Assassin Redeemed [Archive] - Wizards Community

Assassin Redeemed [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Stule
05-14-06, 02:06 AM Hey guys!

I have a player that wants to make a character that is a Rogue/Assassin that turns to the light.

I like his concept but have a question.

Once he becomes Good, which abilities would he lose in the Assassin PrC or would the penalty be he could not gain anymore Assassin levels?

Any feedback is appreciated.

Thanks.
radicaledward
05-14-06, 02:16 AM Technically, nothing. I would however take away the 'death attack' ability because it is pretty evil in and of itself. Either that, or they can only paralize with the attack.
Vaalingrade Ashland
05-14-06, 02:35 AM Technically, nothing. I would however take away the 'death attack' ability because it is pretty evil in and of itself. Either that, or they can only paralize with the attack.
More evil than stabbing someone to death over a couple minutes as opposed to a quick, clean death?
nihility
05-14-06, 02:39 AM Technically, nothing. I would however take away the 'death attack' ability because it is pretty evil in and of itself. Either that, or they can only paralize with the attack.Killing isn't evil. Killing simply for money, that's the evil bit.
Witch
05-14-06, 04:34 AM Remove the evil spells in his spelllist and replace them with the appropriate good spells. That should do.
Ghostwheel
05-14-06, 05:41 AM I could not quote it if I had the book beside me (this is not in the SRD), but if you no longer qualify for a class, you can no longer use the special abilities of that class. If you are not evil, the special abilities of a class that requires you to be evil are gone.
Verelor
05-14-06, 10:13 AM More evil than stabbing someone to death over a couple minutes as opposed to a quick, clean death?

Yes. Because it is premeditated murder and it's for money.

Killing is never free of sin, but because this is D&D and combat is such a large part of the fun, I'll settle.
Watchdog_of_Hades
05-14-06, 10:23 AM I can see no reason why your abilities, which represent training and not a pact with some evil power or something, would disappear when you change why you use them. The poison use is your skill at applying the poison without getting cut, sneak attack is just like a rogue's (which isn't evil), hide in plain sight... Well, shadowdancers get it and they don't have to be evil so an assassin shouldn't either. The uncanny dodges and evasion belong to any number of other, nonevil classes, and the save against poison comes from a sort of inoculation. The only thing left is death attack. Slayer of Domiel has death touch (the same thing, about), and they have to be good. Darkwood stalker or whatever from the Complete Warrior has death attack, who cares if it only works on orcs, and they aren't evil. I'm tempted to say an assassin's death attack isn't evil either.
Witch
05-14-06, 10:57 AM I could not quote it if I had the book beside me (this is not in the SRD), but if you no longer qualify for a class, you can no longer use the special abilities of that class. If you are not evil, the special abilities of a class that requires you to be evil are gone.
It's not in the core rules at all. And I heavily disagree with it because of the loopholes, and common sense.

As for a Death Attack: It's just as evil as Power Word Kill, which conveniently lacksthe evil descriptor.
But good characters would use the killing version sparingly.
Vaalingrade Ashland
05-14-06, 11:14 AM Yes. Because it is premeditated murder and it's for money.
Wait, I get money whenever I use Death Attack?
Watchdog_of_Hades
05-14-06, 01:16 PM We're talking about an assassin that no longer kills for money and should he lose his abilities. It's not like whenever you use death attack, gold pieces start popping out of thin air. It is like Power Word, Kill or Phantasmal Killer or Finger of Death, none of which are evil, all of which are save-or-die, and all of which you could use to kill someone in exchange for money.
nihility
05-14-06, 01:35 PM Killing is never free of sin, but because this is D&D and combat is such a large part of the fun, I'll settle.Incorrect. The BoED states quite clearly that "violence is a part of the D&D world, and not inherently evil in the context of that world." It goes on to say that "a paladin smiting a blackguard or a blue dragon is not committing an evil act; the cause of good expects and often demands that violence be brought to bear against its enemies." Both are from page 11.

So, yes, killing in D&D is not only often free of sin, there is no inherent sin attached in the first place. Depending on the context, it may well be a purely good act.
Luske
05-14-06, 04:12 PM I dont have dungeon masters guide next to me but pretty sure it says somewhere that ex-assassins loses their abilities.

