Assassin without magic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Assassin without magic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RobbyPants
10-27-06, 03:13 PM I've often thought about modifying the Assassin PrC in my game to not use magic. Does anyone know of a PrC or modification that does this (official or homebrew)?

I've thought of how to do it, but I still haven't decided on anything yet... I was thinking about adding some of the following abitilties (in place of their removed spells):

Take 10 on Hide and Move Silently
Poison weapons as a move action.
Poison weapons as a free action.
Fast Climb: able to climb at double the normal rate.
Improved Evasion.
Ranged Death Attack (up to 30 feet, follows all other death attack restrictions).
Greater Death Attack (works like Death Attack, but oncer per day, the assassin can declare a coup de grace (with the usual Fort save)).

I still have to put some thought into this. Oppinions? Suggestions? Thanks :D
Prime32
10-27-06, 06:01 PM Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=725037) is a variant assassin class I made based on Fire Emblem. There are links to others in the thread.
RobbyPants
10-30-06, 09:19 AM Any other ideas? :lightbulb
Seldriss
10-30-06, 09:26 AM Check out Legends & Lairs/City Works, where you'll find an Assassin class.
Not a prestige class, a base class.
No spells, just the essential : Sneak attack & assassination :D
Ryu Katsuragi
10-30-06, 09:33 AM Greater Death Attack (works like Death Attack, but oncer per day, the assassin can declare a coup de grace (with the usual Fort save)).

I'm wondering, by this, do you mean the Assassin just says 'this attack is a coup de grace' and hits them with it? I'm not sure I like the thought of that - What's to stop someone picking up a scythe, Power Attacking all their BAB away, then saying 'I coup de grace him'?

I'd suggest something like Impromptu Sneak Attack, like the Arcane Trickster. Certain amount of times, one attack you make, before you roll, you declare to be a sneak attack. Nothing more.
Rowan_Whispercloak
10-30-06, 09:38 AM Using the variant for Rangers and Paladins as an example you could do this:

At 2nd level give the assassin Disguise Self (Sp): an assassin can use disguise spell as a spell-like abilty as a caster equal to his assassin level.

at 4th give them the a supernatural ability to add +4 to Dex, Int, or Cha 1/day that last 1 minute/class level

at 6th Nondetection 1/day spell-like ability caster level = class level

at 8th Freedom of Movement 1/day spell-like ability caster level = class level.

Or perhaps give the assassin bonus feats at 2nd, 4th, 6th and 8th that are taken from a list similiar to the scouts minus the obvious nature based one
RobbyPants
10-30-06, 10:05 AM I'm wondering, by this, do you mean the Assassin just says 'this attack is a coup de grace' and hits them with it?
What I meant was that you'd still have to hit normally, and it would still have to meet all the requirements for a death attack. To weaken it, I'd make the assassin declare the attempt before the attack roll is even rolled (possibly wasting the attempt). Thus, they could make the death attack a bit more potent by increasing the damage and forcing the Fort save for a CDG, which would be higher than the DC for the death attack. I'd probably change the attack to a CDG rather than adding it to the death attack (that way they don't have to save twice ;)). Sorry... should have explained better the first time.

I'd suggest something like Impromptu Sneak Attack, like the Arcane Trickster. Certain amount of times, one attack you make, before you roll, you declare to be a sneak attack. Nothing more.
This isn't a bad idea. It makes them a little more viable in combat where stealth isn't such a factor.
RobbyPants
10-31-06, 09:48 AM Greater Death Attack (Ex):
You may make a greater death attack once per day. You must declare the attempt before rolling the attack roll on a standard death attack. If the attack hits, it automatically performs a coup de grace (with sneak attack damage). The defender is allowed a Fort save with the useual DC against the coup de grace. This effect does not stack with the standard death attack effect. If the attempt fails, it is lost for the day.
How does this seem for a 10th level capstone for a no-magic assassin? Too weak? Too powerful?

