Post/Author/DateTime	Post
unundindur 07-02-07, 12:20 PM	I wanted to create the assassin as a base class first and foremost because the rogue only feels like an assassin at the first level, where a sneak attack can outright kill a creature in one hit. From then on, the rogue acts more like a scoundrel that fights dirty and deal high damage over time, instead of an assassins focus on swift assults. Secondly I wanted to create a class that rule-wise allowed the player to create just "that" assassin they envision, be it a brutal thug or an elegant noble. This is also part of the reason why I think the Assassin prestige class from the dungeon master guide falls short. It forces assassins down a certain road. The third reason is also the second reason I dislike the Assassin prestige class. The mechanics for the Death attack ability (of various prestige classes) are flawed in many ways. First it requires to much effort compared to its power, secondly it scales poorly and third it is very hard to actually use in a party-situation (even though assassins may conceptually not care about this, I do because its supposed to be a playable class). So in my mind this assassin fills a nichè, and is mechanically unique while still being flexible. The Assassin, as with the Thief (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=883209), Magician (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=885421), and Warrior (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=886771) make for my base-class lineup. In my games these are the only base classes, and other concepts are created as variants and mixes of those above. While they are made to work and mesh well with each other, for balancing purposes they are aligned to the Tome of Battle classes, the rebalanced Paladin (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=761045) and normal casters from the Players handbook 3.5. For my personal games we also have a list of home rules, but these should not have any inpact on the gameplay and balance of the above classes. Still I list them here so you can see just how I use these classes: ~Eiir campaign standard 1.0~ I use the point buy method for stats, with 32 points. All stats start at 8. 9-15 cost 1 point, 16-17 cost 2 points and 18 cost 3 points. A stat can also be lowered down to a minimum of 6, with a gain of 1/2 point per decrease. Players and important villains gain maximum hit points at every level, while ordinary npcs gain half. The scimitar and rapier are light weapons. The short sword, long sword and bastard sword deal slashing or piercing damage. All characters gain Weapon finesse, Power attack, Combat expertise and Improved expertise for free. You do not suffer any penalty for multiclassing. Fractional bonuses, from Unearthed arcana (pg 73). You gain feats, skills and ability bonuses for level-adjustment levels. All skills are class skills for all classes, except use magic device and spellcraft. Dagger is a special monk weapon. We use level-independent xp awards from Unearthed arcana (pg 213). The feat Two-weapon fighting grant a character the ability to make an additional off hand attack any time he would be allowed an attack (thus it incorporates perfect two-weaon fighting and a lot of other feats), but all attacks suffer a -5 penalty. Sneak attack only apply to the first attack with each hand. Before looking further, please take heed that I do not use the basic core classes as basis of balance, but rather the rebalanced paladin (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=761045), the Thief (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=883209), the Magician (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=885421), the Warrior (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=886771), the classes from Tome of Battle and magic users from PHB 3.5. If you think the PHB classes are fine, look no further. I want critique based on the parameter above. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToMagic_Gallery/96083.jpg "People kill cattle for food, some even kill the cattle they hold dear, I find the latter despicable. Why is it so problematic to kill someone of whom you have no relation to at all? Are we as humans so very very special? I value family and friends, which is also why I accept contracts on their nabours head, so they can thrive and prosper." - Contractor Irenis Fend Assassin Hit Die: d6 BaB: Full Saves: Bad Fortitude, Good Reflex, Bad Will Skillpoints at 1st level: (6+int modifier)*4 Skillpoints at each additional level: 6+int modifier Class skills: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex). Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Assassins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as with light armour. The Assassin Hit Die: d6 Base Attack Fort Ref Will Level BaB Save Save Save Special 1 +1 +0 +2 +0 Predict, Assassinate 1/encounter, Basic poison use, Basic unarmed training, Basic trapfinding 2 +2 +0 +3 +0 Advanced application 3 +3 +1 +3 +1 Specialisation 4 +4 +1 +4 +1 Trick of the trade 5 +5 +1 +4 +1 Advanced application 6 +6/+1 +2 +5 +2 Specialisation 7 +7/+2 +2 +5 +2 Trick of the trade 8 +8/+3 +2 +6 +2 Advanced application 9 +9/+4 +3 +6 +3 Specialisation 10 +10/+5 +3 +7 +3 Trick of the trade 11 +11/+6/+1 +3 +7 +3 Advanced application 12 +12/+7/+2 +4 +8 +4 Specialisation 13 +13/+8/+3 +4 +8 +4 Trick of the trade 14 +14/+9/+4 +4 +9 +4 Advanced application 15 +15/+10/+5 +5 +9 +5 Specialisation 16 +16/11/+6/+1 +5 +10 +5 Trick of the trade 17 +17/+12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Advanced application 18 +18/+13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +6 Specialisation 19 +19/+14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +6 Trick of the trade 20 +20/+15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +6 Advanced application Predict (Ex) An assassin is trained at predicting the blows of his adversaries, and can evade blows ellegantly when not restricted by cumbersome armour. An assassin adds his intelligence modifier (if positive) up to a maximum equal his class level as an insightbonus to armourclass. This ability only works while wearing armour with an armour check penalty of 0 or no armour, and is denied when caught flat-footed. Basic poison use (Ex) An assassin never risk accidentally poisoning himself when applying or using poisons, nor do he provoke attacks of opportunity while applying or using poisons. Basic unarmed training (Ex) An assassin gains the feat Improved unarmed strike for free at level 1. Basic trapfinding (Ex) Assassins are trained in the basics of traps and can find and disarm traps with a DC higher than 20. The assassin still need to beat the normal DCs' to find and disarm traps, and he cannot find and disarm magical traps. This ability do not qualify as trapfinding for any purpose, such as a requirement. Assassinate 1/encounter (Ex) An assassin can virtually kill creatures instantly when focused on the task at hand. When wearing light or no armor and making an attack against a flat-footed target within 30 feet, an assassin can chose to deal an extra 2d6 points of damage per class level. The extra damage is of the same type as the weapon delivering the hit. Assassinate can be used once per encounter, but if the attack misses, this ability is not used for that encounter, and can be re-tried again as long as the requirements are fulfilled. Anyone immune to sneak attack is also immune to the assassinate ability. Assassinate cannot be delivered via spells. This ability is similar in damage to a disintegrate spell not mitigated by a successful save. Given that its a lv 6 spell, and this ability is only usable once per encounter I personally don't see a problem with it. Secondly we have the rebalanced paladin (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=761045) that by taking two smite-feats can shoot forth a 30 feet line dealing 1d6 divine damage per class level up to 5 times per encounter (at level 20). This is also without needing to hit. Third we have the warblade, who can deal normal damage +100 at 17th level with relative frequency. If we assume that the warblade's normal damage equals that of the assassin, we see that the assassin do not even double the warblade's damage, and cannot recharge his attack by any means, nor have a plenora of other powerful options at his side. Last we have the rogue that deal 1/2 its level in d6s but on each attack (at high levels that is the reality). If played efficiently a rogue can easily deal 4 such hits or more in a round, thus making up for the assassinate ability in one round. Given that a a rogue potencially can follow this routine in consequent rounds his ability is still stronger. The strength of the assassinate ability is though, as it should be, that it can take out a target instantly, thus removing a potencial danger (that could otherwise heal in the meantime). Advanced application (Ex) At 2th level, and each 3rd level thereafter the assassin learns to utilize some of his equipment to greater benefit. Each time the assassin gains this ability he can chose one of the benfits from the list below: A weapon of your choice gains a range increment of 10 feet. If the weapon already have a range increment, it is expanded by +10 feet. This ability can be taken more than once, each time applying to a different type of weapon. With a weapon of your choice, you deal +1 damage. This ability can be taken more than once, each time applying to a different type of weapon. A weapon of your choice gains a new damage type option. This ability can be taken more than once, each time applying to a different type of weapon. For example a dagger could deal slashing or piercing or blunt damage. The maximum dexterity bonus of an armor type of your choice increases by +1. This ability can be taken more than once, each time applying to a different type of armour. The armour check penalty of an armour type of your choice decreases by -1. This ability can be taken more than once, each time applying to a different type of armour. With a weapon of your choice you can deal subdual damage without penalty. This ability can be taken more than once, each time applying to a different type of weapon. You count a grappling hook as a whip-dagger. You still require proficiency to wield it efficiently. You count hemp and silk ropes as a whip. You still require proficiency to wield it efficiently. You gain immunity to a single poison of your choice. This ability can be taken more than once, each time applying to a different poison. Specialist (Ex) Assassins specialise their training to acheive perfection in what they deem most useful. At 3rd level, and each 3rd level thereafter an assassin gains a new ability. Each time the assasin can either improve one of his previous specialisations, or begin to specialise in a new field. Acrobatics You have specialised in acrobatics. Either as a cover for your skills, or as part of your deadly arts you posess extraordinare bodily control. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dmg35_gallery/DMG35_PG195_WEB.jpg (STEP I) Quick and nimble (Ex): You can use the tumble, jump and balance skills while moving at normal speed without penalty. (STEP II) Routine performance (Ex): You can "take 10" on balance, jump and tumble checks under any circumstance. (STEP III) Acrobatic assault (Ex): You can charge through any terrain, and you neither need a stright line to charge. Assassination You have specialised yourself at the purest of forms, in the act of the actual assassination. You posess skill in the ply of this trade that few assassins ever acheive, and for this you are feared. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rod_gallery/86320.jpg (STEP I) Silencing attack (Ex): When struck by the assassinate ability, the target is automatically silenced for 1d4+1 rounds. (STEP II) Sinister strike (Ex): Add intelligence modifier to hit when using the assassinate ability. (STEP III) Perfect strike (Ex): The dice rolled when using the assassinate ability increases from d6 to d8. Grappling You have specialised in the art of grappling, and have thus become adept at suffocating and choking your targets. You master a form few expect, which is perhaps your greatest strength. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/moi_gallery/91035.jpg (STEP I) Expert grappler (Ex): You gain the benefit of the Improved grapple feat. (STEP II) Choke-lock (Ex): Each round you maintain a pin your enemy starts suffocating. (STEP III) Death-lock (Ex): When you maintain a pin you can automatically deal blunt damage equal your assassinate ability. Using this ability spends a use of the assassinate-ability as usual. Infiltration You are a master of subterfuge and desception. You are at home behind enemy lines and prefer to walk onto your target instead of sneaking. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/compmage_gallery/100487.jpg (STEP I) Silver Tongue (Ex): You take only half the normal penalty for making a rushed diplomacy check. (STEP II) Social Routine (Ex): You can "take 10" on diplomacy, bluff and disguise checks under any circumstance. (STEP III) Quick change (Ex): You can create a disguise by spending only one minute. Mastermind You specialise in monitoring others, thus preventing harm to yourself. You are an expert leader and make others work harder. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/hoh_gallery/91983.jpg (STEP I) Advanced tactics (Ex): You can use aid another as long as you have visual contact with your ally. (STEP II) Tactical advice (Ex): Whenever an assassin uses the aid another action, the bonus lasts for 5 rounds. A target can thus gain multiple benefits simultaneously, but similar bonuses overlap (such as using aid another on hit-rolls twice in a row). (STEP III) Fieldcontrol (Ex): When using the aid another action the bonus you provide can affect up to 1 ally per point of intelligence modifier you posess. Mechanic You have focused on a eccenteric part of the ply, and specialised in mechanics and devices. You are at home with locks and traps, and prefer to set up ambushes instead of entering the domain of your quarrel. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cx_gallery/86356.jpg (STEP I) Improvise trap (Ex): You can designate a 5 foot square as a trap. This takes 10 rounds. Once a creature enters this square you can make a ranged touch attack, if you hit you deal assassinate damage (but nothing else). Using this ability expends one use of the assassinate ability and cost 50*assassins class level in material components. (STEP II) Shutdown (Ex): You can use the assassinate ability against constructs, even though they are immune to critical hits. (STEP III) Advanced trap (Ex): When you have set a trap as outligned above it deals splash damage equal 1/4 the damage (rounded down) of the base assassinate damage to everyone within 5 feet of the trap. Poisoning You have specialised in the art of poisoning, and as such your action sow terror in rich courts acoss the realm. Your skill is such that you can utilize even the most basic toxin to deadly effect. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/Dragonmarked_Gallery/101355.jpg (STEP I) Rapid coat (Ex): The assassin can apply poison to a weapon as a free action. (STEP II) Deadly application (Ex): When rolling for poison damage, the assassin can reroll the result once. He must keep the second roll. (STEP III) Metodical approach (Ex): The assassin adds his intelligence modifier (if positive) to the save DC of all poisons he uses. Protection You have specialised in counter-assassination and protection. You are the perfect bodyguard and with your knowledge of your trade you can snooze out assassins and danger anywhere. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/pgtf_gallery/78844.jpg (STEP I) Keen senses (Ex): You gain blindsense out to 5 feet. (STEP II) Instinctive step (Ex): You can switch place with a willing ally within 5 feet as an immediate action 1/encounter. If this is done while the ally was targetted by an attack or other effect, that effect instead targets the assassin. In addition, the radius of your blindsense increases by 5 feet. (STEP III) Understanding of the ply (Ex): All allies within 5 feet radius of the assassin (including the assassin) take half damage from the assassinate ability of other assassins. In addition the radius of your blindsense increases by 5 feet. Sniper You have specialised in sniping people from afar. Your power is in the distance between you are your target, and you use this for waht it is worth. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/Dragonmarked_Gallery/101364.jpg (STEP I) Steady aim (Ex): For each -2 penalty you take to your hit roll, you can use the assassinate ability 30 feet further away. If applicable, the penalty stacks with range increments for your weapon. Using this ability is a full round action. (STEP II) Quick aim (Ex): You can use the steady aim ability as a standard action. (STEP III) Deadly precision (Ex): The penalty for using the steady aim ability is reduced from -2 to -1 for each 30 feet. Stalking You specialise in tracking down your enemies and exploiting your understanding of them. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/UnA_Gallery/79149.jpg (STEP I) Track (Ex): You gain track as a bonus feat, and can track as a ranger. (STEP II) Stalk (Ex): Whenever an Assassin studies a spesific victim for a full day (via interaction, observation, books or otherwise) doing little else (not adventuring) he gains a +1 insight bonus on bluff, listen, sense motive, spot and survival checks as well as damage against his prey. The Assassin may study a victim for up to two consecutive days to gain double effect. This bonus relates only to a spesific creature, but doesn’t fade with time. Once the Assassin knows how an opponent moves he don’t easily forget. (STEP III) Lengthy study (Ex): The assassin can study a target for up to 3 + the assassin's constitution modifier days, thus increasing the bonuses equally. Stealth You are a specialist in stealth and can blend in with yoursorroundings in ways that lesser people would never beleive. Your devotion makes hiding a routine and silence your brother. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/DrowUnderdark_Gallery/104463.jpg (STEP I) Light paced (Ex): You take no penalty to hide and move silently checks when moving at your normal speed. (STEP II) Routine of darkness (Ex): You can "take 10" on hide and move silently checks under any circumstance. (STEP III) Darkrunner (Ex): You take no penalty to hide and move silently even while running or charging. You can even tumble without taking a penalty to those skills. Weapon specialist You specialise in the mastery of your favoured weapon. With this weapon you equal, if not supersede even warriors in skill and versatility. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/DrowUnderdark_Gallery/104485.jpg (STEP I) Specialised training (Ex): You count assassin levels as fighter levels for qualifying for feats, and you gain weapon focus with a single weapon you are proficient. (STEP II) Anatomical knowledge (Ex): You add your intelligence modifier (if positive) as an insight bonus to damage rolls (in addition to strength) with the same weapon you took weapon focus with at step I. (STEP III) Certain strike (Ex): With any weapon you have weapon focus, you can chose to "take 10" on attack rolls. Furthermore you do not suffer any ill consequence by rolling a natural 1 on the dice. Trick of the trade (Ex) Assassins pick up small tidbits of knowledge and skill wherever they go, and at level 4 and each 3rd level thereafter an assassin can chose one of the following benefits: The save DC of all poisons you utilize increases by one.[stacks with itself] You gain a +2 bonus to one class-skill.[stacks with itself] You gain a +1 bonus on will saves.[stacks with itself] The damage you inflict with the assassinate ability increases by +1d6 damage.[stacks with itself] Your base speed increases by 5 feet.[stacks with itself] When using aid another to increase allies hit-rolles you provide an extra +2 bonus. You neither have to roll to see if you success when helping someone to hit. [Stacks with itself] You gain a +1 bonus on all saving throws against traps.[Stacks with itself] You can "take 10" on one of your class skills under any circumstance. [can ability be taken more than once, each time applying to a different skill] You gain a +2 bonus on initiative rolls.[Stacks with itself] EDIT: Here I list what changes have been made to this post. The last changes are found at the bottom of the list. Changed the text of the protection specialisation to clarify. Fixed inconsistency in the specialisation text. Improved stepIII of the Organizer specialisation to make it more useful. Changed formatting Introduced step IV abilities. Removed Morte Totale from lv 20 Added fluff to specialisations. Merged certain specialisation trees. [Arcane ghost is gone] Changed basic trapfinding to allow all non-magical traps. Added sniper tree. Removed the improved assassination feat. It is now part of the assassination tree. Added art across the board. Added "Advanced application", which led to a list of changes in tricks of the trade. Changed step III of the weapon specialisation tree. Added a few feats. Added ability types (Ex, Su, Sp) Removed step VI abilies across the board. Added "the larger picture" text at the top. Changed the initial level you gain specialisations, tricks of the trade and advanced applications. Added "Assassins and published material". Moved feats and "Assassins and published material" to the second post. Added stalking specialisation. Changed step II of the organizer specialisation. Added clause to the assassinate ability. Organizer specialisation have become Mastermind. Added clause to the basic trapfinding ability. Added heal to list of class skills. Changed font. Added fluff text. Predict is now tightened, and relates to armour check penalty. Changed step III og the infiltation ability from full-round to 1 minute. Added poison immunity to tricks of the trade. Added a boost to poison use. Changed step III of the stealth specialisation. (24.03.2008) Moved some abilitities from tricks of the trade to advanced application. Cleaned up the description of the Assassinate ability, to make it easier to understand. Fixed typos across the board.
unundindur 07-03-07, 08:02 PM	To do list: Check over all abilities for inconsistency and faults. Add more advanced applications. New feats Here are some new feats that work well for an assassin Ascetic assassin [general] You blend the traditions of your monastic style with the deadliness of the assasins ply to form a unique style of combat. Requirement: Assassinate 1/encounter, Still mind. Benefit: For the purpose of calculating unarmed damage your assassin levels count as monk levels. Furthermore for the purpose of the assassinate ability your monk levels count as assasin levels. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dmag_gallery/100220.jpg A monastic assassin can be a terrible display. Broad specialisation [general] You have studied many aspects of the ply, and know more than others in many fields. Requirement: Assassinate 1/encounter, Specialisation. Benefit: You gain the specialisation ability of an assassin. You can only chose step I abilities for this feat. Clever wrestler [General] You are a smart bastard when it comes to grappling, and you plan your moves to great effect. Requirement: Improved Grapple, Int 13 Benefit: You can use your intelligence modifier in place of your strength modifier on all grapple checks. Normal: Normally you can only use your strength while grappling. One hand specialist [general] You have trained spesifically at utilizing a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other. Requirement: Dex 13 Benefit: As long as you hold nothing in your off-hand, any one handed weapon you wield count as a two-handed weapon for all beneficial purposes. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/compscoundrel_gallery/102046.jpg An assassin using his single dagger to gruesome display. Practised assassin [general] Even though you have changed your focus, you still practise your skills in assassination. Requirement: Assassinate 1/encounter Benefit: For the purpose of the assassinate ability you count as an assassin four levels higher, up to a maximum of your character level. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/compscoundrel_gallery/102086.jpg A now wizard continues his training as an assassin. New items Here are some new items that relate to assassins and their ply. Konira's circle In a time long past, a reputed assassin named Konira had her most powerful wizard imbue this ring with the power of her targets. Soon after, she was dead, and the ring likely stolen by rivals. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/DrowUnderdark_Gallery/104461.jpg Konira's circle Description: This ring is made of polished iron that seem never to tarnish. It also has a faint red hue, that is only seen upon close inspection. Activation: Konira's circle is activated when put on the hand, and its effect is continous. Effect: When you kill a creature, you can chose to gain a +4 insight bonus to the highest ability score of the killed creature. This bonus last untill you kill a new creature, and chose to take that creature's ability score. Aura/Caster level: Strong necromancy and divination, CL 5th. Construction: Craft ring, speak with the dead, enervation, guidance. Price: [?] gp. Vial of hidden death While many who utilize poisons couldn't care less, some, particularily assassins go to great length to hide their intentions. For this purpose assassins once found a way to hide their poisons from detection, and this vial was a fact. Description: This vial looks exceptionally plain, and its content is clear as water. It bears no distingushing marks whatsoever. Activation: This vial is activated when filled with a liquid. At that point it is continually active. Effect: When the vial is filled with a liquid, the liquid turnes transparent and the content detects as non-magical and non-poisonous from all detection spells. Aura/Caster level: Moderate illusion, CL 5th. Construction: Craft wonderous item, obscure object. Price: 1000 gp. Weapon special abilities The following are a set of new weapon properties that interract especially well with the art of assassination. Blackwounding A blackwounding weapon deal wounds that don't heal, and wounds so inflicted grow black as death itself. Description: A blackwounding weapon is typically slightly darker than usual, and possess a dull and unremarkable appearance. Activation: The blackwounding ability is always active and cannot be turned of. Effect: Damage dealt by a weapon with this ability cannot be healed by regenration, fast healing or spells untill 24 hours have passed. Aura/Caster level: Strong necromancy; CL 15th. Construction: Craft Magic Arms and Armor plus graymantle, harm and permanency. Price: +5. Penetrating A penetrating weapon pierce through magical protection. Assassins have favoured penetrating weapons as they effectively foil troublesome defenses. Description: A penetrating weapon typically have a very clean, but plain blade, and few distinguishing marks. Activation: This ability is constantly active, and cannot be disabled. Effect: A penetrating weapon ignore all immunity to critical hits and precision based damage that originates from items and spells. This ability can only be placed on piercing weapons. Aura/Caster level: Moderate divination and transmutation; CL 15th. Construction: Craft Magic Arms and Armor plus Keen edge and Moment of Prescience. Price: +1. Soul capturing A Soul capturing weapon absorb the souls of those it kills. Great assassins have favoured these weapons for as long as clerics have raised the fallen. Description: A Soul capturing weapon is typically ornate and exclusive, adorned with gems and rare materials. Activation: This ability is activated when the weapon deals a killing stroke against a target. The wielder can chose if he want the to use this ability or not. Effect: The soul of any creature killed by the soul capturing weapon is absorbed into the weapon. While contained within the weapon, the target is prevented from beeing raised by the raise dead, ressurrect and even true ressurrection spells. The weapon can never hold more spirits than 1+ the charisma modifier of the wielder. The wielder can at any time chose to release victim-spirits. Aura/Caster level: Strong necromancy; CL 18th. Construction: Craft Magic Arms and Armor plus Blackjar. Price: +2. Assassins and published material Here are some rules on how the assassin relate to published material such as feats and prestige classes. For the purpose of qualifying for feats and prestige-classes, considder +4d6 assassinate damage as equal to +1d6 sneak attack damage. Feats that lower a characters number of sneak attack dice to gain an effect also work for the assassinate ability, with the same trade ratio (for this purpose, +1d6 sneak attack equal +1d6 assassinate damage). Prestige classes, items and abilities that grant sneak attack can be translated to grant a bonus to assassinate equal four times as much damage. For example, an assassin who takes a prestige class granting +1d6 sneak attack damage could chose instead to gain +4d6 assassinate damage, but thus losing the +1d6 sneak attack damage. This doesn't work with base classes. Items, spells and abilities that modify the dice of a sneak attack modify the dice of the assassinate ability in a similar manner. For example an item that lets you reroll all 1's on sneak attack damage lets you do the same with assassinate. Prestige classes, items and abilities that grant a bonus to the DC of a death attack instead grant +2d6 assassinate damage per increase in the DC of a regular death attack. If a class grants both sneak attack and death attack progression, chose the most favourable. For all other purposes sneak attack and assassinate are completely separate. For example an assassin would not be able to take the Devastating blow feat to deal assassinate damage on a critical hit. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ud_gallery/52102_CN.jpg Resistance http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/5n_gallery/90023.jpg The dark king http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/spellcomp_gallery/92213.jpg An assassins worst enemy http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ssouth_gallery/84352.jpg The unlikely assassin http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/compscoundrel_gallery/102039.jpg A dancer or danger? http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/compscoundrel_gallery/102042.jpg The law catches up with an assassin. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/DrowUnderdark_Gallery/104449.jpg Some soceieties openly support assassins. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/DrowUnderdark_Gallery/104491.jpg Murder can be done for many reasons, to some it is pleasure.
