Assassins and Arcane Spell Failure. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Assassins and Arcane Spell Failure. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Evandar_TAybara
08-27-06, 11:52 AM An assassin casts spells just as a bard does.So do assassins ignore the arcane spell failure for light armour, "just as a bard does"? If not, why not use the phrase "just as a sorcerer does"? I've always assumed that assassins spells were subjet to arcane spell failure, as this ability of the bard is mentioned in his armour proficiency section, not the spellcasting section, but as a player of mine wants to play an assassin for his next character, I thought I should check it out. Is the text from my quote just taken wholesale from the 3.0 edition of the DMG where it would have made no difference which class they referred to as both bards and sorcerers suffered ASF in all armours? There's no mention of this in either the FAQ or the DMG Errata which surprises me as it is a little ambiguous.

Evan.
DragonChild_
08-27-06, 12:32 PM That is correct - an assassin ignores ASF for light armor, which seems to be the design intent.

It also means that an assassin is unable to use the silent spell feat, which does not appear to be design intent.
Evandar_TAybara
08-27-06, 01:06 PM That is correct - an assassin ignores ASF for light armor.Really? I'm not disputing your interpretation of this, just wondering how you came to this conclusion (or if there was an official rulling on it)? With introducing this rule for bards in 3.5, they made allowance for this by saying that the somatic component was simple for bard spells. This make sense for a bard as the verbal compontent of his spells is (at least flavour-wise) the most important component of his magic. Is it to be assumed that this is the same for assassins? Do ALL assassin spells ever published have a verbal component for that matter?

Oh, and whilst we're on the subject of assassin spells. There are a few from his list that a normally divine only and have a divine focus listed as a component. Normally if a spell is both arcane and divine, it will have a material component for the arcane version. The the assassin spells that this covers, do we assume that he requires a divine focus (even though it is an arcane spell), that no focus or material component is required, or that a suitable material component should be substituted for the divine focus?

Evan.
Lokathor
08-27-06, 01:22 PM He doesn't need a DF (he's not a divine caster), and he doesnt' need any replacement materials.

And it doesn't matter if they have a verbal component or not. Assassins learn to cast in light armor, and that's that.
Evandar_TAybara
08-27-06, 02:36 PM But is this conclusion drawn simply from the one sentence I originally quoted? I would imagine that if WotC intended this to be the case then they would have specifically mentioned this ability rather than expecting us to infer that this is what they meant from that one rather ambiguous line of text.

Evan.
Zherog
08-27-06, 02:42 PM In 3.0, an assassin cast spells like a wizard - including having to have a spellbook. The change to "they cast just like a bard" was specific to the conversion to 3.5. I take this to mean WotC wanted assassins to be able to cast spells in light armor - after all, it makes sense for an assassin to wear light armor.

I also agree with Dragon Child that it has the unintended effect of making it so assassins can't use the Silent Spell feat; further, it has the decidedly unexpected result of making every assassin spell have a verbal component, even if one is not listed.

WotC likes to use references, rather than repeating rules when necessary. It saves word count, and it also - usually - makes the rules more internally consistent. This is the reason, for example, why they have a bunch of standard conditions defined, and then just refer to the condition rather than saying what the results of the condition are. By doing this, if the errata a condition, every spell that applies that condition is automatically fixed.
Evandar_TAybara
08-27-06, 02:53 PM Ok, fair enough. That's 3-0, and some logical explainations. I'll stop fishing for more proof :) Thanks for your help guys, I'll pass the info on to my player who I'm sure will be happy.

Cheers,

Evan.
Kradlo
08-27-06, 04:49 PM While I'm in full agreement regardin the assassin's arcane spell failure in light armor (i.e., none), I do disagree about the prohibition of the Silent Spell feat. The Silent Spell feat specifically states that Bard spells may not be cast with Silent Spell. It does not list Assassin spells as having that prohibition.

I'm not one to reach for loopholes in order to subvert the intent of the rules. In this case, I think it would be a stretch to force Assassins to avoid the Silent Spell feat. I don't think the intent of the rules was to similarly restrict Assassins from being silent and sneaky.

Good question, though.
Zherog
08-27-06, 05:14 PM I'm not one to reach for loopholes in order to subvert the intent of the rules. In this case, I think it would be a stretch to force Assassins to avoid the Silent Spell feat. I don't think the intent of the rules was to similarly restrict Assassins from being silent and sneaky.

Good question, though.

I agree the intent of the rules is to allow the assassin to be a sneaky guy, and use Silent Spell or just cast spells that don't have verbal components. What Dragon Child was pointing out, though - and what I agree is the literal interpretation of the rules - is this:

An assassin casts spells just as a bard does.

Spells: A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music). To learn or cast a spell, a bard must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a bard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the bard’s Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a bard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Bard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. When Table: Bard Spells Known indicates that the bard gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Charisma score for that spell level.