The idea is that it will only be used once per day, and it still has the typical 3 round "charge up". It will only work on opponents that can be effected by a crit. It seems that frequently, the standard death attack DC is a bit low for many things an assassin would face. This is a way to up the DC on a single opponent, to make the assassin more deadly.
Ryu Katsuragi
10-31-06, 10:13 AM Greater Death Attack (Ex):
You may make a greater death attack once per day. You must declare the attempt before rolling the attack roll on a standard death attack. If the attack hits, it automatically performs a coup de grace (with sneak attack damage). The defender is allowed a Fort save with the useual DC against the coup de grace. This effect does not stack with the standard death attack effect. If the attempt fails, it is lost for the day.
How does this seem for a 10th level capstone for a no-magic assassin? Too weak? Too powerful?

The idea is that it will only be used once per day, and it still has the typical 3 round "charge up". It will only work on opponents that can be effected by a crit. It seems that frequently, the standard death attack DC is a bit low for many things an assassin would face. This is a way to up the DC on a single opponent, to make the assassin more deadly.

It's better. I'm personally a little torn though, as I'm a rather cynical reviewer of things...

My only problem is as it's an automatic critical, that means the only thing you'd see is Assassins with +5 flaming burst, acidic burst scythes. By doing so, giving people in the region of 70-110 Fortitude save to resist death... No-one would ever use death attack anymore, because compared to that, this ability is god. And how many marks would a Assassin have in a day? Very easy for this to be a one-hit-wonder for most BBEG's.
RobbyPants
10-31-06, 10:28 AM It's better. I'm personally a little torn though, as I'm a rather cynical reviewer of things...

My only problem is as it's an automatic critical, that means the only thing you'd see is Assassins with +5 flaming burst, acidic burst scythes. By doing so, giving people in the region of 70-110 Fortitude save to resist death... No-one would ever use death attack anymore, because compared to that, this ability is god. And how many marks would a Assassin have in a day? Very easy for this to be a one-hit-wonder for most BBEG's.
Good point. That's why I ask you cynical (realistic) people these things ;).

You have any suggestions? Perhaps a save DC increase on the death attack once per day (+4 maybe)? Also, what did you think about adding a 30 foot range to the death attack at 6th level? Is that too much?
Ryu Katsuragi
10-31-06, 10:34 AM I'm not good at class design, but maybe an un-named bonus to Death Attack? Like Improved, Supreme, Greater, resulting in +6, or some such?

Only thing I'm aiming at is trying to keep Death Attack as the main feature, you know? It's already a pretty bad ability, but it's the Assassin's 'thing'. By losing Death Attack to something else, he's pretty much losing his classe's identity.

And I don't see the problem with the 30ft range, considering that there are classes and a feat which boosts the sneak attack range to 60ft. Better than one of the classes I saw which gave sneak attack at -any- range!
RobbyPants
10-31-06, 10:42 AM Here's an idea I had for an Improved Death Attack:
The same rules apply as for a normal death attack, but if the opponent makes his save, he takes an additional +2d6 sneak attack damage.
This keeps the same flavor of the death attack, doesn't change the save DC, but makes the secondary effect more potent. So even if you're up against a foe with a very high Fort save, you can take 3 rounds to study him, and make a more potent sneak attack.

I'm not sure what level I'd grant this. Perhaps it would scale...
+1d6 @ level 4
+2d6 @ level 7
+3d6 @ level 10
I still have to balance it out a bit, but I think that's a better way to boost the death attack without making it too broken. :D
Ryu Katsuragi
10-31-06, 10:45 AM Actually, I quite like that. ^^ Just tack on some cool name (I can't stand just 'Improved' and such in classes), so something like 'Strike of the Murderer', 'Wraith of the Killer', 'Heartless Backstab', or the like. ^^
RobbyPants
10-31-06, 10:50 AM Actually, I quite like that. ^^ Just tack on some cool name (I can't stand just 'Improved' and such in classes), so something like 'Strike of the Murderer', 'Wraith of the Killer', 'Heartless Backstab', or the like. ^^
Cool! :cool: It's settled then!

