Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yue Ryong 05-24-06, 09:49 PM	I'm going to make this plain and simple: How much would I need to take off of a Monk to warrant granting it Full BAB? I like Monk flavour, I like it more or less how it is in that sense, but I want it to be a viable melee combat type, rather than a pure caster killer. Please, do NOT point me to JasperDM's Martial Artist. I've seen it, I like it, but I want to keep Monk flavour & it's far too bland in my opinion.
Nephlite 05-24-06, 11:17 PM	I'm going to make this plain and simple: How much would I need to take off of a Monk to warrant granting it Full BAB? I like Monk flavour, I like it more or less how it is in that sense, but I want it to be a viable melee combat type, rather than a pure caster killer. Please, do NOT point me to JasperDM's Martial Artist. I've seen it, I like it, but I want to keep Monk flavour & it's far too bland in my opinion. Take away Flurry of Blows and lower Unarmed damage maybe by one step. That is the most I'd see needed.
Silverthumb128 05-25-06, 12:36 AM	Take away Flurry of Blows and lower Unarmed damage maybe by one step. That is the most I'd see needed. I'd agree to that, yeah.
Vaelan 05-25-06, 02:08 AM	I don't think you need to decrease unarmed damage. The increase in unarmed damage is to make up for the fact that a Monk can't enchant their fists as easily. Flurry is what makes up for a Monk being a combat-oriented class with only average BAB.
Neeek 05-25-06, 02:23 AM	Nothing, The Monk should have full BAB as it is.
The Hive Custodian 05-25-06, 02:29 AM	I actually don't think taking off Flurry is quite enough. While Flurry might have an edge on flat full-round damage, once you throw feat requirements, standard attacks, Two-Weapon Fighting, and grappling and other BAB-based manuevers into the mix, I'd say BAB comes out on top.
Arem_K 05-25-06, 02:33 AM	Nothing, The Monk should have full BAB as it is. Agreed.
Bulletproof_Condom 05-25-06, 02:42 AM	How about losing quivering palm and empty body and perfect self and all the weird ones, and adding in some more monk bonus feats. That and a slightly lower unarmed damage would be a sufficient power down to warrant full BAB.
RPGhaulsass 05-25-06, 03:37 AM	Nice one! So if you remove all the best abilities of the monk, he might be allowed full BAB.
Yue Ryong 05-25-06, 03:48 PM	I have to say, I'm tending to agree with the people saying it should get it anyway. What about dropping the Will save and the skill points? Or just the Will save and remove any chance to enchant their fists (Gauntlets, ward censures, natural weapon boosters, etc.) without resorting to the Kensai or similar classes.
Bulletproof_Condom 05-25-06, 03:57 PM	Nice one! So if you remove all the best abilities of the monk, he might be allowed full BAB.Yeah. Maybe. Or you could just take four levels of fighter first.
Yue Ryong 05-25-06, 04:03 PM	Yeah. Maybe. Or you could just take four levels of fighter first. That's not the point. It's not about the number of attacks. It's about a trained, dedicated fighter being no better at aiming their chosen weapons than a jumped up choirboy with magic to fall back on. Edit: Ok, I give. The Cleric is not the Monk's fault. I don't think that a Monk should have the same chance to hit on a single attack as a Bard of all things.
Yue Ryong 05-25-06, 09:51 PM	:Bump:
Neeek 05-25-06, 09:56 PM	That's not the point. It's not about the number of attacks. It's about a trained, dedicated fighter being no better at aiming their chosen weapons than a jumped up choirboy with magic to fall back on. Edit: Ok, I give. The Cleric is not the Monk's fault. I don't think that a Monk should have the same chance to hit on a single attack as a Bard of all things. They don't. Bards have their musical abilities, which make them *more* likely to hit than a Monk.
Yue Ryong 05-25-06, 09:58 PM	They don't. Bards have their musical abilities, which make them *more* likely to hit than a Monk. Please, don't make this any worse than it is. I am fully aware that Bards are actually better at hitting things, due to their ability to buff themselves. I just wanted to leave that out as it wasn't the point.
