Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sir_argenon 03-02-08, 06:22 PM	http://bighugelabs.com/flickr/output/motivator6812209.jpg i see people all the time, especially on the CO boards saying that the assassin is bad. what i do not understand is why? i understand that the death attack is not very good, but they also get 5d6 SA, med BAB, poison use, Imp uncanny dodge, HIPS, and nice spontaneous utility spells. whats there not to like?
The_Shaman 03-02-08, 06:26 PM	I don't know about others, I'm just not too impressed. Rogues get the same SA progression, BAB and saves, but with much more skills and similar features. The spellcasting is quite nice, but with UMD a rogue can do that fairly well anyway.
Sinfire Titan 03-02-08, 06:28 PM	3 Rounds wait, needs a high class level in the PrC to be effective, and delays Time Stop, which makes the class good. 4+Int instead of 8+Int, full BAB instead of 8+Int. Spellcasting like that isn't worth 10 levels in a PrC class, which is why people go Spellthief 1/Wiz 5/Unseen Seer X/Assassin 1/Ultimate Magus Y/Major Bloodline 3 and get Time Stop+Death Attack from hell. Others just play a Marrulurk (Sandstorm).
sir_argenon 03-02-08, 06:43 PM	i see unseen seer, and i see suck.. it has a horrible hd, which makes you completely unfit for melee combat without numerous buffs. it is fine for a sneaky wizard, but horrible for any magic using rogue who still wants to be able to kill people without being killed first. and divination spell power? omg, how is it possible to suck that much? i just dont get why so many people advocate this horrible prc, and then they turn around and shoot down the assassin
dman11235 03-02-08, 06:54 PM	Because the Unseen Seer doesn't actually suck, and the Assassin (though it doesn't suck) isn't all that powerful. I'd say it's a fairly balanced PrC, if not a little underpowered.
Sinfire Titan 03-02-08, 07:01 PM	i see unseen seer, and i see suck.. it has a horrible hd, which makes you completely unfit for melee combat without numerous buffs. it is fine for a sneaky wizard, but horrible for any magic using rogue who still wants to be able to kill people without being killed first. and divination spell power? omg, how is it possible to suck that much? i just dont get why so many people advocate this horrible prc, and then they turn around and shoot down the assassin Unseen Seer>>>>> Daggerspell Mage. The Unseen Seer looks underpowered at first, but combined with the Master Spelltheif feat and maxed out Wizard levels, with Spontaneous Divinations from CC, this class is actually very potent. And it is meant for snipers more than Spellwarp Sniper is, seeing as SWS is nothing but a hose on AoE spells.
Khazzan 03-02-08, 07:47 PM	Unseen Seer>>>>> Daggerspell Mage. The Unseen Seer looks underpowered at first, but combined with the Master Spelltheif feat and maxed out Wizard levels, with Spontaneous Divinations from CC, this class is actually very potent. And it is meant for snipers more than Spellwarp Sniper is, seeing as SWS is nothing but a hose on AoE spells. Care to post this build? I'd love to see the level breakdown, stats, feats, etc... or link to it if it is posted somewhere maybe? Thanks!
sir_argenon 03-02-08, 07:57 PM	well thats the thing, if youre making a wizard that likes to sneak around, US is great. its a full casting prc, so youre going to be doing less sneaking and more time-stopping and campaign breaking. i constantly see people advising to take US for a combat rogue instead of assasin, and to me, that has no merit at all.
archerpwr 03-02-08, 08:35 PM	well thats the thing, if youre making a wizard that likes to sneak around, US is great. its a full casting prc, so youre going to be doing less sneaking and more time-stopping and campaign breaking. i constantly see people advising to take US for a combat rogue instead of assasin, and to me, that has no merit at all. Wrong. People advise unseen seer for someone that can pull of an assassination. Someone that can kill anyone at any time at any place. People advise swashbuckler and nightsong enforcer for combat rogues which are completely different than assassins. You don't have to be good in melee to pull off an assassination. If they are getting a chance to fight back and you're in range to be hurt you're doing something wrong.
Sinfire Titan 03-02-08, 09:10 PM	Care to post this build? I'd love to see the level breakdown, stats, feats, etc... or link to it if it is posted somewhere maybe? Thanks! Let me see here, what can I come up with? Well, aside from Spelltheif 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer X/ and what have you, there is a personal favorite of using the Wizard variant that replaces Scribe Scroll with a Fighter feat to enter it with just Wizard levels, so you have full casting instead of losing out on one level. That build would go like so: Wizard 5/MS 4/Unseen Seer 10/Archmage 1 Build would go like this: 1st: Spell Mastery Flaw: Uncanny Forethought Flaw: Spell Focus (Conjuration) (MS requirement) Wizard Bonus Feat: Martial Study (any Shadow Hand technique) 3rd: Free, but something to give Spot as a class skill wouldn't hurt. 4th: Skill Focus (Spellcraft) (MS bonus) 6th: Free, but try and get the other skills as class skills. (All you need after Martial Study is Search and Spot, and I'm sure there are ways to get them) Wiz 5th: Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) (You stagger Wiz and MS levels to get this) 9th: Great Spell Focus (Conjuration), Spell Focus (Divination or Transmutation) 12th: Free 15th: Free 18th: Free I'm sure there are ways to get Spot and Search as Wizard class skills with feats and not having to lose spells or delay your advancement. Not sure what they are, but I'm sure someone does. Obviously, the primary stat is Int, followed by Con, and the lastly Dex (Nerveskitter works wonders for this though). If you are Human, a little trickery can net you Spontaneous Divinations and still get you Assassin's Stance at the level you need it. So this translates into a +6d6 on Scorching Ray and other DD spells, not half-bad. The only tricky part is meeting the Unseen Seer's entry requirements. I'm sure there is a way that doesn't involve CL loss. And I am right. After a little searching, I found a full casting PrC that grants both of those skills as class skills. The Keeper of the Cerulean Sign. The build almost requires human as the base race. But it looks like this: Wizard 5/MS 3/KotCS 2/Unseen Seer 10 Build would go like this: 1st: Spell Mastery Flaw: Uncanny Forethought Flaw: Free (Able Leaner works wonders here) Wizard Bonus Feat: Martial Study (any Shadow Hand technique) Human: Aberration Banemagic 3rd: Craft Wondrous Item 4th: Skill Focus (Spellcraft) (MS bonus) 6th: Favored Magic Foe or Knowledge Devotion. Either one will help, but you really don't need them. Wiz 5th: Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) (You stagger Wiz and MS levels to get this) 9th: Great Spell Focus (Conjuration) (MS), Spell Focus (Divination or Transmutation) 12th: Free 15th: Free 18th: Free Skill Points work out like this: 1st: Any you choose. Lots of Knowledge is good, as you can take a hit to them and not really suffer too bad. Ranks: 4/2 2nd: Max out Hide to catch it up, at the cost of your excess skills (knowledge). Arcana and Dugeoneering need to be maxed. Ranks 5/2.5 3rd: Standard. Bee sure to have as many ranks in Spot and Search as possible, and get a few ranks in Gather Info. Ranks: 6/3 4th: Take a level of Wizard here. Ranks: 7/3.5 5th: MS. Ranks: 8/4 6th: Wiz. Ranks: 9/4.5 7th: MS. Ranks: 10/5 8th: Wiz. Getting Assassin's Stance over the metamagic feat. Ranks: 11/5.5 9th: Keeper as the 9th level class. Boost the hell out of Spot and Search, seeing as they are now able to have 3 more ranks a piece in them. Ranks: 12/9/6 10th: Start Unseen Seer, and the rest is irrelevant. Epic progression should be KotCS 4th: You are now in MS. Hide is always a class skill due to Martial Study, so keep it and the other three maxed out. Ranks I knew I would find a way to do it. And I did. Take Practiced Spellcaster to make up for Unseen Seer's CL hit to Conjuration and to minimize the Uncanny Forethought's full round drawback. Then you are Batman on crack.