BTW, thanks for all your help. :D I've been thinking of different ways to do this for a while. Whenever I get around to actually writing this guy up, I'll post him.
DarknessEternal
10-31-06, 10:51 AM You're in luck! WotC already made a non-magic using assassin. It's even a base class and in the PHB.

It's called Rogue. At least it might be if you think you need stealth to be an assassin.

Otherwise, it's called any possible class or combination of classes you take so long as your PC kills people for money.
Ryu Katsuragi
10-31-06, 11:01 AM But we all know that's never enough for people. Look at the arguement where people argued the 'RP aspects' of playing a Frenzied Berzerker insted of a Barbarian with 'anger management problems'.
RobbyPants
10-31-06, 11:09 AM I like rogues a lot. They certainly are arguably the best entry class into the standard Assassin PrC.

The whole point of this thread wasn't to scrap the PrC, but to make a variation without the magic. What I particularly want was the Death Attack ability.

I suppose I could go straight rogue if death attack were added to the list of special abilities the rogue can pick starting at level 10.
Ryu Katsuragi
10-31-06, 11:47 AM I fail to see why you'd need it, honestly. Straight Rogue > Assassin. Rogue20 is more likely to kill something than Rogue10/Assassin10. Sad fact of life is, the Assassin class reeks of fail.
RobbyPants
10-31-06, 11:51 AM I fail to see why you'd need it, honestly. Straight Rogue > Assassin. Rogue20 is more likely to kill something than Rogue10/Assassin10. Sad fact of life is, the Assassin class reeks of fail.
You have a point.

Part of it is flavor, part of it is the safe poison use. With the varient I'm suggesting, I think it would make it a more viable choice. The problem with the assassin PrC is that an effective assassin needs to be patient. Waiting 3 rounds in combat just isn't going to cut it. This PrC is much nicer for scouting missions, and other encounters where the victim doesn't know you're there (or preceive you as an enemy). It's a good class, but it can't be fairly compared to someone that goes toe to toe with the enemy.
Ryu Katsuragi
10-31-06, 11:57 AM Problem is, why wait? I mean, if you're that close to an enemy, you wouldn't need to Death Attack. Quick Draw your two weapons as a free action, one stab with sneak attack surprise round. With your good initiative, beat them, dual attack them and they'll probably fall.

The main problem I have with the class is the whole Death Attack. I love the thought of it... but it doesn't work. Anything which has a chance to fail against it (like a Wizard) usually has things in place to avoid it. At higher levels, the high Fort Fighters will probably have Fortification anyway to get rid of pesky Rogues. Quite a few high level monsters (such as dragons) you won't have a chance beating them with it, and the rest are usually so weird you don't know their anatomy.

Poison Use is great - but by the time you get to this class, poisons are so bad they're not worth it.

And I'm not comparing it with something which goes toe-to-toe with the enemy. Rogues share the same low hit die, and light armour as the Assassin. Only time a Rogue should -ever- be toe-to-toe is if they can tumble into a flanking position with TWF. My level 8 Swashbuckler/Fighter/Rogue has learnt better than trying to tank in place of our incompetant tanks.
SeattleLightning
10-31-06, 12:05 PM For what its worth I tend to agree with Ryu. I'm very much in favor of using as few classes as reasonably possible and learning to adapt your character concepts to them.
RobbyPants
10-31-06, 12:28 PM And I'm not comparing it with something which goes toe-to-toe with the enemy. Rogues share the same low hit die, and light armour as the Assassin. Only time a Rogue should -ever- be toe-to-toe is if they can tumble into a flanking position with TWF. My level 8 Swashbuckler/Fighter/Rogue has learnt better than trying to tank in place of our incompetant tanks.
What an assassin gets is flexability. He still has the same sneak attack and BAB of a rogue of similar level. He can still do the same things as a rogue in combat. What he gets in addition is the ability to perform a death attack (which is, arguably, a very situational advantage). I don't think a rogue is really sacrificing too much to dip into the assassin class. You just have to remember that Death Attack is not the be all and end all of an assassin; it's just another one of his tools.
Ryu Katsuragi
10-31-06, 12:46 PM Just looking now...

Poison Use: Barely used after sixth level, in my experience.