As for the statement "I can see no reason why your abilities, which represent training and not a pact with some evil power or something, would disappear when you change why you use them" With this you open up for pendora's box.
Vaalingrade Ashland
05-14-06, 04:21 PM There is no Ex-Assassin entry.

And the fact is that the only evil part of the class is the organization of enept bunglers you have to join to get it.
Witch
05-14-06, 04:25 PM As for the statement "I can see no reason why your abilities, which represent training and not a pact with some evil power or something, would disappear when you change why you use them" With this you open up for pandora's box.
Do I?
How?
Care to explain?
If anyone manages to abuse that, as far as I knew, there was still a DM in the game.
Shedeo
05-14-06, 04:40 PM While I agree with everything said about not losing the abilities, I seem to recall reading the same passage in the DMG or PHB somewhere. That if you no longer qualify, you lose the abilities.

Even if it is true, common sense dictates that its retarded.

Thusly, I pretty much removed the whole evil requirement to the Assassin and shrugged. If that's too much there's various other ways to get around it. In one game, I decided that Death Attack would be available to Rogues as a special ability. Then there's the feat that I came up with, named by someone else because I was lazy.

Karma [General]
Through your journies and experiences with certain specialists, you have discvoered that though you morally conflict with them, you share similar abilities, or simply wish to use their own powers against them.
Prerequisites: Must have had contact with a member of the selected prestige class that qualified for the class normally.
Benefit: Select one prestige class that you do not meet the alignment requirement for. You may ignore the alignment requirement for that prestige class only.
Normal: You must meet the alignment prerequisite in order to take levels in a prestige class.

Now, if this feat were to be used, it would need to have some regulation by the DM so that we dont have any LG Paladin/Blackguards running around. Also, other stuff, like the "Kill for $$" requisite for the Assassin, could still be neccessary or ignored, as discretion to the DM. Though, not having to be evil to get into the assassin PrC, but still having to commit an evil act to do so is kind of lame, so I call that it wavers stuff like that as well.

Those were my three fixes, so I'm different. I tossed in my three cents instead of two. :P
Grunj
05-14-06, 04:48 PM The Dark Hunter PrC (Complete Warrior) also gets Death Attack as a special ability. There are no alignment requirements for the class.

I agree that no abilities should be lost, as no abilities are granted by supernatural powers.

I also believe that an Assassin's Guild can be more than a Murder, Inc. enterprise. It could also represent a hidden resistance movement or even a law enforcement agency that believes in capturing or killing lawbreakers without starting fights in the town square and getting all the innocent bystanders fireballed.

The alignment requirement represents the organization, not the class itself.
Arcanum_and_Obscura
05-14-06, 05:00 PM They keep all their abilities, they just can't advance in assassin anymore as they're no longer evil.

As far as I know, its not the abiilities of the assassin that makes them evil, its the flavor text associated with the prestige class. Sorta like how bards and monks are restricted in their alignment choices?
Luske
05-14-06, 05:28 PM Witch with your statement you let players use special abilities of classes they no longer qualify for. Combine that with the new retrain in PHB2 and you will have something you dont want im sure.

To Stule i would say "Your player can be redeemed but he loses all the special abilities of the assassin class"
Vaalingrade Ashland
05-14-06, 06:33 PM Combine that with the new retrain in PHB2 and you will have something you dont want im sure.
An optional ability in a non-croe book.

I'm sure witch is shaking in his boots.
marek_du_grazzt
05-14-06, 11:45 PM Personally, I believe that a pretty credible argument can be made for a chaotic good assassin, so I might not be a good RAW lawyer here. Ultimately, the class calls for evil alignment, and I would envision that being a reflection of "because those with these skills are almost invariably evil and won't teach a do-gooder". No reason at all, though, that you can't do with the training what you will once you're got it. And all that is based on adhering to the (in my opinion) unreasonable alignment requirement in the first place.

Consider a LE society. Our "hero" in question has been a fighter/rogue for some time, "fighting the powers that be". He's helped to liberate the oppressed, challenge the tyrants, yadda yadda. Eventually he encounters another freedom-fighter type that teaches him to really hit where it hurts - by going after the tyrannical leaders that are crushing the good people under their heels. His mentor teaches him that the only effective means of getting to those leaders is by stealth and guile, and begins teaching the ways of the assassin.

