Assassins & Arcane Spell Failure [Archive] - Wizards Community

Assassins & Arcane Spell Failure [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Raven Dark
06-20-05, 04:39 PM Do Assassins have to deal with Arcane Spell Failure Chance when wearing armor?

The PrC doesn't specifically say it, but it does state they cast spells like a Bard. Should I take this to mean that they suffer no penalty in light armor?

Do they have to deal with it at all?

The ambiguity hurts my head.
Count Arioch the 28th
06-20-05, 04:42 PM The general consensus is that they cast spells as a bard, which means that they ignore ASF when wearing light armor.

However, an odd side effect of that line of thinking is that they cannot apply silent spell to their magic. Which is odd to say the least.

I would rule that they ignore ASF in light armor, and can apply silent spell to their spells if they choose.
Steelgryphon
06-20-05, 04:43 PM The PrC doesn't specifically say it, but it does state they cast spells like a Bard. Should I take this to mean that they suffer no penalty in light armor?

Oh, the rules dont say i CANT kill the lich great wrum dragon king in 1 hit, so i must be able to do it.

If the rules dont state it, you treat it like any other class that dosent specifically say that it isnt differnt, you treat it like somthing else as writen (eg wizard in this case) so yes they suffer from ASF
Count Arioch the 28th
06-20-05, 06:36 PM Oh, the rules dont say i CANT kill the lich great wrum dragon king in 1 hit, so i must be able to do it.

If the rules dont state it, you treat it like any other class that dosent specifically say that it isnt differnt, you treat it like somthing else as writen (eg wizard in this case) so yes they suffer from ASF

Except it says that assassins cast spells as a BARD, not a WIZARD. Therefore, ASF does not apply from light armor, it's not hard. It specifically allows light armor with no ASF with no room for disagreement. The issue is whether an assassin can use silent spell. They should, but the rules say they can't.

Edit: Incidentally, I can think of several ways to kill the "lich great wyrm dragon king" in one hit. For example, a weapon of disruption or a disintegrate spell. It's not hard.
Steelgryphon
06-20-05, 08:07 PM I thought they cast as a sorcerer. The wizard was the firs ASF class that sprang to mind. And im sorry for sounding up in your face, i was having a bad day.

Also, let me reafirm my Lich Great Wyrm Dragon statement.

Kill him with a half pound block of swiss cheese thrown at its side
Count Arioch the 28th
06-20-05, 08:18 PM Hey, we all have our bad days, no worries. :P
Particle_Man
06-20-05, 09:48 PM The trend in 3.5 is to have all classes that use light armour and cast arcane spells to gain the ability to do so without ASF. (Bard, Warlock, Hexblade, etc.) thus I would allow the assassin to as well, especially since it says "they cast like a bard". It would not unbalance the game, anyhow.

Otherwise, the assassin is better taking the Arcane Strike feat.
Rulebook
06-20-05, 11:04 PM A bard can cast bard spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance.
An assassin casts spells just as a bard does.

both quotes are pulled from the SRD and make it pretty clear.
runestar
06-20-05, 11:45 PM Are they supposed to sing to cast their spells as well?
Wyrd Bearer
06-21-05, 12:34 AM Are they supposed to sing to cast their spells as well?

I believe that they wouldn't. At the time, the only core class that could ignore ASF in light armour was the bard, so they referenced something that everyone was familiar with to save the time and effort of printing that an assassin can cast without ASF in light armour. If they had just gone through the oh so bothersome effort of outright saying that an assassin cast cast without ASF in light armour this wouldn't be an issue.

I also suppose that if a DM was a huge rules lawyer, then yes, the assassin would be required to sing and dance to cast its spells. But that makes no sense for a class that specializes in silent and stealthy killing. This can be fixed with a little common sense, but then again, since when does common sense have any bearing on what the rules say? ;) :P
Rulebook
06-21-05, 01:03 PM first off... why does everybody assume that the "all bard spells have a verbal component" to automatically mean "a bard has to sing his fool head off at the top of his lungs so everyody ina 10 mile radius can hear him"?

you know they can WHISPER a small amount of REGULAR WORDS to accomplish this right? that is within the realms of VERBAL you know...
Tusz
06-21-05, 01:16 PM you know they can WHISPER a small amount of REGULAR WORDS to accomplish this right? that is within the realms of VERBAL you know...