Death Attack: Situational, and even then, a terrible ability.

Spells: Somewhat useful, but most, like Death Attack will be easily resisted later.

Save vs. Poison: Too weak as they are, so this is weak.

Uncanny Dodge: Very nice.

Hide in Plain Sight: Equally nice.

Compared to what a Rogue could have:

Uncanny Dodge: Same

Improved Evasion: Extremely good.

Crippling Strike: Strength damage of 2 on -any- sneak attack? Far better than almost all the abilities the Assassin gets.

Opportunist: Ehh... I don't like it too much, but a free attack is a free attack.

Skill Mastery: Alright, I suppose. I generally never take 10 under stress, anyways.

Slippery Mind: Love this ability.

Defensive Roll: Very poor, in my mind.

Or three free feats insted of the above.

I personally feel you lose alot. I know what people say about flavour and all, but that's it: Assassin isn't taken for it's nifty abilities. Sad fact is (now I'm going to sound elitist), people now can't 'feel' their character is something unless it's a class... I got insulted once on a site because I called me Elf Fighter/Swashbuckler an assassin, because I couldn't pick locks, 'because I'm supposed to be able to and lied about my class'. o.o
Prime32
10-31-06, 12:57 PM Waiting 3 rounds in combat just isn't going to cut it.

Dragon magazine's "Sage Advice" recently pointed out what actions you can take while studying an opponent. They include attacking other opponents.
RobbyPants
10-31-06, 01:28 PM Compared to what a Rogue could have:

Uncanny Dodge: Same

Improved Evasion: Extremely good.

Crippling Strike: Strength damage of 2 on -any- sneak attack? Far better than almost all the abilities the Assassin gets.

Opportunist: Ehh... I don't like it too much, but a free attack is a free attack.

Skill Mastery: Alright, I suppose. I generally never take 10 under stress, anyways.

Slippery Mind: Love this ability.

Defensive Roll: Very poor, in my mind.

Or three free feats insted of the above.

That's compared to the regular assassin PrC. I agree that the DMG Assassin PrC isn't that strong. The point of this thread was for me to create a varient that didn't have the spells. In place of that, several of the suggestions I posted in the OP are very similar to what the rogue gains:

I was thinking about adding some of the following abitilties (in place of their removed spells):

Take 10 on Hide and Move Silently
Poison weapons as a move action.
Poison weapons as a free action.
Fast Climb: able to climb at double the normal rate.
Improved Evasion.
Ranged Death Attack (up to 30 feet, follows all other death attack restrictions).

Granted, they still need to be balanced a bit, and I'd add in that scaling "Improved Death Attack" ability we discussed earlier (to add to death attack sneak attack damage).

Dragon magazine's "Sage Advice" recently pointed out what actions you can take while studying an opponent. They include attacking other opponents.
That's not so bad.
DarknessEternal
10-31-06, 03:55 PM Dragon magazine's "Sage Advice" recently pointed out what actions you can take while studying an opponent. They include attacking other opponents.
Good luck maintaing your veil of not appearing to be a threat while attacking people though.

While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy.

In fact, I'd say this is another case of the Sage just being wrong.
gorfnad the shiznit
10-31-06, 06:34 PM What about taking the prestige class Ghost Faced Killer (from Complete Adventurer) instead?
RobbyPants
10-31-06, 06:37 PM Good luck maintaing your veil of not appearing to be a threat while attacking people though.
I suppose this could work with Greater Invisibility, but that's about it.

What about taking the prestige class Ghost Faced Killer (from Complete Adventurer) instead?
I love that one. I have a character that just got that PrC. It's just a different flavor from what I want.
Prime32
11-02-06, 05:22 AM You could attack the enmy of the one you're focusd on...
Findail
11-02-06, 01:08 PM I've often thought about modifying the Assassin PrC in my game to not use magic. Does anyone know of a PrC or modification that does this (official or homebrew)?
Yes: The Killer (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=131242)
RobbyPants
11-02-06, 01:42 PM Yes: The Killer (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=131242)
AWESOME :D I like it!