Fuzzy_Logic 05-25-06, 11:23 PM	It depends on how powerful you think monks are already, and how much you want to "push" their power level. ranger becomes a good class to cpmare them to. boht have skills, full BAB, supernatural abilities and a sub-optimal combat style. I'd say give up flurry of blows, quivering palm, and that ought to be jsut about balanced. maybe one or two other random abilities if need be. but just flurry and quiver oughta be fine. My only caveat: it won't unbalance single-classed monk, but it will make multiclassing your monk a much mroe attractive opposition, since you no longer suffer rounding error and don't need monk levels to get the improved flurries. definitely do NOT imcrease the BAB of monk PRCs. I'd either enforc ethe normal monk multiclass restrictions (which i usually ignore) or take a long, hard look at some multiclass monks (/cleric and /wizard both just got a lot mroe attractive) before doing it.
Yue Ryong 05-26-06, 12:10 AM	I have to say, despite it not being the point of this discussion, I am quite fond of flurry. Perhaps the speed increase or abundant step, instead?
Nephlite 05-26-06, 12:19 AM	ranger becomes a good class to cpmare them to. boht have skills, full BAB, supernatural abilities and a sub-optimal combat style. I'd say give up flurry of blows, quivering palm, and that ought to be jsut about balanced. maybe one or two other random abilities if need be. Sure Flurry is just to make up for 3/4th bab. My only caveat: it won't unbalance single-classed monk, but it will make multiclassing your monk a much mroe attractive opposition, since you no longer suffer rounding error and don't need monk levels to get the improved flurries. definitely do NOT imcrease the BAB of monk PRCs. No one is trying to increase Prc only base. You never suffered Rounding error. ) bab: Monk level 1 0+ Fihter 1 +1 bab =1. Rounding doesn't enter equation. I'd either enforc ethe normal monk multiclass restrictions (which i usually ignore) or take a long, hard look at some multiclass monks (/cleric and /wizard both just got a lot mroe attractive) before doing it. Cleric/Druids can afford Monks belt which gives same benefit +1. Monk's Belt gives Wisdom bonus +1 AC when not wearing armor.
Yue Ryong 05-26-06, 01:28 PM	How's about this: Full BAB for removing Abundant step, Still Mind & Improved Evasion (keeps regular evasion, gets it at level that you would gain Improved)?
supernerd8916 05-26-06, 01:38 PM	How's about this: Full BAB for removing Abundant step, Still Mind & Improved Evasion (keeps regular evasion, gets it at level that you would gain Improved)? throw in wholeness or purity of body, bump evasion up to 9, possibly reduce unarmed damage and you should be fine.
Yue Ryong 05-26-06, 02:16 PM	Purity of body gone & Evasion at 9, then. Fair enough.
warlocke10 05-26-06, 05:12 PM	Ok, this is my first post ever, so be kind... And I know this is a clunky mechanic so maybe someone wiser than I could find a way to make it smoother, but what about keeping the 3/4 BAB but allowing full BAB for weapons they were previously allowed to flurry with. This way you have an ability SIMILAR to flurry and still represents the Monk's flavor of specialized training. Thoughts?
Yue Ryong 05-26-06, 06:40 PM	Ok, this is my first post ever, so be kind... And I know this is a clunky mechanic so maybe someone wiser than I could find a way to make it smoother, but what about keeping the 3/4 BAB but allowing full BAB for weapons they were previously allowed to flurry with. This way you have an ability SIMILAR to flurry and still represents the Monk's flavor of specialized training. Thoughts? Interesting, but cumbersome.
supernerd8916 05-26-06, 08:58 PM	I would say change it to a +1 bonus at first level, +2 at 5th level, +3 at 9th level, etc.
Fuzzy_Logic 05-27-06, 11:54 PM	Interesting, but cumbersome. How about we get awya form the whole "lots of attacks" thing. I know we all like the idea of lightning fast kung-fu, but many real martila artists are also focused on striking rpecise areas. plus, monks in D&D tend to mvoe anyway. How about this: drop flurry, keep BAB at 3/4, and gives monks an ability called "Martial Arts mastery" which gives them +1 to hit with unarmed and martial arts weapons at level 1, 5, 9, 13, and 17? in other words, they end up with BAB 15, but a +5 to hit with approved weapons. only three attacks, but only one if they mvoe anyway, so who cares?