The bard’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A bard begins play knowing four 0-level spells of your choice. At most new bard levels, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Bard Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a bard knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Bard Spells Known are fixed.)

Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third bard level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a bard can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the bard “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level bard spell the bard can cast. A bard may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

As noted above, a bard need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level.

Ironically, actually, the rules that allow a bard to cast spells in light armor isn't part of the bard's spellcasting rules - it's part of his armor proficiency.

I think the intent of the assassin spell casting rule is that the assassin is a spontaneous caster who can cast in light armor. That's how it works in my campaign, and probably most others.

For those who enjoy looking at literal interpretations of the rules - for fun - can look at the assassin spell casting and get a chuckle, because it essentially forces every assassin spell to have a verbal component.
Vorpal_Rabbit
08-27-06, 07:13 PM The rules do say that an Assassin casts spells like a Bard does, and that Bard spells all have a verbal component. However, Assassins do not cast Bard spells, they cast Assassin spells. The verbal requirement for Bard spells shouldn't apply to Assassin spells because they are on entirely different spell lists.
The_Shaman
08-27-06, 07:44 PM Does "as a bard" mean that an assassin can become a dragon disciple?
Zherog
08-27-06, 08:14 PM Yes - assassins are spontaneous spellcasters, which qualifies them for Dragon Disciple.
Evandar_TAybara
08-28-06, 04:53 AM This is where an extra sentence from WotC would have made things a lot clearer. Whilst I know that most people prefer that we don't have to pay for the same material repeated over and over (and to some extent I do agree), I would rather pay an extra dollar/pound for my book to have everything there in front of me where I open the page, and not be a case of "Well here's half the info you need, but you'll also need to have the PH open at three different pages all at the same time to acctually get all the information you need." But I guess that's a whole different argement for another thread... :)
If you take the sentence "as bards do" completely literally then assassins should use Charisma to determine extra spells and spell DC, but obviously they don't. I'm just saying that printing:
"Assassins ignore arcane spell failure for light armour." really would have been much clearer (and only a few more characters than):
"An assassin cast spells just as a bard does."

Anyway, in conclusion, I'm going to go with the general/logical concensus of:

Assassins ignore the arcane spell failure of light armour.
Any Divine Focus listed in an assassin spell should be ignored.
Assassins can make use of the Silent Spell feat.

Cheers for your input everyone :)