I like the flavor & feel of it. I may end up replacing the Assassin entirly with that PrC. Nicely done :clap:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RobbyPants 10-27-06, 03:13 PM	I've often thought about modifying the Assassin PrC in my game to not use magic. Does anyone know of a PrC or modification that does this (official or homebrew)? I've thought of how to do it, but I still haven't decided on anything yet... I was thinking about adding some of the following abitilties (in place of their removed spells): Take 10 on Hide and Move Silently Poison weapons as a move action. Poison weapons as a free action. Fast Climb: able to climb at double the normal rate. Improved Evasion. Ranged Death Attack (up to 30 feet, follows all other death attack restrictions). Greater Death Attack (works like Death Attack, but oncer per day, the assassin can declare a coup de grace (with the usual Fort save)). I still have to put some thought into this. Oppinions? Suggestions? Thanks :D
Prime32 10-27-06, 06:01 PM	Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=725037) is a variant assassin class I made based on Fire Emblem. There are links to others in the thread.
RobbyPants 10-30-06, 09:19 AM	Any other ideas? :lightbulb
Seldriss 10-30-06, 09:26 AM	Check out Legends & Lairs/City Works, where you'll find an Assassin class. Not a prestige class, a base class. No spells, just the essential : Sneak attack & assassination :D
Ryu Katsuragi 10-30-06, 09:33 AM	Greater Death Attack (works like Death Attack, but oncer per day, the assassin can declare a coup de grace (with the usual Fort save)). I'm wondering, by this, do you mean the Assassin just says 'this attack is a coup de grace' and hits them with it? I'm not sure I like the thought of that - What's to stop someone picking up a scythe, Power Attacking all their BAB away, then saying 'I coup de grace him'? I'd suggest something like Impromptu Sneak Attack, like the Arcane Trickster. Certain amount of times, one attack you make, before you roll, you declare to be a sneak attack. Nothing more.
Rowan_Whispercloak 10-30-06, 09:38 AM	Using the variant for Rangers and Paladins as an example you could do this: At 2nd level give the assassin Disguise Self (Sp): an assassin can use disguise spell as a spell-like abilty as a caster equal to his assassin level. at 4th give them the a supernatural ability to add +4 to Dex, Int, or Cha 1/day that last 1 minute/class level at 6th Nondetection 1/day spell-like ability caster level = class level at 8th Freedom of Movement 1/day spell-like ability caster level = class level. Or perhaps give the assassin bonus feats at 2nd, 4th, 6th and 8th that are taken from a list similiar to the scouts minus the obvious nature based one
RobbyPants 10-30-06, 10:05 AM	I'm wondering, by this, do you mean the Assassin just says 'this attack is a coup de grace' and hits them with it? What I meant was that you'd still have to hit normally, and it would still have to meet all the requirements for a death attack. To weaken it, I'd make the assassin declare the attempt before the attack roll is even rolled (possibly wasting the attempt). Thus, they could make the death attack a bit more potent by increasing the damage and forcing the Fort save for a CDG, which would be higher than the DC for the death attack. I'd probably change the attack to a CDG rather than adding it to the death attack (that way they don't have to save twice ;)). Sorry... should have explained better the first time. I'd suggest something like Impromptu Sneak Attack, like the Arcane Trickster. Certain amount of times, one attack you make, before you roll, you declare to be a sneak attack. Nothing more. This isn't a bad idea. It makes them a little more viable in combat where stealth isn't such a factor.
RobbyPants 10-31-06, 09:48 AM	Greater Death Attack (Ex): You may make a greater death attack once per day. You must declare the attempt before rolling the attack roll on a standard death attack. If the attack hits, it automatically performs a coup de grace (with sneak attack damage). The defender is allowed a Fort save with the useual DC against the coup de grace. This effect does not stack with the standard death attack effect. If the attempt fails, it is lost for the day. How does this seem for a 10th level capstone for a no-magic assassin? Too weak? Too powerful? The idea is that it will only be used once per day, and it still has the typical 3 round "charge up". It will only work on opponents that can be effected by a crit. It seems that frequently, the standard death attack DC is a bit low for many things an assassin would face. This is a way to up the DC on a single opponent, to make the assassin more deadly.