Oooops. I mean, not assassin because those are bad guys. Maybe the ways of the benevolently-motivated-stealth-warrior-liberators? Naaw, that sounds too wordy...

Change your alignment and fight the good fight, ex-assassin!
Witch
05-15-06, 02:19 AM An optional ability in a non-croe book.

I'm sure witch is shaking in his boots.
An optional rule, which I don't intend to use indeed.
And secondly, I'm still going to use common sense.
Archangel62
05-15-06, 02:47 AM Wait, I get money whenever I use Death Attack?

Well yes, the problem is that most of it is taken away in taxes before you get it. As you know you can never avoid death or taxes. When you use Death Attack the DM uses the Tax attack.
Arcanum_and_Obscura
05-15-06, 02:56 AM Its no different than ex-bards/monks/barbarians retraining in any case.
CrimsonDeath
05-15-06, 03:04 AM I'd like to point out that the Bard and Monk both retain all class abilities if they no longer meet their classes' alignment requirements. I know that those are base classes and the Assassin is a PrC, but they are examples of classes in which the training remains even after the philosophy is no longer upheld.
periscope
05-15-06, 03:10 AM Maybe trade in levels of assasin for levels of slayer of domiel?
Witch
05-15-06, 03:12 AM Maybe trade in levels of assasin for levels of slayer of domiel?
No, no, no.

That would
a) Not make sense at all
b) Not allow any non-exalted character to retain abilities

Just let the assassin get other spells, and let him keep the rest.
Kothardarastrix
05-15-06, 03:24 AM BoED, while probably one of the more broken sourcebooks, has a PrC called Slayer of Domiel. The idea of it is they are (lawful) good assassins, who (I would assume) assassinate the heads of evil religious orders purely in the name good (Which means no money), and instead of poison use magic. Of course, Exalted characters can't use poisons (Good Characters may, but Exalted Characters are held to higher standards) so instead they can alternatively use Ravages which work only on evil creatures, it deals the listed damage plus an extra amount of damage based on charisma (I'd say it acts on karma for this reason), deals more damage against undead and even more against Evil Outsiders and Evil Clerics.
Reversefigure4
05-15-06, 04:40 AM The only one single thing I would change is the Magic Circle against Good spell to a circle against evil.

Everything else - well, a repentant assassin isn't going to forget how to Death Attack. And I don't see why he couldn't keep advancing in assassin levels. If you keep up the same sort of training regiment and get the same sort of experiences (hiding in shadows, striking unseen, etc), why shouldn't you get better at it as time passes?
Kothardarastrix
05-15-06, 07:14 AM That same reasoning would allow a non-lawful ex-samurai to continue on the samurai path, logical, but RAW and fluff say no.

Now, if you don't want to get an unnecessary sourcebook I can understand. So, what is this characters reasoning for wanting to play a redeemed Assassin, is to play an actual redeemed Assassin or to avoid being Evil? Is there a Paladin in the group, if not and he just wants to play an Assassin allow him, allow him to be the antihero, a character who fights for good ends through evil means. The only time an evil character is a bad thing is when a Paladin is present, or when the parties goals mesh with his own (Which if you make clear his role as an antihero to him, shouldn't); note that I only suggest this if your player is a very good roleplayer.
Arindor
05-15-06, 08:44 AM I would say let him keep them because he will need them against all the assasins you will send against him. He just left a secret society based on killing people. What do you think they will do? They are going to send progressively tougher and tougher assasins after him.

The PRC was created with an ideal in mind and really you shouldn't try to get by that with backstory. Now the idea of playing an evil character redeemed is a good one rich in roleplaying potential (he is roleplaying it right not just saying this happened in the past?) but if he is just saying "oh look at these abilities! I want them for my good character." then this shouldn't be rewarded.

In my campaign the person an assasin has to kill to become part of the guild is usually a family member if not all immediate family, or spouse, or children. The guild wants ruthless cold hearted professionals with no ties. Now after this if they can convince me that they want to be redeemed I would let them role play it but the guild is not going to be happy.