sir_argenon 03-02-08, 09:33 PM	Wrong. People advise unseen seer for someone that can pull of an assassination. Someone that can kill anyone at any time at any place. People advise swashbuckler and nightsong enforcer for combat rogues which are completely different than assassins. You don't have to be good in melee to pull off an assassination. If they are getting a chance to fight back and you're in range to be hurt you're doing something wrong. im glad you responded because you are one of the main people on the CO boards that i was referring to. now, i understand that there are methods to do certain things well, like NSE for combat rogue, but if you are multiclassing then the assassin comes in very handy (it's a prc, so no xp penalties) and it still gives a full SA progression, and other goodies. you still have not said what makes the assassin a "trap" in your opinion. please be specific. thanks. if someone is building a combat rogue, what makes assassin such a bad choice?
sir_argenon 03-02-08, 09:43 PM	Wrong. People advise unseen seer for someone that can pull of an assassination. Someone that can kill anyone at any time at any place. People advise swashbuckler and nightsong enforcer for combat rogues which are completely different than assassins. You don't have to be good in melee to pull off an assassination. If they are getting a chance to fight back and you're in range to be hurt you're doing something wrong. im glad you responded because you are one of the main people on the CO boards that i was referring to. now, i understand that there are methods to do certain things well, like NSE for combat rogue, but if you are multiclassing then the assassin comes in very handy (it's a prc, so no xp penalties) and it still gives a full SA progression, and other goodies. you still have not said what makes the assassin a "trap" in your opinion. please be specific. thanks. if someone is building a combat rogue, what makes assassin such a bad choice?
dman11235 03-02-08, 09:43 PM	Because a combat rogue is going to be a higher HP/BAB sort of deal, and not going to worry about assassination, which the assassin does do. An assassin doesn't lend as many abilities to straight up combat as a rogue/swash buckler does or a rogue/fighter/NSE does. Or even straight rogue.
runestar 03-02-08, 10:09 PM	you still have not said what makes the assassin a "trap" in your opinion. please be specific. thanks. My take is that death attack, the only real reason why you are even taking the assassin prc in the first place, is virtually impossible to use effectively unless you can consistently access a means of timestop or hide in plain sight and buy 3 rounds worth of time. Your DC isn't all that stellar either (20+int mod+2ability focus) at lv20 - most foes will have fort saves surpassing that. Tricking out death attack will require aggressive multiclassing and use of bloodlines to reach that DC40+ you need for a fair chance of success. Assassin should be a character concept, but a specific prc, just as "fighter" can be any melee build which has say, bab+18 by lv20, even if it comprises of 8-10 classes+prcs, and not necessarily just 20 lvs in fighter. Basically, for the prc, there is nothing "assassin'ish" about you but the name of your prc.
archerpwr 03-02-08, 10:33 PM	im glad you responded because you are one of the main people on the CO boards that i was referring to. now, i understand that there are methods to do certain things well, like NSE for combat rogue, but if you are multiclassing then the assassin comes in very handy (it's a prc, so no xp penalties) and it still gives a full SA progression, and other goodies. you still have not said what makes the assassin a "trap" in your opinion. please be specific. thanks. if someone is building a combat rogue, what makes assassin such a bad choice? Runestar has hit most of it. Here's the rest: 1) Opportunist makes rogue a far better option for the combat roll. 2) 4+int skill points means you sacrifice some of your skillmonkey role. Medium bab, d6 HD, and poison use aren't enough to pay back for this. The spells are way too easy to replicate. 3) The save DC is way too low of death attack to warrant 3 rounds. 4) HiPS is nice. It's the only thing worth it in the PrC. That said, there are far better ways to get it. There is simply nothing in the PrC that can't be gotten in better ways or done better with something else.
I_roll_ones 03-02-08, 10:35 PM	Considering the spells...Is there a class like the assassin that is published(Or possibly fanmade, if done well) that is a base class, not a prestige class, and has their spell list? Some of the spells they get are...Wacky, but interesting. Such as Smoke Walk, and I think they get one to hide their weapon inside of themselves.
sir_argenon 03-02-08, 10:36 PM	Runestar has hit most of it. Here's the rest: 1) Opportunist makes rogue a far better option for the combat roll. 2) 4+int skill points means you sacrifice some of your skillmonkey role. Medium bab, d6 HD, and poison use aren't enough to pay back for this. The spells are way too easy to replicate. 3) The save DC is way too low of death attack to warrant 3 rounds. 4) HiPS is nice. It's the only thing worth it in the PrC. That said, there are far better ways to get it. There is simply nothing in the PrC that can't be gotten in better ways or done better with something else. i see. that makes sense. thanks.