Ryu Katsuragi 10-31-06, 10:13 AM	Greater Death Attack (Ex): You may make a greater death attack once per day. You must declare the attempt before rolling the attack roll on a standard death attack. If the attack hits, it automatically performs a coup de grace (with sneak attack damage). The defender is allowed a Fort save with the useual DC against the coup de grace. This effect does not stack with the standard death attack effect. If the attempt fails, it is lost for the day. How does this seem for a 10th level capstone for a no-magic assassin? Too weak? Too powerful? The idea is that it will only be used once per day, and it still has the typical 3 round "charge up". It will only work on opponents that can be effected by a crit. It seems that frequently, the standard death attack DC is a bit low for many things an assassin would face. This is a way to up the DC on a single opponent, to make the assassin more deadly. It's better. I'm personally a little torn though, as I'm a rather cynical reviewer of things... My only problem is as it's an automatic critical, that means the only thing you'd see is Assassins with +5 flaming burst, acidic burst scythes. By doing so, giving people in the region of 70-110 Fortitude save to resist death... No-one would ever use death attack anymore, because compared to that, this ability is god. And how many marks would a Assassin have in a day? Very easy for this to be a one-hit-wonder for most BBEG's.
RobbyPants 10-31-06, 10:28 AM	It's better. I'm personally a little torn though, as I'm a rather cynical reviewer of things... My only problem is as it's an automatic critical, that means the only thing you'd see is Assassins with +5 flaming burst, acidic burst scythes. By doing so, giving people in the region of 70-110 Fortitude save to resist death... No-one would ever use death attack anymore, because compared to that, this ability is god. And how many marks would a Assassin have in a day? Very easy for this to be a one-hit-wonder for most BBEG's. Good point. That's why I ask you cynical (realistic) people these things ;). You have any suggestions? Perhaps a save DC increase on the death attack once per day (+4 maybe)? Also, what did you think about adding a 30 foot range to the death attack at 6th level? Is that too much?
Ryu Katsuragi 10-31-06, 10:34 AM	I'm not good at class design, but maybe an un-named bonus to Death Attack? Like Improved, Supreme, Greater, resulting in +6, or some such? Only thing I'm aiming at is trying to keep Death Attack as the main feature, you know? It's already a pretty bad ability, but it's the Assassin's 'thing'. By losing Death Attack to something else, he's pretty much losing his classe's identity. And I don't see the problem with the 30ft range, considering that there are classes and a feat which boosts the sneak attack range to 60ft. Better than one of the classes I saw which gave sneak attack at -any- range!
RobbyPants 10-31-06, 10:42 AM	Here's an idea I had for an Improved Death Attack: The same rules apply as for a normal death attack, but if the opponent makes his save, he takes an additional +2d6 sneak attack damage. This keeps the same flavor of the death attack, doesn't change the save DC, but makes the secondary effect more potent. So even if you're up against a foe with a very high Fort save, you can take 3 rounds to study him, and make a more potent sneak attack. I'm not sure what level I'd grant this. Perhaps it would scale... +1d6 @ level 4 +2d6 @ level 7 +3d6 @ level 10 I still have to balance it out a bit, but I think that's a better way to boost the death attack without making it too broken. :D
Ryu Katsuragi 10-31-06, 10:45 AM	Actually, I quite like that. ^^ Just tack on some cool name (I can't stand just 'Improved' and such in classes), so something like 'Strike of the Murderer', 'Wraith of the Killer', 'Heartless Backstab', or the like. ^^
RobbyPants 10-31-06, 10:50 AM	Actually, I quite like that. ^^ Just tack on some cool name (I can't stand just 'Improved' and such in classes), so something like 'Strike of the Murderer', 'Wraith of the Killer', 'Heartless Backstab', or the like. ^^ Cool! :cool: It's settled then! BTW, thanks for all your help. :D I've been thinking of different ways to do this for a while. Whenever I get around to actually writing this guy up, I'll post him.
