Post/Author/DateTime	Post
krinkle22 01-14-05, 02:15 AM	So here's a weird question that came up with a character I was playing. A Multiclass lvl.2 Rouge, lvl.2 Fighter, & lvl.2 Barbarian. As I got to level 6, I noticed that I hadn't obtained even a +1 yet on my Will Save using the way I had been told to add them up, and that didn't seam right... The way I had been told to add up the BAB and Base Saving Throws was just to use the tables listed with the classes. So I did just that; for lvl.2 fighter the table says +0 will save, as do the two other classes also. So it would seam I get no will save until I go to level 3 with one of the classes... So, I read the book over again to see what I could make of it. I read the BAB and Base Save advancement sections on page 22, about how to use Table 3-1. And my interpretation was that a Ftr.lvl.2, Rog.lvl.2, Brb.lvl.2 would have a Will Save of +2. So correct me if I'm wrong... what is it, +2 or +0?? Same goes for the BAB for a multiclass character that has gone up lvl.1 in a few classes that have the "poor" BAB. like a lvl.1.wizard, lvl.1.rogue. Would he have a +1 or +0?....
WihHizwind 01-14-05, 02:22 AM	Your problem is that the tables you're using are pre-rounded. Poor BS = HD*.3333 Good BS = 2+(.5*HD) Your will save should be 6*.333 (2), plus your will modifier.
Crossover-Chronicler 01-14-05, 02:26 AM	Using the standard rules, that's the price you pay for multiclassing. That being said, you can always ask your DM to allow for some compromise or optional rule.
Vaelan 01-14-05, 02:53 AM	Fractional BAB/saves from Unearthed Arcana. Best rule in the entire book. Good BAB = 1 Average BAB = .75 Poor BAB = .5 Good Save = .5 Poor Save = .34 If you want to use fractional saves/BAB, you should probably be giving up the +2 given by your second class with high Fortitude saves.
krinkle22 01-14-05, 02:58 AM	Your problem is that the tables you're using are pre-rounded. Poor BS = HD*.3333 Good BS = 2+(.5*HD) Your will save should be 6*.333 (2), plus your will modifier. So using a similar formula for BAB, I would use: Good BAB = HD*1 Avg. BAB = 0.75*HD Poor BAB = 0.5*HD rounding the results down to the nearest whole number. where HD = the total number of Hit Die from all of your classes that use that same level of advancement (good, avg., or poor). In my char's case (lvl.2/2/2, ftr./rog./brb.) HD for Good BAB would = 4 and HD for Poor BAB would be 2. Sound Good? EDIT: Vaelan, you beat me to the post, sounds good. Thanks.
krinkle22 01-14-05, 03:06 AM	If you want to use fractional saves/BAB, you should probably be giving up the +2 given by your second class with high Fortitude saves. Right, I calculated my saves to be: (again lvl.2/2/2, ftr./rog./brb.) Fort. +4 Ref. +4 Will +2 Fort being a lot lower than it was using my previous method.. but makes more sense still...
WihHizwind 01-15-05, 12:40 AM	No, keep in the +2 for a good bas save. The downside to multiclassing is the EXP penalties, not losing out on saving throws.
Ualaa 01-15-05, 01:52 AM	Most of Unearthed Arcana is open game content, which is nice... Fractional BAB/Saves appear on page 73. Basically we divide the table into two sections. Base attack is much more straight forward then saving throws, so I'll start there. BAB: Nothing special at 1st level, just add each bonus as it is acquired. Full BAB classes add 1.0 BAB per level taken. Average (3/4) BAB classes add 0.75 BAB per level taken. Poor (1/2) BAB classes add 0.50 BAB per level taken. Everything rounds down (in 3.x, 9.999999 rounds down to 9, not up to 10). Your Fighter 2, Barbarian 2, Rogue 2 has +1 +1 (Fighter full BAB) +1 +1 (Barbarian full BAB) +0.75 +0.75 (Rogue avg BAB) for a total of 5.50 which rounds down to +5. You're close enough to 6.00 BAB, that even a level of Sorcerer with your next level increase will get you 6.00 BAB and your first iterative attack. Saves: Saves are slightly more complicated. At first level, we have an initial amount based on Good or Poor save progression. Thereafter, we add the modifier which is easier if we use the Greatest Common Fraction (GCF) of 1/12th. If a save is good at first level, give that save 2 and 6/12th. If a save is poor at first level, give that save 0 and 4/12th. After 1st level (2nd and later levels), we add 6/12th when a character gets a good save bonus or 4/12th when a character has a poor save. All the classes in the PHB or any supplement follow this pattern, based on good or poor save progressions. 1st level (Fighter) F: 2 - 6/12, R: 0 - 4/12, W: 0 - 4/12. 2nd level (Fighter) F: 3 - 0/12, R: 0 - 8/12, W: 0 - 8/12. 3rd level (Barbarian) F: 3 - 6/12, R: 1 - 0/12, W: 1 - 0/12. 4th level (Barbarian) F: 4 - 0/12, R: 1 - 4/12, W: 1 - 4/12. 5th level (Rogue) F: 4 - 4/12, R: 1 - 10/12, W: 1 - 8/12. 6th level (Rogue) F: 4 - 8/12, R: 2 - 4/12, W: 2 - 0/12. As long as the character started with either Ftr1 or Brb1 and not Rog1, the order of classes gained does not change the end saving throw results. F +4, R +2, W +2. The BAB of +5 (5.50) is the same no matter which class was gained when. Fractional saves are slightly in the players favor over rounding results and combining them, when using non-gestalt characters for which fractional saves/bab is designed for. The fractional rules are a little more math work, but more accurately reflect the characters true strength. When using Gestalt, fractional BAB/Saves are required otherwise characters are truely broken.