The_Shaman 03-02-08, 10:52 PM	Runestar has hit most of it. Here's the rest: 1) Opportunist makes rogue a far better option for the combat roll. 2) 4+int skill points means you sacrifice some of your skillmonkey role. Medium bab, d6 HD, and poison use aren't enough to pay back for this. The spells are way too easy to replicate. 3) The save DC is way too low of death attack to warrant 3 rounds. 4) HiPS is nice. It's the only thing worth it in the PrC. That said, there are far better ways to get it. There is simply nothing in the PrC that can't be gotten in better ways or done better with something else. I consider their spells fairly cute, TBH. It's probably the only reason I'd bother. As for the death attack... it could be handy, but there are quite a few PrCs that give it. My vote goes to, hmmm... Teflammar Shadowlord, perhaps?
dman11235 03-02-08, 10:54 PM	Cute? I've never heard anyone refer to a spell list being "cute" before. It can be replicated through use of UMD though. Yeah, it is one of the most powerful skills in the game for a reason.
archerpwr 03-02-08, 10:56 PM	I consider their spells fairly cute, TBH. It's probably the only reason I'd bother. As for the death attack... it could be handy, but there are quite a few PrCs that give it. My vote goes to, hmmm... Teflammar Shadowlord, perhaps? Teflammar Shadowlord is fricken awesome. Multipouncing for the win.
I_roll_ones 03-02-08, 11:03 PM	I could see how it is cute. It's small and useless, and yet with a certain amount of charm and appeal. And it's so amusing when it tries, just like a kitten that tries to pounce your pencil, and tries sooooo hard to kill it.
Sinfire Titan 03-02-08, 11:04 PM	Cute? I've never heard anyone refer to a spell list being "cute" before. It can be replicated through use of UMD though. Yeah, it is one of the most powerful skills in the game for a reason. And, interestingly enough, every spell that is Assassin only is able to be put into a wand...
dman11235 03-02-08, 11:08 PM	My cats so totally do that I_roll. Okay, that's how it's cute. It was the first time I have ever heard a spell list described as cute though.
sir_argenon 03-02-08, 11:19 PM	And, interestingly enough, every spell that is Assassin only is able to be put into a wand... is it possible to power arcane strikes with a wand?
dman11235 03-02-08, 11:23 PM	No, it's not. You've found a nice bonus for the class. Though a wizard/rogue. Uncanny Trickster would probably be better unless you want to be an assassin in all aspects of the word. In which case you wouldn't take AS.
Sinfire Titan 03-03-08, 12:04 AM	is it possible to power arcane strikes with a wand? I do not think so. But that would be cool if you could.
Eikre 03-03-08, 01:04 AM	And, interestingly enough, every spell that is Assassin only is able to be put into a wand... Like all those swift action spells. That would take a standard action to activate in a wand.
Sinfire Titan 03-03-08, 01:43 AM	Like all those swift action spells. That would take a standard action to activate in a wand. Spell Trigger Activating a spell trigger item takes the same amount of time as the casting time of the spell that item stores, but activating the item does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You were saying? The SRD is overruled by the RC, as it hasn't been updated with this ruling yet.
The_Shaman 03-03-08, 10:25 AM	I could see how it is cute. It's small and useless, and yet with a certain amount of charm and appeal. And it's so amusing when it tries, just like a kitten that tries to pounce your pencil, and tries sooooo hard to kill it. Yeah, kinda what I meant. It's small, and if you consider it on its own, useful... until you compare it to what a real caster can whip out, and then it becomes completely laughable. It's the Trabant (or VW Beetle, for those who don't know what a Trabby is) of spellcasting ;)
Sinfire Titan 03-03-08, 11:38 AM	Yeah, kinda what I meant. It's small, and if you consider it on its own, useful... until you compare it to what a real caster can whip out, and then it becomes completely laughable. It's the Trabant (or VW Beetle, for those who don't know what a Trabby is) of spellcasting ;) Its like throwing a Shetland Pony at a pack of frenzied Kodaks. That tiny horse is going to get pwned in a matter of seconds, and then you're next.
The_Shaman 03-03-08, 11:45 AM	Of course, if you were expecting it to be your mighty warbearst of thaumaturgical world-blasting, it simply won't do. If you were expecting it to be an added pair of eyes and ears at times, it can be tolerable. A Shetland pony has its uses, they're just different ;) .
I_roll_ones 03-03-08, 07:36 PM	Don't use a pony to do a Fleshraker's job, or you'll just have a dead pony. And don't use a Fleshraker to do a pony's job, or that will be the worst birthday party EVER.
unundindur 03-04-08, 09:06 AM	Ok, since I like "assassins" conceptually this thread had a number of interesting points. First of all, you could check out the class of the same name in my signature, for my take at a working class that assassinate in a more or less traditional way (no gating in invisible balors or breaking staffs of power to kill). Other than that I have never understood the "mage-assassin" concept that is always deemed superior. First and foremost, for me to accept an assassin as an assassin he or she must be able to kill with as little show as possible (I see few non-flashy high level spells that aim at murder). Secondly he should be able to infiltrate protected compounds (see antimagic, anticipate teleport etc...) and third he should be able to get away in any number of ways after the deed is done (disguise, teleport, bluff, fighting, flying etc. etc.). Why you need timestop to be an effective assassin I don't understand either, that sort of implies that you have little time on your hand, which again implies you do this in combat, which is just a horrible setting for an assassination. I agree that death attack is not perfect, and if not optimized, weak. That said, it doesn't require much work to have a decent death attack DC, by combining assassin/teflammar shadowlord/dark hunter/black flame zealot. Aided by a dagger of assassination (DMG), bracers of murder (DotU) and ability focus (death attack) we are looking at a DC that should have a fair chance at a balor (which is not at all a target an assassin excel at taking down). Some here mentioned bloodlines, which I don't know, so I would be very interested in hearing how they relate to any of this. As of now, my favourite (drow) assassin build is Warblade5/Dark hunter5/Assassin 8, and if I were a human it would likely involve teflammar shadowlord instead of dark hunter. Anyhow, almost anyone can be a good assassin if they have the right tool to do it.