Evan.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Evandar_TAybara 08-27-06, 11:52 AM	An assassin casts spells just as a bard does.So do assassins ignore the arcane spell failure for light armour, "just as a bard does"? If not, why not use the phrase "just as a sorcerer does"? I've always assumed that assassins spells were subjet to arcane spell failure, as this ability of the bard is mentioned in his armour proficiency section, not the spellcasting section, but as a player of mine wants to play an assassin for his next character, I thought I should check it out. Is the text from my quote just taken wholesale from the 3.0 edition of the DMG where it would have made no difference which class they referred to as both bards and sorcerers suffered ASF in all armours? There's no mention of this in either the FAQ or the DMG Errata which surprises me as it is a little ambiguous. Evan.
DragonChild_ 08-27-06, 12:32 PM	That is correct - an assassin ignores ASF for light armor, which seems to be the design intent. It also means that an assassin is unable to use the silent spell feat, which does not appear to be design intent.
Evandar_TAybara 08-27-06, 01:06 PM	That is correct - an assassin ignores ASF for light armor.Really? I'm not disputing your interpretation of this, just wondering how you came to this conclusion (or if there was an official rulling on it)? With introducing this rule for bards in 3.5, they made allowance for this by saying that the somatic component was simple for bard spells. This make sense for a bard as the verbal compontent of his spells is (at least flavour-wise) the most important component of his magic. Is it to be assumed that this is the same for assassins? Do ALL assassin spells ever published have a verbal component for that matter? Oh, and whilst we're on the subject of assassin spells. There are a few from his list that a normally divine only and have a divine focus listed as a component. Normally if a spell is both arcane and divine, it will have a material component for the arcane version. The the assassin spells that this covers, do we assume that he requires a divine focus (even though it is an arcane spell), that no focus or material component is required, or that a suitable material component should be substituted for the divine focus? Evan.
Lokathor 08-27-06, 01:22 PM	He doesn't need a DF (he's not a divine caster), and he doesnt' need any replacement materials. And it doesn't matter if they have a verbal component or not. Assassins learn to cast in light armor, and that's that.
Evandar_TAybara 08-27-06, 02:36 PM	But is this conclusion drawn simply from the one sentence I originally quoted? I would imagine that if WotC intended this to be the case then they would have specifically mentioned this ability rather than expecting us to infer that this is what they meant from that one rather ambiguous line of text. Evan.
Zherog 08-27-06, 02:42 PM	In 3.0, an assassin cast spells like a wizard - including having to have a spellbook. The change to "they cast just like a bard" was specific to the conversion to 3.5. I take this to mean WotC wanted assassins to be able to cast spells in light armor - after all, it makes sense for an assassin to wear light armor. I also agree with Dragon Child that it has the unintended effect of making it so assassins can't use the Silent Spell feat; further, it has the decidedly unexpected result of making every assassin spell have a verbal component, even if one is not listed. WotC likes to use references, rather than repeating rules when necessary. It saves word count, and it also - usually - makes the rules more internally consistent. This is the reason, for example, why they have a bunch of standard conditions defined, and then just refer to the condition rather than saying what the results of the condition are. By doing this, if the errata a condition, every spell that applies that condition is automatically fixed.
Evandar_TAybara 08-27-06, 02:53 PM	Ok, fair enough. That's 3-0, and some logical explainations. I'll stop fishing for more proof :) Thanks for your help guys, I'll pass the info on to my player who I'm sure will be happy. Cheers, Evan.
Kradlo 08-27-06, 04:49 PM	While I'm in full agreement regardin the assassin's arcane spell failure in light armor (i.e., none), I do disagree about the prohibition of the Silent Spell feat. The Silent Spell feat specifically states that Bard spells may not be cast with Silent Spell. It does not list Assassin spells as having that prohibition. I'm not one to reach for loopholes in order to subvert the intent of the rules. In this case, I think it would be a stretch to force Assassins to avoid the Silent Spell feat. I don't think the intent of the rules was to similarly restrict Assassins from being silent and sneaky. Good question, though.
Zherog 08-27-06, 05:14 PM	I'm not one to reach for loopholes in order to subvert the intent of the rules. In this case, I think it would be a stretch to force Assassins to avoid the Silent Spell feat. I don't think the intent of the rules was to similarly restrict Assassins from being silent and sneaky. Good question, though. I agree the intent of the rules is to allow the assassin to be a sneaky guy, and use Silent Spell or just cast spells that don't have verbal components. What Dragon Child was pointing out, though - and what I agree is the literal interpretation of the rules - is this: An assassin casts spells just as a bard does. Spells: A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music). To learn or cast a spell, a bard must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a bard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the bard’s Charisma modifier. Like other spellcasters, a bard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Bard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. When Table: Bard Spells Known indicates that the bard gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Charisma score for that spell level. The bard’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A bard begins play knowing four 0-level spells of your choice. At most new bard levels, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Bard Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a bard knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Bard Spells Known are fixed.) Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third bard level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a bard can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the bard “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level bard spell the bard can cast. A bard may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level. As noted above, a bard need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level. Ironically, actually, the rules that allow a bard to cast spells in light armor isn't part of the bard's spellcasting rules - it's part of his armor proficiency. I think the intent of the assassin spell casting rule is that the assassin is a spontaneous caster who can cast in light armor. That's how it works in my campaign, and probably most others. For those who enjoy looking at literal interpretations of the rules - for fun - can look at the assassin spell casting and get a chuckle, because it essentially forces every assassin spell to have a verbal component.
Vorpal_Rabbit 08-27-06, 07:13 PM	The rules do say that an Assassin casts spells like a Bard does, and that Bard spells all have a verbal component. However, Assassins do not cast Bard spells, they cast Assassin spells. The verbal requirement for Bard spells shouldn't apply to Assassin spells because they are on entirely different spell lists.
The_Shaman 08-27-06, 07:44 PM	Does "as a bard" mean that an assassin can become a dragon disciple?
Zherog 08-27-06, 08:14 PM	Yes - assassins are spontaneous spellcasters, which qualifies them for Dragon Disciple.
Evandar_TAybara 08-28-06, 04:53 AM	This is where an extra sentence from WotC would have made things a lot clearer. Whilst I know that most people prefer that we don't have to pay for the same material repeated over and over (and to some extent I do agree), I would rather pay an extra dollar/pound for my book to have everything there in front of me where I open the page, and not be a case of "Well here's half the info you need, but you'll also need to have the PH open at three different pages all at the same time to acctually get all the information you need." But I guess that's a whole different argement for another thread... :) If you take the sentence "as bards do" completely literally then assassins should use Charisma to determine extra spells and spell DC, but obviously they don't. I'm just saying that printing: "Assassins ignore arcane spell failure for light armour." really would have been much clearer (and only a few more characters than): "An assassin cast spells just as a bard does." Anyway, in conclusion, I'm going to go with the general/logical concensus of: Assassins ignore the arcane spell failure of light armour. Any Divine Focus listed in an assassin spell should be ignored. Assassins can make use of the Silent Spell feat. Cheers for your input everyone :) Evan.