Now if they could fake there own death ....
ghost_warlock
05-15-06, 09:06 AM *uses Death Attack against himself*
*Makes the save* :weep:
Harmony
05-15-06, 09:59 AM Why not simply assume he was a rogue (with various multiclases if so suits!) who simply worked as assassin rather than someone with the Assassin prestige class? ;p
Solves a lot of problems!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Stule 05-14-06, 02:06 AM	Hey guys! I have a player that wants to make a character that is a Rogue/Assassin that turns to the light. I like his concept but have a question. Once he becomes Good, which abilities would he lose in the Assassin PrC or would the penalty be he could not gain anymore Assassin levels? Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks.
radicaledward 05-14-06, 02:16 AM	Technically, nothing. I would however take away the 'death attack' ability because it is pretty evil in and of itself. Either that, or they can only paralize with the attack.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-14-06, 02:35 AM	Technically, nothing. I would however take away the 'death attack' ability because it is pretty evil in and of itself. Either that, or they can only paralize with the attack. More evil than stabbing someone to death over a couple minutes as opposed to a quick, clean death?
nihility 05-14-06, 02:39 AM	Technically, nothing. I would however take away the 'death attack' ability because it is pretty evil in and of itself. Either that, or they can only paralize with the attack.Killing isn't evil. Killing simply for money, that's the evil bit.
Witch 05-14-06, 04:34 AM	Remove the evil spells in his spelllist and replace them with the appropriate good spells. That should do.
Ghostwheel 05-14-06, 05:41 AM	I could not quote it if I had the book beside me (this is not in the SRD), but if you no longer qualify for a class, you can no longer use the special abilities of that class. If you are not evil, the special abilities of a class that requires you to be evil are gone.
Verelor 05-14-06, 10:13 AM	More evil than stabbing someone to death over a couple minutes as opposed to a quick, clean death? Yes. Because it is premeditated murder and it's for money. Killing is never free of sin, but because this is D&D and combat is such a large part of the fun, I'll settle.
Watchdog_of_Hades 05-14-06, 10:23 AM	I can see no reason why your abilities, which represent training and not a pact with some evil power or something, would disappear when you change why you use them. The poison use is your skill at applying the poison without getting cut, sneak attack is just like a rogue's (which isn't evil), hide in plain sight... Well, shadowdancers get it and they don't have to be evil so an assassin shouldn't either. The uncanny dodges and evasion belong to any number of other, nonevil classes, and the save against poison comes from a sort of inoculation. The only thing left is death attack. Slayer of Domiel has death touch (the same thing, about), and they have to be good. Darkwood stalker or whatever from the Complete Warrior has death attack, who cares if it only works on orcs, and they aren't evil. I'm tempted to say an assassin's death attack isn't evil either.
Witch 05-14-06, 10:57 AM	I could not quote it if I had the book beside me (this is not in the SRD), but if you no longer qualify for a class, you can no longer use the special abilities of that class. If you are not evil, the special abilities of a class that requires you to be evil are gone. It's not in the core rules at all. And I heavily disagree with it because of the loopholes, and common sense. As for a Death Attack: It's just as evil as Power Word Kill, which conveniently lacksthe evil descriptor. But good characters would use the killing version sparingly.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-14-06, 11:14 AM	Yes. Because it is premeditated murder and it's for money. Wait, I get money whenever I use Death Attack?
Watchdog_of_Hades 05-14-06, 01:16 PM	We're talking about an assassin that no longer kills for money and should he lose his abilities. It's not like whenever you use death attack, gold pieces start popping out of thin air. It is like Power Word, Kill or Phantasmal Killer or Finger of Death, none of which are evil, all of which are save-or-die, and all of which you could use to kill someone in exchange for money.
nihility 05-14-06, 01:35 PM	Killing is never free of sin, but because this is D&D and combat is such a large part of the fun, I'll settle.Incorrect. The BoED states quite clearly that "violence is a part of the D&D world, and not inherently evil in the context of that world." It goes on to say that "a paladin smiting a blackguard or a blue dragon is not committing an evil act; the cause of good expects and often demands that violence be brought to bear against its enemies." Both are from page 11. So, yes, killing in D&D is not only often free of sin, there is no inherent sin attached in the first place. Depending on the context, it may well be a purely good act.
