Balance & the Truenamer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Balance & the Truenamer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Yue Ryong
07-14-06, 09:41 PM Ok, I think we all agree, the Truenamer is far weaker than any of the other casting classes, something that no doubt causes a number of people to not play them in favour of more standard casters. However, it is also fairly widely accepted that the various melee classes are similarly weaker than any of the standard caster characters.
This eventually prompts the question of how well balanced melee characters are against the Truenamers, or vice versa. I actually hold to the opinion that a reasonably well built Truenamer is reasonably well balanced against the melee classes and against the skills based classes (once you factor in the fact that the skills based characters typically suffer a small reduction in power with the absence of standard casters and the many Reflex save orientated spells they're known to use (ah, freball, how we shall miss thee)). Who agree with me or disagree with me and why?
Novacat
07-14-06, 10:33 PM Low Levels:
Poorly Built Trunamer: Moderate to Sucky
Well-Built Truenamer: Decent to Good
Powerfully Built Trunamer: Good to Zomgawesome
Melee Types: Zomgawesome to Godly
Standard Casters: Sucky to Good

High Levels:
Poorly Built Trunamer: Glorified Commoner
Well-Built Truenamer: Poor to Sucky
Powerfully Built Trunamer: Zomgawesome to Godly
Melee Types: Decent to Sucky
Standard Casters: Decent to Zomgawesome
zae
07-15-06, 01:37 AM Wait, how does that scale work?
Is it (from worst to best) :
Glorified Commoner
Sucky
Poor
Moderate
Decent
Good
Zomgawesome
Godly

?

Because I believe "real" casters still utterly own Truenamers of any kind at high levels.
Novacat
07-15-06, 04:37 AM Wait, how does that scale work?
Is it (from worst to best) :
Glorified Commoner
Sucky
Poor
Moderate
Decent
Good
Zomgawesome
Godly

?

Because I believe "real" casters still utterly own Truenamers of any kind at high levels.
Yeah, that's pretty much the scale I had in mind, though I meant to be more descriptive than precise. The problem with normal casting is saving throws and SR, both of which are easily overcome by the Truenamer. This is especially true in the super-epic levels, but even at levels 17-25, most monsters should have practically "I win" saves, and SR such that no normal caster has a chance of overcoming it. Instead, casters have to settle for casting spells that no not allow these measures. The Truenamer, when faced with such enemies, can simply add 5 to the DC of the Utterance to ignore SR altogether, and MOST Utterances do not allow saves.

Now, as for my scale... using only "fairly standard" resources (ToM, Core, Complete, Race Of, etc), a Truenamer has almost no chance to affect a creature of appropriate CR at level 20. This precludes being effective, and thus the low rating. However, I've seen Truenamer builds with Truespeak bonuses in the hundreds, and these are the "Powerfully Built" Truenamers I speak of. They can freely add to the DC of their Utterances and speak against multiple targets all day long, practically. Certainly much longer than your average caster. Their effects are typically not long-lasting, true, however, they are potent and difficult to defend against.

My overall opinion on the Truenamer is that it looks like a very fun class to play. There is tons of flavor on it, and I've been iching to actually try one out. However, after crunching the numbers for some time, I realized that I would have to find just the right campaign and DM to use it in, or else it will be worthless:

1. Must be a heavy roleplaying group; My ideas for a Truenamer's character and background would be wasted on some of the people I play with, where the focus is almost entirely on combat.

2. DM must be willing to allow certain feats/items; The Amulet of the Silver Tongue, and its greater counterpart, are absolutely vital to the success of a Truenamer, and as important if not more so is Item Familiar. Without these, I would quickly become as impotent as Michael Moore when he runs out of burritos. Also, playing an Illumian is a big deal at early levels.