Waldo_di 07-03-07, 11:50 PM	why does an assassin get improved unarmed attack?, I like assassinate maybe give him it more like 2x per encounter at 10th and 3x at 20th but don't let him use it more than once on the same creature or only have it on the same creature. trick of the trade's not bad but let them choose a bonus feat if they want also I'd make the will save Trick of the trade a choose an save and increase it by 2, make the extra assassinate damage +2d6, make it +10 ft for speed don't have it stack, put evasion, uncanny dodge and there improved versions in Trick of the trade. Thats all for know.
Schitzophrenia_Manifest 07-04-07, 12:56 AM	This is certainly one of the better fixes for the assassin class that I've seen (including my own). Here's my critique (with my own commentary replacing yours): Proficiencies Assassins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as with light armour. I dunno about all martial weapons. While the idea of a stealthy assassin sneaking around a castle with a greataxe sounds completely awesome to me, one would think that such an assassin would also be trained as a fighter (multiclassing). Predict An assassin is trained at predicting the blows of his adversaries, and can evade blows ellegantly when not restricted by cumbersome armour. An assassin adds his intelligence modifier (if positive) up to a maximum equal his class level as an insightbonus to armourclass. This ability only works while wearing light or no armour, and is denied when caught flat-footed. Sounds good. Especially since it's dip-proof (Heheh. Pun). Basic poison use An assassin never risk accidentally poisoning himself when applying or using poisons. The ability that every assassin needs. Basic unarmed training An assassin gains the Improved unarmed strike for free at level 1. Now this I'm not sure of. As it's generally more effective to kill things with a dagger than with your bare hands (except in the case of the monk), one would think that the assassin wouldn't focus on unarmed combat. If this ability is to be kept, there should be others at later levels that improve on it. Basic trapfinding Assassins are trained in the basics of traps and can find and disarm traps with a DC of 20+the assassins class level. The assassin still need to beat the normal DCs' to find and diarm traps. At first I was iffy about this one, it being a rogue ability and me believing firmly that rogues and assassins are very separate archetypes. But since it scales with the assassin's level, and because of the later ability to specialize in trapmaking, I think it's okay where it is. Assassinate 1/encounter An assassin can virtually kill creatures instantly when focused on the task at hand. As a standard action an assassin can add 2d6 points of damage per class level to a melee attack or a ranged attack within 30 feet, against a flat-footed opponent. The damage dealt is of the same type as the weapon it is delivered with. If the attack misses this ability is not used for that encounter. Assassinate can be used once per encounter. Anyone immune to sneak attack is also immune to the assassinate ability. I had to read over this a couple times, because the first time I missed the clause "against a flat-footed opponent". Even then though, I'm still not sure about it. The assassin PRC in the DMG has a similar attack that can only be used if the assassin spends a considerable amount of time observing his target. This Assassinate ability however, strikes me as something where the assassin can just point at this target and scream "BANG! You're dead". I'm over-exaggerating to make my point of course, but I'm pretty sure you still understand where I'm going with this. Specialist Assassins specialise their training to acheive perfection in what they deem most useful. At level 3, and each third level thereafter an assassin gains a new ability. Each time the assasin can either improve one of his previous specialisations, or begin to specialise in a new field. Okay, let me make one thing clear. I LOVE this idea. And I probably would have had something similar for my own version of this class, had I possessed more than a handful of ideas for specialization trees. Oh, and while the text here says the abilities are gained starting at level 3, while in your code chart it has them starting at level 2. Which is it? Stealth STEP I: No penalty to hide and move silently for moving at full speed STEP II:Take 10 on hide and move silently STEP III:Hide in plain sight Looks nice. Of course I have no idea if it'd be overpowered in an actual game or anything, but it looks nice anyway. PoisoningSTEP I:Apply poison as a free action STEP II:Reroll poison damage STEP III:Add intelligence modifier to the DC of all poisons used. I think for STEP III the ability should add the assassin's Int modifier to the DC of any poisons he crafts himself, since intelligence really has little factor in how you actually apply a poison. Unless of course you accidentally poison yourself. But I guess assassins don't have to worry about that anyway. Grappling STEP I:Improved grapple STEP II:Earths embrace STEP III:when you maintain a pin you can automatically deal assassinate damage , this spends a use of assassinate as usual Flippin' sweet. [B]Infiltration STEP I:Take 10 diplomacy, bluff and disguise STEP II:Half penalty for making a rushed diplomacy check STEP III:reroll diplomacy, bluff or disguise check 1/day Now this tree I think is great. The third ability could probably be replaced with something better (can't think of anything off the top of my head, though). Protection STEP I:You gain blindsense 5 feet. STEP II:You can switch place with a willying ally within 5 feet as an immediate action 1/encounter. STEP III:Everyone within a 5 feet radius of you (inc you) take half damage from the assassinate ability. The first ability strikes me as being more powerful than the second. And I just don't understand the third one. Acrobatics STEP I:You can use the tumble, jump and balance skills while moving at normal speed without penalty. STEP II:Take 10 on tumble, jump and balance checks. STEP III:Can charge through any terrain. Seems okay. Weapon specialist STEP I:Count assassin levels as fighter levels for qualifying for feats, and gain weapon focus (any one weapon) STEP II:Prescise strike: Int to damage (in addition to eventual strength) with the same weapon as you have weapon focus with. STEP III:You can use your designated weapon effectively under water, while grappling and you are immune to disarming and sunder attempts. The third ability seems a little powerful, but otherwise I like it. Assassination STEP I:Reroll all 1's when using the assassinate ability STEP II:Add intelligence modifier to hit when using the assassinate ability. STEP III:The dice rolled when using the assassinte ability increases by 1 step. In my opinion, this one is a little redundant. Arcane ghost STEP I:Undetectable alignment STEP II:Immune to anything that detect lies. STEP III:Spell resistance 10+class level against divination spells. Nice. Mechanic STEP I:Trapsense as a rogue. STEP II:You can designate a 5 foot square as a trap. This takes 10 rounds. Once a creature enters this square you can make a ranged touch attack, if you hit you deal assassinate damage (but nothing else). Using this ability expends one use of the assassinate ability. STEP III:When you have set a trap as outligned above it deals splash damage equal 1/4 the damage (rounded down) of the base assassinate damage to everyone within 5 feet of the trap. First one's okay, but I think the second one should have some kind of material cost to build the trap. I mean, the way it is an assassin could basically say "okay, I designate this spot as my trap and anyone who walks by goes dead". Step three is just cool. Organizer STEP I:Assassin levels count as bard levels for the purpose of bardic knowledge. STEP II:Leadership STEP III:You can use aid another as long as you have visual contact with your ally. While it's a good idea for a specialization tree, I just can't see anyone taking it with all of the others here. Trick of the trade Assassins pick up small tidbits of knowledge and skill wherever they go, and at level 3 and each 3rd level thereafter an assassin can chose one of the following benefits: +1 bonus to DC of poisons used [stacks with itself] +1 bonus to any one class-skill [stacks with itself] +1 bonus to will save [stacks with itself] +1d6 assassinate damage [stacks with itself] +5 feet base speed [stacks with itself] Decrease armour check penalty by 1 for a certain type of armour (chain shirt for instance). Can only be taken once for each armour type. Increase max dexterity bonus of a certain type of armour by 1 point. Can only be taken once for each armour type. A weapon type of your choice gains another damage type. For example you could make a shortsword deal slashing or piercing. This ability can be taken untill you have slashing or piercing or blunt. A weapon type of your choice gains a range increment of 10 feet. If it already have a range increment, it is increased by 10 feet. [stacks with itself] When using aid another to increase allies hit-rolles you provide an extra +2 bonus. You neither have to roll to see if you success when helpingsomeone to hit. [Stacks with itself] Trapsense +1 [Stacks with itself] Take 10 on any one of the following skills: Hide, Move silently, Disguise, Bluff, Sense motive, Survival, Listen, spot, diplomacy, intimidate, tumble, balance, jump. [can be taken more than once, each time applying to a different skill] Some of these abilities are definitely more powerful than others. Needs work, but it's a good idea. Morte totale When reaching level 20, creatures killed by the assassinate ability cannot be raised via any anything less than the true ressurrection spell. Not even a wish or miracle spell can restore such a creature. While I think it's pretty balanced for a 20th level character (20th level characters needing some uber-powerful ability and all) I don't think it makes much sense with an assassin that has next to no magical background. Yeah, I think the one thing you should keep to heart about making this class is that it's both a work and progress and a compilation of many brilliant ideas. All those ideas need a some honing in order to make a truly great assassin class.
unundindur 07-04-07, 10:51 AM	why does an assassin get improved unarmed attack? It is my feeling that assassins do not nessicarily master unarmed combat, but are not entirely cripled by the loss of their weapon either. I wnat to represent this by letting them get this feat, that virtually makes their unarmed strikes as dangerous as a dull dagger, but not more. It also allow them to use the assassinate ability unarmed, which I think is suitable (see Last samurai for an example). Regarding progression I have two options there, the grappling specialisation-tree, and the feat Ascetic assassin (at the bottom of the class). If you still find it wrong conceptually or balance-wise, my ear is open :) I like assassinate maybe give him it more like 2x per encounter at 10th and 3x at 20th but don't let him use it more than once on the same creature or only have it on the same creature. While I was tempted to do just that when I initially started I think that will be to powerful. At least combined with the assassin now beeing a fair-enough combatant. Unless I hear a scream for power (which I really don't expect) I will keep it to 1/encounter. trick of the trade's not bad but let them choose a bonus feat if they want also I'd make the will save Trick of the trade a choose an save and increase it by 2, make the extra assassinate damage +2d6, make it +10 ft for speed don't have it stack, put evasion, uncanny dodge and there improved versions in Trick of the trade. I wnated these abilities to be slightly less pwoerful than regular feats, which is why I don't want to grant feats etc. Assassinate damage might get a boost though. If 4d6 assassinate equals 1d6 sneak attack (my estimate) and sneak attack is roughly worth a feat, then 2d6 should be more in line with the other benefits. Thats all for know. Thanks for the feedback!
