Post/Author/DateTime	Post
UberBanshee 01-15-04, 01:42 PM	I know that a lot of people have issues with the assassin, because the class is generally underpowered and it generally doesn't capture the feel of the fantasy classic. Also, the low skill points, along with the "challenged" bonus to saves vs. poison and worthless uncanny dodge abilities, make this a little desired class, even if the mystique almost makes it worth it...therefore, I will endeavor to fix this problem, and I ask for your input, along with any new assassin builds that you come up with. If it's related to assassins, post it here! Changes to the existing class: BAB: The Assassin may option to switch his BAB (full character lvl.) for a monk's Flurry of Blows BAB of equal lvl. at any time. Fists need not be used. This represents the Assassin's ability to send out a flurry of blows in order to dispatch a weakened target. Saves: Same. Hit Die: d8 instead of d6...they are a mite tougher than a rougue of equal lvl. Skill Points Per lvl.: 6+int mod. Not quite as skilled as their rougue counterparts, but they're no slouches. Spells: Spells are cast as if silenced and stilled, but only when the spell comes from the assassin's spell list. This ability may not be used in conjunction with spells from other classes. Death Attack: 12+ Assassin lvls + 1/2 Rogue lvls (round down)+int mod for DC. Add 1 for every hour that the assassin spends studying the anatomy of his victim (real studying, not just being in the vicinity), and for every 1 such hour (up to a maximum of the Assassin's class level), an extra round must be spent studying the victim for the bonus to take effect. This gives the assassin a moderately powered sneak attack with the option for extra power. Sneak attack, Hide in plain sight, & poison use: Same Uncanny dodge: Gone. Improved uncanny dodge is still there, but if the character already has it, he instead gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC. Save bonus vs. Poison: Outta there! Stealth beyond Compare: +1 hide and move silently at 2nd lvl. (up to +2 at 6th), and -1 to armor check penalties for skills (-2 at 6th). A friend in Death: At 10th lvl, the assassin may make death attacks against opponents he flanks, at the expense of life energy. The assassin loses 4 points of Con due to the almost inhuman speed that he must move at and the impact of tons of adrenaline he must subject himself to in order to perform this remarkable feat. Otherwise, death attack is made as normal, without study period. This ability can be used outside of battle as well, if the opponent is unaware of his presence, in order to save the 3 rounds of study. If Con is given and rounds are still taken, they are treated as extra rounds of study, above. These are my thoughts. I think that this does the assassin more justice, keeping his roguely status and allowing for power & story flavor. Tell me what you think, or post your own variations! I eagerly await input.
(Psi)SeveredHead 01-15-04, 03:49 PM	Originally posted by UberBanshee [B]I know that a lot of people have issues with the assassin, because the class is generally underpowered and it generally doesn't capture the feel of the fantasy classic. Also, the low skill points, along with the "challenged" bonus to saves vs. poison and worthless uncanny dodge abilities, make this a little desired class, even if the mystique almost makes it worth it...therefore, I will endeavor to fix this problem, and I ask for your input, along with any new assassin builds that you come up with. If it's related to assassins, post it here! Changes to the existing class: BAB: The Assassin may option to switch his BAB (full character lvl.) for a monk's Flurry of Blows BAB of equal lvl. at any time. Fists need not be used. This represents the Assassin's ability to send out a flurry of blows in order to dispatch a weakened target. They're the same - at least in 3.5 (aka "the monk doesn't suck anymore" edition). Saves: Same. Hit Die: d8 instead of d6...they are a mite tougher than a rougue of equal lvl. Why? An assassin kills by stealth. He's not supposed to fight toe-to-toe. Spells: Spells are cast as if silenced and stilled, but only when the spell comes from the assassin's spell list. This ability may not be used in conjunction with spells from other classes. This is one of the things I don't like about about the assassin class. I'm not sure why death attack and spellcasting come in the same package. Death Attack: 13+ Assassin lvls + 1/2 Rogue lvls (round down)+int mod for DC. Add 1 for every hour that the assassin spends studying the anatomy of his victim (real studying, not just being in the vicinity), and for every 1 such hour, an extra round must be spent studying the victim for the bonus to take effect. This gives the assassin a moderately powered sneak attack with the option for extra power. This is much more powerful than the original. In any event I believe killing someone in one blow should require more skill than stunning someone in one blow, so I would tweak it like this: 2nd-level: Death attack (stunning blow). 10th-level: Epitome of death attack (actual death). I would also be careful about the studying giving unlimited bonuses to the save DC. Well, not unlimited, but it should probably be capped by level (eg there's no point of studying your target for over 3 hours if you're only a 3rd-level assassin) because otherwise people can abuse it. [qote]Sneak attack, Hide in plain sight, & poison use: Same[/quote] I like two of these: the ones that belong to classic assassins. I don't know where Hide in Plain Sight is supposed to come from. It doesn't fit, IMO. Uncanny dodge: Gone. Improved uncanny dodge is still there, but if the character already has it, he instead gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC. This is cool. Servant of the Reaper: At 10th lvl, the assassin may make death attacks against opponents he flanks, at the expense of life energy. The assassin loses 1 HP per character lvl. as an offering (cuts self and lets blood run) to the spirits of death. Otherwise, death attack is made as normal, without study period. This ability can be used outside of battle as well, if the opponent is unaware of his presence, in order to save the 3 rounds of study. If blood is given and rounds are still taken, they are treated as extra rounds of study, above. To be an assassin you make an offering to the spirits of death? Every assassin is different, they're not all Bhaal-worshippers.
