average melee damage? - fighter, 10th level [Archive] - Wizards Community

average melee damage? - fighter, 10th level [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fokker07
04-07-05, 03:14 PM im working on a rather complicated fighter6/rogue4 build, but i don't have a good feel for how much damage a 10th level melee character (fighter) should be doing. im basically trying to build a wily fighter rather than a strong rogue. he's also highly specialized in fighting bipeds his size.

im building the character more for tricks, so my feats are eaten up by just about everything besides weapon finesse, weapon spec, and weapon focus. i just need to know if this build is competitive or weak.

but mainly im trying to take advantage of attacks of opportunity and sneak attack. here are the feats and how his attacks will work.

his feats and relevant abilities are (i have an extra feat from a flaw):
combat reflexes
expertise
-improved trip
dodge
-mobility
power attack
-cleave
improved unarmed combat
two weapon fight

sneak attack +2d6
evasion
uncanny dodge
AC23 (+3 elven chain)
speed: 6
hit points: 78

flaw: shaky - 2 ranged attacks

two handed attack
weapon: bastard sword +2
to-hit: +16
damage: 1d10+9
20 strength (16 strength + belt of giant strength +4)
+16 to hit (9 base attack, +2 bastard sword, +5 strength)

two weapon attack for full attacks (sword and punch)
weapon: bastard sword +2/punch/bastard sword +2
to-hit: +14/+12/+9
damage: 1d10+7/1d3+2/1d10+7

here is how he works in combat:
on the move
using elusive target, expertise, combat reflexes, mobility and improved trip, he tries to activate his attack of opportunities. he moves out of threatened squares with his expertise at full and mobility to give him a 32 AC with the intention of using the elusive target feat ability, cause overreach. when enemies make AoO's and miss, he may make his improved trip roll with a +9. if he trips them, he immediately gets his two handed bastard sword attack at 1d10+9. to top it off, after i pull off some successful trips as AoO's, i can choose to move back to the previous square (since im still in movement) and attempt more AoO's as they stand. when im really lucky, i will be able to use it 4 times due to combat reflexes, and possibly even get a cleave in there.

btw, the advantage of cause overreach over normal tripping is you don't have a chance of getting countertripped if you fail a tripping attempt.

flanking
this character will always try to flank enemies with his dwarven fighter and human rogue/fighter companion so he can get his +2d6 sneak attack in. i have used two weapon fighting and improved unarmed combat to allow my character to use his sneak attack damage as much as possible without having to go through the trouble of drawing a weapon. i plan on getting more sneak attack damage as i level up, but i need this framework here first. while a punch on its own isnt much damage, it is a way to deliver more sneak attack dice.

so, do you think my character will be competitive? and if i happened to get any feats/rules wrong, please let me know.
amoeba
04-07-05, 03:20 PM I haven't played in a while and back when I played I mostly played casters but can you sneak attack with a 2 handed bastard sword?
Fokker07
04-07-05, 03:23 PM i havent heard anything to the contrary.
Ibbins
04-07-05, 03:32 PM concerning combat reflexes/aoo: since they nerfed AoO after 3.0(in which entering threatened area provoked an aoo), what are good ways to get in a lot of aoos, or to take advantage of combat reflexes?
In 3.0 you could attack, run back 10 feet, and get an AoO when they followed(you get an advantage tho with mobility feat), but what can you do in 3.5?

concerning sneak attack: there is no rule limiting it to 1hand weaps.

for calculating average damage output, there's some program floating around on these boards that some guy made; it calcs average damage based on your stats and opponents AC...if I ever find it(search is still dead) i'll post it.
Tony Vargas
04-07-05, 04:55 PM Looks like you should be doing fine for damage output. When you can sneak attack, you can double-up on the 2d6 from SA by TWF (and, you could use armor spikes or a spiked guantlet, y'know). When that's not an option, you can two-hand the bastard sword.

Your 20 STR seems reasonable for the level. If you were a half-orc you might have a 22 by now. :shrug:

When two-handing, you'd be 1.5 behind for bastard vs greatsword, and 2 more for weapon specialization - or 3.5 points behind a dedicated greatsword specialist. Compared to similarly armed barbarian, while raging, you'd be 3 behind for the extra str, so 4.5 back. That's compared to the 7 extra you average when making a single sneak attack. And, in proportion to the basic 14.5 you do two-handing the bastard sword in the first place, that's significant, but not overwhelming.
solbergb
04-07-05, 08:37 PM You're doing 14.5 a few times a round in the motion case, plus maybe tripping some folks. Call it 3-4 hits for 42-56 damage.