3. The campaign must be a long one; While it's impossible to tell just how long a campaign will last, I would want to be fairly certain that my Truenamer would last longer than the first 4 levels (assuming to unfortunate accidents).
Nausicaa
07-15-06, 04:53 AM The truenamer should definitely be based on a percentage system instead of a skill system..
Yue Ryong
07-15-06, 07:10 AM The truenamer should definitely be based on a percentage system instead of a skill system.. I'm curious about this. Magic has always been represented as a skill, so when it finally is treated as such in DnD, it needs to be changed? Why?
Nausicaa
07-15-06, 07:23 AM I'm curious about this. Magic has always been represented as a skill, so when it finally is treated as such in DnD, it needs to be changed? Why?

Because the variation is too elevated. This is a class that depends on a magical item to go on. Does it seem normal to you?

I created this variant that is based on a percentage:

The base chance to cast un utterance for the first time in the day is 75%
If your level is one or more levels higher than the target's CR you add 4% for each level
If your level is one or more levels lower than the target's CR you lose 4% for each level
For each utterance of that type succesfully cast during the day, your chance decrease by 6%
For each 5 degrees in the truespeak skill you have, you start with a 2% more chance
The metamagic effects lowers the chance of casting the utterance by 10% for extend, 25% for quicken and 17% for empower..

It's not (or not at all) level dependent and i'm trying to adjust this, but it is a good idea to eliminate the truespeak influency on this class.
Yue Ryong
07-15-06, 08:31 AM Well, I'm inclined to think that the amulet should be removed and either the Truenamer should get class-based bonuses on the skill or the DCs should be reduced.
Witch
07-15-06, 09:01 AM The amulet should not get removed, lest you wish to gimp every other class who uses truespeak.
Deper
07-15-06, 09:23 AM Dragon Issue #346 has a number of new feats called Denouncements. They make it worthwhile for a truenamer to actually learn a creature's personal truename, letting them do things like preventing them from attack or casting a spell on someone, reducing the target's spell resistance, energy resistance or damage reduction, or confuse them for a round with each use.

There are also feats that give spellcasters the bonuses that Truenamers get for uttering a truename, and a feat that allows you to spend xp to gain a bonus on saying a personal truenames.
wvmmafan
08-12-06, 10:36 AM truenamers can work, if you do them right
Asurya
08-14-06, 07:59 AM I created this variant that is based on a percentage
Nicely done actually.
I tried a fix myself (because i found the fluff "the universe take care of big CR-ed people" a bit dumb) and worked on a version more "what a harsh tongue!" (as it is said in the book: you can break your voice simply trying to speak true-language) which come to that:
-whenever the truenamer speaks an utterance, he makes a 'level-check', DC based on target's CR (flat not doubled) and the utterance level
-the main difference is that is no longer skill-dependant, but EVERY offensive utterance has a saving throw (there comes handy to know the Truename of the foe, which denies him his saving throw)
-to represent the physical strain, i chose to increase the DC of all subsequent utt. by one for each utt. successfully launched not just a limit on the same-utt repetition.
-the items like silver tongues are still useful as thez alow to deny the 5 (resp. 10) fisrt daily uses of utt when it comes to increase the DC (still fluff-OK as the silvertongue is created from glibness).

opinions?
babysamurai
08-14-06, 08:04 AM I'm curious about this. Magic has always been represented as a skill, so when it finally is treated as such in DnD, it needs to be changed? Why?

Really?

I always thought of magic as more of a talent.

It’s not like Perform or something.
Kaiberon
08-14-06, 11:30 PM it seems like this is the first class to take into account just how much is out there for your PC to capitalize on.

Personally I like it, without the listed item or "Item Familiar" feat from UA you can probably make the checks per utterance 2-3 times a day each witha roll of 10 to start. Not bad at all.

A lot of folks are also ignoring the above average skill points for a straight caster, the bigger hit die, and 3/4 base attack. The lack of saves and the option of bypassing SR entirely. It's a pretty good class.

And stop whining about the "required item". Find me a build that doesn't "require" some type of Item to maintain effectiveness by level 14 or so and I'll admit that outside the various Incarnum wielding classes such a thing exists.