DarknessEternal 10-31-06, 10:51 AM	You're in luck! WotC already made a non-magic using assassin. It's even a base class and in the PHB. It's called Rogue. At least it might be if you think you need stealth to be an assassin. Otherwise, it's called any possible class or combination of classes you take so long as your PC kills people for money.
Ryu Katsuragi 10-31-06, 11:01 AM	But we all know that's never enough for people. Look at the arguement where people argued the 'RP aspects' of playing a Frenzied Berzerker insted of a Barbarian with 'anger management problems'.
RobbyPants 10-31-06, 11:09 AM	I like rogues a lot. They certainly are arguably the best entry class into the standard Assassin PrC. The whole point of this thread wasn't to scrap the PrC, but to make a variation without the magic. What I particularly want was the Death Attack ability. I suppose I could go straight rogue if death attack were added to the list of special abilities the rogue can pick starting at level 10.
Ryu Katsuragi 10-31-06, 11:47 AM	I fail to see why you'd need it, honestly. Straight Rogue > Assassin. Rogue20 is more likely to kill something than Rogue10/Assassin10. Sad fact of life is, the Assassin class reeks of fail.
RobbyPants 10-31-06, 11:51 AM	I fail to see why you'd need it, honestly. Straight Rogue > Assassin. Rogue20 is more likely to kill something than Rogue10/Assassin10. Sad fact of life is, the Assassin class reeks of fail. You have a point. Part of it is flavor, part of it is the safe poison use. With the varient I'm suggesting, I think it would make it a more viable choice. The problem with the assassin PrC is that an effective assassin needs to be patient. Waiting 3 rounds in combat just isn't going to cut it. This PrC is much nicer for scouting missions, and other encounters where the victim doesn't know you're there (or preceive you as an enemy). It's a good class, but it can't be fairly compared to someone that goes toe to toe with the enemy.
Ryu Katsuragi 10-31-06, 11:57 AM	Problem is, why wait? I mean, if you're that close to an enemy, you wouldn't need to Death Attack. Quick Draw your two weapons as a free action, one stab with sneak attack surprise round. With your good initiative, beat them, dual attack them and they'll probably fall. The main problem I have with the class is the whole Death Attack. I love the thought of it... but it doesn't work. Anything which has a chance to fail against it (like a Wizard) usually has things in place to avoid it. At higher levels, the high Fort Fighters will probably have Fortification anyway to get rid of pesky Rogues. Quite a few high level monsters (such as dragons) you won't have a chance beating them with it, and the rest are usually so weird you don't know their anatomy. Poison Use is great - but by the time you get to this class, poisons are so bad they're not worth it. And I'm not comparing it with something which goes toe-to-toe with the enemy. Rogues share the same low hit die, and light armour as the Assassin. Only time a Rogue should -ever- be toe-to-toe is if they can tumble into a flanking position with TWF. My level 8 Swashbuckler/Fighter/Rogue has learnt better than trying to tank in place of our incompetant tanks.
SeattleLightning 10-31-06, 12:05 PM	For what its worth I tend to agree with Ryu. I'm very much in favor of using as few classes as reasonably possible and learning to adapt your character concepts to them.
RobbyPants 10-31-06, 12:28 PM	And I'm not comparing it with something which goes toe-to-toe with the enemy. Rogues share the same low hit die, and light armour as the Assassin. Only time a Rogue should -ever- be toe-to-toe is if they can tumble into a flanking position with TWF. My level 8 Swashbuckler/Fighter/Rogue has learnt better than trying to tank in place of our incompetant tanks. What an assassin gets is flexability. He still has the same sneak attack and BAB of a rogue of similar level. He can still do the same things as a rogue in combat. What he gets in addition is the ability to perform a death attack (which is, arguably, a very situational advantage). I don't think a rogue is really sacrificing too much to dip into the assassin class. You just have to remember that Death Attack is not the be all and end all of an assassin; it's just another one of his tools.