Luske 05-14-06, 04:12 PM	I dont have dungeon masters guide next to me but pretty sure it says somewhere that ex-assassins loses their abilities. As for the statement "I can see no reason why your abilities, which represent training and not a pact with some evil power or something, would disappear when you change why you use them" With this you open up for pendora's box.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-14-06, 04:21 PM	There is no Ex-Assassin entry. And the fact is that the only evil part of the class is the organization of enept bunglers you have to join to get it.
Witch 05-14-06, 04:25 PM	As for the statement "I can see no reason why your abilities, which represent training and not a pact with some evil power or something, would disappear when you change why you use them" With this you open up for pandora's box. Do I? How? Care to explain? If anyone manages to abuse that, as far as I knew, there was still a DM in the game.
Shedeo 05-14-06, 04:40 PM	While I agree with everything said about not losing the abilities, I seem to recall reading the same passage in the DMG or PHB somewhere. That if you no longer qualify, you lose the abilities. Even if it is true, common sense dictates that its retarded. Thusly, I pretty much removed the whole evil requirement to the Assassin and shrugged. If that's too much there's various other ways to get around it. In one game, I decided that Death Attack would be available to Rogues as a special ability. Then there's the feat that I came up with, named by someone else because I was lazy. Karma [General] Through your journies and experiences with certain specialists, you have discvoered that though you morally conflict with them, you share similar abilities, or simply wish to use their own powers against them. Prerequisites: Must have had contact with a member of the selected prestige class that qualified for the class normally. Benefit: Select one prestige class that you do not meet the alignment requirement for. You may ignore the alignment requirement for that prestige class only. Normal: You must meet the alignment prerequisite in order to take levels in a prestige class. Now, if this feat were to be used, it would need to have some regulation by the DM so that we dont have any LG Paladin/Blackguards running around. Also, other stuff, like the "Kill for $$" requisite for the Assassin, could still be neccessary or ignored, as discretion to the DM. Though, not having to be evil to get into the assassin PrC, but still having to commit an evil act to do so is kind of lame, so I call that it wavers stuff like that as well. Those were my three fixes, so I'm different. I tossed in my three cents instead of two. :P
Grunj 05-14-06, 04:48 PM	The Dark Hunter PrC (Complete Warrior) also gets Death Attack as a special ability. There are no alignment requirements for the class. I agree that no abilities should be lost, as no abilities are granted by supernatural powers. I also believe that an Assassin's Guild can be more than a Murder, Inc. enterprise. It could also represent a hidden resistance movement or even a law enforcement agency that believes in capturing or killing lawbreakers without starting fights in the town square and getting all the innocent bystanders fireballed. The alignment requirement represents the organization, not the class itself.
Arcanum_and_Obscura 05-14-06, 05:00 PM	They keep all their abilities, they just can't advance in assassin anymore as they're no longer evil. As far as I know, its not the abiilities of the assassin that makes them evil, its the flavor text associated with the prestige class. Sorta like how bards and monks are restricted in their alignment choices?
Luske 05-14-06, 05:28 PM	Witch with your statement you let players use special abilities of classes they no longer qualify for. Combine that with the new retrain in PHB2 and you will have something you dont want im sure. To Stule i would say "Your player can be redeemed but he loses all the special abilities of the assassin class"
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-14-06, 06:33 PM	Combine that with the new retrain in PHB2 and you will have something you dont want im sure. An optional ability in a non-croe book. I'm sure witch is shaking in his boots.
marek_du_grazzt 05-14-06, 11:45 PM	Personally, I believe that a pretty credible argument can be made for a chaotic good assassin, so I might not be a good RAW lawyer here. Ultimately, the class calls for evil alignment, and I would envision that being a reflection of "because those with these skills are almost invariably evil and won't teach a do-gooder". No reason at all, though, that you can't do with the training what you will once you're got it. And all that is based on adhering to the (in my opinion) unreasonable alignment requirement in the first place. Consider a LE society. Our "hero" in question has been a fighter/rogue for some time, "fighting the powers that be". He's helped to liberate the oppressed, challenge the tyrants, yadda yadda. Eventually he encounters another freedom-fighter type that teaches him to really hit where it hurts - by going after the tyrannical leaders that are crushing the good people under their heels. His mentor teaches him that the only effective means of getting to those leaders is by stealth and guile, and begins teaching the ways of the assassin. Oooops. I mean, not assassin because those are bad guys. Maybe the ways of the benevolently-motivated-stealth-warrior-liberators? Naaw, that sounds too wordy... Change your alignment and fight the good fight, ex-assassin!