archerpwr 03-04-08, 06:00 PM	Ok, since I like "assassins" conceptually this thread had a number of interesting points. First of all, you could check out the class of the same name in my signature, for my take at a working class that assassinate in a more or less traditional way (no gating in invisible balors or breaking staffs of power to kill). Sounds good. Other than that I have never understood the "mage-assassin" concept that is always deemed superior. First and foremost, for me to accept an assassin as an assassin he or she must be able to kill with as little show as possible (I see few non-flashy high level spells that aim at murder). Secondly he should be able to infiltrate protected compounds (see antimagic, anticipate teleport etc...) and third he should be able to get away in any number of ways after the deed is done (disguise, teleport, bluff, fighting, flying etc. etc.). You aren't supposed to use flashy spells as an assassin. Don't use scorching ray. Use sleep and coup de grace. Wizard spells are excellent at what you are describing. Why you need timestop to be an effective assassin I don't understand either, that sort of implies that you have little time on your hand, which again implies you do this in combat, which is just a horrible setting for an assassination. Time stop is a silly spell to be casting in an assassination. Timestop is the "Oh ****!" button to get your buffs up when surprised (which an assassin shouldn't ever be). I agree that death attack is not perfect, and if not optimized, weak. That said, it doesn't require much work to have a decent death attack DC, by combining assassin/teflammar shadowlord/dark hunter/black flame zealot. Aided by a dagger of assassination (DMG), bracers of murder (DotU) and ability focus (death attack) we are looking at a DC that should have a fair chance at a balor (which is not at all a target an assassin excel at taking down). Some here mentioned bloodlines, which I don't know, so I would be very interested in hearing how they relate to any of this. As of now, my favourite (drow) assassin build is Warblade5/Dark hunter5/Assassin 8, and if I were a human it would likely involve teflammar shadowlord instead of dark hunter. Anyhow, almost anyone can be a good assassin if they have the right tool to do it.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-04-08, 10:56 PM	The main thing I don't like about the assassin is that a straight wizard can be a better assassin than the assassin PrC. Alternately, this assassin is also good: Assassin "I kill people. Individually, you are a person. Collectively, I think you count as people." An assassin is a master of the art of killing, a vicious weapon honed by experience and inclination to learn the myriad ways to end a life. Unlike common warriors or rogues, an Assassin does not study various fighting arts or muddle his training with martial dirty tricks, he instead studies the anatomy of the various creatures of wildly different anatomies and forms of existence, and he uses this knowledge to place his blows in areas vital for biological or mystical reasons. Stealth and sudden violence are his hallmarks, and various exotic tools and killing methods become his tools. While most societies consider assassination to be a vile art, or at best a dishonorable or unvalorous one, the reasons that drive these killers vary. Cold-hearted mercenaries share a skill set with dedicated demon-hunters, differing only in the application of their skills. Only the most naïve student of ethics believes that all killing is evil, or that nobility cannot be found in a mercifully quick death. Alignment: An Assassin may be of any alignment. Races: any Starting Gold: 6d4x10 gp (150 gold) Starting Age: As Rogue. Hit Die: d6 Class Skills: The Assassin’s skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha). Skills/Level: 6 + Intelligence Bonus BAB: Medium (3/4), Saves: Fort: Good; Reflex: Good; Will: Poor Level, Benefit 1 Poison Use, Death Attack +3d6, Personal Immunity, Spellcasting 2 Uncanny Dodge, Death Attack +4d6 3 Hide in Plain Sight, Death Attack +5d6 4 Cloak of Discretion, Death Attack +6d6 5 Traps, Trapmaking, Death Attack +7d6 6 Palm Weapon, Death Attack +8d6 7 Full Death Attack, Death Attack +9d6 8 Nerve of the Assassin, Death Attack +10d6 9 Improved Uncanny Dodge, Death Attack +11d6 10 Skill Mastery, Death Attack +12d6 11 Poisonmaster, Death Attack +13d6 12 Personal Immunity, Death Attack +14d6 13 Exotic Method, Death Attack +15d6 14 Personal Immunity, Death Attack +16d6 15 Killer’s Proof, Death Attack +17d6 16 Exotic Method, Death Attack +18d6 17 Death by a Thousand Cuts, Death Attack +19d6 18 Mind Blank, Death Attack +20d6 19 Exotic Method, Death Attack +21d6 20 Killing Strike, Death Attack +22d6 All of the following are Class Features of the Assassin class: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Assassins are proficient with all Light Weapons, as well as simple weapons, repeating crossbows, and hand crossbows. At first level, an Assassin gains proficiency with one Exotic Weapon of her choice. Assassins are proficient with Light Armor but not with shields. Spellcasting: The Assassin is an Arcane Spellcaster with the same spells per day and spells known progression as a Bard, except that he gains no more than three spell slots per level. An Assassin’s spells known may be chosen from the Sorcerer/Wizard list, and must be from the schools of Divination, Illusion, or Necromancy. To cast an Assassin spell, she must have an Intelligence at least equal to 10 + the Spell level. The DC of the Assassin's spells is Intelligence based and the bonus spells are Intelligence based. Poison Use (Ex): An Assassin may prepare, apply, and use poison without any chance of poisoning herself. Death Attack (Ex): An Assassin may spend a full-round action to study an opponent who would be denied their Dexterity bonus if she instead attacked that target. If she does so, her next attack is a Death Attack if she makes it within 1 round. A Death Attack inflicts a number of extra dice of damage equal to her Assassin level plus two dice, but only if the target is denied its Dexterity Bonus to AC against that attack. Special attacks such as a coup de grace may be a Death Attack. Assassins are well trained in eliminating magical or distant opponents, and do not have to meet the stringent requirements of a sneak attack, though if a character has both sneak attack and death attack, they stack if the character meets the requirements of both. As long as the victim is denied their dexterity against attacks from the assassin during the study action and the attack itself, it counts as a death attack. An Assassin may load a crossbow simultaneously with his action to study his target if he has a Base Attack Bonus of +1 or more. Personal Immunity (Ex): Choose four poisons, an Assassin is immune to all four of those poisons, even if they are made available in a stronger strength. At levels 5, 7, and 12 the Assassin may choose one more type of poison to become immune to. At level 14, an Assassin becomes immune to all poisons. Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, an Assassin can react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If an Assassin already has uncanny dodge from a different class he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead. Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): A 3rd level Assassin can hide in unusual locations, and may hide in areas without cover or concealment without penalty. An Assassin may even hide while being observed. This ability does not remove the -10 penalty for moving at full speed, or the -20 penalty for running or fighting. Cloak of Discretion (Su): At 4th level, an Assassin is protected by a constant Nondetection effect, with a caster level equal to his character level. Trapfinding: At 5th level, Assassins can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20. Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it. Assasins can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it. An Assassin who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it. Trapmaking: At 5th level, the Assassin learns to build simple mechanical traps in out of common materials. As long as has access to ropes, flexible material like green wood, and weapon-grade materials like sharpened wooden sticks or steel weapons, he can build an improvised trap in 10 minutes. He can build any non-magical trap on the “CR 1” trap list that doesn’t involve a pit. These traps have a Search DC equal to 20 + the Assassin’s level, have a BAB equal to his own, and are always single-use traps. He may add poison to these traps, if he has access to it, but it will dry out in an hour. Full Death Attack: At 7th level, if the Assassin studies an opponent to perform a Death Attack, she can make a full attack during the next round where every attack inflicts Death Attack damage as long as the target was denied their Dexterity bonus to AC against the first attack in the full attack action. Skill Mastery (Ex): At 10th level, an Assassin becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. When making a skill check with Climb, Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Search, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device, Use Rope, or Swim, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. Palm Weapon (Su) At 6th level, the Assassin learns to conceal weapons with supernatural skill. Any weapon successfully concealed with Sleight of Hand cannot be found with divination magic. Nerve of the Killer: At 8th level, an Assassin gains a limited immunity to compulsion and charm effects. While studying a target for a Death Attack, and for one round afterward, he counts as if he were within a protection from evil effect. This does not confer a deflection bonus to AC. Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): An Assassin of 9th level or higher can no longer be flanked. This defense denies another character the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more levels in a class that provides sneak attack than the target. If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level required to flank the character. Poisonmaster: At 11th level, the Assassin learns alchemic secrets for creating short-term poisons. By expending an entire healer’s kit worth of materials and an hour of time, he can synthesize one dose of any poison in the DMG. This poison degrades to uselessness in one week. Exotic Method At 13th, 16th, and 19th level the Assassin learns an exotic form of killing from the list below. Once chosen, this ability does not change: * Carrier: Three times per day, the Assassin can cast contagion as a swift action spell-like ability. * Poison of the Cockatrice: Twice per day, the Assassin can cast flesh to stone as a swift action spell-like ability. * Killer Faerie Arts: Twice per day, the Assassin can cast polymorph other as a swift action spell-like ability. * Proxy Assassin: Twice per day, the Assassin can cast summon monster VII as a spell-like ability. This effect lasts 10 minutes. * Death By Plane Once per day, the Assassin can cast plane shift as a spell-like ability. * Dimesional Rip:: Once per day, the Assassin can cast implosion as a spell-like ability. The duration of this effect is three rounds. * New School: The Assassin may now choose spells known from a new school. Killer’s Proof (Su): At 15th level, the Assassin learns to steal the souls of those he kills. If he is holding an onyx worth at least 100 GP when he kills an enemy, he may place their soul within the gem as if he has cast soul bind on them at the moment of their death. Death by a Thousand Cuts: At 17th level, the assassin has learned to kill even the hardiest of foes by reducing their physical form to shambles. Every successful Death attack inflicts a cumulative -2 Dexterity penalty to the Assassin’s victim. These penalties last one day. Mind Blank (Su): At 18th level, the Assassin is protected by a constant mind blank effect. Killing Strike (Su): At 20th level, the Assassin’s Death Attacks bypass his victim’s DR and hardness.
Wih 03-04-08, 11:24 PM	Alternately, this assassin is also good: I'm sorry, I started twitching when I saw that Sneak Attack progression. 2d6+d6/level? That's ...interesting. The reason Time Stop is good for Assassins is that it gives enough rounds usually to study a target. Mind you, there are some spells out now that let you study as a swift action, so it's not as useful anymore. One of my more favourite uses for Assassin is using it to meet requirements for Uncanny Trickster without dipping into a class that loses SA - you however need to bust a feat to be able to cast Mage Hand though.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-05-08, 12:23 AM	I'm sorry, I started twitching when I saw that Sneak Attack progression. 2d6+d6/level? That's ...interesting. I don't know where you are getting that. The assassin I quoted doesn't have sneak attack. It has death attack. Different mechanics. When you factor in that it takes one full round to charge up and only affects an opponent that's dneied their dex bonus from the attack (not a flanked oppoent), it's not as good as you are thinking.
unundindur 03-07-08, 10:37 PM	You aren't supposed to use flashy spells as an assassin. Don't use scorching ray. Use sleep and coup de grace. Wizard spells are excellent at what you are describing. Time stop is a silly spell to be casting in an assassination. Timestop is the "Oh ****!" button to get your buffs up when surprised (which an assassin shouldn't ever be). I am still nto quite convinced at the wizard-assassin. Sleep has a HD cap, and hardly as high a DC as a full fledged Death attack ever will (35 beeing an easy build). Even with 9th level spells I have a hard time seeing how you can boost DC-s over that of death attack. If everyone agrees on that, then what makes him better at outright killing? I again make he assumtion that as an assassin you are out for single enemies, and not killing 40 people at a time (Wail of the banshee etc.) Comparing the DCs of death attack and a 9th level spell (since damage spells seem to be less useful) this is my formula, based on both beeing semi-maximized, human and both with the same INT score. Wizard: 10 (base) +9 (spell level) +10 (intelligence) +1 (spell focus) = 30 Assassin (Rogue5/Assassin10/Dark hunter5): 10 (base) +15 (class) + 10 (stat) +2 (ability focus) +1 (assassin's dagger) +2 (bracers of murder) = 40 Now as I said, this is semi-maximized, and there well be ways to boost the wizard further, but alas usually by taking penalties as well. I assume the wizard could boost his sames a further five without beeing unreasonable, leaving us at a difference of 5, which still is significant. And I agree that timestop is a very nice spell to have as an assassin, just as its a nice spell to have as a cleric, rogue, fighter and [insert class/concept here]. I really want to see an actual mage-build for an assassin, that do not boast "dramatic" spells, and is more likely to take out single targets without beeing noticed, and with higher successrates (also given the parameters I gave in the previous post). And the bloodlines thingie mentioned also puzzles me, please explain :)
Leress 03-07-08, 10:52 PM	Wizard: 10 (base) +9 (spell level) +10 (intelligence) +1 (spell focus) = 30 Assassin (Rogue5/Assassin10/Dark hunter5): 10 (base) +15 (class) + 10 (stat) +2 (ability focus) +1 (assassin's dagger) +2 (bracers of murder) = 40 That is pretty one sided in favor of the assassin (since you gave that class a magical item and not the wizard). An assassin wizard would most likely be a specialist as well.