Ryu Katsuragi 10-31-06, 12:46 PM	Just looking now... Poison Use: Barely used after sixth level, in my experience. Death Attack: Situational, and even then, a terrible ability. Spells: Somewhat useful, but most, like Death Attack will be easily resisted later. Save vs. Poison: Too weak as they are, so this is weak. Uncanny Dodge: Very nice. Hide in Plain Sight: Equally nice. Compared to what a Rogue could have: Uncanny Dodge: Same Improved Evasion: Extremely good. Crippling Strike: Strength damage of 2 on -any- sneak attack? Far better than almost all the abilities the Assassin gets. Opportunist: Ehh... I don't like it too much, but a free attack is a free attack. Skill Mastery: Alright, I suppose. I generally never take 10 under stress, anyways. Slippery Mind: Love this ability. Defensive Roll: Very poor, in my mind. Or three free feats insted of the above. I personally feel you lose alot. I know what people say about flavour and all, but that's it: Assassin isn't taken for it's nifty abilities. Sad fact is (now I'm going to sound elitist), people now can't 'feel' their character is something unless it's a class... I got insulted once on a site because I called me Elf Fighter/Swashbuckler an assassin, because I couldn't pick locks, 'because I'm supposed to be able to and lied about my class'. o.o
Prime32 10-31-06, 12:57 PM	Waiting 3 rounds in combat just isn't going to cut it. Dragon magazine's "Sage Advice" recently pointed out what actions you can take while studying an opponent. They include attacking other opponents.
RobbyPants 10-31-06, 01:28 PM	Compared to what a Rogue could have: Uncanny Dodge: Same Improved Evasion: Extremely good. Crippling Strike: Strength damage of 2 on -any- sneak attack? Far better than almost all the abilities the Assassin gets. Opportunist: Ehh... I don't like it too much, but a free attack is a free attack. Skill Mastery: Alright, I suppose. I generally never take 10 under stress, anyways. Slippery Mind: Love this ability. Defensive Roll: Very poor, in my mind. Or three free feats insted of the above. That's compared to the regular assassin PrC. I agree that the DMG Assassin PrC isn't that strong. The point of this thread was for me to create a varient that didn't have the spells. In place of that, several of the suggestions I posted in the OP are very similar to what the rogue gains: I was thinking about adding some of the following abitilties (in place of their removed spells): Take 10 on Hide and Move Silently Poison weapons as a move action. Poison weapons as a free action. Fast Climb: able to climb at double the normal rate. Improved Evasion. Ranged Death Attack (up to 30 feet, follows all other death attack restrictions). Granted, they still need to be balanced a bit, and I'd add in that scaling "Improved Death Attack" ability we discussed earlier (to add to death attack sneak attack damage). Dragon magazine's "Sage Advice" recently pointed out what actions you can take while studying an opponent. They include attacking other opponents. That's not so bad.
DarknessEternal 10-31-06, 03:55 PM	Dragon magazine's "Sage Advice" recently pointed out what actions you can take while studying an opponent. They include attacking other opponents. Good luck maintaing your veil of not appearing to be a threat while attacking people though. While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. In fact, I'd say this is another case of the Sage just being wrong.
gorfnad the shiznit 10-31-06, 06:34 PM	What about taking the prestige class Ghost Faced Killer (from Complete Adventurer) instead?
RobbyPants 10-31-06, 06:37 PM	Good luck maintaing your veil of not appearing to be a threat while attacking people though. I suppose this could work with Greater Invisibility, but that's about it. What about taking the prestige class Ghost Faced Killer (from Complete Adventurer) instead? I love that one. I have a character that just got that PrC. It's just a different flavor from what I want.
Prime32 11-02-06, 05:22 AM	You could attack the enmy of the one you're focusd on...
Findail 11-02-06, 01:08 PM	I've often thought about modifying the Assassin PrC in my game to not use magic. Does anyone know of a PrC or modification that does this (official or homebrew)? Yes: The Killer (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=131242)
RobbyPants 11-02-06, 01:42 PM	Yes: The Killer (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=131242) AWESOME :D I like it! I like the flavor & feel of it. I may end up replacing the Assassin entirly with that PrC. Nicely done :clap: