Assasins Stance to qualify for AT? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Assasins Stance to qualify for AT? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nachtwind
11-05-06, 10:24 AM Could the SA from the Assasins stance allow you to qualify for prc's like AT? I personally wouldn't allow it as a Dm, but it's an interesting question...
DreamerInsane
11-05-06, 01:59 PM It just states Sneak Attack +2d6.
I'd say yes, but until AT4, he'd have to assume the Assassin's Stance to benefit from the class's abilities (since without the stance he wouldn't have Sneak 2d6)
DragonChild_
11-05-06, 02:24 PM I'd say yes, but until AT4, he'd have to assume the Assassin's Stance to benefit from the class's abilities (since without the stance he wouldn't have Sneak 2d6)

You're half right. Yes, you cna use Assassin's Stance to qualify, however for PrCs you only need to qualify to take your first level, according to the DMG. So he doesn't have to keep up the stance, at all.

Really, how the heck would you handle spell-slots and stuff if he decided to drop the stance?
Jaxgaret
11-05-06, 05:09 PM You're half right. Yes, you cna use Assassin's Stance to qualify, however for PrCs you only need to qualify to take your first level, according to the DMG. So he doesn't have to keep up the stance, at all.

Really, how the heck would you handle spell-slots and stuff if he decided to drop the stance?

Are you quite positive? I've read in any number of places that if you take levels in a PrC that your character only meets the requirements for part of the time, the character only gains that PrC's benefits part of the time as well.

For example, using a Ring of Evasion to count as "Having the Evasion class ability" works only so long as your Ring of Evasion is worn and is functioning.

The above is a houserule, of course. By RAW, using a Ring of Evasion does not qualify you for any PrCs that require "Having the Evasion class ability."
Nephlite
11-05-06, 05:37 PM Are you quite positive? I've read in any number of places that if you take levels in a PrC that your character only meets the requirements for part of the time, the character only gains that PrC's benefits part of the time as well.

For example, using a Ring of Evasion to count as "Having the Evasion class ability" works only so long as your Ring of Evasion is worn and is functioning.

The above is a houserule, of course. By RAW, using a Ring of Evasion does not qualify you for any PrCs that require "Having the Evasion class ability."
Depends on the splatbooks.

CW says its Prc requires requirements at all times. So dropping stance removes ability gain, but restores them when stance restored.

I'd say Ring of Evasion gives evasion.
DrMorganes
11-05-06, 05:59 PM Personally, I've always ruled that the requirements for prestige classes must be permanent abilities possessed by the character. Translated: possessing a Ring of Evasion or being under the effects of a spell are insufficient to qualify for a prestige class.

Then again, prestige classes in my games are, well, prestigious. They require story-based events to happen in addition to the PC simply having all the prereqs. I don't allow a PC to advance in more than one PrC simultaneously, as I feel that gaining levels in a prestige class indicates a certain amount of devotion to the concept of the PrC. Very few prestige classes exist in my worlds without some sort of organization tied to them. I was VERY happy to see the return of this concept in Complete Adventurer!
Nachtwind
11-05-06, 06:38 PM Well I have to say this opens quite some possibilities for the optimizers
thx for the response
Vestigial_Thumb
11-05-06, 06:46 PM Then again, prestige classes in my games are, well, prestigious. They require story-based events to happen in addition to the PC simply having all the prereqs. I don't allow a PC to advance in more than one PrC simultaneously, as I feel that gaining levels in a prestige class indicates a certain amount of devotion to the concept of the PrC. Very few prestige classes exist in my worlds without some sort of organization tied to them. I was VERY happy to see the return of this concept in Complete Adventurer!
We have dilettantes/dabblers in real life. Why wouldn't there be dilettantes/dabblers in D&D?
saidin0111
11-05-06, 07:21 PM the latest book that I read said that for PrC's if you have items with permanent boosts, then they count, but only so long as you are under the item's effects, and that it also counts towards gaining feats, but the feats are useless without the abilities gained by the item, at least until you have them naturally

let's say you wanted to take the Their-Acrobat PrC but didn't have Evasion, to utilize the benefits of and to level up in the PrC you would need an item that granted Evasion until you reached 5th level in the class and gained Imp. Evasion, which would then count as having Evasion and continue to qualify you for the class if you unequiped the item