archerpwr 03-07-08, 11:07 PM	I am still nto quite convinced at the wizard-assassin. Sleep has a HD cap, and hardly as high a DC as a full fledged Death attack ever will (35 beeing an easy build). Even with 9th level spells I have a hard time seeing how you can boost DC-s over that of death attack. If everyone agrees on that, then what makes him better at outright killing? I again make he assumtion that as an assassin you are out for single enemies, and not killing 40 people at a time (Wail of the banshee etc.) Comparing the DCs of death attack and a 9th level spell (since damage spells seem to be less useful) this is my formula, based on both beeing semi-maximized, human and both with the same INT score. Wizard: 10 (base) +9 (spell level) +10 (intelligence) +1 (spell focus) = 30 Assassin (Rogue5/Assassin10/Dark hunter5): 10 (base) +15 (class) + 10 (stat) +2 (ability focus) +1 (assassin's dagger) +2 (bracers of murder) = 40 Now as I said, this is semi-maximized, and there well be ways to boost the wizard further, but alas usually by taking penalties as well. I assume the wizard could boost his sames a further five without beeing unreasonable, leaving us at a difference of 5, which still is significant. And I agree that timestop is a very nice spell to have as an assassin, just as its a nice spell to have as a cleric, rogue, fighter and [insert class/concept here]. I really want to see an actual mage-build for an assassin, that do not boast "dramatic" spells, and is more likely to take out single targets without beeing noticed, and with higher successrates (also given the parameters I gave in the previous post). And the bloodlines thingie mentioned also puzzles me, please explain :) Do you realize how terribly built that wizard is? That's got to be the lowest DC estimate I've ever seen including core only stuff. 1) Sleep is for assassinations at level 1. As you get higher level you use different spells. Do I have to spell out everything? You can think for yourself at times, right? 2) Int is default at least 34 if not 36 by 20. In an assassination the wizard never casts his win spell before softening up the enemy first. A high level assassination goes like so: A) Infiltrate and catch target unwatched. B) Targeted dispel magic to remove buffs or disjunction. B) Familiar (via imbue familiar with spell ability) casts enervation to reduce the target's saves further. C) Cast save or die (Baleful polymorph into a bunny has style) Yes, a heavily optimized assassin can be a better assassin than a wizard played by someone completely new to the game. You've shown that much.
ciaran 03-08-08, 12:37 AM	which is why people go Spellthief 1/Wiz 5/Unseen Seer X/Assassin 1/Ultimate Magus Y/Major Bloodline 3 and get Time Stop+Death Attack from hell. Others just play a Marrulurk (Sandstorm). What?!?! Who are these people? Who makes characters like that?
Sinfire Titan 03-08-08, 02:11 AM	What?!?! Who are these people? Who makes characters like that? Whoops, I meant Marrulurk 5/Rogue 3/Assassin 1/Death Attack PrCa 1/Death Attack PrCb 1/Death Attack PrCc 1/Major Bloodline 3/Swashbuckler X with Daring Outlaw. Then just Sneak Attack the hell out of the guy you target. But that other build can be made to work, if I felt like posting the full build. Some here mentioned bloodlines, which I don't know, so I would be very interested in hearing how they relate to any of this. Death Attack's save DC is based on class levels. You multiclass the hell out of the Assassin in question using a lot of PrCs that grant Death Attack (seeing as they would stack for the DC), get HiPS, and take a Major Bloodline, which then boosts the hell out of your DC by adding to your class levels. It is a real headache determining the math, so most people leave it up to the CO boards to figure that out.
unundindur 03-08-08, 02:24 AM	That is pretty one sided in favor of the assassin (since you gave that class a magical item and not the wizard). An assassin wizard would most likely be a specialist as well. As far as I know there aren't many items that boost the DC of spells (with the exception perhaps of illusion). I simply don't know of many items or feats that boost spell-dcs (even though I own..."some" books :rolleyes: ). I also gave the wizard +5 misc bonus to his DCs just because I assume a wizard-player could find items, feats or prcs to boost it that much.
unundindur 03-08-08, 02:34 AM	Do you realize how terribly built that wizard is? That's got to be the lowest DC estimate I've ever seen including core only stuff. 1) Sleep is for assassinations at level 1. As you get higher level you use different spells. Do I have to spell out everything? You can think for yourself at times, right? 2) Int is default at least 34 if not 36 by 20. In an assassination the wizard never casts his win spell before softening up the enemy first. A high level assassination goes like so: A) Infiltrate and catch target unwatched. B) Targeted dispel magic to remove buffs or disjunction. B) Familiar (via imbue familiar with spell ability) casts enervation to reduce the target's saves further. C) Cast save or die (Baleful polymorph into a bunny has style) Yes, a heavily optimized assassin can be a better assassin than a wizard played by someone completely new to the game. You've shown that much. Yes, it would actually be nice to have it spelled out for me, as I just cannot find any spell-combination that is more efficient on a regular basis. I can think for myself, but in this case I end up with a different conclusion, which is why I would like to hear the counter spelled out in detail :) If we set the wizards defult to 36 then we must assume the assassin to have the same, they both have intelligence as their core-stat (at least my assassin would). As far as I can see from the rest you post it relies on dispelling, familiar and another spell. I can see a hundred ways this could fail, or attract attention. First, you cannot enter anti-magic, secondly your familiar needs propper hiding and third you use a spell that as far as I know have a verbal component. And its only a mid-range spell. I can come up with better tactics than that, but it still cannot offer the sort of flexibility I would require for a professional assassin (as outlined in my first post). First and foremost, antimagic becomes a huge problem, just like fortification armour is to an assassin. The difference as I can see is that an assassin is also (given his incredible intelligence) versed in diplomacy, tumbling, hiding etc. which gives him tremendous versatility in a setting where magic is easily foiled (high level play). And regarding the DC, there is nothing preventing the assassin from having a pawn with a wand of enervation, which sort of removes that advantage. It looks like it comes down to a DC calculation, which I don't think the wizard can win without munchkinism. In the cases where a DC is not required, it tend to leave a whole lot of a mess (Otto's irresistable dance etc.)