In the static case with flank you're doing 18.5x2+9x2 or 48 points roughly.

So it looks like in ideal circumstances you'll do about 45-50/round at level 10.

You're not optomized for single punching, so I'll compare you to a similar character (many attacks, needs a little setup)

Now with my monk, I find that if i don't have spikes on my nunchuck or I'm not enlarged, my damage at level 9 feels a little weak, but if I do have it my damage feels just fine.

My char does 3 attacks for d10+7 without enhancements, or 36.5 roughly.

With enlarge person, he does 2d8+8 3 times, which is 51 damage (and his trip/grapple stuff works better, as does his combat reflexes)

With "spikes he does 1d6+17 3 times, which is 60 damage roughly (and he gets an extra +2 to hit). Enlarging him only adds 3 points of damage, so I don't typically do both unless it is effortless to do so.

I'd say you are solidly in the middle of the road on damage with this character...not so high that people look at you with awe, not so low that stuff sticks around way too long even when you are firing on all cylinders.

Just as a comparison, a one-hit guy, say a L10 barbarian, raging, with shock-trooper so he lowers AC in stead of attack mod to power attack, with a +1 2 handed sword and say, 22 strength before rage does a bit over 40 points of damage on a charge. Which is one reason why doing closer to 50 points of damage seems like you're really contributing and doing under 40 seems to feel a little weak at APL10

One thing I do question..you're using unarmed strike for your offhand attack. You'd do better to save the feat and put armor spikes on your armor, and attack with those. They'll do more damage, can be special material and/or enchanted and all around give you many more options than just punching people. If you used the free feat, for, say, improved TWF or another combat reflexes thing like hold the line (either nets you more attacks) it could kick your average damage into the 50-60 range when you are in your element.