To cast a spell with a verbal component, your character must speak in a firm voice.
I interpret that to mean you can't whisper-cast a spell. I don't know any official rulings on this, though.
Raven Dark
06-21-05, 01:24 PM I interpret that to mean you can't whisper-cast a spell. I don't know any official rulings on this, though.

I suppose it could be a firmly voiced whisper.
Wyrd Bearer
06-21-05, 01:26 PM Casting a spell with verbal components means that you must say the words IN A GRAND SWEEPING VOICE, loud enough that it is DC 0 check to hear someone casting a spell. I believe there is a feat where you can whisper the components, no wait, I believe that in races of stone you can use slight of hand or some other skill to try to cast your spell real subtly and this included the verbal components. Course you can just eliminate the verbal component entirely with the silent spell feat, given the opponent no chance of over hearing the casting. Unless of course you're a bard, then you'll need to either use the disguise spell feat or attempt a slight of hand check.
Rulebook
06-21-05, 01:35 PM firm dosent mean loud, it means unwavering determination. you cant half-ass magic, but you can do it quietly if you need to.

otherwise, try to do a Rammstein voice, thats about the sound level you need. give or take.
tarkin
06-21-05, 03:36 PM Officially, to cast spells, you need to use a voice hearable on a DC 0 Listen check.

So techinically, I guess that could be a Whisper, but it would be a very LOUD whisper.
Raven Dark
06-21-05, 06:52 PM Officially, to cast spells, you need to use a voice hearable on a DC 0 Listen check.

So techinically, I guess that could be a Whisper, but it would be a very LOUD whisper.

Where, officially, does it say you need a voice equivalent to a DC 0 listen check?

God, I hope its not a splat book. The whole point of splat books is to be an optional supplement, not to set new "official" rules. That is what the Eratta is for.
Wyrd Bearer
06-21-05, 08:14 PM I forget exactly where it says that, but both tarkin's and my own memories are in agreement here. If I can recall from what I am remembering this, I will post it if not beaten to the punch.
Raven Dark
06-21-05, 08:14 PM Casting a spell with somatic components means that you must say the words IN A GRAND SWEEPING VOICE, loud enough that it is DC 0 check to hear someone casting a spell. I believe there is a feat where you can whisper the components, no wait, I believe that in races of stone you can use slight of hand or some other skill to try to cast your spell real subtly and this included the verbal components. Course you can just eliminate the verbal component entirely with the silent spell feat, given the opponent no chance of over hearing the casting. Unless of course you're a bard, then you'll need to either use the disguise spell feat or attempt a slight of hand check.

Don't you mean VERBAL components?
Wyrd Bearer
06-21-05, 09:04 PM Perhaps. ;)
Vaelan
06-21-05, 09:08 PM The Bard's ability to ignore spell failure from light armor is stated in their Weapon and Armor Proficiency entry. One could say that the ability to cast in light armor is not part of a Bard's spellcasting based on that.

Personally, I think the Assassin needing verbal components isn't quite right, so I am inclined to believe that "casting spells as a Bard" just means that Assassins do not need to prepare their spells ahead of time (and thus do not require verbal components and have to deal with ASF).
Nephlite
06-21-05, 09:10 PM Where, officially, does it say you need a voice equivalent to a DC 0 listen check?

God, I hope its not a splat book. The whole point of splat books is to be an optional supplement, not to set new "official" rules. That is what the Eratta is for.

SRD isn't a splat book:

LISTEN (WIS)
Check: Your Listen check is either made against a DC that reflects how quiet the noise is that you might hear, or it is opposed by your target's Move Silently check.

Listen DC Sound
–10 A battle
0 People talking1
5 A person in medium armor walking at a slow pace (10 ft./round) trying not to make any noise.
10 An unarmored person walking at a slow pace (15 ft./round) trying not to make any noise
15 A 1st-level rogue using Move Silently to sneak past the listener
15 People whispering1
19 A cat stalking
30 An owl gliding in for a kill
1 If you beat the DC by 10 or more, you can make out what's being said, assuming that you understand the language.

Listen DC Modifier Condition
+5 Through a door
+15 Through a stone wall
+1 Per 10 feet of distance
+5 Listener distracted

In the case of people trying to be quiet, the DCs given on the table could be replaced by Move Silently checks, in which case the indicated DC would be their average check result.

First half of Listen.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Raven Dark 06-20-05, 04:39 PM	Do Assassins have to deal with Arcane Spell Failure Chance when wearing armor? The PrC doesn't specifically say it, but it does state they cast spells like a Bard. Should I take this to mean that they suffer no penalty in light armor? Do they have to deal with it at all? The ambiguity hurts my head.
Count Arioch the 28th 06-20-05, 04:42 PM	The general consensus is that they cast spells as a bard, which means that they ignore ASF when wearing light armor. However, an odd side effect of that line of thinking is that they cannot apply silent spell to their magic. Which is odd to say the least. I would rule that they ignore ASF in light armor, and can apply silent spell to their spells if they choose.
Steelgryphon 06-20-05, 04:43 PM	The PrC doesn't specifically say it, but it does state they cast spells like a Bard. Should I take this to mean that they suffer no penalty in light armor? Oh, the rules dont say i CANT kill the lich great wrum dragon king in 1 hit, so i must be able to do it. If the rules dont state it, you treat it like any other class that dosent specifically say that it isnt differnt, you treat it like somthing else as writen (eg wizard in this case) so yes they suffer from ASF
Count Arioch the 28th 06-20-05, 06:36 PM	Oh, the rules dont say i CANT kill the lich great wrum dragon king in 1 hit, so i must be able to do it. If the rules dont state it, you treat it like any other class that dosent specifically say that it isnt differnt, you treat it like somthing else as writen (eg wizard in this case) so yes they suffer from ASF Except it says that assassins cast spells as a BARD, not a WIZARD. Therefore, ASF does not apply from light armor, it's not hard. It specifically allows light armor with no ASF with no room for disagreement. The issue is whether an assassin can use silent spell. They should, but the rules say they can't. Edit: Incidentally, I can think of several ways to kill the "lich great wyrm dragon king" in one hit. For example, a weapon of disruption or a disintegrate spell. It's not hard.
Steelgryphon 06-20-05, 08:07 PM	I thought they cast as a sorcerer. The wizard was the firs ASF class that sprang to mind. And im sorry for sounding up in your face, i was having a bad day. Also, let me reafirm my Lich Great Wyrm Dragon statement. Kill him with a half pound block of swiss cheese thrown at its side
Count Arioch the 28th 06-20-05, 08:18 PM	Hey, we all have our bad days, no worries. :P
Particle_Man 06-20-05, 09:48 PM	The trend in 3.5 is to have all classes that use light armour and cast arcane spells to gain the ability to do so without ASF. (Bard, Warlock, Hexblade, etc.) thus I would allow the assassin to as well, especially since it says "they cast like a bard". It would not unbalance the game, anyhow. Otherwise, the assassin is better taking the Arcane Strike feat.
Rulebook 06-20-05, 11:04 PM	A bard can cast bard spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. An assassin casts spells just as a bard does. both quotes are pulled from the SRD and make it pretty clear.
runestar 06-20-05, 11:45 PM	Are they supposed to sing to cast their spells as well?
Wyrd Bearer 06-21-05, 12:34 AM	Are they supposed to sing to cast their spells as well? I believe that they wouldn't. At the time, the only core class that could ignore ASF in light armour was the bard, so they referenced something that everyone was familiar with to save the time and effort of printing that an assassin can cast without ASF in light armour. If they had just gone through the oh so bothersome effort of outright saying that an assassin cast cast without ASF in light armour this wouldn't be an issue. I also suppose that if a DM was a huge rules lawyer, then yes, the assassin would be required to sing and dance to cast its spells. But that makes no sense for a class that specializes in silent and stealthy killing. This can be fixed with a little common sense, but then again, since when does common sense have any bearing on what the rules say? ;) :P
Rulebook 06-21-05, 01:03 PM	first off... why does everybody assume that the "all bard spells have a verbal component" to automatically mean "a bard has to sing his fool head off at the top of his lungs so everyody ina 10 mile radius can hear him"? you know they can WHISPER a small amount of REGULAR WORDS to accomplish this right? that is within the realms of VERBAL you know...
Tusz 06-21-05, 01:16 PM	you know they can WHISPER a small amount of REGULAR WORDS to accomplish this right? that is within the realms of VERBAL you know... To cast a spell with a verbal component, your character must speak in a firm voice. I interpret that to mean you can't whisper-cast a spell. I don't know any official rulings on this, though.
Raven Dark 06-21-05, 01:24 PM	I interpret that to mean you can't whisper-cast a spell. I don't know any official rulings on this, though. I suppose it could be a firmly voiced whisper.
Wyrd Bearer 06-21-05, 01:26 PM	Casting a spell with verbal components means that you must say the words IN A GRAND SWEEPING VOICE, loud enough that it is DC 0 check to hear someone casting a spell. I believe there is a feat where you can whisper the components, no wait, I believe that in races of stone you can use slight of hand or some other skill to try to cast your spell real subtly and this included the verbal components. Course you can just eliminate the verbal component entirely with the silent spell feat, given the opponent no chance of over hearing the casting. Unless of course you're a bard, then you'll need to either use the disguise spell feat or attempt a slight of hand check.
Rulebook 06-21-05, 01:35 PM	firm dosent mean loud, it means unwavering determination. you cant half-ass magic, but you can do it quietly if you need to. otherwise, try to do a Rammstein voice, thats about the sound level you need. give or take.
tarkin 06-21-05, 03:36 PM	Officially, to cast spells, you need to use a voice hearable on a DC 0 Listen check. So techinically, I guess that could be a Whisper, but it would be a very LOUD whisper.
Raven Dark 06-21-05, 06:52 PM	Officially, to cast spells, you need to use a voice hearable on a DC 0 Listen check. So techinically, I guess that could be a Whisper, but it would be a very LOUD whisper. Where, officially, does it say you need a voice equivalent to a DC 0 listen check? God, I hope its not a splat book. The whole point of splat books is to be an optional supplement, not to set new "official" rules. That is what the Eratta is for.
Wyrd Bearer 06-21-05, 08:14 PM	I forget exactly where it says that, but both tarkin's and my own memories are in agreement here. If I can recall from what I am remembering this, I will post it if not beaten to the punch.
Raven Dark 06-21-05, 08:14 PM	Casting a spell with somatic components means that you must say the words IN A GRAND SWEEPING VOICE, loud enough that it is DC 0 check to hear someone casting a spell. I believe there is a feat where you can whisper the components, no wait, I believe that in races of stone you can use slight of hand or some other skill to try to cast your spell real subtly and this included the verbal components. Course you can just eliminate the verbal component entirely with the silent spell feat, given the opponent no chance of over hearing the casting. Unless of course you're a bard, then you'll need to either use the disguise spell feat or attempt a slight of hand check. Don't you mean VERBAL components?
Wyrd Bearer 06-21-05, 09:04 PM	Perhaps. ;)
Vaelan 06-21-05, 09:08 PM	The Bard's ability to ignore spell failure from light armor is stated in their Weapon and Armor Proficiency entry. One could say that the ability to cast in light armor is not part of a Bard's spellcasting based on that. Personally, I think the Assassin needing verbal components isn't quite right, so I am inclined to believe that "casting spells as a Bard" just means that Assassins do not need to prepare their spells ahead of time (and thus do not require verbal components and have to deal with ASF).
Nephlite 06-21-05, 09:10 PM	Where, officially, does it say you need a voice equivalent to a DC 0 listen check? God, I hope its not a splat book. The whole point of splat books is to be an optional supplement, not to set new "official" rules. That is what the Eratta is for. SRD isn't a splat book: LISTEN (WIS) Check: Your Listen check is either made against a DC that reflects how quiet the noise is that you might hear, or it is opposed by your target's Move Silently check. Listen DC Sound –10 A battle 0 People talking1 5 A person in medium armor walking at a slow pace (10 ft./round) trying not to make any noise. 10 An unarmored person walking at a slow pace (15 ft./round) trying not to make any noise 15 A 1st-level rogue using Move Silently to sneak past the listener 15 People whispering1 19 A cat stalking 30 An owl gliding in for a kill 1 If you beat the DC by 10 or more, you can make out what's being said, assuming that you understand the language. Listen DC Modifier Condition +5 Through a door +15 Through a stone wall +1 Per 10 feet of distance +5 Listener distracted In the case of people trying to be quiet, the DCs given on the table could be replaced by Move Silently checks, in which case the indicated DC would be their average check result. First half of Listen.