Astral Deva? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Astral Deva? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
justbekuz
08-18-07, 04:16 PM I'm looking for some opinions and or input as to whether or not the Astral Deva template in the back of the Savage Species book is to be used as a player character. From looking at the template, I would say no; but this has become a topic of discussion.
Witch
08-18-07, 05:08 PM It's not a template, it's a savage progression, and it's intended for use by players in campaigns where DMs are comfortable with odd characters.
Jaxgaret
08-18-07, 05:17 PM It is fine as a PC. Definitely weaker than a straight Cleric.

It doesn't really do anything in particular very well. It's actually best compared to a Monk - with its good defenses, high mobility, all good saves, medium BAB/HP, and mediocre damage output. It does have better skills than a Monk, and some useful powers. I would peg it as an upgrade over a Monk, but nothing nearly game-breaking. The loss of HD really hurts it, especially at higher levels.
justbekuz
08-18-07, 06:29 PM Well my main hangups with the class is the fact that they get to add 44 points to their stats by the time they are level 20 and can cast a couple very powerful priest spells at will as much as they want. Now that's not necessarily game breaking, but it is quite a big bonus compared to just about any other normal or odd class that is not included in those monster templates in the back of the Savage Species book.
Jaxgaret
08-18-07, 07:22 PM Well my main hangups with the class is the fact that they get to add 44 points to their stats by the time they are level 20

Which is why they have an LA of +8. They lose 8 whole HD worth of skills, HP, BAB, and saves. Without the ability score bonuses, they'd be useless. In other words - it's already taken into account.

and can cast a couple very powerful priest spells at will as much as they want. Now that's not necessarily game breaking, but it is quite a big bonus compared to just about any other normal or odd class that is not included in those monster templates in the back of the Savage Species book.

At 10th level they can cast Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Remove Fear, Aid, Continual Flame, and Detect Evil at will. Color me underwhelmed.

At 20th they get Holy Word and Holy Aura at will, but that's not broken at all at that high a level.
runestar
08-18-07, 10:24 PM I think they would make excellent support characters. There are some minor errors in their statblock, but nothing you can't iron out (they are missing +8dex, and won't become large, for example).

Great if you need a 5th PC to round out your character (though I would personally go for ghaele).
Jaxgaret
08-18-07, 11:15 PM I think they would make excellent support characters. There are some minor errors in their statblock, but nothing you can't iron out (they are missing +8dex, and won't become large, for example).

Great if you need a 5th PC to round out your character (though I would personally go for ghaele).

They become Large at 19th level, IIRC.

As I stated above, it is one of the Astral Deva's weaknesses that they are not good at any one particular thing - though I would not put them in the class of "5th-wheel support" classes with the Bard, Marshal, Dragon Shaman, etc. due to the fact that they do not have any strict supporting abilities.

They do not really fill one of the four iconic roles, just as the Monk that I compared them to does not either. Both fall closest to filling the 'skilled character' role, but not as well as other skilled characters, and without Trapfinding to boot.

I will agree that they are best in a party of 5 or more, so that they do not occupy as a generalist a slot that really needs to be filled by a specialist.
runestar
08-19-07, 12:32 AM They become Large at 19th level, IIRC.

Well yes, my point was that they shouldn't.

Well, it will have an excellent AC (due to its +15NA) and racial dex bonus (how do you think it should be staggered in the progression?), which hopefully helps make up for its low HD (and consequently, hp).

They have an array of SLAs useable at will.

Planeshift at will translates to free healing for the whole party (by transporting them to the positive energy plane).
Aid on everyone prior to each battle is always useful (not even a cleric can replicate this on a consistent basis).
Remove curse/disease at will is always good to have.
The utility offered by the equivalent of constant detect lies is not too bad either.
Continual flame at will - not that great, but being able to circumvent the material component is neat.

Sr30 translates to roughly 10+ECL. You won't find a better deal anywhere (few SS progressions have sr worth acquiring since LA generally makes it useless anyways).