You also get a lot of attacks with that sword, you might consider investing some early cash into getting extra d6 damage on it. Merciful is kind of nice if you can get it, unlike flaming or whatever it is free to turn on/off, lets you take prisoners and doesn't catch the barn on fire if you get stunned and drop the weapon.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fokker07 04-07-05, 03:14 PM	im working on a rather complicated fighter6/rogue4 build, but i don't have a good feel for how much damage a 10th level melee character (fighter) should be doing. im basically trying to build a wily fighter rather than a strong rogue. he's also highly specialized in fighting bipeds his size. im building the character more for tricks, so my feats are eaten up by just about everything besides weapon finesse, weapon spec, and weapon focus. i just need to know if this build is competitive or weak. but mainly im trying to take advantage of attacks of opportunity and sneak attack. here are the feats and how his attacks will work. his feats and relevant abilities are (i have an extra feat from a flaw): combat reflexes expertise -improved trip dodge -mobility power attack -cleave improved unarmed combat two weapon fight sneak attack +2d6 evasion uncanny dodge AC23 (+3 elven chain) speed: 6 hit points: 78 flaw: shaky - 2 ranged attacks two handed attack weapon: bastard sword +2 to-hit: +16 damage: 1d10+9 20 strength (16 strength + belt of giant strength +4) +16 to hit (9 base attack, +2 bastard sword, +5 strength) two weapon attack for full attacks (sword and punch) weapon: bastard sword +2/punch/bastard sword +2 to-hit: +14/+12/+9 damage: 1d10+7/1d3+2/1d10+7 here is how he works in combat: on the move using elusive target, expertise, combat reflexes, mobility and improved trip, he tries to activate his attack of opportunities. he moves out of threatened squares with his expertise at full and mobility to give him a 32 AC with the intention of using the elusive target feat ability, cause overreach. when enemies make AoO's and miss, he may make his improved trip roll with a +9. if he trips them, he immediately gets his two handed bastard sword attack at 1d10+9. to top it off, after i pull off some successful trips as AoO's, i can choose to move back to the previous square (since im still in movement) and attempt more AoO's as they stand. when im really lucky, i will be able to use it 4 times due to combat reflexes, and possibly even get a cleave in there. btw, the advantage of cause overreach over normal tripping is you don't have a chance of getting countertripped if you fail a tripping attempt. flanking this character will always try to flank enemies with his dwarven fighter and human rogue/fighter companion so he can get his +2d6 sneak attack in. i have used two weapon fighting and improved unarmed combat to allow my character to use his sneak attack damage as much as possible without having to go through the trouble of drawing a weapon. i plan on getting more sneak attack damage as i level up, but i need this framework here first. while a punch on its own isnt much damage, it is a way to deliver more sneak attack dice. so, do you think my character will be competitive? and if i happened to get any feats/rules wrong, please let me know.
amoeba 04-07-05, 03:20 PM	I haven't played in a while and back when I played I mostly played casters but can you sneak attack with a 2 handed bastard sword?
Fokker07 04-07-05, 03:23 PM	i havent heard anything to the contrary.
Ibbins 04-07-05, 03:32 PM	concerning combat reflexes/aoo: since they nerfed AoO after 3.0(in which entering threatened area provoked an aoo), what are good ways to get in a lot of aoos, or to take advantage of combat reflexes? In 3.0 you could attack, run back 10 feet, and get an AoO when they followed(you get an advantage tho with mobility feat), but what can you do in 3.5? concerning sneak attack: there is no rule limiting it to 1hand weaps. for calculating average damage output, there's some program floating around on these boards that some guy made; it calcs average damage based on your stats and opponents AC...if I ever find it(search is still dead) i'll post it.
Tony Vargas 04-07-05, 04:55 PM	Looks like you should be doing fine for damage output. When you can sneak attack, you can double-up on the 2d6 from SA by TWF (and, you could use armor spikes or a spiked guantlet, y'know). When that's not an option, you can two-hand the bastard sword. Your 20 STR seems reasonable for the level. If you were a half-orc you might have a 22 by now. :shrug: When two-handing, you'd be 1.5 behind for bastard vs greatsword, and 2 more for weapon specialization - or 3.5 points behind a dedicated greatsword specialist. Compared to similarly armed barbarian, while raging, you'd be 3 behind for the extra str, so 4.5 back. That's compared to the 7 extra you average when making a single sneak attack. And, in proportion to the basic 14.5 you do two-handing the bastard sword in the first place, that's significant, but not overwhelming.
solbergb 04-07-05, 08:37 PM	You're doing 14.5 a few times a round in the motion case, plus maybe tripping some folks. Call it 3-4 hits for 42-56 damage. In the static case with flank you're doing 18.5x2+9x2 or 48 points roughly. So it looks like in ideal circumstances you'll do about 45-50/round at level 10. You're not optomized for single punching, so I'll compare you to a similar character (many attacks, needs a little setup) Now with my monk, I find that if i don't have spikes on my nunchuck or I'm not enlarged, my damage at level 9 feels a little weak, but if I do have it my damage feels just fine. My char does 3 attacks for d10+7 without enhancements, or 36.5 roughly. With enlarge person, he does 2d8+8 3 times, which is 51 damage (and his trip/grapple stuff works better, as does his combat reflexes) With "spikes he does 1d6+17 3 times, which is 60 damage roughly (and he gets an extra +2 to hit). Enlarging him only adds 3 points of damage, so I don't typically do both unless it is effortless to do so. I'd say you are solidly in the middle of the road on damage with this character...not so high that people look at you with awe, not so low that stuff sticks around way too long even when you are firing on all cylinders. Just as a comparison, a one-hit guy, say a L10 barbarian, raging, with shock-trooper so he lowers AC in stead of attack mod to power attack, with a +1 2 handed sword and say, 22 strength before rage does a bit over 40 points of damage on a charge. Which is one reason why doing closer to 50 points of damage seems like you're really contributing and doing under 40 seems to feel a little weak at APL10 One thing I do question..you're using unarmed strike for your offhand attack. You'd do better to save the feat and put armor spikes on your armor, and attack with those. They'll do more damage, can be special material and/or enchanted and all around give you many more options than just punching people. If you used the free feat, for, say, improved TWF or another combat reflexes thing like hold the line (either nets you more attacks) it could kick your average damage into the 50-60 range when you are in your element. You also get a lot of attacks with that sword, you might consider investing some early cash into getting extra d6 damage on it. Merciful is kind of nice if you can get it, unlike flaming or whatever it is free to turn on/off, lets you take prisoners and doesn't catch the barn on fire if you get stunned and drop the weapon.