unundindur 07-04-07, 10:53 AM	Proficiencies Assassins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as with light armour. ---I dunno about all martial weapons. While the idea of a stealthy assassin sneaking around a castle with a greataxe sounds completely awesome to me, one would think that such an assassin would also be trained as a fighter (multiclassing). Perhaps its just me, but I visualize assassins as people who know how to wield all sorts of weapons, its just that they usually don't go about with a greataxe because it attracts attention. As long as its balanced i also try to let people create their concept without multiclassing. Multiclassing is for those times when you really want to mix different styles, like going all martial arts (monk/assassin), or really really combat (fight/assassin for feats). Since you like the idea of an assassin wielding a greataxe i think you are in my boat as far as concept goes. An assassin usewhat tools he have available, if there is an axe on the wall, use the axe, its bigger ;) Predict An assassin is trained at predicting the blows of his adversaries, and can evade blows ellegantly when not restricted by cumbersome armour. An assassin adds his intelligence modifier (if positive) up to a maximum equal his class level as an insightbonus to armourclass. This ability only works while wearing light or no armour, and is denied when caught flat-footed. ---Sounds good. Especially since it's dip-proof (Heheh. Pun). I hope so. Its virtually the only defensive ability of the class. Basic poison use An assassin never risk accidentally poisoning himself when applying or using poisons. ---The ability that every assassin needs. Yepp Basic unarmed training An assassin gains the Improved unarmed strike for free at level 1. ---Now this I'm not sure of. As it's generally more effective to kill things with a dagger than with your bare hands (except in the case of the monk), one would think that the assassin wouldn't focus on unarmed combat. If this ability is to be kept, there should be others at later levels that improve on it. Again it is my feeling that assassins do not nessicarily master unarmed combat, but are not entirely cripled by the loss of their weapon either. I wnat to represent this by letting them get this feat, that virtually makes their unarmed strikes as dangerous as a dull dagger, but not more. It also allow them to use the assassinate ability unarmed, which I think is suitable (see Last samurai for an example). Regarding progression I have two options there, the grappling specialisation-tree, and the feat Ascetic assassin (at the bottom of the class). If you still find it wrong conceptually or balance-wise, my ear is open :) Basic trapfinding Assassins are trained in the basics of traps and can find and disarm traps with a DC of 20+the assassins class level. The assassin still need to beat the normal DCs' to find and diarm traps. ---At first I was iffy about this one, it being a rogue ability and me believing firmly that rogues and assassins are very separate archetypes. But since it scales with the assassin's level, and because of the later ability to specialize in trapmaking, I think it's okay where it is. I like you, you react to abilities exactely the same way i as do, and as I hope others will. Assassinate 1/encounter An assassin can virtually kill creatures instantly when focused on the task at hand. As a standard action an assassin can add 2d6 points of damage per class level to a melee attack or a ranged attack within 30 feet, against a flat-footed opponent. The damage dealt is of the same type as the weapon it is delivered with. If the attack misses this ability is not used for that encounter. Assassinate can be used once per encounter. Anyone immune to sneak attack is also immune to the assassinate ability. ---I had to read over this a couple times, because the first time I missed the clause "against a flat-footed opponent". Even then though, I'm still not sure about it. The assassin PRC in the DMG has a similar attack that can only be used if the assassin spends a considerable amount of time observing his target. This Assassinate ability however, strikes me as something where the assassin can just point at this target and scream "BANG! You're dead". I'm over-exaggerating to make my point of course, but I'm pretty sure you still understand where I'm going with this. Yes...assassinate. This is the big and new one that I would expect to cause a lot of turmoil (which it actually have not...). Now I have treid to critique your version, and there I have in many ways also founded my reasons for this ability. The first point is that the assassin PRCs death attack is horrible in 2 ways. First it takes 3 rounds of concentration, which is a very long time in most situations (and should justify a very powerful ability), and secondly its based on saving throws that makes it absolutely useless at higher levels. What I wanted to do here is to make the ability more powerful (and limit it with an articficial 1/encounter), and secondly remove the long observation time simply to make it more play-friendly. When traveling with a group waiting those 3 rounds is a rare wait in my experience. In a full campaign I used death attack 2 times, simply because the other players didnæt find reason to wait. As you say it is in many ways a "BANG"-ability, at least agianst weak targets, but I still find that to be just what a class like this needs to justify its own existance. Many characters will still survive due to constitution modifiers. But as i said originally, I want this ability discussed from all angles, so I think its great that you have a bit of a different view :) Specialist Assassins specialise their training to acheive perfection in what they deem most useful. At level 3, and each third level thereafter an assassin gains a new ability. Each time the assasin can either improve one of his previous specialisations, or begin to specialise in a new field. ---Okay, let me make one thing clear. I LOVE this idea. And I probably would have had something similar for my own version of this class, had I possessed more than a handful of ideas for specialization trees. Oh, and while the text here says the abilities are gained starting at level 3, while in your code chart it has them starting at level 2. Which is it? its supposed to be level 2. And thank you for your love. Its the easiest way to let people create just "that" assassin they have always wanted without forcing people onto a spesific road. Stealth STEP I: No penalty to hide and move silently for moving at full speed STEP II:Take 10 on hide and move silently STEP III:Hide in plain sight ---Looks nice. Of course I have no idea if it'd be overpowered in an actual game or anything, but it looks nice anyway. This tree is sort of mandatory, as I assume many, perhaps most would invest in it to visualize their assassin. If anythign I hope to balance the otehrs against this one. Poisoning STEP I:Apply poison as a free action STEP II:Reroll poison damage STEP III:Add intelligence modifier to the DC of all poisons used. ---I think for STEP III the ability should add the assassin's Int modifier to the DC of any poisons he crafts himself, since intelligence really has little factor in how you actually apply a poison. Unless of course you accidentally poison yourself. But I guess assassins don't have to worry about that anyway. Hmm...while I see your point I think that complicates things a bit. I would as far as its possible avoid abilities that see little use, and require unusual applications (the craft skill comes to mind). from another point of view it could be rules that by knowing how to coat weapons most efficiently, and where to apply them to a victim could justify the int modifier. Thats at least what I though :) Grappling STEP I:Improved grapple STEP II:Earths embrace STEP III:when you maintain a pin you can automatically deal assassinate damage [blunt damage], this spends a use of assassinate as usual ---Flippin' sweet. Thank you. Perhaps change earths embrace for something a bit more unique and interesting? I don't know what that should be though.. Infiltration STEP I:Take 10 diplomacy, bluff and disguise STEP II:Half penalty for making a rushed diplomacy check STEP III:reroll diplomacy, bluff or disguise check 1/day ---Now this tree I think is great. The third ability could probably be replaced with something better (can't think of anything off the top of my head, though). yes, I think it should be replaced. Problem is that I cannot hit my head hard enough to get anything useful out of it... Suggestions are more than welcome! Protection STEP I:You gain blindsense 5 feet. STEP II:You can switch place with a willying ally within 5 feet as an immediate action 1/encounter. STEP III:Everyone within a 5 feet radius of you (inc you) take half damage from the assassinate ability. ---The first ability strikes me as being more powerful than the second. And I just don't understand the third one. Well, that is likely because I haven't quite written what I meant (I see now :P) The second ability is supposed to let you switch place with a nearby ally when he/she is attacked, thus taking the attack yourself instead. Wouldn't that make it more powerful than blindsense? And the last ability is supposed to let an assassin be the best at protecting others from assassins. Every ally iwthin 5 feet of the assassin takes half damage from enemies using hte assassinate ability. all in all this tree is supposed to be for the body-guard assassin. The type the king have nearby at all times, and entrust his life with (and who might be a traitor and all that). Acrobatics STEP I:You can use the tumble, jump and balance skills while moving at normal speed without penalty. STEP II:Take 10 on tumble, jump and balance checks. STEP III:Can charge through any terrain. ---Seems okay. I think this one is a bit to dull and could use a facelift, but I am again out of punch myself. Suggestions? Weapon specialist STEP I:Count assassin levels as fighter levels for qualifying for feats, and gain weapon focus (any one weapon) STEP II:Prescise strike: Int to damage (in addition to eventual strength) with the same weapon as you have weapon focus with. STEP III:You can use your designated weapon effectively under water, while grappling and you are immune to disarming and sunder attempts. ---The third ability seems a little powerful, but otherwise I like it. thank you, I wanted the assassin to be able to be a weapon specialist like none else (thus beeing the lithe version of the fighter). Perhaps its to powerful... suggestions as to what component of the ability to limit? or just create a completely new one? I admit he last ability was written in lack of a better idea :) Assassination STEP I:Reroll all 1's when using the assassinate ability STEP II:Add intelligence modifier to hit when using the assassinate ability. STEP III:The dice rolled when using the assassinte ability increases by 1 step. ---In my opinion, this one is a little redundant. Here I actually disagree with you. I think it should be possible to specialise in the raw use of the main ability. Although it might look like they are going to kill everything anyway that is not the case. Anything with a descent constitution could survive an assassinate attempt, and if unlucky many more could. As predictability is an assassins best friend I can envision assassins want to train to "ensure" their job, even though it might be redundant in many situations. At least I could play such an assassin. What I realice though is that I want to redo the first step due to complexity. Its time-consuming with re-roll abilities, especially when you roll 20+ dice... Suggestions appreciated. Arcane ghost STEP I:Undetectable alignment STEP II:Immune to anything that detect lies. STEP III:Spell resistance 10+class level against divination spells. ---Nice. Thank you. I am actually a bit biased about this one myself. One part of me wants to create a non-magical assassin while the other wants to have options for both lairs. Input on the issue is always appreciated. Mechanic STEP I:Trapsense as a rogue. STEP II:You can designate a 5 foot square as a trap. This takes 10 rounds. Once a creature enters this square you can make a ranged touch attack, if you hit you deal assassinate damage (but nothing else). Using this ability expends one use of the assassinate ability. STEP III:When you have set a trap as outligned above it deals splash damage equal 1/4 the damage (rounded down) of the base assassinate damage to everyone within 5 feet of the trap. ---First one's okay, but I think the second one should have some kind of material cost to build the trap. I mean, the way it is an assassin could basically say "okay, I designate this spot as my trap and anyone who walks by goes dead". Step three is just cool. Again this is simply because I want to simplify rules and make it time-efficient. Including a cost could though be a good idea. How much then? 50 gp per class level? That would at least scale somewhat with its power and the treasure of the assassin. I dunno. I have another problem here though... I want to have a 4th ability... the ability to use the assassinate ability on constructs. I so imagine a gnome assassin with the mechanic and grappling specialisations just jumping onto a golem and turning it of :P Organizer STEP I:Assassin levels count as bard levels for the purpose of bardic knowledge. STEP II:Leadership STEP III:You can use aid another as long as you have visual contact with your ally. ---While it's a good idea for a specialization tree, I just can't see anyone taking it with all of the others here. True enough. again i just want to give options, but options need to be viable so I guess this one needs a boost. What about throwing out bardic knowledge and let the organizer instead use aid another on as many creatures simultaneously as his int/cha modifier? combined with the trick of the trade that lets you give larger to-hit bonuses without rolling it could be quite a good team-leader... Trick of the trade Assassins pick up small tidbits of knowledge and skill wherever they go, and at level 3 and each 3rd level thereafter an assassin can chose one of the following benefits: +1 bonus to DC of poisons used [stacks with itself] +1 bonus to any one class-skill [stacks with itself] +1 bonus to will save [stacks with itself] +1d6 assassinate damage [stacks with itself] +5 feet base speed [stacks with itself] Decrease armour check penalty by 1 for a certain type of armour (chain shirt for instance). Can only be taken once for each armour type. Increase max dexterity bonus of a certain type of armour by 1 point. Can only be taken once for each armour type. A weapon type of your choice gains another damage type. For example you could make a shortsword deal slashing or piercing. This ability can be taken untill you have slashing or piercing or blunt. A weapon type of your choice gains a range increment of 10 feet. If it already have a range increment, it is increased by 10 feet. [stacks with itself] When using aid another to increase allies hit-rolles you provide an extra +2 bonus. You neither have to roll to see if you success when helpingsomeone to hit. [Stacks with itself] Trapsense +1 [Stacks with itself] Take 10 on any one of the following skills: Hide, Move silently, Disguise, Bluff, Sense motive, Survival, Listen, spot, diplomacy, intimidate, tumble, balance, jump. [can be taken more than once, each time applying to a different skill] ---Some of these abilities are definitely more powerful than others. Needs work, but it's a good idea. Yea, but i am not sure which, and how to work around it... Any help is appreciated. Morte totale When reaching level 20, creatures killed by the assassinate ability cannot be raised via any anything less than the true ressurrection spell. Not even a wish or miracle spell can restore such a creature. ---While I think it's pretty balanced for a 20th level character (20th level characters needing some uber-powerful ability and all) I don't think it makes much sense with an assassin that has next to no magical background. Exactly. I hate this ability. Help me redo it to make it feel less magical... The problem is that since raise dead/ressurrect are magical their counter have to be magical to make sense... But again, thanks a lot for your help and i look forward to your reply!
Schitzophrenia_Manifest 07-05-07, 12:13 AM	Gah...I'm all tapped out of ideas for now (so I guess as far as replies go, this isn't a good one), but I'll try to think of something tomorrow when I get the time. You don't mind if I shamelessly rip off your ideas for my own class, do you?
unundindur 07-05-07, 02:58 PM	Gah...I'm all tapped out of ideas for now (so I guess as far as replies go, this isn't a good one), but I'll try to think of something tomorrow when I get the time. You don't mind if I shamelessly rip off your ideas for my own class, do you? Rip all you want, I am happy to provide ;)
Ecureuil_Diabolique 07-05-07, 03:15 PM	Although I'm not sure about any of the balance, I love this Assassin class. I always love choices when it comes to class features, so the tricks of the trade and the specializations seem like great ideas. I also think that the assassination mechanics are nice. It should allow for assassins to have a good chance of killing their target without a save-or-die effect. Plus it depends on the assassin, not the target's fortitude. Can't wait for you to finish this up. Oh, and just a thought. Create a spellcasting specialization? Obviously it couldn't be too good, maybe use something like the Factotum's mechanics?
RobbyPants 07-05-07, 04:15 PM	I like the idea here, and I like that you didn't give it a full BAB and sneak attack progression. Just a couple design suggestions: The class seems a bit front-loaded. Perhaps some of the abilities could be spread out through the first three or four levels. There are several dead levels in the class. Pershaps something minor could be used to fill it in. I don't have any specific suggestions yet on what those should be.