KaFKaSiC 01-15-04, 03:57 PM	as was said before, spellcasting and death attacks in the same class is kinda generic... i had split the assasin into two (spellcasting and the classic death-by-blade assasin) dont have the papers on me here at work, but when i get home (and have some time, hopefully) i'll post what i came up with. and about the death attack being broken: look at the mediocre DC, pal. most assasins are lucky to have DCs over twenty...
UberBanshee 01-15-04, 04:56 PM	I'm not trying to cut anyone down here, but I just wanted to clarify some things. A) The Assassin gets the Flurry of Blows BAB...this gives them extra attacks at the expense of accuracy. I like the idea of an assassin not being a big damage dealer, but he can dish out a lot of strikes very quickly. B) I do think that the bonus DC should be capped by level. I will change that soon. However, I have balanced the DC (did lower the base 13 to 12, though). Look at it. Assuming a standard assassin is attacking a standard Elf Fighter (which would give him about average Fort save considering weakened constitution) and both are at lvl 13. The assassin is a Rogue 5/Assassin 8 and the Fighter is a pure, 13th lvl fighter. Assuming 12 Con (generous, for an elf), the fighter would have a total fort save (now I'm using the tables in the DMG for NPCs) of +9. The assassin's death attack DC would be (12 (average) +2 (rogue, rounded down) + 8 (assassin) + 1 (Int)) 23. That means that the Fighter would have to roll a 14 or greater (barring miscellaeneous effects). I think that this is completely fair. If an assassin gets the drop on you, you should have to be a little lucky in order to avoid death. Now, there are other levels where the ratio is lower/higher for the save. That would be one of the high ones. At 6th lvl, the Fighter would have to roll 11 or better; that's an almost half chance of success on a guy who's been trained to kill anyone! C) I think that assassins, though they kill by stealth, are a salty bunch, and should be just a wee bit tougher than their rogue counterparts. What if their victim gets back up? Then they're practically screwed! D) I think that the assassin, while not true to the stereotype, is very cool with support spells. I always want to play a guy who is quick, silent, deadly, and can use magic to supplement his abilities. Now the assassin fills that role. E) I can see your point, but I never said anything about Gods of death. Spirits, or just their own psychology, is more like it. I would like to keep the ability around, though. Any ideas as to how to change it to keep it out of the worshiper bracket? Oh, and I'm also considering a dodge bonus to AC equal to Int mod...making a very nimble assassin is always a good idea. I'm not sure if it will fly, though, in the balance department, and may end up eliminating the Stealth beyond compare in order to pull it off. Well, that's all I have to say about that. I'm not getting on your case, again, but I think it might be good if, even if you don't agree with me, you at least see where I'm coming from. I'll now go ahead and edit the original post. Banshee
KaFKaSiC 01-15-04, 08:47 PM	the int bonus to AC is kinda broken, even though i do see your logic behind it... according to the paper i have on the blade version of assasin, he attacks just like the monk's flurry (guess we had the same idea :D) his saves were more or less left alone, sneak attack progression stayed the same, and the skills went up at 8+int modifier. his death attack turned into improved death attack (which gave him the ability to use ranged weapons like throwing daggers for death attacks, as well as adding a +2 to the DC) at level five, and at tenth level, he got perfected death attack (which gave him an addtional +3 to the DC and he only had to study for one round, and it was usable by most ranged weapons) at level 6 he got a +10 to base speed, and instead of the save Vs. poison, he got a progressive +2 to hide and move silently... this is all out of memory, since im only looking at a character sheet...
UberBanshee 01-17-04, 06:46 PM	I would still love to see some more input on this...no one has even mentioned balance as far as the changes I've proposed for the Assassin PrC. Input, please? Thanks in advance. :bump:
KaFKaSiC 01-18-04, 12:18 AM	:bump: i tried going over the assasin in many different ways, but still nothing that keeps them balanced. maybe its just me trying to make a PrC that can actually be compared to a pure core class. though i havent tried going the "spiitual" assasin yet...
TsuDhoNimh 01-22-04, 08:19 PM	Instead of making the Death Attack all or nothing, (I really think DnD has enough save or die abilities anyway) why not make it do triple the assassin's total sneak attack dice, 1/2 if save is successful? Then the attack is still better than a regular sneak attack even if the save is made, but not insanely better.