The_Shaman 03-08-08, 06:20 AM	Sorry, but if we're talking pure flexibility, I think a wizard wins by default. Comparing an assassin's DC to a wizard's DC can work out fine for you, but doesn't acknowledge the fact that a wizard can fling spells with a lot fewer restrictions than an assassin can get out a death attack. They have the following options which iirc the assassin, mostly, lacks (except through an up-the-roof UMD check and a bucketload of money): - scrying: gathering information for the target's defenses without going there personally. Assassins eventually get locate creature, but it's way less effective. It also helps that wizards are much more adept at finding and bypassing magical traps - anything from Alarm to contingent spells. Unlike an assassin, a wizard is much better in dealing with magical barriers. A stealth specialist wizard can then proceed like an assassin, catch the enemy asleep or helpless, and coup de grace them (way higher DC than death attack, although ofc an assassin's CDG DC could be much higher). Another option is to rely on the "scry and die" strategy: locate a target and bombard them with damaging spells - i.e. opening with acid fog, then following with horrid wilting, etc. Not exactly discreet, but often effective against enemies of lower HP. - enchantment: speaking of catspaws, the wizard can really go to town with a few enchantments here. A target without much magic can simply be slain in his sleep by his own bodyguards. Charm, dominate, geas... You name it. Veteran assassins can get creative with modify memory, sure, but by then a wizard has much nicer tools to use. - Conjurations: summon a creature to kill the target when you're there - or teleporting them to the target's location. It could be something as simple as "summon a demon to devour the enemy" or an elaborate plan (via planar binding) to have outsiders weaken a foe's defenses as you move for the kill. Personally, I've thought about using a dragon ally with burrow speed, earth elementals, or invisible stalkers. It's not that the assassin is hopeless in his schtick, but I can't really agree with him being more flexible in killing than a wizard. In essence, nearly all his tactics revolve around him getting close. A wizard, with the right build - and since we are talking about PrCs on the assassin side, wizards should get some too - is not bound by neither of these, and can actually excel at breaking some of them.
sir_argenon 03-08-08, 08:27 PM	is there anything that a full wizard cant do better than anyone else?
archerpwr 03-08-08, 10:27 PM	Yes, it would actually be nice to have it spelled out for me, as I just cannot find any spell-combination that is more efficient on a regular basis. I can think for myself, but in this case I end up with a different conclusion, which is why I would like to hear the counter spelled out in detail :) If we set the wizards defult to 36 then we must assume the assassin to have the same, they both have intelligence as their core-stat (at least my assassin would). Initiative. All the dex-based skills that are needed to be undetected. Dexterity is the primary stat of a mundane assassin. If you don't have spells to help those checks out you need to win the check of your own power. For the build you cited the stat array goes like this: Dex>Int>Con>Cha>Str>Wis As far as I can see from the rest you post it relies on dispelling, familiar and another spell. I can see a hundred ways this could fail, or attract attention. First, you cannot enter anti-magic, secondly your familiar needs propper hiding and third you use a spell that as far as I know have a verbal component. And its only a mid-range spell. Antimagic is the only way the wizard will ever be assured to be negated. There are so many ways to infiltrate with magic it's not even funny. Just take my word at it that unless AMFs are involved the wizard will get in and pull of his shtick better than the assassin prestige class. I can come up with better tactics than that, but it still cannot offer the sort of flexibility I would require for a professional assassin (as outlined in my first post). First and foremost, antimagic becomes a huge problem, just like fortification armour is to an assassin. The difference as I can see is that an assassin is also (given his incredible intelligence) versed in diplomacy, tumbling, hiding etc. which gives him tremendous versatility in a setting where magic is easily foiled (high level play). Again, AMFs screw casters. That proves nothing about the assassin prestige class. How many targets are within antimagic kingdoms? Also, the wizard has a higher int than the assassin. The wizard keeps very close in skills. If the wizard is an unseen seer (as I tend to advise) the wizard has better skills than the assassin prestige class. And regarding the DC, there is nothing preventing the assassin from having a pawn with a wand of enervation, which sort of removes that advantage. And how does the assassin prestige class manage pawns better than the wizard? It looks like it comes down to a DC calculation, which I don't think the wizard can win without munchkinism. In the cases where a DC is not required, it tend to leave a whole lot of a mess (Otto's irresistable dance etc.) You don't need to have a higher DC. You need to have a better chance of making the target die. is there anything that a full wizard cant do better than anyone else? Not much.
StruckingFuggle 03-08-08, 10:59 PM	is there anything that a full wizard cant do better than anyone else? Suck and die?
Nathreet 03-08-08, 11:12 PM	http://bighugelabs.com/flickr/output/motivator6812209.jpg i see people all the time, especially on the CO boards saying that the assassin is bad. what i do not understand is why? i understand that the death attack is not very good, but they also get 5d6 SA, med BAB, poison use, Imp uncanny dodge, HIPS, and nice spontaneous utility spells. whats there not to like? Rogues get the same SA. Good for a 1 level dip tho. Rogues also get improved uncanny dodge. You don't get HIPS until CL 13. A dip in shadowdancer can give it at CL 8, tho you don't get much else. The utility spells are worthless. You can buy scrolls for next to nothing and UMD the scrolls. You can't free action featherfall, and sometimes you might need 2 rounds to UMD a utility scroll to work instead of one (probably out of combat), but that's it. So in the end you get HIPS later but w/o dipping into a class that doesn't give anything else at 1st level. And in exchange you lose a buttload of skill points and the rogue special abilities. Basically you're left with a rogue that can't skillmonkey, and sneak attack won't always carry you. Greater invis and glibness w/o spending gold on a scroll might be worth it. But you need to wait to such a high level that it probably isn't worth it. Btw, I took a 1 level dip in assasin for the SA so I can cast all the assasin spells from scrolls with high reliability (90-95%, vs. 75% for my UMD). You just roll d20 + assasin level (d20 + 1 for me) and get 1 + scroll caster level.
The_Shaman 03-09-08, 04:35 AM	Suck and die? They can, but they have to work for it.
sin shai, nagai jedi 03-09-08, 01:07 PM	personally, i'm playing an assassin right now, and i'm basicly blowing the rest of the party away in effectivness, i'm the face, if we're fighting something that can be sneak attacked (this includes contructs for me) the fights over in a few rounds thanks to assassin's darkness. i make great use of death attack in general, and a ring of cameleon power is an assassin's best friend, alterself at will makes walking away from a kill in a public area very easy.
Sunic_Flames 03-09-08, 01:33 PM	Must be a weak party. And 'a couple rounds'?
Death1942 03-10-08, 03:33 AM	what people are comparing classes on is combat. the Assassin isnt the best at direct combat. however, stick him in the middle of a town and he will walk out with loot, information and dragging the corpses of anyone who even hints at trouble for the party. the assassin shines in all other situations bar direct combat. thats not to say hes so bad he should be there. depends on ur class choice beforehand. both me and my party would not care too much if i don't have an extra 2 BAB or some awesome combat move, as long as i can swing my sword (or dagger...or both) they are happy.