Relic 07-05-07, 08:06 PM	Thank you. Perhaps change earths embrace for something a bit more unique and interesting? I don't know what that should be though.. Maybe have the assassin's size count as one size category larger for grappling purposes? Or the assassin can substitute his Intelligence or Dexterity score instead of his Strength score for grappling purposes? Infiltration STEP I:Take 10 diplomacy, bluff and disguise STEP II:Half penalty for making a rushed diplomacy check STEP III:reroll diplomacy, bluff or disguise check 1/day yes, I think it should be replaced. Problem is that I cannot hit my head hard enough to get anything useful out of it... Suggestions are more than welcome! Just tossing out ideas... maybe the ability to fascinate like a bard? Or suggestion... or even dominate. It could be explained as being so drawn into the assassin's you lose control of your mental functions, similar to hypnosis. Or even just force of will. "These aren't the droids you're looking for." Another idea could be a non-magical equivalent to Eberron's Changlings. The ability to shift features for disguise and infiltration. Give it a couple rounds to apply makeup and such and you can have the same effect without it having to be a supernatural or magical ability. Acrobatics STEP I:You can use the tumble, jump and balance skills while moving at normal speed without penalty. STEP II:Take 10 on tumble, jump and balance checks. STEP III:Can charge through any terrain. I think this one is a bit to dull and could use a facelift, but I am again out of punch myself. Suggestions? You could give the assassin a bonus either to AC or attack rolls as they tumble, cartwheel, and dance around their enemies. Assassination STEP I:Reroll all 1's when using the assassinate ability STEP II:Add intelligence modifier to hit when using the assassinate ability. STEP III:The dice rolled when using the assassinte ability increases by 1 step. Here I actually disagree with you. I think it should be possible to specialise in the raw use of the main ability. Although it might look like they are going to kill everything anyway that is not the case. Anything with a descent constitution could survive an assassinate attempt, and if unlucky many more could. As predictability is an assassins best friend I can envision assassins want to train to "ensure" their job, even though it might be redundant in many situations. At least I could play such an assassin. What I realice though is that I want to redo the first step due to complexity. Its time-consuming with re-roll abilities, especially when you roll 20+ dice... Suggestions appreciated. Maybe treat the assassinate ability as if it were empowered? Or add +1 to all dice rolls. And at higher levels you can increase it to +2 or treat it as maximized. Morte totale When reaching level 20, creatures killed by the assassinate ability cannot be raised via any anything less than the true ressurrection spell. Not even a wish or miracle spell can restore such a creature. Exactly. I hate this ability. Help me redo it to make it feel less magical... The problem is that since raise dead/ressurrect are magical their counter have to be magical to make sense... You can explain this ability with flavor. Maybe the assassin has discovered to kill with such skill and mastery that he actually disrupts the spirit of his target... disconnecting the soul from the very fabric of life. And only true resurrection is potent enough to bring the wayward soul back. After all, in our own lives, the mysteries of life and death are quite profound and anything very well might be possible.
unundindur 07-06-07, 04:05 AM	Although I'm not sure about any of the balance, I love this Assassin class. I always love choices when it comes to class features, so the tricks of the trade and the specializations seem like great ideas. I also think that the assassination mechanics are nice. It should allow for assassins to have a good chance of killing their target without a save-or-die effect. Plus it depends on the assassin, not the target's fortitude. Can't wait for you to finish this up. Oh, and just a thought. Create a spellcasting specialization? Obviously it couldn't be too good, maybe use something like the Factotum's mechanics? Thanks for the heads up :) Regarding spellcasting I want to avoid that, as I think that is why we have multi-classing. That said, the feat Practised assassin (found at the bottom of the original thread) allows a multiclassed assassin/[insert spellcaster] to continue his assassinate progression, and thus make such a concept viable.
unundindur 07-06-07, 04:07 AM	I like the idea here, and I like that you didn't give it a full BAB and sneak attack progression. Just a couple design suggestions: The class seems a bit front-loaded. Perhaps some of the abilities could be spread out through the first three or four levels. There are several dead levels in the class. Pershaps something minor could be used to fill it in. I don't have any specific suggestions yet on what those should be. Thanks :) I am not sure if you meant that you like that I gave it full BaB and no Sneak attack, or if you didn't see it having full BaB... :) It may be a bit front loaded, I am not sure if it is to much so. The idea from my side was at least that the initial abilities should be so minor that they really don't make a big difference. I have further tried to make the important abilities scale by class level, as to stop dipping for their sake alone. I am biased on this issue. The dead levels is definitively an issue, and one I have been looking into lately. As it is now I feel the class is reasonably balanced, which is also why I posted it pre-finish. I have been thinking about adding a "Equipment versatility" ability line to fill the gaps, that would give minor benefits to certain equipment groups (some taken from tricks of the trade). I am though not sure if that would be a bit to much, given that the class already have quite a number of abilities. Comments on the issue are appreciated.
the_narrator 07-06-07, 04:23 AM	Without going into too much detail (detail = lengthy respone = lots of typing errors for drunk ol' me), I really, really like this. Alot.
RobbyPants 07-06-07, 09:39 AM	Thanks :) I am not sure if you meant that you like that I gave it full BaB and no Sneak attack, or if you didn't see it having full BaB... :) I should have been more clear. ;) What I meant was that a lot of assassin and assassin-type base classes I see posted here have a full BAB progression and the standard rogue sneak attack (+1d6 every odd level). The only (semi) official WotC class I've seen like this is the Unearthed Arcana fighter variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) that gets sneak attack instead of bonus feats, and that class gets nothing else. So, basically what I was saying is I was glad to see this wasn't just a more combat oriented rogue, and that you took a different approach. :)
Ecureuil_Diabolique 07-06-07, 11:46 AM	Thanks for the heads up :) Regarding spellcasting I want to avoid that, as I think that is why we have multi-classing. That said, the feat Practised assassin (found at the bottom of the original thread) allows a multiclassed assassin/[insert spellcaster] to continue his assassinate progression, and thus make such a concept viable. I see, that works then. At the time I was thinking of that, but I wasn't sure because it was 2AM and I wasn't thinking completely. I'll take a close look at it and try to find some ideas for the special abilities.
High Octane 07-07-07, 06:33 AM	One thing about you bringing up disintegrate. The spell is only not overpowered because it has a save and is mitigated by spell resistance. Without that, the spell would be epic. By the time you are casting that spell, most things you will face will have ridiculous fort saves. Ever browse the monster manual? 90% of those creatures have fort saves as one of their "good" saves, and generally a high con modifier. If they dont, they will generally have a high touch AC. And a substantial percentage of whats left has spell resistance. Second, do not underestimate how important burst damage is. Clerics make damage done over time have less impact since they can heal them if they arent dead. This one shot will make them dead. Third, a rogue can just as easily get 1 sneak attack, but after that it becomes harder. They have to hide or flank, and if they flank, they are in melee range of something, and that something can rip them apart a lot easier than the fighter so it will probably try unless it has a 6 int or lower. This guy will, under several circumstances, 1 shot his target. And in many cases, that target is the only thing the group is facing. Lets take a few examples. Lets go with level 1, level 5, level 10, level 15, and level 20 as examples. Lets assume the assassin makes the shot since with a full BAB and the target losing dex bonus to AC, and the assassin knowing full well to plan this in advance, this will not be hard to manage, plus he gets to try again if he misses. Now lets see how much damage he racks up at these levels assuming average rolls, using a light crossbow as damage, and the +damage from the weapon appropriate for a player of that level. This is flat + damage, not from flaming, shock or whatever. Also assuming medium size. Subtract 1 for small. Level 1: 1d8 + 2d6 = 11.5 Level 5: 1d8 + 10d6 + 1 = 40.5 Level 10: 1d8 + 20d6 + 3 = 77.5 Level 15: 1d8 + 30d6 + 4 = 113.5 Level 20: 1d8 + 40d6 + 5 = 149.5 Now with The assassination damage from trick of the trade: (average 7 each time stacking) Level 5: 47.5 Level 10: 98.5 Level 15: 148.5 Level 20: 191.5 Now lets line up some equal CR encounters and how many hit points they have. On average Level 1: Regular Gnoll 11 Grimlock 11 Lemure 9 Wolf 13 Level 5: Troll 63 Dire Lion 60 Very Young Red dragon 95 Bearded Devil 45 Level 10: Bebilith 150 Fire Giant 142 Gray Slaad 95 Juvenile Green Dragon 168 Level 15: Old White Dragon 276 Horned Devil (Actually CR 16) 172 Level 20: Old Red Dragon 378 Balor 290 Pit Fiend 225 Tarrasque 858 So. At level 1, you have a very good chance of instantly slaying your target. Level 5, most of the time you will take out some 2/3 of their hit points, and in some cases may still instantly slay them with lucky rolls. At level 10 you still do well over half to anything, and you actually still can instantly slay some things with lucky rolls. At level 15 You arent TOO likely to instantly slay anything, but will still wipe out at least half their hit points. At level 20, you are still cutting 1/3 their hit points at least unless you are facing the Tarrasque. And people, these are sacks of HP type encounters, and many times the dangerous ones dont have so many hit points. Mind Flayer: CR 8, 44hp on average. 8th level assassin: 1d8 + 16d6 + 2 = 62.5 6th level assassin: 1d8 + 12d6 + 1 = 47.5 Now lets take a level 9 assassin who takes assassination speciality, and all tricks of the trade increasing the assassination damage. 1d8 + 1 weapon 18d8 from levels 6d8 from tricks 25d8 + 1 damage: Average 113 damage In that hit he could take out a sorcerer or wizard of/with: 13th level with 22-23 con (110.5 hp average) 15th level with 20-21 con (112.5 hp average) 17th level with 18-19 con (110.5 hp average) 20th level with 16-17 con (110 hp average) In one, reliable, repeatable if missed, attack with only average rolls, and no save or spell resistance that can be done in a surprise round. Also, this is without stacking damage onto the weapon, and the weapon will most likely have poison on it, probably the con dropping type. By the way, massive blows, every shot that does over 50 damage results in the target making a DC 15 fort save or dying from shock. On average the assassin will be doing that from 7th level on (without assassin spec or trick using) And after thats done he can simply use his ranged weapon for the rest of the fight. With full BAB he can still manage to do some damage and get reliable hitting going on.
Ecureuil_Diabolique 07-07-07, 01:16 PM	One thing about you bringing up disintegrate. The spell is only not overpowered because it has a save and is mitigated by spell resistance. Without that, the spell would be epic. By the time you are casting that spell, most things you will face will have ridiculous fort saves. Ever browse the monster manual? 90% of those creatures have fort saves as one of their "good" saves, and generally a high con modifier. If they dont, they will generally have a high touch AC. And a substantial percentage of whats left has spell resistance. Second, do not underestimate how important burst damage is. Clerics make damage done over time have less impact since they can heal them if they arent dead. This one shot will make them dead. Third, a rogue can just as easily get 1 sneak attack, but after that it becomes harder. They have to hide or flank, and if they flank, they are in melee range of something, and that something can rip them apart a lot easier than the fighter so it will probably try unless it has a 6 int or lower. This guy will, under several circumstances, 1 shot his target. And in many cases, that target is the only thing the group is facing. Lets take a few examples. Lets go with level 1, level 5, level 10, level 15, and level 20 as examples. Lets assume the assassin makes the shot since with a full BAB and the target losing dex bonus to AC, and the assassin knowing full well to plan this in advance, this will not be hard to manage, plus he gets to try again if he misses. Now lets see how much damage he racks up at these levels assuming average rolls, using a light crossbow as damage, and the +damage from the weapon appropriate for a player of that level. This is flat + damage, not from flaming, shock or whatever. Also assuming medium size. Subtract 1 for small. Level 1: 1d8 + 2d6 = 11.5 Level 5: 1d8 + 10d6 + 1 = 40.5 Level 10: 1d8 + 20d6 + 3 = 77.5 Level 15: 1d8 + 30d6 + 4 = 113.5 Level 20: 1d8 + 40d6 + 5 = 149.5 Now with The assassination damage from trick of the trade: (average 7 each time stacking) Level 5: 47.5 Level 10: 98.5 Level 15: 148.5 Level 20: 191.5 Now lets line up some equal CR encounters and how many hit points they have. On average Level 1: Regular Gnoll 11 Grimlock 11 Lemure 9 Wolf 13 Level 5: Troll 63 Dire Lion 60 Very Young Red dragon 95 Bearded Devil 45 Level 10: Bebilith 150 Fire Giant 142 Gray Slaad 95 Juvenile Green Dragon 168 Level 15: Old White Dragon 276 Horned Devil (Actually CR 16) 172 Level 20: Old Red Dragon 378 Balor 290 Pit Fiend 225 Tarrasque 858 So. At level 1, you have a very good chance of instantly slaying your target. Level 5, most of the time you will take out some 2/3 of their hit points, and in some cases may still instantly slay them with lucky rolls. At level 10 you still do well over half to anything, and you actually still can instantly slay some things with lucky rolls. At level 15 You arent TOO likely to instantly slay anything, but will still wipe out at least half their hit points. At level 20, you are still cutting 1/3 their hit points at least unless you are facing the Tarrasque. And people, these are sacks of HP type encounters, and many times the dangerous ones dont have so many hit points. Mind Flayer: CR 8, 44hp on average. 8th level assassin: 1d8 + 16d6 + 2 = 62.5 6th level assassin: 1d8 + 12d6 + 1 = 47.5 Now lets take a level 9 assassin who takes assassination speciality, and all tricks of the trade increasing the assassination damage. 1d8 + 1 weapon 18d8 from levels 6d8 from tricks 25d8 + 1 damage: Average 113 damage In that hit he could take out a sorcerer or wizard of/with: 13th level with 22-23 con (110.5 hp average) 15th level with 20-21 con (112.5 hp average) 17th level with 18-19 con (110.5 hp average) 20th level with 16-17 con (110 hp average) In one, reliable, repeatable if missed, attack with only average rolls, and no save or spell resistance that can be done in a surprise round. Also, this is without stacking damage onto the weapon, and the weapon will most likely have poison on it, probably the con dropping type. By the way, massive blows, every shot that does over 50 damage results in the target making a DC 15 fort save or dying from shock. On average the assassin will be doing that from 7th level on (without assassin spec or trick using) And after thats done he can simply use his ranged weapon for the rest of the fight. With full BAB he can still manage to do some damage and get reliable hitting going on. You've done a lot of work and shown it for us, and for that I thank you. One thing that comes to mind is that at early levels, it's going to wipe out any single creature encounters and severely lessen the threat of higher level encounters. But if you were going with the Assassin prestige class, once you got Death Attack wouldn't it be more effective at killing things than the Assassination ability from this class? I don't know, the save might be too little to be much of a threat, I haven't done the math.