Drizzt69 01-23-04, 07:50 AM	Assassin would be fine if you made an improved death attack that allowed the assassin to study an oponent an extra round if he wishes. If he does then even if that monster is immune to critical hits the death attack still kills him if he fails his save.
UberBanshee 01-23-04, 05:10 PM	I DO like the idea of some multiple of the Sneak attack for the Death attack, but I'm not sure how to make sure it's balanced. Depending on the creature, it could be instant death or just a deep wound. Still, there is the 50 pt. extreme damage cap that would make it hard to survive. In a game I played last night, my first level rogue did 19 damage with a sneak attack, which is near half of that. Anyways... Drizzt69, you have confused me? What do you mean by: "Assassin would be fine if you made an improved death attack that allowed the assassin to study an oponent an extra round if he wishes. If he does then even if that monster is immune to critical hits the death attack still kills him if he fails his save." The part about the monster being immune and still dying especially confuses me.
-Defiler of Souls- 01-24-04, 02:14 AM	Originally posted by UberBanshee I know that a lot of people have issues with the assassin, because the class is generally underpowered and it generally doesn't capture the feel of the fantasy classic. Also, the low skill points, along with the "challenged" bonus to saves vs. poison and worthless uncanny dodge abilities, make this a little desired class, even if the mystique almost makes it worth it...therefore, I will endeavor to fix this problem, and I ask for your input, along with any new assassin builds that you come up with. If it's related to assassins, post it here! Changes to the existing class: BAB: The Assassin may option to switch his BAB (full character lvl.) for a monk's Flurry of Blows BAB of equal lvl. at any time. Fists need not be used. This represents the Assassin's ability to send out a flurry of blows in order to dispatch a weakened target. doesnt make sense, and is too good first it doesnt make sense because an assasin should be all about accuracy not random blows, also its a toe to toe melee oriented machanic that simply doesnt belong second its too good since this would allow duel wielding WHILE getting 5 attacks with main hand, allowing a player to do as well in melee(if not better due to sneak attacks while flanking, and ability to duel wield while flurrying) as a monk, AND to sneak attack better then a rogue(2 more attacks) Saves: Same. k Hit Die: d8 instead of d6...they are a mite tougher than a rougue of equal lvl. doesnt belong d8 is for the "dexterous warrior" assasin is a silent sneaky killer not a dexterous tank Skill Points Per lvl.: 6+int mod. Not quite as skilled as their rougue counterparts, but they're no slouches. once again doesnt belong, the only skills the assasin really needs are sneak and hide, theres no reason they should be social kings like rogues(which is ultimately the goal of high skill points) Spells: Spells are cast as if silenced and stilled, but only when the spell comes from the assassin's spell list. This ability may not be used in conjunction with spells from other classes. thats just too good, as people said before the spells already dont make sense for the assasin and this mechanic would be just overpowered since not only would all you spells be metamagiced without increasing level, you effectively gain 2 feats Death Attack: 12+ Assassin lvls + 1/2 Rogue lvls (round down)+int mod for DC. Add 1 for every hour that the assassin spends studying the anatomy of his victim (real studying, not just being in the vicinity), and for every 1 such hour (up to a maximum of the Assassin's class level), an extra round must be spent studying the victim for the bonus to take effect. This gives the assassin a moderately powered sneak attack with the option for extra power. saves way too high for a death eefect, its good as it i, basicly for death effects you never want it to be higher then 20+key ability score Sneak attack, Hide in plain sight, & poison use: Same k Uncanny dodge: Gone. Improved uncanny dodge is still there, but if the character already has it, he instead gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC. k Save bonus vs. Poison: Outta there! k Stealth beyond Compare: +1 hide and move silently at 2nd lvl. (up to +2 at 6th), and -1 to armor check penalties for skills (-2 at 6th). good A friend in Death: At 10th lvl, the assassin may make death attacks against opponents he flanks, at the expense of life energy. The assassin loses 4 points of Con due to the almost inhuman speed that he must move at and the impact of tons of adrenaline he must subject himself to in order to perform this remarkable feat. Otherwise, death attack is made as normal, without study period. This ability can be used outside of battle as well, if the opponent is unaware of his presence, in order to save the 3 rounds of study. If Con is given and rounds are still taken, they are treated as extra rounds of study, above. this isnt overpowered, though inhuman bursts speed doesn't really seem to be how i'd imagine an assasin...id think more of a cool calculated attitude followed by effecient decisive action These are my thoughts. I think that this does the assassin more justice, keeping his roguely status and allowing for power & story flavor. Tell me what you think, or post your own variations! I eagerly await input. will i agree that the assasin class isnt nearly as cool as it should be, your changes were mostly unbalancing and too good. i'd say right now the old assasin is viable balance wise(ie the death effect+the spells+hide in plain sight+poisin use is enough of a gain to decently counterbalce to the loss of the rogue special abilities) what the assasin class needs isnt really alot more power but some more interesting mechanics and better flavor abilities