I am guessing protective aura won't be that useful later on (since everyone will probably be acquiring cloak of resistance+5/ring of protection+5), but you do get it early enough for it to still be of some benefit to the PCs. Constant magic circle at 5th lv and minor globe at 7th lv - can't beat that.

At epic lvs, they might even become comparable with fighters once they have some class lvs under their belt, since LA does not interfere with bab/saves. An astral deva with 8 fighter lvs might not be that bad compared to fighter28, since its stat mods help it stack up to epic bab/saves progression.

It seems viable in a low lv campaign as well, since it gets full HD advancement for the first 5 lvs, and gets quite a number of nice benefits. The SS progression clearly has it breakpoints where certain points seem more attractive than others, but overall, still seems fairly playable.:)
Jaxgaret
08-19-07, 01:02 AM Well yes, my point was that they shouldn't.

Ha. You're right. There's a fair few things that are different from the Astral Deva in the MM.

Well, it will have an excellent AC (due to its +15NA) and racial dex bonus (how do you think it should be staggered in the progression?), which hopefully helps make up for its low HD (and consequently, hp).

The +8 to Con partially makes up for the loss of HD. I would give them +2 to Dex the level before each +Int increase - 7, 10, 13, 16.

They have an array of SLAs useable at will.

Planeshift at will translates to free healing for the whole party (by transporting them to the positive energy plane).

Here's one point where the SS progression differs from the MM one - SS Astral Deva PCs don't get Plane Shift as a Deva Power.

Sr30 translates to roughly 10+ECL. You won't find a better deal anywhere (few SS progressions have sr worth acquiring since LA generally makes it useless anyways).

Agreed. SR 10+CL is excellent.

It seems viable in a low lv campaign as well, since it gets full HD advancement for the first 5 lvs, and gets quite a number of nice benefits. The SS progression clearly has it breakpoints where certain points seem more attractive than others, but overall, still seems fairly playable.:)