Witch 05-15-06, 02:19 AM	An optional ability in a non-croe book. I'm sure witch is shaking in his boots. An optional rule, which I don't intend to use indeed. And secondly, I'm still going to use common sense.
Archangel62 05-15-06, 02:47 AM	Wait, I get money whenever I use Death Attack? Well yes, the problem is that most of it is taken away in taxes before you get it. As you know you can never avoid death or taxes. When you use Death Attack the DM uses the Tax attack.
Arcanum_and_Obscura 05-15-06, 02:56 AM	Its no different than ex-bards/monks/barbarians retraining in any case.
CrimsonDeath 05-15-06, 03:04 AM	I'd like to point out that the Bard and Monk both retain all class abilities if they no longer meet their classes' alignment requirements. I know that those are base classes and the Assassin is a PrC, but they are examples of classes in which the training remains even after the philosophy is no longer upheld.
periscope 05-15-06, 03:10 AM	Maybe trade in levels of assasin for levels of slayer of domiel?
Witch 05-15-06, 03:12 AM	Maybe trade in levels of assasin for levels of slayer of domiel? No, no, no. That would a) Not make sense at all b) Not allow any non-exalted character to retain abilities Just let the assassin get other spells, and let him keep the rest.
Kothardarastrix 05-15-06, 03:24 AM	BoED, while probably one of the more broken sourcebooks, has a PrC called Slayer of Domiel. The idea of it is they are (lawful) good assassins, who (I would assume) assassinate the heads of evil religious orders purely in the name good (Which means no money), and instead of poison use magic. Of course, Exalted characters can't use poisons (Good Characters may, but Exalted Characters are held to higher standards) so instead they can alternatively use Ravages which work only on evil creatures, it deals the listed damage plus an extra amount of damage based on charisma (I'd say it acts on karma for this reason), deals more damage against undead and even more against Evil Outsiders and Evil Clerics.
Reversefigure4 05-15-06, 04:40 AM	The only one single thing I would change is the Magic Circle against Good spell to a circle against evil. Everything else - well, a repentant assassin isn't going to forget how to Death Attack. And I don't see why he couldn't keep advancing in assassin levels. If you keep up the same sort of training regiment and get the same sort of experiences (hiding in shadows, striking unseen, etc), why shouldn't you get better at it as time passes?
Kothardarastrix 05-15-06, 07:14 AM	That same reasoning would allow a non-lawful ex-samurai to continue on the samurai path, logical, but RAW and fluff say no. Now, if you don't want to get an unnecessary sourcebook I can understand. So, what is this characters reasoning for wanting to play a redeemed Assassin, is to play an actual redeemed Assassin or to avoid being Evil? Is there a Paladin in the group, if not and he just wants to play an Assassin allow him, allow him to be the antihero, a character who fights for good ends through evil means. The only time an evil character is a bad thing is when a Paladin is present, or when the parties goals mesh with his own (Which if you make clear his role as an antihero to him, shouldn't); note that I only suggest this if your player is a very good roleplayer.
Arindor 05-15-06, 08:44 AM	I would say let him keep them because he will need them against all the assasins you will send against him. He just left a secret society based on killing people. What do you think they will do? They are going to send progressively tougher and tougher assasins after him. The PRC was created with an ideal in mind and really you shouldn't try to get by that with backstory. Now the idea of playing an evil character redeemed is a good one rich in roleplaying potential (he is roleplaying it right not just saying this happened in the past?) but if he is just saying "oh look at these abilities! I want them for my good character." then this shouldn't be rewarded. In my campaign the person an assasin has to kill to become part of the guild is usually a family member if not all immediate family, or spouse, or children. The guild wants ruthless cold hearted professionals with no ties. Now after this if they can convince me that they want to be redeemed I would let them role play it but the guild is not going to be happy. Now if they could fake there own death ....
ghost_warlock 05-15-06, 09:06 AM	uses Death Attack against himself Makes the save :weep:
Harmony 05-15-06, 09:59 AM	Why not simply assume he was a rogue (with various multiclases if so suits!) who simply worked as assassin rather than someone with the Assassin prestige class? ;p Solves a lot of problems!