bonethug0108 07-08-07, 01:22 PM	I think the point of the class should be to take out a target in one hit. If the dm was smart, he would throw multiple opponents at the group. The assassin can only take out one. That is how it should be. He is supposed to take something out in one hit. He is an assassin. After he spends his one attempt, he is much less effective in battle. He is likely wearing only light armor, and doesn't have many hitpoints. He would be much less effective than a fighter or a monk, or even a cleric after he spends his one attempt. If you want to limit it in some way, weigh the assassin's level versus the constitution score of what he is using his attempt on. I could think of a couple of ways: 1)For each point the monster's con score exceeds the assassin's level, the monster survives the attack with one extra hit point per point his con score exceeds it. 2)For each point the monster's con score exceeds the assassin's level, take away one die for the assassin's assassinate ability. The first guarantees that the monster survives, but will likely leave him with fewer hit points. The second one would likely leave him with more hitpoints, but only if the attack damage isn't greater than the monster's hitpoints(in other words, the second version means the monster can still die). I like the class as is, and I can't think of anything to say at the moment. This may be something I use soon.:)
unundindur 07-09-07, 10:23 AM	Maybe have the assassin's size count as one size category larger for grappling purposes? Or the assassin can substitute his Intelligence or Dexterity score instead of his Strength score for grappling purposes? good idea. Now I think I will make the abiltiy relate to the suffocation rules (have to check up on them first though). Your suggestion about int/dex on grapple checks is brilliant though. I have made a feat out of it instead, as it isn't spesifically assassin-oriented. Thanks :) Just tossing out ideas... maybe the ability to fascinate like a bard? Or suggestion... or even dominate. It could be explained as being so drawn into the assassin's you lose control of your mental functions, similar to hypnosis. Or even just force of will. "These aren't the droids you're looking for." I see what you mean, but I will try to avoid spell-simulating abilities too. Actually I think this tree is fine as it is now. I re-did a few of the abilities to make it more distinct and interesting. Another idea could be a non-magical equivalent to Eberron's Changlings. The ability to shift features for disguise and infiltration. Give it a couple rounds to apply makeup and such and you can have the same effect without it having to be a supernatural or magical ability. I simply allow disguise checks very quickly. That sounds logical to me at least. You could give the assassin a bonus either to AC or attack rolls as they tumble, cartwheel, and dance around their enemies. Actually I have found an interesting work-around to this now. I allow charging even without a stright line. For an assassin that should be quite a boon I believe. Maybe treat the assassinate ability as if it were empowered? Or add +1 to all dice rolls. And at higher levels you can increase it to +2 or treat it as maximized. I was toying with exactely these ideas at an earlier stage, but I found it to be to powerful. This may be the stuff for follow-up prestige classes. This tree is now a bit less focused on damage, which I think is good. You can explain this ability with flavor. Maybe the assassin has discovered to kill with such skill and mastery that he actually disrupts the spirit of his target... disconnecting the soul from the very fabric of life. And only true resurrection is potent enough to bring the wayward soul back. Yes, that was what I was thinking about too. Its just that it still feels a bit of a far-stretch. How do you by simply utilizing your weapon disrupt a spirit? That must have something to do with magic... After all, in our own lives, the mysteries of life and death are quite profound and anything very well might be possible. very true, but to me its still to far of a stretch :) Thanks a lot for your help.
unundindur 07-09-07, 10:24 AM	Without going into too much detail (detail = lengthy respone = lots of typing errors for drunk ol' me), I really, really like this. Alot. Thanks :) I should have been more clear. ;) What I meant was that a lot of assassin and assassin-type base classes I see posted here have a full BAB progression and the standard rogue sneak attack (+1d6 every odd level). The only (semi) official WotC class I've seen like this is the Unearthed Arcana fighter variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) that gets sneak attack instead of bonus feats, and that class gets nothing else. So, basically what I was saying is I was glad to see this wasn't just a more combat oriented rogue, and that you took a different approach. :) Thanks ;)
yeti1069 07-09-07, 10:51 AM	I think the class looks really cool, but is far too powerful at early levels: +4d6 damage at level 2? I really do believe that the observation requirement from the assassin PrC makes a lot of sense flavor-wise. Assassins, as I see them, aren't just people who are adept at killing stuff that pisses them off; they're like spiders, who sit and wait before striking. Yes, they should be able to kill with a single deadly attack, but not just anyone.
unundindur 07-09-07, 11:05 AM	One thing about you bringing up disintegrate. The spell is only not overpowered because it has a save and is mitigated by spell resistance. Without that, the spell would be epic. By the time you are casting that spell, most things you will face will have ridiculous fort saves. Ever browse the monster manual? 90% of those creatures have fort saves as one of their "good" saves, and generally a high con modifier. If they dont, they will generally have a high touch AC. And a substantial percentage of whats left has spell resistance. Yes, but that is as a spell, and one that you potencially could cast X number of times at higher levels. I still think the assassinate ability can be justified as it is the mail ability of the class, and have very limited use. Your observation also support the reason I found the death attack to be broken; no sane assassin would train to become the assassin PrC as its primary ability is useless in most circumstances. But lets get onto the numbers :) Second, do not underestimate how important burst damage is. Clerics make damage done over time have less impact since they can heal them if they arent dead. This one shot will make them dead. That is exactely the way I inteded the ability to work. In prolonged fights the assassin is virtually nothing more than a very weak fighter. The assassin shines in 1 on 1 combat where the assassin hold initiative. Third, a rogue can just as easily get 1 sneak attack, but after that it becomes harder. They have to hide or flank, and if they flank, they are in melee range of something, and that something can rip them apart a lot easier than the fighter so it will probably try unless it has a 6 int or lower. Well, considdering that we use a assassinate-optimized assassin later here we must compare it to a sneak attack optimized rogue. That means TWF, crippling strike and all the means in the world to boost sneak attack and attack rolls (brilliant energy?). Of course if they are in melee they can potencially get ripped apart, but there are so many ways to get sneak attacks now adays, that at higher levels its really just +damage without a qualifier (in my experience). Here is also another aspect that I wanted to get rid of, and that is build-dependant use. The rogue is in my mind problematic because its useless if not built well, and extremely powerful if built deadly. I see that as a flaw of the sneak attack-ability (I can go into that if needed). The assassinate ability is very stright forward, without number of attacks making any difference. This guy will, under several circumstances, 1 shot his target. And in many cases, that target is the only thing the group is facing. And that is where the assassin shines, much like a wizard shine against crowds. Pit the assassin against 10 enemies (of lower CR) and he will instantly be in severe trouble. Lets take a few examples. Lets go with level 1, level 5, level 10, level 15, and level 20 as examples. Lets assume the assassin makes the shot since with a full BAB and the target losing dex bonus to AC, and the assassin knowing full well to plan this in advance, this will not be hard to manage, plus he gets to try again if he misses. Now lets see how much damage he racks up at these levels assuming average rolls, using a light crossbow as damage, and the +damage from the weapon appropriate for a player of that level. This is flat + damage, not from flaming, shock or whatever. Also assuming medium size. Subtract 1 for small. Sure. While he can re-try the shot, it should be noted that his enemy have to be flat-footed, which I see as somewhat unlikely in later rounds. Level 1: 1d8 + 2d6 = 11.5 Level 5: 1d8 + 10d6 + 1 = 40.5 Level 10: 1d8 + 20d6 + 3 = 77.5 Level 15: 1d8 + 30d6 + 4 = 113.5 Level 20: 1d8 + 40d6 + 5 = 149.5 Now with The assassination damage from trick of the trade: (average 7 each time stacking) Level 5: 47.5 Level 10: 98.5 Level 15: 148.5 Level 20: 191.5 Now lets line up some equal CR encounters and how many hit points they have. On average Level 1: Regular Gnoll 11 Grimlock 11 Lemure 9 Wolf 13 Level 5: Troll 63 Dire Lion 60 Very Young Red dragon 95 Bearded Devil 45 Level 10: Bebilith 150 Fire Giant 142 Gray Slaad 95 Juvenile Green Dragon 168 Level 15: Old White Dragon 276 Horned Devil (Actually CR 16) 172 Level 20: Old Red Dragon 378 Balor 290 Pit Fiend 225 Tarrasque 858 So. At level 1, you have a very good chance of instantly slaying your target. Level 5, most of the time you will take out some 2/3 of their hit points, and in some cases may still instantly slay them with lucky rolls. At level 10 you still do well over half to anything, and you actually still can instantly slay some things with lucky rolls. At level 15 You arent TOO likely to instantly slay anything, but will still wipe out at least half their hit points. At level 20, you are still cutting 1/3 their hit points at least unless you are facing the Tarrasque. And people, these are sacks of HP type encounters, and many times the dangerous ones dont have so many hit points. Mind Flayer: CR 8, 44hp on average. 8th level assassin: 1d8 + 16d6 + 2 = 62.5 6th level assassin: 1d8 + 12d6 + 1 = 47.5 I still think this is appropriate. You may well take out your target in one hit, but if you don't you have a serious problem (given full assassinate specialisation). The mind flayer have always been "that" monster Now lets take a level 9 assassin who takes assassination speciality, and all tricks of the trade increasing the assassination damage. 1d8 + 1 weapon 18d8 from levels 6d8 from tricks 25d8 + 1 damage: Average 113 damage In that hit he could take out a sorcerer or wizard of/with: 13th level with 22-23 con (110.5 hp average) 15th level with 20-21 con (112.5 hp average) 17th level with 18-19 con (110.5 hp average) 20th level with 16-17 con (110 hp average) In one, reliable, repeatable if missed, attack with only average rolls, and no save or spell resistance that can be done in a surprise round. Yes. I have to stress that this is a wizard, with a d4 hit-die. Of course an assassin is efficient against the weakest enemies. I see this is the way it should be, assassins should be a mage's worst enemy. A barbarian can be quite a different match for the assassin. This support both fluff, logic and in my mind its not a balancing problem. Yes its a very much lower level assassin, but he still have to get to and hit the wizard, and the wizard is quite adept at avoiding just that. Also, this is without stacking damage onto the weapon, and the weapon will most likely have poison on it, probably the con dropping type. By the way, massive blows, every shot that does over 50 damage results in the target making a DC 15 fort save or dying from shock. On average the assassin will be doing that from 7th level on (without assassin spec or trick using) And after thats done he can simply use his ranged weapon for the rest of the fight. With full BAB he can still manage to do some damage and get reliable hitting going on. Yes, I don't try to say that the wizard if first hit is dead. He is. I just don't see that as a problem. The wizard is the king of other situations, and he is right to fear his worst enemy. And the assassin can deal normal damage with a bow afterwards, but nothing special. He doesn't have sneak attack, no feat-line to support his ranged combat and to low hit point to shield others. Thank you for showing the math on this subject, I really appreciate that :) I still don't think its a problem, but I will lower the trick of the trade extra damage to 1d6 per take, as I realize that it cannot be directly compared to sneak attack because instant death is a huge boon. I would love to hear more though, possibly how you would do this as it sounds you didn't quite like the way it was done now.