actually now that I think about it, I think maybe I read this on the faq :rofl: though it does make some sense, the one exception to this is skill points do not increase from wearing a headband of intellect or the like when gaining a new level, so no skill monkey munchkins that were gifted the use of a lot of + INT items as they trained up to their first class level, of course the items would have to either provide untyped bonuses or various different kinds of bonuses for them to stack, but that is irrelevant to the point anyways, though I do not see why if a wizard wears a headband of intellect for an entire level, he could not learn more over that level than if he did not have the item on, I mean, he is sharper and has enhanced mental faculties, so he should be able to comprehend things easier and therefore learn them, which does not require one to later maintain the same intelligence level to continue to utilize those skills, unless the intelligence drop was so drastic that they really could not understand the simplest of concepts behind what they had already learned
Esponer
11-05-06, 07:48 PM Assassin's Stance, whether learnt from martial adept class levels or the Martial Stance feat, can be used to qualify for Arcane Trickster, by the rules as written. Particularly in the case of a character who wishes to take the Martial Stance feat, is not otherwise a martial adept and will be using Assassin's Stance at all times, this seems fair.

According to, I believe, Complete Warrior, if you lose the prerequisites for a prestige class then you lose the class features. The most sensible interpretation of this (in my mind) is that you retain base attack bonus, skills, saving throws, spellcasting progression and otherwise open bonus feat slots, but lose class features — your sneak attack becomes inferior as an unqualified Arcane Trickster, and you lose ranged legerdemain and impromptu sneak attack.

The rules as written are a little quiet on spellcasting progression: is this lost when you lose the prerequisites or not? It might appear that the answer is yes, but as mentioned earlier in this thread this is a lot of bookkeeping and more importantly to me, doesn't seem sensible.
Quandi
11-05-06, 09:40 PM This is an interesting question, i dont know fully how these pseudo abilities apply to requirements and such and in the end comes down to the DMs opinion. Personally id say yes, keep in mind it wouldnt allow the char to get in clases that need +3d6 SA and so on, also you could rule that to get the rest of the SA gained from the Assassin PrC the char would have to stay in the stance, if they chaged theyd forfit it all.
Really though in the end its up to the DM
FloppyLlama
11-05-06, 10:06 PM I would rule they don't need to keep the stance up, but if they ever get rid of the stance (can you overwrite known stances as you advance? or is that just maneuvers) they'd lose the benefits of the prestige class. The requirements represent the necessary training/capabilities of the character to enter, and the stance represents training/capabilities of the character.