The first 5 levels are definitely the cream of the crop. An Astral Deva character would probably be better off started at a level a fair bit higher than 1.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
justbekuz 08-18-07, 04:16 PM	I'm looking for some opinions and or input as to whether or not the Astral Deva template in the back of the Savage Species book is to be used as a player character. From looking at the template, I would say no; but this has become a topic of discussion.
Witch 08-18-07, 05:08 PM	It's not a template, it's a savage progression, and it's intended for use by players in campaigns where DMs are comfortable with odd characters.
Jaxgaret 08-18-07, 05:17 PM	It is fine as a PC. Definitely weaker than a straight Cleric. It doesn't really do anything in particular very well. It's actually best compared to a Monk - with its good defenses, high mobility, all good saves, medium BAB/HP, and mediocre damage output. It does have better skills than a Monk, and some useful powers. I would peg it as an upgrade over a Monk, but nothing nearly game-breaking. The loss of HD really hurts it, especially at higher levels.
justbekuz 08-18-07, 06:29 PM	Well my main hangups with the class is the fact that they get to add 44 points to their stats by the time they are level 20 and can cast a couple very powerful priest spells at will as much as they want. Now that's not necessarily game breaking, but it is quite a big bonus compared to just about any other normal or odd class that is not included in those monster templates in the back of the Savage Species book.
Jaxgaret 08-18-07, 07:22 PM	Well my main hangups with the class is the fact that they get to add 44 points to their stats by the time they are level 20 Which is why they have an LA of +8. They lose 8 whole HD worth of skills, HP, BAB, and saves. Without the ability score bonuses, they'd be useless. In other words - it's already taken into account. and can cast a couple very powerful priest spells at will as much as they want. Now that's not necessarily game breaking, but it is quite a big bonus compared to just about any other normal or odd class that is not included in those monster templates in the back of the Savage Species book. At 10th level they can cast Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Remove Fear, Aid, Continual Flame, and Detect Evil at will. Color me underwhelmed. At 20th they get Holy Word and Holy Aura at will, but that's not broken at all at that high a level.
runestar 08-18-07, 10:24 PM	I think they would make excellent support characters. There are some minor errors in their statblock, but nothing you can't iron out (they are missing +8dex, and won't become large, for example). Great if you need a 5th PC to round out your character (though I would personally go for ghaele).
Jaxgaret 08-18-07, 11:15 PM	I think they would make excellent support characters. There are some minor errors in their statblock, but nothing you can't iron out (they are missing +8dex, and won't become large, for example). Great if you need a 5th PC to round out your character (though I would personally go for ghaele). They become Large at 19th level, IIRC. As I stated above, it is one of the Astral Deva's weaknesses that they are not good at any one particular thing - though I would not put them in the class of "5th-wheel support" classes with the Bard, Marshal, Dragon Shaman, etc. due to the fact that they do not have any strict supporting abilities. They do not really fill one of the four iconic roles, just as the Monk that I compared them to does not either. Both fall closest to filling the 'skilled character' role, but not as well as other skilled characters, and without Trapfinding to boot. I will agree that they are best in a party of 5 or more, so that they do not occupy as a generalist a slot that really needs to be filled by a specialist.
runestar 08-19-07, 12:32 AM	They become Large at 19th level, IIRC. Well yes, my point was that they shouldn't. Well, it will have an excellent AC (due to its +15NA) and racial dex bonus (how do you think it should be staggered in the progression?), which hopefully helps make up for its low HD (and consequently, hp). They have an array of SLAs useable at will. Planeshift at will translates to free healing for the whole party (by transporting them to the positive energy plane). Aid on everyone prior to each battle is always useful (not even a cleric can replicate this on a consistent basis). Remove curse/disease at will is always good to have. The utility offered by the equivalent of constant detect lies is not too bad either. Continual flame at will - not that great, but being able to circumvent the material component is neat. Sr30 translates to roughly 10+ECL. You won't find a better deal anywhere (few SS progressions have sr worth acquiring since LA generally makes it useless anyways). I am guessing protective aura won't be that useful later on (since everyone will probably be acquiring cloak of resistance+5/ring of protection+5), but you do get it early enough for it to still be of some benefit to the PCs. Constant magic circle at 5th lv and minor globe at 7th lv - can't beat that. At epic lvs, they might even become comparable with fighters once they have some class lvs under their belt, since LA does not interfere with bab/saves. An astral deva with 8 fighter lvs might not be that bad compared to fighter28, since its stat mods help it stack up to epic bab/saves progression. It seems viable in a low lv campaign as well, since it gets full HD advancement for the first 5 lvs, and gets quite a number of nice benefits. The SS progression clearly has it breakpoints where certain points seem more attractive than others, but overall, still seems fairly playable.:)
Jaxgaret 08-19-07, 01:02 AM	Well yes, my point was that they shouldn't. Ha. You're right. There's a fair few things that are different from the Astral Deva in the MM. Well, it will have an excellent AC (due to its +15NA) and racial dex bonus (how do you think it should be staggered in the progression?), which hopefully helps make up for its low HD (and consequently, hp). The +8 to Con partially makes up for the loss of HD. I would give them +2 to Dex the level before each +Int increase - 7, 10, 13, 16. They have an array of SLAs useable at will. Planeshift at will translates to free healing for the whole party (by transporting them to the positive energy plane). Here's one point where the SS progression differs from the MM one - SS Astral Deva PCs don't get Plane Shift as a Deva Power. Sr30 translates to roughly 10+ECL. You won't find a better deal anywhere (few SS progressions have sr worth acquiring since LA generally makes it useless anyways). Agreed. SR 10+CL is excellent. It seems viable in a low lv campaign as well, since it gets full HD advancement for the first 5 lvs, and gets quite a number of nice benefits. The SS progression clearly has it breakpoints where certain points seem more attractive than others, but overall, still seems fairly playable.:) The first 5 levels are definitely the cream of the crop. An Astral Deva character would probably be better off started at a level a fair bit higher than 1.