The_Shaman 03-10-08, 04:09 AM	what people are comparing classes on is combat. the Assassin isnt the best at direct combat. however, stick him in the middle of a town and he will walk out with loot, information and dragging the corpses of anyone who even hints at trouble for the party. the assassin shines in all other situations bar direct combat. thats not to say hes so bad he should be there. depends on ur class choice beforehand. both me and my party would not care too much if i don't have an extra 2 BAB or some awesome combat move, as long as i can swing my sword (or dagger...or both) they are happy. Not necessarily. Besides, out of combat the assassin loses to the base class it was modeled by - the rogue. 4 more skill points/level make the rogue much more versatile than the assassin, imo.
WolfHati 03-10-08, 04:23 AM	Assassins "suck" because they are a prestige class that is more or less equal in power to continuing with the base class, a base class which is not a full spellcasting class. Since spellcasting is very powerful in 3.5e at mid and especially high level play, and the supplements have added a lot of power creep, due to super cool prestige classes of all stripes/new spells, a prestige class that is reasonably designed with in the scope of the core game is said to "suck".
Sunic_Flames 03-10-08, 10:01 AM	Assassins "suck" because they are a prestige class that is more or less equal in power to continuing with the base class, a base class which is not a full spellcasting class. Since spellcasting is very powerful in 3.5e at mid and especially high level play, and the supplements have added a lot of power creep, due to super cool prestige classes of all stripes/new spells, a prestige class that is reasonably designed with in the scope of the core game is said to "suck". Well, Archmage is still worth taking. Most of the other stuff never was though. Assassin: Loses to Rogues, a base class. It makes a nice capstone I guess. Arcane Trickster: By hybrid class standards, actually not that bad. Still doesn't change the fact you have to lose out on at least 3 levels of spellcasting for it. Therefore, still a sucker bet. Arcane Archer: Main flaw is it's a hybrid class that doesn't advance spellcasting at all. Not that familiar with it, but it's also easy to see that half its class features are negated by a 3rd level spell slot (Greater Magic Weapon). Blackguard: No. Just no. If for no other reason than anything that requires you waste character resources on something clearly counterproductive (becoming better at breaking your own stuff) is not worth it on principle. Course, that's far from the only flaw... Dragon Disciple: Let's take an LA 3 template and spread it out over 10 levels!!!!!111111111 :rolleyes: Duelist: It's centered around an extremely subpar fighting style. What do you expect? Dwarven Defender: Walk briskly now! Escape the suckitude. Eldritch Knight: Decent little gish thing, though gishes are not a core only archetype. Heirophant: It's Archmage, for divine types. Wait, what do you mean no spellcasting advancement? *headdesk* Horizon Walker: I dunno what to make of this. Loremaster: O.o See above. Mystic Theurge: It does reduce the suckitude of something normally unplayable. Still though, it's a hybrid and hybrids tend not to come out well. Shadowdancer: Yay for HiPS dips! Wait, what do you mean I have to take two low end feats first? Thaumaturgist: Summoner goodness. Nice. Oh and then there's the reprinted Red Wizard. Main flaw there is most DMs won't allow it on the basis that it's too strong. Note that very few of these were actually made obsolete, that is to say they sucked regardless, or are still good regardless.
The_Shaman 03-10-08, 01:23 PM	All in all, the DMG has some okay-ish PrCs, and some rather craptacular ones. I wouldn't use the Dragon Disciple unless its spellcasting either gets converted into real levels like Dragon 318 did with the Eunuch Warlock, or auto-[I]gives you sorcerer levels like the Dragon Devotee. Still, some of its classes do merit attention Arcane trickster can be good, actually, if you get another PrC that improves sneak attack - such as daggerspell mage or unseen seer, or if you have simply decided to tack a little casting on a rogue build. Loremaster is decent, but not incredible - still, a solid choice for wizards and a sub-par one for bards. Horizon walker is often considered a dip, but a useful one for many archers due to the ability that lets you cast dimension door every 1d4 rounds. Blackguard... is special. I mean I can't in all honesty call it weak, as it can be quite decent - sneak attack, full BAB, a little casting, a companion - but it requires a fairly mature outlook due to its special evil prerequisites.
Sunic_Flames 03-10-08, 01:44 PM	Well given the nature of the question I was looking at them in the context of core only. Something good when combined with non core stuff isn't any less good of course, but delving outside of core invalidates the example set. And mostly, I bashed the Blackguard on the grounds Improved Sunder being considered a benefit (and therefore existing as a feat) is utterly laughable, and one of the strong indicators the core books were written by outsiders - that is to say, people that haven't actually played their own stuff. Blackguard forces you to take it, along with a diminishing returns type feat (cleave). At least stuff like Alertness and Toughness has some positive benefit, however trivial and diminishing it may be. Feat = drawback? Um, no.
Gray Scholar 03-10-08, 03:38 PM	Arcane Trickster: By hybrid class standards, actually not that bad. Still doesn't change the fact you have to lose out on at least 3 levels of spellcasting for it. Therefore, still a sucker bet.I might be off by a few levels, but try something like Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 2/Arcane Trickster 10/Spellwarp Sniper 2. That should get you 19 levels of casting and +8d6 sneak attack by 20th level.
dndfencer 03-10-08, 04:02 PM	Simplest solution for assassin build is warblade or swordsage (for a combat killer) or sorc, dread necro, or beguiler (for spellcasting assassins). The ninth level tigerclaw power is just about the cheapest death spell or ability because the dc is 19 + str, which is really easy to boost sky high. With just a 40 str (half-dragon or draconic orc and lots of magic items) and a feat you can get dc 36 and that strength is useful for other things too (with TWF and the raging mongoose boost you're looking at 10-12 attacks per round). Definetely not a subtle character but they'll get the job done (especially if they have access to shadow hand maneuvers). As for spell casting assassin's the beguiler is excellent because of all the illusion and enchantment spells but might have a hard time actually finishing the guy off because of a lack of offensive spells. The sorc is good because they can get a mix of everything, although not much of any one thing. The Dread Necro is good because of all their death spells although many of their abilities are useless on a stealth mission and they don't have any stealth spells. There may be better builds around that are highly complex (like the unseen seer) but these simple builds work great and they aren't too specialized.