healing usable as either a swift action or an automatic non-action if you become unconscious, for a mere 50gp. Hard to beat for 3rd level healing. Since Greater Healing Armor has a Synergy with Healing Armor there is a question as to whether it works with the Armor Enhancement infusion.
Vindiction7 01-29-08, 11:19 PM	Since Greater Healing Armor has a Synergy with Healing Armor there is a question as to whether it works with the Armor Enhancement infusion. It seems obvious to me that you would just stack the costs of the two, much like a flaming burst weapon is a +2 instead of a +1, since it adds extra effects onto the +1 ability. The ECS obviously couldn't account for synergies since they were developed afterwords. I'm sure any halfway reasonable DM would say the same, seeing as the whole point of synergies was just to create those same effects (such as Flaming Burst) without the ridiculousness of not being able to upgrade a Flaming weapon to a Flaming Burst weapon. 8000+24000gp = 32000gp, which is still beneath the limit. Another option is a wand of Lesser Mass Vigor. 10+caster level (max 15)hp healed with every charge, though it's too slow for in combat healing. JaronK I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you didn't bother to run the math on that horrifically stupid idea. At minimum caster level (5) the wand has a base cost of 11,250 gold and can affect up to TWO people. You know how many wands of lesser vigor you can get for 11,250 gp? FIFTEEN. (http://www.youfail.org/) You truly have suggested a masterful way of wasting money for no bloody reason. Yep, that's right. FIFTEEN. (http://www.youfail.org/) I could have healed 8250 hp, spread out as I pleased amongst party members without worrying of the waste if there weren't two people to heal, or I could have healed a maximum of 1500hp, probably wasting more due to different hp amounts on different people, for the same price and no time saved. I don't know, what sounds better? 8250, or with extra efficiency waste potential? Last I checked, 8250 was a much bigger number than 1500, and efficiency was a good thing. But maybe I'm just old-fashioned. Yeah. Right. Oh yeah, and Mass Lesser Vigor maxes at 25, not 15. Oh, and if you try to early-craft it at level 3, it only heals one person, and for 12hp per charge. So, it heals 600hp compared to a Lesser Vigor wand's 550, except that Mass Lesser Vigor just cost you 15 times as much.
JaronK 01-29-08, 11:29 PM	I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you didn't bother to run the math on that horrifically stupid idea. At minimum caster level (5) the wand has a base cost of 11,250 gold and can affect up to TWO people. You'd be better off getting two Lesser Vigor wands for every person that would be affected by a casting of the spell. Where did you get the idea that the minimum caster level for a first level wand was 5? The idea is in fact quite smart. Just make a caster level 1 wand of lesser vigor, which is as cheap as any other level 1 spell wand, and use that for 11 hp of healing. It's the cheapest healing wand in existance. JaronK
Vindiction7 01-29-08, 11:44 PM	Where did you get the idea that the minimum caster level for a first level wand was 5? The idea is in fact quite smart. Just make a caster level 1 wand of lesser vigor, which is as cheap as any other level 1 spell wand, and use that for 11 hp of healing. It's the cheapest healing wand in existance. JaronK You didn't say Lesser Vigor, now did you? You said "Lesser Mass Vigor." Your response also seems to indicate that you did not fully read the text you quoted, since it does not provide any evidence that you recognized that I referred to Lesser Vigor as what you SHOULD get. Right there in the text you quoted. Reading people's posts before replying is a virtue. Another option is a wand of Lesser Mass Vigor. 10+caster level (max 15)hp healed with every charge, though it's too slow for in combat healing. JaronK Mass Lesser Vigor is a 3rd level spell. And indeed, if you actually intended to refer to Lesser Vigor, you wouldn't have needed to say "another option," since Lesser Vigor had already been suggested. Huh. How about that?
JaronK 01-30-08, 01:30 AM	You didn't say Lesser Vigor, now did you? You said "Lesser Mass Vigor." Your response also seems to indicate that you did not fully read the text you quoted, since it does not provide any evidence that you recognized that I referred to Lesser Vigor as what you SHOULD get. Right there in the text you quoted. Reading people's posts before replying is a virtue. Stop being insulting. But you're right. I somehow wrote Lesser Mass Vigor, despite absolutely not meaning to do that. I meant Lesser Vigor, which should be obvious. Mass Lesser Vigor is a 3rd level spell. And indeed, if you actually intended to refer to Lesser Vigor, you wouldn't have needed to say "another option," since Lesser Vigor had already been suggested. Huh. How about that? I also did not see that an earlier poster had suggested it. That said, there are better ways to debate concepts online than what you're doing right now. You even went back and edited your post to be even more hostile, despite the fact that in my post I was clearly spelling out the rules for Lesser Vigor (including the max of 15 hitpoints). Even with all that, it's still not as stupid an idea as you're suggesting, as an Artificer can persist the spell using his class abilities and give the entire party fast healing 1 for 24 hours. JaronK
Vindiction7 01-30-08, 09:13 AM	Even with all that, it's still not as stupid an idea as you're suggesting Talk about being hypocritical, man. This comes right after you say that insulting people in any way on internet forums is wrong. In true troll form, you come out and call an idea stupid, without noting which idea you are referring to or why you think it's stupid. Now, would you care to point out what "stupid idea" I suggested? I said that *you would be better off* buying 15 lesser vigor wands, COMPARED to buying a mass lesser vigor scroll. Nowhere did I suggest that you actually buy 15 lesser vigor wands. I can only repeat: Actually reading the posts you respond to is a virtue. Just do it. Save the good people a headache. Or perhaps you think one of the other ideas is stupid? Who knows, right? It's not like you clarify anything you say. Maybe you think that it's a stupid idea to heal a total of 6d8+30 hp with swift actions at the mere level of *3rd,* or to subsidize healing cheaply with Healing Belts as well as providing everyone with very good burst healing for combat. Or maybe you think it was bad for me to suggest buying Lesser Vigor wands, which you claim to have meant to suggest yourself. Now, explain why those ideas are stupid in your twisted logic, eh? As an artificer healer, straight off the lowest levels, I've expended a minimum of resources and completely covered all healing for the party, providing both burst heals and full after-combat rejuvenation. It takes only a fraction of your starting gold at level 3 (a little over 1000g with Extraordinary Artisan, less if you want to be cheesy and stack things from other supplements) to provide a party with 30d8 healing per day (renewable) and the oppurtunity for 4d8 burst heals *from anyone in the party,* and carry 110gp (use SCROLLS of vigor, not wands, at low level.) of healing that you can distribute as needed to curb any leftover damage after a fight. You can further augment any given character for 50gp with two charges of 3d8+15 hp, usable as swift actions or even auto-healing if a person goes unconscious. That number is enough that it will full heal most characters twice at level 3. Boy, that must sound stupid to you, huh? Level 3 characters with 30d8 healing per day, usable from any character in the party as tactics demand, infusions that full heal you twice without wasting actions, and being able to fully heal everyone between fights? Yeah, that's a BAD idea. I can't imagine what I was thinking. Maybe just that artificers are pretty much the best low-level healers hands down. :rolleyes: As for Persistent Lesser Vigor: It's also worth noting that the rules specifically state that you cannot extend to the Vigor line of spells (Though I'm sure you're unaware) though supplemental material like Persistent Spell is not addressed in the errata, thus making persistent possible by strict RAW. However, many DMs would extend that logic to apply to Persistent Spell when adding in their supplements. Or, many DMs may disallow it altogether, since Persistent Spell is one of the most commonly banned feats out there. Though it is technically allowed by RAW, I tend not to suggest things that I think are a bit "too good." Sure, I could tell you how to make a cheap little trap that will heal your party infinitely in a core-only group even better than a persistent vigor spell... but I hardly consider that to be "practical optimization." I also did not see that an earlier poster had suggested it. The post right before yours posted it, plain as day. Use Greater Healing Armor from Magic Item Compendium with your second level infusions. This gives two charges of 3d8+15 healing usable as either a swift action or an automatic non-action if you become unconscious, for a mere 50gp. Hard to beat for 3rd level healing. Additionally, an artificer can outfit an ENTIRE PARTY with Healing Belts from MiC for about 1000g if they have Extraordinary Artisan, and this can easily be accomplished at very low level. This means that the entire party suddenly can burst heal for 4d8 or heal a total of 6d8 over the course of the day, for a total of 24d8 for a whole party. This is also very hard to beat at level 3. They can also cheaply produce wands of CLW or, better yet, Lesser Vigor from Spell Compendium to manage out of combat healing. Essentially, what I'm getting at is not only can an artificer heal... but he's quite possibly the best healer in the game at low-mid levels!
JaronK 01-31-08, 03:56 PM	Talk about being hypocritical, man. This comes right after you say that insulting people in any way on internet forums is wrong. In true troll form, you come out and call an idea stupid, without noting which idea you are referring to or why you think it's stupid. Now, would you care to point out what "stupid idea" I suggested? I wrote "It's still not as stupid an idea as you're suggesting." As in, the idea of using Lesser Mass Vigor for healing with a wand is not as stupid an idea as you claim the idea is. I then demonstrated how it could be made useful (via persistant spell). I did not write "It's still not as stupid as an idea you're suggesting" which would mean what you seem to think I meant. You really need to calm down. I can only repeat: Actually reading the posts you respond to is a virtue. Just do it. Save the good people a headache. Agreed. As for Persistent Lesser Vigor: It's also worth noting that the rules specifically state that you cannot extend to the Vigor line of spells (Though I'm sure you're unaware) though supplemental material like Persistent Spell is not addressed in the errata, thus making persistent possible by strict RAW. I'm quite aware of the rules regarding Persistant spell, specifically the fact that it overwrites the normal limit for the Vigor line. Extend spell does not work, and you're correct about that. Persistant spell does. The post right before yours posted it, plain as day. Yes, and I missed that, which I mentioned. JaronK
Vindiction7 01-31-08, 04:59 PM	I wrote "It's still not as stupid an idea as you're suggesting." As in, the idea of using Lesser Mass Vigor for healing with a wand is not as stupid an idea as you claim the idea is. I then demonstrated how it could be made useful (via persistant spell). I did not write "It's still not as stupid as an idea you're suggesting" which would mean what you seem to think I meant. Why, prey tell, would it be more economical to persist mass lesser vigor? Considering that mass lesser vigor is *15 times as costly* and only affects *one more person* than lesser vigor, with a CL of 5 at base price and the ability to target 1 person per 2 CL (so unless you raise the CL significantly, you don't affect a whole party, and if you do raise it, your cost shoots up significantly) all the extra charges that you could pour into persistent spell would *still* be more cheaply used with a Lesser Vigor wand barring very special circumstances. So you're *still* wrong, and mass lesser vigor is *still* a bad idea. :rolleyes: You really need to calm down. Oh look, baiting/trolling. Suggesting that someone is angry or otherwise emotional (and by extension unreasonable) is a common ad hominem attack used in flamewars, and also happens to be an established logical fallacy that has no place in any civil argument. The statement serves no purpose except to instigate whoever you say it to (thus, baiting). I am perfectly calm, and you just violated the CoC. I'm not taking the bait, so you can stop now. ____ For more useful stuff on artificer healing, in addition to the advice I already gave, you can have a look at this great post for some more generally useful stuff: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=900290&highlight=player%27s+guide+to+healing+%2 8and+why
Nightshade 01-31-08, 07:37 PM	Artificers can also Scribe Scrolls of Cure Light Wounds, Cure Moderate Wounds, and Cure Serious Wounds. He gets that feat at level 1 and gets a +2 CL for purposes of crafting so he can scribe CLW and CMW scrolls from level 1 (although the latter are costly at level 1).
