Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Slayer_5 09-20-05, 04:15 PM	I am playing an eberron game for the first time (actually, all of us are), and we have an artificer. Now, I think he is taking advantage of the item creation rules, and is doing some pretty dumb things, and neither Myself or the DM have fully read the artificer class. I know that makes us look bad. But heres the crap that happens, and I need to know if it actually can be done. Note: not all of these things have been made. Some were proposed and shot down by the DM. A glove that has infinate magic missiles per day "Spell storing" rocks that work amazingly like potions, except they have truestrike, or any spell for that matter in them. Like fireball. And anyone can use it. A homonculuous, (sp?), as well as several other constructs he's created Scrolls. Lots of scrolls. Divine scrolls that he can use easier then the cleric, and arcane scrolls he can use easier then the sorceror. Creating wands of spells before the sorceror gets them Through the feats that cut down XP and GP costs, and the above said "imbued rocks", a caster that gets spells 2 levels before anyone else, can choose any spell on any list, and can cast them spontaneously like a sorce, albeit at a full round casting time. Please tell me the artificer class does NOT work this way, because the RAW seems to suggest so.
Ithamar 09-20-05, 04:34 PM	No. That player is doing so many things wrong it makes my head hurt. I see from your signature that one of the people you respect is Edymnion. Check out this thread he started on the Eberron boards regarding Artificers. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=373293) Read that, read the Eberron source book carefully, then smack your player in the head with it. (The book, not the thread.)
Jaid 09-20-05, 04:51 PM	also, from what i can tell, a large part of the problem is not the artificer, per se. a large part of the problem comes from (attempted) shameless abuse of the item creation rules. for example, magic missile gloves with infinite uses. remember, whenever anyone (artificer or not) designs a new item, the item MUST be approved by the DM. period. it's actually in the rulebooks, in writing. specifically so that this kinda stuff doesn't happen. because it is entirely possible to use the rules in ways they weren't intended... such as a ring of true strike, always on, for 2,000 GP (actual value: 400,000 GP, as i recall... except it's epic, which multiplies that by 10 or something). so, basically, the most important thing is to get familiar with the item creation rules, and remember that those pricing guidelines are only guidelines.
Colmarr 09-20-05, 06:11 PM	The rule Jaid is referring to is this one: Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item that is already priced using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values. Your DM should live it and love it, and quite possibly tattoo it on the artificer's player's forehead...
RadicalTaoist 09-20-05, 06:15 PM	Bah, he needs custom items to rock? You ain't seen the worst of it, buddy. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=287275)
memorax 09-20-05, 06:58 PM	Yes he can do those things. The thing about DMing the Artificier is to both allow and disallow certain items that he creates. If all you are going to do is say no to everything he is going to create do not be suprised if the player either multiclasses or asks to make another character or at worst leaves your game. There is a reason the class is called Artificer. It not because it sounds cute it's because they create stuff. If you strip the player of that than do not even bother allowing that class into the game. Otherwise why play it? Also as the party gets more and more treasure the Artificer will probably be asked to make items for the players and wants to make better items for himself. The trick is like I said allow some disallow some. We have an Artificer in our current Eberron group and it's no problem for the DM. As for some of the items I do not find the glove of magic missles unbalancing. One unless it's a high level version the damage is not to high and they are blocked by shield spells. If it was a glove of Fireball than I would consider it unbalancing. Spell storing rocks. Not unbalancing at all check gem magic in Magic of Faerun very similiar. I am not sure you can use them as potions though. The homonculuous not unbalancing at all either. It cannot do much damage and is more of scouting creature than anyting else. Scrolls the wizard can make them the sorcerere can get the ability to make them and the Artifier only has up to level six spells unless he multiclasses. Scrolls cost money and time to make so unless he gets the time and the money he cannot make them. Though by not allowing him to make any scrolls at all you are essentially screwing the pc over. Wands see scrolls above As for the feats I would be doing the exact same thing. An artificer creates items why would he not take feats that cut down on item creation time and costs? It like complaining that most pcs who play fighters almost always take Whirlwind Attack. He would be dumb not to take those feats. From what I can see you may want to make the Artifier an NPC class in your game. You cannot remove them entirely they are too much a part of the background. Otherwise let your feeling be known on the subject and come up with houserules for the situation at the start of the game not during the game it can cause problems. Do not under any circumstances smack your pc in the head with the book! It can get you hurt and cancel your game.