Yue Ryong 05-28-06, 07:46 AM	How about we get awya form the whole "lots of attacks" thing. I know we all like the idea of lightning fast kung-fu, but many real martila artists are also focused on striking rpecise areas. plus, monks in D&D tend to mvoe anyway. How about this: drop flurry, keep BAB at 3/4, and gives monks an ability called "Martial Arts mastery" which gives them +1 to hit with unarmed and martial arts weapons at level 1, 5, 9, 13, and 17? in other words, they end up with BAB 15, but a +5 to hit with approved weapons. only three attacks, but only one if they mvoe anyway, so who cares? Because it feels like a nerf on a class that needs a powerup instead.
wolfie-kun 05-28-06, 08:24 AM	For a full BAB flurry would have to be dropped. +20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5 is just stupid. Throw in TWF and you've got more attacks than you'll ever need. Beyond that, dropping quivering palm would be useless, as no one ever uses it anyway. It's not a balancing factor to get rid of a bad or unused ability (unless you happen to like it, I personally never got a good chance to use it at all, particularly with the 1/week restriction). I'd say that the speed bonus should be reduced slightly, to +10ft every four levels. Unarmed damage should also stay at 1d6 for one level longer, keeping 2d10 from being achieved. The bonus feat at 6th level should then be moved to 8th (regardless of which one you choose, a good BAB makes each one look much better, and much stronger). Replace Flurry with Decisive Strike at an unchanging -2 attack penalty would round everything out (Decisive Strike is merely double unarmed damage as a full attack action), as it would be useful at lower levels, but slightly less so twoard higher levels, and would definitely remain balanced. I hope it's not against CoC to post just that much of the ability...
Arkan_Shadesfire 05-28-06, 09:27 AM	God I hate it when someone asks a question and everyone ignores what they asked for and tells them to go with something else instead... The thing is, Flurry of Blows is TWF--only weaker because it only works with a monk's special weapons. TWF with light weapons and the TWF feat has the same -2 penalty as a flurry of blows--and last time I checked, every single monk weapon is light. A Ranger with the TWF fighting style can "flurry" better than a monk! As for how you could balance giving a monk a full BAB and keeping all their abilities... ...Well, probably the easiest way would be to limit their weapon proficiencies--which makes sense: You're trading knowlege of many different weapons for focused skill with just a few. Keep the six flurryable weapons, (Kama, Nunchaku, Quarterstaff, Sai, Shuriken, and Siangham) and let them choose two other simple weapons--that alone would be enough. Although, if you really hated monks, I guess you could just drop all the weapons except the flurryable ones. Half the time you're probably going to be using your unarmed strike anyway, so reducing your weapon proficiecnies doesn't affect the flavor of the monk class that much--if that's what you're trying to maintain--but not having the option of picking up that +5 mace of disruption or magic crossbow your party just found can definitely hurt enough to justify a full BAB.
Popinjay 05-30-06, 02:59 AM	If you want to keep the martial arts flavor of the monk, I would suggest something else. I agree that the monk is a bit underpowered compared to other classes, but it SHOULD be harder to hit with a fit than a sword because of reach. I would suggest a monk only feat granted at level 4: Combination strike: Every consecutive round that a monk strike the same opponent she does 1 point of additional damage per hit. This represents the ability of the monk to force her opponent into awkward positions when she is successful. The combination strike bonus is reset to 0 as soon as the monk either misses with all attacks in the round, attacks a different opponent, makes no strikes in a round, or uses a special strike such as quivering palm or stunning fist. Additionally you can consider this as a feat which can only be purchased by a monk. Pre-req: Dodge, evasion, and dex 15+ Acrobatic evasion: If an opponent strikes at a monk and misses, the monk may use the opportunity to acrobatically evade with tumbles, flips, and jumps to a space up to 5 5ft squares away. If this move would provoke an attack of opportunity the opportunity attacker must roll higher than 3 on a d6 to attempt the attack. I would also allow the monk to add his dex bonus to grapple checks at level 5 or greater. It makes sense that a monk would have more experience grappling than a normal warrior and it always seemed to me that dexterity is just as important when grappling as brute strength.