Watsyurname529 01-31-08, 08:19 PM	To the OP, an Artificer uses the magic items he/she creates to heal people. This can be in the form of wands, scrolls, or other magical items. A favorite healing item is the Healing Belt in the MIC. For 750gp you get a total 6d8's worth of healing. Now, a word to both Vindiction7 and JaronK. Both of you honestly need to calm down and realizing that you're arguing over something so meaningless. Stop yelling at each other and constantly trying to out do the other as I've read the entire thread. Vindiction, you actually started it all by complaining about his "horrifically stupid idea" and then both of you start to be hypocrits and start to yell at each other. Sorry for just butting in and saying that, and if I violated the CoC sorry for that too, but I just wanted to point out what both of you were doing.
Vindiction7 01-31-08, 09:22 PM	Now, a word to both Vindiction7 and JaronK. Both of you honestly need to calm down and realizing that you're arguing over something so meaningless. Stop yelling at each other and constantly trying to out do the other as I've read the entire thread. Vindiction, you actually started it all by complaining about his "horrifically stupid idea" and then both of you start to be hypocrits and start to yell at each other. Look, flaming! As soon as you make personal comments, that becomes flaming. (Actually, calling someone a hypocrite to oppose their argument is actually called ad hominem tu quorque, and is a form of logical fallacy. If it's not used to oppose their argument, it's just a personal attack with no relevance to a conversation. If there's no justification, then it's baseless flaming). Telling me I'm yelling at someone or otherwise less than calm is just plain false (heck, there isn't even a single instance of caps). And of course, you can't point out a single example, because you have no basis for your comments. I may seem (to you) to be harsh when I argue against a bad point, but it's all within the limits of proper argumentation, and has consistently stayed to the points, rather than being personal. Your comments, however, are not. Mind not trying to derail the thread further? I pointed out that his idea was BAD. There was no complaint. There was an effort to dissuade the OP from taking *bad advice* by debunking it. Attacks on arguments are, and always have been, fair game. I'm not sure why that seems to be a point of *contention* to you. Complaining would be what you are doing right now ;) Sorry for just butting in and saying that, and if I violated the CoC sorry for that too, but I just wanted to point out what both of you were doing. If you have to ask, you probably shouldn't be doing it. Anywho, you did absolutely nothing but make inflammatory and baseless accusations of hypocrisy and yelling without even the least bit of justification for your position. I just wanted to point out what you were doing Geez, this is what I get for giving helpful advice. Now I remember why I left last time.
Watsyurname529 01-31-08, 09:42 PM	Well honestly I thought with your perfectly calm self, I didn't need to cite the sources which can be found by scrolling up on the page but I will now. I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you didn't bother to run the math on that horrifically stupid idea. At minimum caster level (5) the wand has a base cost of 11,250 gold and can affect up to TWO people. You know how many wands of lesser vigor you can get for 11,250 gp? FIFTEEN. (http://www.youfail.org/) You truly have suggested a masterful way of wasting money for no bloody reason. Yep, that's right. FIFTEEN. (http://www.youfail.org/) I could have healed 8250 hp, spread out as I pleased amongst party members without worrying of the waste if there weren't two people to heal, or I could have healed a maximum of 1500hp, probably wasting more due to different hp amounts on different people, for the same price and no time saved. I don't know, what sounds better? 8250, or with extra efficiency waste potential? Last I checked, 8250 was a much bigger number than 1500, and efficiency was a good thing. But maybe I'm just old-fashioned. Yeah. Right. Oh yeah, and Mass Lesser Vigor maxes at 25, not 15. Oh, and if you try to early-craft it at level 3, it only heals one person, and for 12hp per charge. So, it heals 600hp compared to a Lesser Vigor wand's 550, except that Mass Lesser Vigor just cost you 15 times as much. Well right there, 1. You're being insulting by the same means you called JaronK being insulting. 2. Not only are there caps, but they are bolded and italicized for further emphasis. Also, just wondering, how is telling some one to calm down making a personal comment? And if that was, explain to me how calling someone's ideas stupid and telling them that they have suggested nothing but a waste of space isn't?
WizO_Kwai_Chang 01-31-08, 09:45 PM	Everyone, please, let's keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic. Thanks.