unundindur 07-09-07, 11:08 AM	You've done a lot of work and shown it for us, and for that I thank you. One thing that comes to mind is that at early levels, it's going to wipe out any single creature encounters and severely lessen the threat of higher level encounters. But if you were going with the Assassin prestige class, once you got Death Attack wouldn't it be more effective at killing things than the Assassination ability from this class? I don't know, the save might be too little to be much of a threat, I haven't done the math. In my experience the save DC is simply way to low to make it worthwile sitting for 3 rounds within deadly range of your target. Especially in a party-situation.
unundindur 07-09-07, 11:12 AM	I think the point of the class should be to take out a target in one hit. If the dm was smart, he would throw multiple opponents at the group. The assassin can only take out one. That is how it should be. He is supposed to take something out in one hit. He is an assassin. After he spends his one attempt, he is much less effective in battle. He is likely wearing only light armor, and doesn't have many hitpoints. He would be much less effective than a fighter or a monk, or even a cleric after he spends his one attempt. If you want to limit it in some way, weigh the assassin's level versus the constitution score of what he is using his attempt on. I could think of a couple of ways: 1)For each point the monster's con score exceeds the assassin's level, the monster survives the attack with one extra hit point per point his con score exceeds it. 2)For each point the monster's con score exceeds the assassin's level, take away one die for the assassin's assassinate ability. The first guarantees that the monster survives, but will likely leave him with fewer hit points. The second one would likely leave him with more hitpoints, but only if the attack damage isn't greater than the monster's hitpoints(in other words, the second version means the monster can still die). I like the class as is, and I can't think of anything to say at the moment. This may be something I use soon.:) Thanks a lot! And I will seriously look into your ideas. I work toward simplicity, which is one of the reasons I want to avoid this kind of rulings. If you use the class I would love to hear how it fares.
Ecureuil_Diabolique 07-09-07, 01:13 PM	In my experience the save DC is simply way to low to make it worthwile sitting for 3 rounds within deadly range of your target. Especially in a party-situation. Yeah, I suppose. I was just trying to figure out whether the prestige class would be better at just swooping in and killing the target. Still gets spellcasting to help it out though. Good work, can't wait to see more added to it. I like that you have the edit section at the end of your post because I'm keeping a copy on Word to look through it easier. I hate having to hit Sblocks and seeing those large pictures all the time.
JellyPooga 07-09-07, 08:05 PM	I haven't read most of the replies to this thread and I'm assuming that the Class presented in the first post is the current 'edition'. With that in mind...it seems a little too good. Don't get me wrong, I like what you've done a lot (especially the strategic use of the artwork) and can see where you were trying to go with it, but it just smacks a little too much of "I want Assassins to be better than everyone else" to me. Some of the abilities, particularly some of the 'Tricks of the Trade', are available at too early a level IMO... Perhaps if you limited them by level; perhaps in a 'Warlocks and their Invocations' style - i.e. Lump all the Tricks of the Trade, Specialist and Advanced Applications into one pool with Least, Lesser, Greater and Greatest catagories. You can't take Lesser until level X, can't take Greater until level Y and can't take Greatest until level Z. That way, characters can't cherry pick the best ones and must take a certain number of 'duff' abilities (by high level standards) before they can get the better ones - it's a pretty well tried and tested method of balancing factors in a class (notably: spells and, to a lesser extent, feats). I would also cut down on the number of Specialist abilities/Tricks of the Trade/Advanced Applications...getting something every level is all well and good, but what you've got at the moment is almost the equivalent of getting a bonus feat every level on top of full BAB and 6+Int skill points a level (do note that I say almost...I realise that it's not quite). As I say, I like what you've done...it just needs a bit of toning down if you ask me.
unundindur 07-11-07, 11:39 AM	I think the class looks really cool, but is far too powerful at early levels: +4d6 damage at level 2? I really do believe that the observation requirement from the assassin PrC makes a lot of sense flavor-wise. Assassins, as I see them, aren't just people who are adept at killing stuff that pisses them off; they're like spiders, who sit and wait before striking. Yes, they should be able to kill with a single deadly attack, but not just anyone. Back from a little festival now so its back to the boards :) First and formost I thank you for your interrest. Regarding the damage at low levels it is absolutely true that the assassin can yeald a tremendous amount of damage, to the point of likely killing any one creature in a hit. If that is problematic is another point. I for one don't see that as a problem, as the ability is based solely around hitting in the first round. If you miss you will have a hard time catching you enemy flat-footed at that level. Furthermore your attack bonus is not up to scratch against armour, and many creatures are immune to the ability. That said, i realise that the assassin is very very potent at that level, but I beleive it is of little consequence as a barbarian in rage (or a warblade) likely kill creatures in a hit too, and he can do it in consequent rounds. Thre is also the point that assassins are very weak defensively, and while they are more potent than fighters they cannot take the same level of beating, especially at low levels. Over to your second point I can agree to a point. Flavourwise it makes sense to a point, but after playing quite a number of assassins I have come to the conclusion that the ability needed a change. For a player character in a party, waiting 3 rounds to initiate an attack is nearly synonomous with never using the ability. This because the the attack is not potent enough to justify 3 rounds, because the party is very unlikely to be as good at going by undetected as the assassin and because the proup in many cases will grow inpatient and see that they cna take on the fight nonetheless. By making the assassinate ability easier to initiate, it will also come into play a lot more, and the player will get to act as an assassin on more occations, hopefully without going all out-of-wack. That is my opinion though, and as I try to show I have been thinking about these issues myself, but come to the conclusion that the current revision is more beneficial (as a whole) to the class than otherwise. But again, thanks for constructive critique :)
unundindur 07-11-07, 11:51 AM	By the way, I would appreciate feedback on the pricing of the items in the second post. I find item pricing to be hard, and especially with rather unique abilities. The Thief (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=883209) is also in need of some critique, to further help make it a viable, flexible, diverse and interesting class. Thanks a lot.
unundindur 07-12-07, 11:43 AM	I haven't read most of the replies to this thread and I'm assuming that the Class presented in the first post is the current 'edition'. Correct :) With that in mind...it seems a little too good. Don't get me wrong, I like what you've done a lot (especially the strategic use of the artwork) and can see where you were trying to go with it, but it just smacks a little too much of "I want Assassins to be better than everyone else" to me. Some of the abilities, particularly some of the 'Tricks of the Trade', are available at too early a level IMO... I want them to be best at 1 thing; instant damage. The reason for this have been outlined multiple times. Regarding tricks of the trade I would love to hear which you find to powerful at low levels. Perhaps if you limited them by level; perhaps in a 'Warlocks and their Invocations' style - i.e. Lump all the Tricks of the Trade, Specialist and Advanced Applications into one pool with Least, Lesser, Greater and Greatest catagories. You can't take Lesser until level X, can't take Greater until level Y and can't take Greatest until level Z. That way, characters can't cherry pick the best ones and must take a certain number of 'duff' abilities (by high level standards) before they can get the better ones - it's a pretty well tried and tested method of balancing factors in a class (notably: spells and, to a lesser extent, feats). I am hessitant to do that because I want cherry picking. That is the whole idea of choices here. I want balance to be in the actual abilities. As it is now you still can only get 2 Step3 abilities at most, which are supposed to be the best abilities. There may be issues where lower step abilities are better, and if you find that to be the case I would really like to hear about it, so that i can change it. As it is now its not to much of a differnece between the warlock progression and this system. I would also cut down on the number of Specialist abilities/Tricks of the Trade/Advanced Applications...getting something every level is all well and good, but what you've got at the moment is almost the equivalent of getting a bonus feat every level on top of full BAB and 6+Int skill points a level (do note that I say almost...I realise that it's not quite). Yes some of the abiliteis can be near equivalent of a feat, but as I see it that is compared to the lesser feats. There is a huge power gap between spesific feats and "a feat". If there are any spesific abilities you want changed then I would love to hear it. Furthermore this class shuld be seen in the context of classes like the warblade etc. which by only looking at them looks very powerful (Full bab, 4 skills, d12 hp, abilites and an attack near as deadly as the assassinate ability) All this said I note your oppinion, and look forward to spesific issues. I will also change the level you gain the various abilities, so you gain specialisations at level 3 (the suposedly most powerful), equipment versatility at level 2 (the suposedly least powerful) and tricks of the trade at level 4 (the moderately powerful). This implies you in total get 6 specialisations instead of 7, and you cannot vulitarily increase assassinate damagge untill level 4. As I say, I like what you've done...it just needs a bit of toning down if you ask me. I mostly disagree with this, but the change outlined above should help prevent some early level issues. And of course, thanks for the constructive critique :)
JellyPooga 07-12-07, 01:23 PM	:eek: To be honest, I was expecting a reply a bit more dismissive than that...the impression I got from the OP was that it was supposed to be more powerful than the standard Core classes and that's exactly what it is, so when I posted my "it's too powerful" stuff, I was expecting you to simply dismiss it as "that's not what I wanted to hear". Well, you live and learn. Anyways....specifically, there' a few things that I had trouble with and I didn't go into specifics before, but seeing as you've asked: 1)Assassinate: I'm a little unsure on how this is supposed to work. Is it; a)"Take a standard action to 'prepare' the attack, then next round make the attack with bonus damage" or is it; b)"Take a standard action to make an attack with bonus damage" The wording of the ability isn't entirely clear. Also, the ability appears to be automatic (i.e. no condition to perform, like Sneak Attack). Is this intentional? It seems a bit (as in minusculy) good and a bit...unrealistic(?)...I don't quite see how it works from a 'fluff' POV...it's not like Death Attack, where you're studying a foe or Sneak Attack where you're taking advantage of an opportunity. It is apparantly just adding damage...It needs a little clarification and possibly alteration to fit it (perhaps a Spot check, as a Free Action, vs. your targets AC or something similar)....Oops, scratch that, just been reading through some of the other posts to see if I've duplicated anything of what others have said and I too missed the "against a flat-footed opponent" bit. 2)Specialist ability: Some things seem out of place/power a)Acrobatics; Step II - Equivalent of a 10th lvl Rogue (with Int 16) ability @ level 6 (and whatever Int you want). b)Infiltration; Step II - same again. c)Organizer; Step II - Leadership for Free!!! The single most powerful feat in the game...for free...@ level 6....I also have trouble with rationalising this; Assassins are (in my mind) first and foremost solitary workmen. I don't see Assassins becoming exceptional leaders...good spokespeople; yes, social climbers; yes, leaders; not as a virtue of being an assassin. d)Stealth; Step II - same as (a) & (b) 3)Tricks of the Trade: My main problem with this is that it's a little abusable. over 20 levels, you gain 6 of them. That's potentially a +6 to the DC of all poisons you use, or +12 to a skill check, or indeed, another 6 skills you can automatically take 10 on. It's not so amazingly good that it would present a problem on its own, but combined with the other abilities of this class, I think it's definitely in need of moderation somehow. Aside from that, I'm pretty happy with it (I still wouldn't use it because of its blatant increase in power over the Core stuff...I'm in favour of lesser powered games myself, but each to their own). Looking forward to having a look at your Thief.