Fuzzyd20 09-20-05, 06:59 PM	Paint the magic item rules on a brick. Shoot the player in the face with said brick. Yes, I said shoot. From a brick gun. Brick Gun Exotic Ranged Weapon Damage: 2d8, x3, bludgeoning Range: 30 ft. A brick gun is a most pimptacular weapon, often used for pwning noobs. It wrecks a face so bad even heal can't fix it. Reloading a brick gun is a full-round action which provokes attacks of opportunity.
slade_caizer 09-20-05, 07:23 PM	So far everything you've listed sounds 100% legal except for getting the spells earlier than everyone else. Unfortunately I don't have the book to check up on Artificer right now. It could be that they can, but I find that suspicious. If the player in question took Craft Construct, that's tough s*** for you, isn't it? As for puting spells into rocks, you must not have read Complete Arcane--or at least not deeply enough. Perfectly fine. The Homunculus is basically the equivalent of his 'familiar' but without any bonuses IIRC. A glove of use-activated Magic Missile? What's the caster level? If it's 1, I wouldn't care. If it's 9 I might care. You should glance at the CO boards. Would you like to know some of the most "broken" classes? Here's a short list in no particular order: Cleric20, Druid20, Artificer20, Warlock18/Chameleon2. The last one isn't as earth-shattering as the others, but it has most of the potential of the Artificer. What I'd like to know is this: has the player actually done anything wrong (except possibly trying to get access to spells too early--which is very bad) or are you just angry that he's outshining most of the party? BTW most well played Artificers do. Hrmm....it wouldn't happen to be a Warforged Artificer would it? *shudder* ------- Fuzzy...LMAO :rofl::rofl::rofl:
Count Arioch the 28th 09-20-05, 07:38 PM	Paint the magic item rules on a brick. Shoot the player in the face with said brick. Yes, I said shoot. From a brick gun. Brick Gun Exotic Ranged Weapon Damage: 2d8, x3, bludgeoning Range: 30 ft. A brick gun is a most pimptacular weapon, often used for pwning noobs. It wrecks a face so bad even heal can't fix it. Reloading a brick gun is a full-round action which provokes attacks of opportunity. Dude, I'm totally giving that to an NPC in my game. I know you were being facetious, but that's pretty awesome.
Jaid 09-20-05, 09:57 PM	actually, as far as the gloves of magic missile go, i do have to agree that it's not that big of a deal, in terms of the 1d4+1 damage, guaranteed. although sometimes, that guaranteed can be a big deal. however, as soon as you allow one combat spell, that opens the way for others... and i, personally, would have to look at that and say that's not what the game designers intended, based off of the fact that i cannot think of a single item that allows unlimited use of even low level combat spells, and the concept is very simple and straight-forward. the spell storing stones is a bit iffy. just where is this artificer getting the spells to store anyways? while he can fool items into working, he cannot put a spell into a spellstoring item unless he has an item cast the spell for him (or is multiclassed), particularly since the artificer does not cast spells. yes, they have a mechanic is so similar to spellcasting it almost makes no difference... until you get to realising that, for example, since they aren't spells, they can't be stored. anyways, also as far as that getting access to spells before the primary casters... might be possible (as i recall, he just has to hit a high enough DC). however, keep in mind he has a set CL for when he makes items... thus, he may be getting fireball early, but if he gets it two levels early the CL will be low. and for the record, artificers can make scrolls of any spell, so long as they can hit the DC. and wands of high level spells isn't a concern, because wands can only do 4th level spells. oh, and the rule i was referring to actually is one that explicitly says the DM must approve of all new items, although the one quoted above is also good.
Marlowe_Faustus 09-20-05, 10:40 PM	the spell storing stones is a bit iffy. just where is this artificer getting the spells to store anyways? while he can fool items into working, he cannot put a spell into a spellstoring item unless he has an item cast the spell for him (or is multiclassed), particularly since the artificer does not cast spells. yes, they have a mechanic is so similar to spellcasting it almost makes no difference... until you get to realising that, for example, since they aren't spells, they can't be stored. ... Read the ECS entry for Spell Storing Item. It specifically states that the Artificer EMULATES a spell to store it. The spell is limited to 4th level or lower I believe. anyways, also as far as that getting access to spells before the primary casters... might be possible (as i recall, he just has to hit a high enough DC). however, keep in mind he has a set CL for when he makes items... thus, he may be getting fireball early, but if he gets it two levels early the CL will be low. Sorta correct. When checking for levels to see if he can create an item an Artificer's level counts as 2+Artificer levels. His CL is however still his Artificer levels. and for the record, artificers can make scrolls of any spell, so long as they can hit the DC. and wands of high level spells isn't a concern, because wands can only do 4th level spells. And where pray tell do you get that particular rule? I may not have access to the DM guide for item creation rules but I do have the XPH and as far as I know the Dorjes are Psionic wands. According to the XPH they can go to 9th level.
Colmarr 09-20-05, 11:20 PM	From here (Wand section of the SRD): A wand is a thin baton that contains a single spell of 4th level or lower.
Marlowe_Faustus 09-20-05, 11:26 PM	... You have got to be freaking kidding me... Why on gods green earth would the limit wands to 4th level but but the Psionic equivalent... That just... doesn't make sense... Unless I am absolutly blind and missed something in the Dorjes entry...
Jaid 09-20-05, 11:52 PM	because a staff doesn't take up an item slot, whereas psicrowns (the closest equivalent to a psionic staff) do. and also because psionics is different. and also because no one likes dorjes anyways. i mean, honestly... you ask someone about a dorje and they'll give you a blank stare most of the time. heck, i think even the folks over on the psionics boards prefer to pretend that dorjes don't exist =P oh, and the only text i can see talking about spell storing isn't really talking about spell storing in the same way i am referring to. that's talking about meeting item prerequisites (for example, making an item that 'stores' a magic missile spell for later use, such as a wand, scroll, or whatever of magic missile). i am referring to spell storing items... such as the ring of spell storing, the ioun stone that performs the same function, or the spell storing weapon enchantment, where you have someone cast a spell into it and then the spell can be cast from it, by anyone. kinda a different thing =P
slade_caizer 09-21-05, 12:16 AM	... You have got to be freaking kidding me... Why on gods green earth would the limit wands to 4th level but but the Psionic equivalent... That just... doesn't make sense... Unless I am absolutly blind and missed something in the Dorjes entry...The only limitations I'm finding on Dorjes are as follows: The power contained within must be on the user's class list. That means no Psychic Warriors using Psion powers without multiclassing. Of course one could take Expanded Knowledge, but that's not manifesting via the Dorje. (The feat places it in powers known, but doesn't alter the class list) The power may be made at a higher manifester level to augment the power, however it may not be more than 5 levels higher than the minimum manifester level needed to normally manifest the power. That means no Dorje will have a manifester level higher than 22 (minimum to manifest a 9th level power is 17). A Dorje with a 9th level power costs 114,750gp. A Dorje for a 4th level power costs 21,000gp. ------ A Wand for a 4th level spell costs: 21,000gp for Clr/Wiz/Drd; 24,000gp for Sor; 30,000gp for Brd; 21,000 Pal/Rgr. These all assume CL is minimum for the spell. The classes refer to the crafter, not the purchaser. Sadly wands for spells beyond 4th level are epic. As for the Wands available, their costs are on par with those of Dorjes of approximately equal power. The primary hindrance is the large cost increase as one tries to put higher level powers into a Dorje. Even if one were to generate a 20th level character (average starting wealth 760,000gp) having one Dorje for a 9th level power would expend 15% of one's resources. That's pretty hefty, but for 50 shots it may be worth it. Many DMs (myself included) typically allow one or two really expensive items valuing around 25% of a character's starting wealth. The rest are restricted to 10% or less depending upon the DM. Such a restriction would mean maybe two such Dorjes...which could have been expensive weapons or armor...or a number of other things. Still...I can't say I'm not a little disturbed at the thought of many Dorjes floating around.
Marlowe_Faustus 09-21-05, 06:34 AM	oh, and the only text i can see talking about spell storing isn't really talking about spell storing in the same way i am referring to. that's talking about meeting item prerequisites (for example, making an item that 'stores' a magic missile spell for later use, such as a wand, scroll, or whatever of magic missile). i am referring to spell storing items... such as the ring of spell storing, the ioun stone that performs the same function, or the spell storing weapon enchantment, where you have someone cast a spell into it and then the spell can be cast from it, by anyone. kinda a different thing =P Really well I was talking about the Artificer Infusion Spell Storing Item. =P Basically makes a 1 shot wand of any spell they damn well please.
RadicalTaoist 09-21-05, 12:14 PM	Whoah whoah whoah - not a problem yet, but I want to warn everyone that Artificers cannot use any of their class features with Psionic Items.
Zsasz_Diedne 09-21-05, 02:09 PM	I agree for the most part that A) Yes, he can do all of that. B) Your DM should lay some restrictive smackdown if it becomes a problem, as stated InfinMissile gloves not so big a deal, but it opens the door for things like...Polar Ray, later on. Beyond that if you want a "wand" with higher than 4th level spells, check out the Craft Scepter feat in Lost Empires of Faerun, or just wait til you get the sweet, sweet Craft Staff.
Fiery_Overlord 09-21-05, 04:27 PM	Infusions, which are different than magic items, are what a artifacer gets instead of spells. They are like spells but must be cast on an object or construct, making it holder of the effect. Also Infusions only last as long as the normal spell duration. I would make sure all the effects he is doing are on his infusion list. He has "infusion slot" just like a wizard has spell slots, it isn't unlimited. The whole rock-like-potion is how he has to pass on his magical effects rather than just casting it on the target. Why he isn't casting it on items the character is already wearing is beyond me but seems foolish as a round in transfering the rock is a round wasted off of the duration. For actual magic item crafting he must still use masterwork items, make appropriate skill checks, the normal creation time, spend the gold cost and either use his craft reserve (which is generally pretty small) or his actual xp. . As for spell trigger items (scrolls) artifacers have no special ability to use them (any more than a fighter does) even if the spell appears on the spell artifacer infussion list. This means he can't cast from scrolls, any easier than a rogue can. Read the class, I just picked up the book and figured that all out as I wrote this.
Marlowe_Faustus 09-21-05, 04:44 PM	The whole rock-like-potion is how he has to pass on his magical effects rather than just casting it on the target. Why he isn't casting it on items the character is already wearing is beyond me but seems foolish as a round in transfering the rock is a round wasted off of the duration. Those are probably actually him using the Spell Storing Item Infusion. As for spell trigger items (scrolls) artifacers have no special ability to use them (any more than a fighter does) even if the spell appears on the spell artifacer infussion list. This means he can't cast from scrolls, any easier than a rogue can. Read the class, I just picked up the book and figured that all out as I wrote this. Now quite true. They can after all take 10 on UMD checks whenever they want, once they hit the right level.
Vaelan 09-21-05, 06:16 PM	Dorjes are not restricted to 4th-level powers because the level of a power doesn't mean as much as the level of a spell. As for these gloves of magic missile, you're missing a step. Use Activated price: Spell level x Caster level x 2000 Then you look down two more lines at the Special section and see "Charges per Day". An item usable at will has 1440 charges per day, and thus you divide the price by 5/1440, or multiply it by 288. Gloves of Magic Missile (CL 1) at will would cost 1 x 1 x 2000 x 288, or 576,000gp. For those of you who haven't seen the point of all of this yet: magic item pricing is just a guideline, and not a very good one in many situations.