Vaelan 01-15-05, 03:49 AM	No, keep in the +2 for a good bas save. The downside to multiclassing is the EXP penalties, not losing out on saving throws. Saves without fractions: 6, 3, 0; total 9 Saves with fractions: 6.67, 4.34, 2.00; total 13 Saves with fractions*: 4.67, 4.34, 2.00; total 11 *Assuming you trade the second +2 to Fort for the priviledge of using fractional BAB/saves You aren't "losing out on saving throws" at all. Further, EXP penalties are nothing. They are too easily avoided with no real sacrifice. I think a DM is a bit more likely to accept the rule if it isn't just "Can I have +1 Reflex and +2 Will?". Fractional BAB/saves make each class's BAB/save progression build upon the others instead of just looking at the table and adding, and thus multiple +2s to the same stat is against the spirit of the houserule. You shouldn't be able to have it both ways.
Razoreface 01-15-05, 04:08 AM	No, keep in the +2 for a good bas save. The downside to multiclassing is the EXP penalties, not losing out on saving throws. The downside of multiclassing poorly is bad saving throws, and lower than normal BAB. Two levels in three classes is poorly. If he was Sorc 3/Bard 5 he'd be screwing himself on BAB. When you multiclass, you have to look at the numbers your adding, and not make decisions like that.
Gilean 01-15-05, 04:58 AM	For simpler system that fractional BAB and saves, add all class levels that have good save in specific category, check the number, do the same for low save, and add them up. For example: Brb 2 --> good BAB, good fortitutde Ftr 2 --> same Rog 2 --> medium BAB, good reflex BAB: 4 levels of good BAB and 2 levels of medium BAB, for total of 5 Fortitude: 4 levels of good fortitude (+4), 2 of bad (+0): +4 Reflex: 2 levels of good reflex (+3), 4 of poor (+1): +4 Will: 6 levels of poor will: +2 If next level is bard (to illustrate system), it would go like this BAB 4 good and 3 medium: +6 For: 4 good and 3 lousy: +5 Ref: 3 good and 4 lousy: +4 Will: 1 good and 6 lousy: +3 The results are bit lower than fractional ones, but the good save starting boost is only applied once per save. I developed this system before UA, mainly to round out multiclass characters.
stamhaven 01-15-05, 07:09 AM	If you don't go with actual fractions (truncate decimal), you can get the situation where adding a level of a poor bab class is better for your bab than adding a level of average bab. A Wizard 5 Rogue 4 is better off in your system adding a wizard level for bab than Rogue. Bottom line is by the book multiclassing front loads good saves too well (read monk/cleric/bard style prc's have much stronger saves than their pure class counterparts) while backloading bab unless the using only multiples of magic numbers for levels in average and poor bab classes (even for poor and multiples of 4 for average and 2 and 3's for saves). 5 level prc's with average bab are horrible for bab by the book (if you go in with anything but peftectly efficient bab on the way in you lag behind your straight class counterpart) a rogue 5 acrobat 5 streetfighter 5 gets 9 bab while a straight rogue gets 11.
gbnogkfs 01-16-05, 02:19 PM	the decimal BAB and Saves (with the +2 Saves only gained at 1st overall character level) it's my choice since long way before UA got out.