A rogue/wizard qualifies even if that character never once chooses to sneak attack. They have the ability and training to do so, as does the person who knows the Assassin's Stance.
Nachtwind
11-06-06, 04:18 AM well since you get SA as a arcane trickster it would get kind of a "was the egg or the chicken first" question if you loose the stance...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nachtwind 11-05-06, 10:24 AM	Could the SA from the Assasins stance allow you to qualify for prc's like AT? I personally wouldn't allow it as a Dm, but it's an interesting question...
DreamerInsane 11-05-06, 01:59 PM	It just states Sneak Attack +2d6. I'd say yes, but until AT4, he'd have to assume the Assassin's Stance to benefit from the class's abilities (since without the stance he wouldn't have Sneak 2d6)
DragonChild_ 11-05-06, 02:24 PM	I'd say yes, but until AT4, he'd have to assume the Assassin's Stance to benefit from the class's abilities (since without the stance he wouldn't have Sneak 2d6) You're half right. Yes, you cna use Assassin's Stance to qualify, however for PrCs you only need to qualify to take your first level, according to the DMG. So he doesn't have to keep up the stance, at all. Really, how the heck would you handle spell-slots and stuff if he decided to drop the stance?
Jaxgaret 11-05-06, 05:09 PM	You're half right. Yes, you cna use Assassin's Stance to qualify, however for PrCs you only need to qualify to take your first level, according to the DMG. So he doesn't have to keep up the stance, at all. Really, how the heck would you handle spell-slots and stuff if he decided to drop the stance? Are you quite positive? I've read in any number of places that if you take levels in a PrC that your character only meets the requirements for part of the time, the character only gains that PrC's benefits part of the time as well. For example, using a Ring of Evasion to count as "Having the Evasion class ability" works only so long as your Ring of Evasion is worn and is functioning. The above is a houserule, of course. By RAW, using a Ring of Evasion does not qualify you for any PrCs that require "Having the Evasion class ability."
Nephlite 11-05-06, 05:37 PM	Are you quite positive? I've read in any number of places that if you take levels in a PrC that your character only meets the requirements for part of the time, the character only gains that PrC's benefits part of the time as well. For example, using a Ring of Evasion to count as "Having the Evasion class ability" works only so long as your Ring of Evasion is worn and is functioning. The above is a houserule, of course. By RAW, using a Ring of Evasion does not qualify you for any PrCs that require "Having the Evasion class ability." Depends on the splatbooks. CW says its Prc requires requirements at all times. So dropping stance removes ability gain, but restores them when stance restored. I'd say Ring of Evasion gives evasion.
DrMorganes 11-05-06, 05:59 PM	Personally, I've always ruled that the requirements for prestige classes must be permanent abilities possessed by the character. Translated: possessing a Ring of Evasion or being under the effects of a spell are insufficient to qualify for a prestige class. Then again, prestige classes in my games are, well, prestigious. They require story-based events to happen in addition to the PC simply having all the prereqs. I don't allow a PC to advance in more than one PrC simultaneously, as I feel that gaining levels in a prestige class indicates a certain amount of devotion to the concept of the PrC. Very few prestige classes exist in my worlds without some sort of organization tied to them. I was VERY happy to see the return of this concept in Complete Adventurer!
Nachtwind 11-05-06, 06:38 PM	Well I have to say this opens quite some possibilities for the optimizers thx for the response
Vestigial_Thumb 11-05-06, 06:46 PM	Then again, prestige classes in my games are, well, prestigious. They require story-based events to happen in addition to the PC simply having all the prereqs. I don't allow a PC to advance in more than one PrC simultaneously, as I feel that gaining levels in a prestige class indicates a certain amount of devotion to the concept of the PrC. Very few prestige classes exist in my worlds without some sort of organization tied to them. I was VERY happy to see the return of this concept in Complete Adventurer! We have dilettantes/dabblers in real life. Why wouldn't there be dilettantes/dabblers in D&D?
saidin0111 11-05-06, 07:21 PM	the latest book that I read said that for PrC's if you have items with permanent boosts, then they count, but only so long as you are under the item's effects, and that it also counts towards gaining feats, but the feats are useless without the abilities gained by the item, at least until you have them naturally let's say you wanted to take the Their-Acrobat PrC but didn't have Evasion, to utilize the benefits of and to level up in the PrC you would need an item that granted Evasion until you reached 5th level in the class and gained Imp. Evasion, which would then count as having Evasion and continue to qualify you for the class if you unequiped the item actually now that I think about it, I think maybe I read this on the faq :rofl: though it does make some sense, the one exception to this is skill points do not increase from wearing a headband of intellect or the like when gaining a new level, so no skill monkey munchkins that were gifted the use of a lot of + INT items as they trained up to their first class level, of course the items would have to either provide untyped bonuses or various different kinds of bonuses for them to stack, but that is irrelevant to the point anyways, though I do not see why if a wizard wears a headband of intellect for an entire level, he could not learn more over that level than if he did not have the item on, I mean, he is sharper and has enhanced mental faculties, so he should be able to comprehend things easier and therefore learn them, which does not require one to later maintain the same intelligence level to continue to utilize those skills, unless the intelligence drop was so drastic that they really could not understand the simplest of concepts behind what they had already learned
Esponer 11-05-06, 07:48 PM	Assassin's Stance, whether learnt from martial adept class levels or the Martial Stance feat, can be used to qualify for Arcane Trickster, by the rules as written. Particularly in the case of a character who wishes to take the Martial Stance feat, is not otherwise a martial adept and will be using Assassin's Stance at all times, this seems fair. According to, I believe, Complete Warrior, if you lose the prerequisites for a prestige class then you lose the class features. The most sensible interpretation of this (in my mind) is that you retain base attack bonus, skills, saving throws, spellcasting progression and otherwise open bonus feat slots, but lose class features — your sneak attack becomes inferior as an unqualified Arcane Trickster, and you lose ranged legerdemain and impromptu sneak attack. The rules as written are a little quiet on spellcasting progression: is this lost when you lose the prerequisites or not? It might appear that the answer is yes, but as mentioned earlier in this thread this is a lot of bookkeeping and more importantly to me, doesn't seem sensible.
Quandi 11-05-06, 09:40 PM	This is an interesting question, i dont know fully how these pseudo abilities apply to requirements and such and in the end comes down to the DMs opinion. Personally id say yes, keep in mind it wouldnt allow the char to get in clases that need +3d6 SA and so on, also you could rule that to get the rest of the SA gained from the Assassin PrC the char would have to stay in the stance, if they chaged theyd forfit it all. Really though in the end its up to the DM
FloppyLlama 11-05-06, 10:06 PM	I would rule they don't need to keep the stance up, but if they ever get rid of the stance (can you overwrite known stances as you advance? or is that just maneuvers) they'd lose the benefits of the prestige class. The requirements represent the necessary training/capabilities of the character to enter, and the stance represents training/capabilities of the character. A rogue/wizard qualifies even if that character never once chooses to sneak attack. They have the ability and training to do so, as does the person who knows the Assassin's Stance.
Nachtwind 11-06-06, 04:18 AM	well since you get SA as a arcane trickster it would get kind of a "was the egg or the chicken first" question if you loose the stance...