Ecureuil_Diabolique 07-12-07, 01:39 PM	c)Organizer; Step II - Leadership for Free!!! The single most powerful feat in the game...for free...@ level 6....I also have trouble with rationalising this; Assassins are (in my mind) first and foremost solitary workmen. I don't see Assassins becoming exceptional leaders...good spokespeople; yes, social climbers; yes, leaders; not as a virtue of being an assassin. Also a problem with this is that Leadership is an entirely optional feat and the DMG even states that a DM should think about whether the players have access to the feat. Given, this is a home-brewed class and goes with those same rules, but still.
unundindur 07-12-07, 07:45 PM	:eek: To be honest, I was expecting a reply a bit more dismissive than that...the impression I got from the OP was that it was supposed to be more powerful than the standard Core classes and that's exactly what it is, so when I posted my "it's too powerful" stuff, I was expecting you to simply dismiss it as "that's not what I wanted to hear". Well, you live and learn. Well, when I try to create a class and post it for help and views it would be very counter-productive beeing an ass ;) Anyways....specifically, there' a few things that I had trouble with and I didn't go into specifics before, but seeing as you've asked: 1)Assassinate: I'm a little unsure on how this is supposed to work. Is it; a)"Take a standard action to 'prepare' the attack, then next round make the attack with bonus damage" or is it; b)"Take a standard action to make an attack with bonus damage" B. It works very similar to sudden strike, but oncer per encounter and must stronger. The reasoning for the simple initiation is answered before. The wording of the ability isn't entirely clear. Also, the ability appears to be automatic (i.e. no condition to perform, like Sneak Attack). Is this intentional? It seems a bit (as in minusculy) good and a bit...unrealistic(?)...I don't quite see how it works from a 'fluff' POV...it's not like Death Attack, where you're studying a foe or Sneak Attack where you're taking advantage of an opportunity. It is apparantly just adding damage...It needs a little clarification and possibly alteration to fit it (perhaps a Spot check, as a Free Action, vs. your targets AC or something similar)....Oops, scratch that, just been reading through some of the other posts to see if I've duplicated anything of what others have said and I too missed the "against a flat-footed opponent" bit. As I have said before the reason for the simple initiation is for ease of play. I want something that actually comes into play often, and that still capture (some of) the assassin feel. I find the method currnetly in use to be the best compromise as of now. 2)Specialist ability: Some things seem out of place/power a)Acrobatics; Step II - Equivalent of a 10th lvl Rogue (with Int 16) ability @ level 6 (and whatever Int you want). Doesn't that ability give you 3+int skills to take 10 on? (I don't have the book here right now). And I still don't compare abilities in that way. I look on actual use, and taking 10 is in my oppinion more of a treat to the mind than an actual powerful ability. All it does is to ensure that you don't fumble in most cases. It doesn't grant a bonus, only allow you to take the average roll. But you never said anything like this either, so yes, it is equivalent to a 10th level rogue ability :) b)Infiltration; Step II - same again. c)Organizer; Step II - Leadership for Free!!! The single most powerful feat in the game...for free...@ level 6....I also have trouble with rationalising this; Assassins are (in my mind) first and foremost solitary workmen. I don't see Assassins becoming exceptional leaders...good spokespeople; yes, social climbers; yes, leaders; not as a virtue of being an assassin. Its a feat. That said, I agree with your assesment that a leader-assassin isn't a great leader because of his assassin-skills, but rather otehr factors. As a result I will change that step into something different (perhaps let aid another last for a while or something). Thanks for pointing that one out :) d)Stealth; Step II - same as (a) & (b) 3)Tricks of the Trade: My main problem with this is that it's a little abusable. over 20 levels, you gain 6 of them. That's potentially a +6 to the DC of all poisons you use, or +12 to a skill check, or indeed, another 6 skills you can automatically take 10 on. It's not so amazingly good that it would present a problem on its own, but combined with the other abilities of this class, I think it's definitely in need of moderation somehow. I don't see that as abuse, that is efficient choice. The poisons are absolutely powerful when combined with poison specialisation, but poisons are so insanely weak beforehand that I find this a neccesarry gain, to make poisons viable, at least to a poison-favouring assassin. Aside from that, I'm pretty happy with it (I still wouldn't use it because of its blatant increase in power over the Core stuff...I'm in favour of lesser powered games myself, but each to their own). Looking forward to having a look at your Thief. Thats nice to hear, and regarding the thief , he is already there waiting for you to find him (in my signature for example). Thanks, and if you have more on your mind; spill it :cool:
unundindur 07-12-07, 07:46 PM	Also a problem with this is that Leadership is an entirely optional feat and the DMG even states that a DM should think about whether the players have access to the feat. Given, this is a home-brewed class and goes with those same rules, but still. Will fix as outlined in the above post. Thanks anyway, and if you have more comments on this or the thief class I would love to hear it. :)
unundindur 07-21-07, 11:12 AM	Bump, to see if there are any more oppinions in either direction :)
Ecureuil_Diabolique 07-21-07, 11:15 AM	ITZ TEH BROKENZORZ! No, really though. It's for the more reserved gaming group, but I like it. Good job.
Waldo_di 07-22-07, 01:13 PM	Well balanced maybe remove trapfinding and put it in a Tree Like Trap Master level 1: Trapfinding and skill focus trap making Level 2: Add int. mod. to traps to find/disarm and to hit and DC of them Level 3: You can put your assassinate ability on a trap that requires a hit like a deadly arrow trap (you can only have one trap at a time with the assassinate ability on it.) Also I'd make the assassinate ability so that you can use it a minute later after. This would allow the Assassin to Attack his target and if still alive run away or hide than use it again.
IdealJudgement315 07-22-07, 05:57 PM	man i cant even try to change this let me just say that youve done a very good job on making an assassin class that focuses the character on actually being an assassin thank you for doing something like this and if you want a little more insight, then go ahead and look into a book called Swashbuckling Adventures Campaign Setting and check out what theyve done with their Assassin class yet again mate, Bravo
unundindur 07-23-07, 08:56 PM	ITZ TEH BROKENZORZ! No, really though. It's for the more reserved gaming group, but I like it. Good job. Hehe, thanks. When my setting of Eiir is getting further you will likely also see a lot of new customisation alternatives for this and the otehr classes. My various organisations will use alternate class features instead of prestige classes. Well balanced maybe remove trapfinding and put it in a Tree Like Trap Master level 1: Trapfinding and skill focus trap making Level 2: Add int. mod. to traps to find/disarm and to hit and DC of them Level 3: You can put your assassinate ability on a trap that requires a hit like a deadly arrow trap (you can only have one trap at a time with the assassinate ability on it.) Also I'd make the assassinate ability so that you can use it a minute later after. This would allow the Assassin to Attack his target and if still alive run away or hide than use it again. Well, I wanted to avoid that because that is the domain of the thief. Still the mechanic specialisation takes care of the offensive trapmaking. Furthermore trapfinding was added for fluffreasons mostly. A bit hard to assassinate someone when the simplest trap stops you :) The assassinate ability works almost exactely as you want it to. An encounter would be over when you sneak away (not the "I sneak over here for a second", but more like sneak away for a minute), so when you popp in back you have the ability loaded yet again :) And thanks :) man i cant even try to change this let me just say that youve done a very good job on making an assassin class that focuses the character on actually being an assassin thank you for doing something like this and if you want a little more insight, then go ahead and look into a book called Swashbuckling Adventures Campaign Setting and check out what theyve done with their Assassin class yet again mate, Bravo Thanks a lot! Its nice to hear people find my stuff useful/interesting. And on a side note, could you tell me a bit more about this setting you speak of :)
High Octane 07-23-07, 10:30 PM	Yes, I don't try to say that the wizard if first hit is dead. He is. I just don't see that as a problem. The wizard is the king of other situations, and he is right to fear his worst enemy. And the assassin can deal normal damage with a bow afterwards, but nothing special. He doesn't have sneak attack, no feat-line to support his ranged combat and to low hit point to shield others. Thank you for showing the math on this subject, I really appreciate that :) I still don't think its a problem, but I will lower the trick of the trade extra damage to 1d6 per take, as I realize that it cannot be directly compared to sneak attack because instant death is a huge boon. I would love to hear more though, possibly how you would do this as it sounds you didn't quite like the way it was done now. Simply put, my issue with assassinate is that it is simply unstoppable with minimal preparation. How does an assassin achieve flat footed after surprise round and after the initiative of the target has come and gone? Easily really. Invisibility can be used as a potion or spell by his friend. Blink, same deal, and it lasts for several rounds and the assassinate isn't used up until it lands. Not to mention feinting in combat. Improved feint means its a move action so it is repeatable every round you use the assassinate in. There are a myriad of spells and items and a few combat abilities that can accomplish flat footed if you are willing to put some token effort into it. Hell, greater invisibility is only a 4th level spell. The ability is not that bad, its the fact that it is so easily repeatable round after round until it succeeds. If the ability had a cooldown to be attempted again, say 1 minute (10 rounds) then it would not be nearly as bad. As an alternative, the assassin could have to make a spot check in order to find an "opening" in order to try again. Check based on the hit die of the creature he is looking at, or other factors.
Steidas 07-25-07, 05:47 PM	Feinting does NOT leave an opponent flat-foot, it denies his Dex bonus to AC (which is different). This class seems a little overpowered. It has some pretty good abilities from lots of prestige classes and the death attack... is better than any ability both at low-levels and higher levels. It's like a class that doesn't even need feats to be par to other classes... when that happens, it's definetly overpowered.
unundindur 07-27-07, 05:47 AM	Simply put, my issue with assassinate is that it is simply unstoppable with minimal preparation. How does an assassin achieve flat footed after surprise round and after the initiative of the target has come and gone? Easily really. Invisibility can be used as a potion or spell by his friend. Blink, same deal, and it lasts for several rounds and the assassinate isn't used up until it lands. Not to mention feinting in combat. Improved feint means its a move action so it is repeatable every round you use the assassinate in. There are a myriad of spells and items and a few combat abilities that can accomplish flat footed if you are willing to put some token effort into it. Hell, greater invisibility is only a 4th level spell. The ability is not that bad, its the fact that it is so easily repeatable round after round until it succeeds. If the ability had a cooldown to be attempted again, say 1 minute (10 rounds) then it would not be nearly as bad. As an alternative, the assassin could have to make a spot check in order to find an "opening" in order to try again. Check based on the hit die of the creature he is looking at, or other factors. Well I beleive that at the lower levels, you are hard pressed to get more than one, perhaps a few attempts. Invisibility is expensive and Streidas pointed out an important aspect of improved feint. When you start using invisibility etc. on a regular basis a rogues sneak attack starts getting back on the assassinate ability (multiple attacks), at which i would argue that the assassin is expected to deal assassinate damage once per encounter to be comparable to other classes. The intention is really that the assassin should deal his 1/encounter instant damage, the rest is really most for the fluff, to give a palyer a feeling of beeing an assassin. Number-wise the assassin needs to give his damage to be comparable to the wizard, rebalanced paladin etc. And last we also have the limit to all forms of prescicion based damage; immunity. There are so vastly many critters immune to this attack that it should be devastating when you can use it (let me assume you get to use it 80% of the time). Your suggested spot check is a valid option, but I still think its better to keep the mechanics as simple as possible, as long as it doesn't make the assassin too powerful, a topic I think we disagree on to a certain extent ;)
unundindur 07-27-07, 05:53 AM	Feinting does NOT leave an opponent flat-foot, it denies his Dex bonus to AC (which is different). This class seems a little overpowered. It has some pretty good abilities from lots of prestige classes and the death attack... is better than any ability both at low-levels and higher levels. It's like a class that doesn't even need feats to be par to other classes... when that happens, it's definetly overpowered. Although I hear everything you say, one line struck me as odd: "It's like a class that doesn't even need feats to be par to other classes..." Well, that sounds just the way it should be to me... Feats are for customization, the basics of a class is to make everyone generally balanced toward each other. When did the cleric need feats to be on par with anyone? And is that alone enough to make a class overpowered? Hardly. As I wrote initially this class in not to be compared with the basic fighter, but other classes (see original post). When you compare it to a magician, cleric, druid, rebalanced paladin etc. I think you will find that the assassinate ability is indeed powerful, but not unheard of in any way. And as a final note i have to say that it cannot be compared to the death attack of a DMG assassin. That mechanic is just horrible in every way, as I have outlined earlier in this thread :)
IdealJudgement315 07-31-07, 12:38 AM	Swashbuckling adventures is very interesting most of it is based around peoples own abilities, training, and hard work its compatible with the D20 system the setting itself is for the most part set in sumthing like the 1300s-1800s but in a fantasy sort of way gunpowder weapons do indeed exist, but this definetely does not discourage other ranged weapons or melee weapons for the most part the prestige classes in it are weapon styles(mostly fencing styles, but a thirdish of it is still other stuff including things like the Boar Spear and the Crossbow) its an all around great setting that has players get better mostly thru their experience and training rather than magic items also u will generally fight other people rather than ridiculous monsters I could keep going on about it but its much better if u take a look at it also look into a book by AEG called Feats