Elemental_Master 05-30-06, 07:18 AM	I love the monk and flurry but truth be told you let a monk keep flurry with full BAB and your hitting 20/20/20/15/10 now how's that fair? Flurry for full is onlly option. 20/15/10/5 vs. 15/15/15/10/5 sounds fair? Sorry but i like looking at level 20
Neeek 05-30-06, 07:55 AM	I love the monk and flurry but truth be told you let a monk keep flurry with full BAB and your hitting 20/20/20/15/10 now how's that fair? Flurry for full is onlly option. 20/15/10/5 vs. 15/15/15/10/5 sounds fair? Sorry but i like looking at level 20 Looking at level 20 is like looking at a Bentley. Kinda neat, but mostly pointless. However, 20/20/20/15/10/5 is actually not as good as it looks. While you are probably better than the fighter, you are still not as good as the cleric or druid at melee. And the fighter gets to use any artifact weapons you happen to run into, which actually counts for more than you'd think at that level.
starfire311 05-30-06, 09:24 AM	personally, I think the difference between full BAB and medium BAB is about 5 feats/class abilities. I would count flurry as 3 class abilities... so if you dropped flurry, then just nerf speed or unarmed damage or drop 2 other abilities it should be good. how I would do it. Lose flurry Lose Still Mind Lose purity of Body
Yue Ryong 05-31-06, 10:39 PM	personally, I think the difference between full BAB and medium BAB is about 5 feats/class abilities. I would count flurry as 3 class abilities... so if you dropped flurry, then just nerf speed or unarmed damage or drop 2 other abilities it should be good. how I would do it. Lose flurry Lose Still Mind Lose purity of Body This, of course, is running on the assumption that the Monk is balanced as is. It isn't. It badly needs enough of a powerup to make up for the fact that it's really only good for caster killing and escaping from dungeons where the guards have been smart enough to disarm you. I think that a bump up to full BAB pushes it slightly over the mark for balance, so I think it should lose one or two relatively minor abilities. Slowfall, Still Mind & possibly Purity of Body.
starfire311 06-01-06, 09:23 AM	This, of course, is running on the assumption that the Monk is balanced as is. It isn't. It badly needs enough of a powerup to make up for the fact that it's really only good for caster killing and escaping from dungeons where the guards have been smart enough to disarm you. I think that a bump up to full BAB pushes it slightly over the mark for balance, so I think it should lose one or two relatively minor abilities. Slowfall, Still Mind & possibly Purity of Body. so you don't think Flurry and Full BAB is too good... I dunno +20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5 attack line seems awful good.
R-man 06-01-06, 10:23 AM	Actually the question you have to ask is this; is the problem that the monk needs more attacks or that he needs to hit better? If it is the former then I would have to disagree with making any changes to the monk. However I think the problem is the latter, the monks difficulty with getting enchanted gloves and simply being able to hit is the more common problem. In that case all you need to do is give the monk a bonus at a higher level say around 5th level that gives them a scaling bonus to hit (call it a luck bonus or perhaps a nameless bonus) This means that they aren't getting a better BAB, they aren't getting more attks and they aren't getting early access to prestige classes. Make the bonus something like a +1 to hit at 5th level and every 4 levels of straight monk thereafter. This would mean that a 20th level monk would have an attk bonus 1 less then a equal level fighter. It would also discourage dipping into monk for a couple of levels as 1st level monk would still be a 0bab level. The other thing that is needed is to make a glove an enchantable weapon usable by monks only (ala neverwinter nights) sometimes we have to take inspiration from whatever sources we can find. Incidentally I am playing a Bard in a party consisting of a Monk a Rogue/Ranger and a Cleric. The effectiveness of the Bardic song with a bunch of 3/4 BAB characters is very scary! The Monk is much much more viable when he can suddenly start hitting on a regular basis.
Yue Ryong 06-01-06, 10:36 AM	so you don't think Flurry and Full BAB is too good... I dunno +20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5 attack line seems awful good.It's good, but it's limited. A monk is at it's best when gappling (something they'll actually be able to do well with full BAB) or doing a lot of moving. Flurry is only really for use against singular Huge or larger foes, things you can't grapple and when you've somehow ended up slap bang in the middle of about 5 or 6 relatively weak enemies. Perhaps if we were to leave flurry in place, but to remove greater flurry? 5 attacks, 2 of them at full BAB. There is another reason for full BAB, as well: Combat Expertise. Monks need this feat to stay alive with any consistancy, their AC is simply too low otherwise.