I'm surprised more people aren't griping about such a cheap +10 to skill check item. Think of such a thing for tumble or disable device or diplomacy.
Asurya
08-16-06, 04:09 AM not sure of your Math... just pick a look at this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=607750) wher several of them have been made
moreover,
-better skill points than caster? 3 vs 2 is not a great deal i think (ok I know they have 4 but any truenamer worth their role must max their true speak ranks, so that's 3 SP/lvl left)
-you should took into consideration that nearly every truenamer will have to take the skill focus feat pretty early in their progression for no other purpose than being able to do their job, I mean that taking power attack for a fighting class is a good option but it's not required for them to continue to do what they are supoose to do (striking hard and often), as opposed to the required skill focus to continue to do what truenamers are supposed to do ('casting' with relevant efficiency)
-as for the 3/4 BAB, I don't really see the point, as -for me- the truenamers have a buffing role in a party (the truenamer in the game I DM tried only once to use his morgenstern, failed and nearly died from the riposte, he never tried again: bottom line not at all a fighting class)
if this (having a 1/2 BAB) is the price to pay to have a change in the 'casting'-mechanic, i think plenty of players would gladly pay it.

:bumping my own idea above: any opinions?
eggplantm
08-16-06, 08:20 AM it seems like this is the first class to take into account just how much is out there for your PC to capitalize on.

Personally I like it, without the listed item or "Item Familiar" feat from UA you can probably make the checks per utterance 2-3 times a day each witha roll of 10 to start. Not bad at all.

A lot of folks are also ignoring the above average skill points for a straight caster, the bigger hit die, and 3/4 base attack. The lack of saves and the option of bypassing SR entirely. It's a pretty good class.

And stop whining about the "required item". Find me a build that doesn't "require" some type of Item to maintain effectiveness by level 14 or so and I'll admit that outside the various Incarnum wielding classes such a thing exists.

I'm surprised more people aren't griping about such a cheap +10 to skill check item. Think of such a thing for tumble or disable device or diplomacy.

You make a lot of good points here. The average truename really almost has excess skill points because of his high intelligence score and he has use magic device which I always consider a big plus for any character class. Also, I use the rules to create a +15 or +20 amulet. They are Cheap!

What confuses me is that people love the warlock but don't seem to care for the truenamer when I consider them kind of similar. Weird.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yue Ryong 07-14-06, 09:41 PM	Ok, I think we all agree, the Truenamer is far weaker than any of the other casting classes, something that no doubt causes a number of people to not play them in favour of more standard casters. However, it is also fairly widely accepted that the various melee classes are similarly weaker than any of the standard caster characters. This eventually prompts the question of how well balanced melee characters are against the Truenamers, or vice versa. I actually hold to the opinion that a reasonably well built Truenamer is reasonably well balanced against the melee classes and against the skills based classes (once you factor in the fact that the skills based characters typically suffer a small reduction in power with the absence of standard casters and the many Reflex save orientated spells they're known to use (ah, freball, how we shall miss thee)). Who agree with me or disagree with me and why?
Novacat 07-14-06, 10:33 PM	Low Levels: Poorly Built Trunamer: Moderate to Sucky Well-Built Truenamer: Decent to Good Powerfully Built Trunamer: Good to Zomgawesome Melee Types: Zomgawesome to Godly Standard Casters: Sucky to Good High Levels: Poorly Built Trunamer: Glorified Commoner Well-Built Truenamer: Poor to Sucky Powerfully Built Trunamer: Zomgawesome to Godly Melee Types: Decent to Sucky Standard Casters: Decent to Zomgawesome
zae 07-15-06, 01:37 AM	Wait, how does that scale work? Is it (from worst to best) : Glorified Commoner Sucky Poor Moderate Decent Good Zomgawesome Godly ? Because I believe "real" casters still utterly own Truenamers of any kind at high levels.
Novacat 07-15-06, 04:37 AM	Wait, how does that scale work? Is it (from worst to best) : Glorified Commoner Sucky Poor Moderate Decent Good Zomgawesome Godly ? Because I believe "real" casters still utterly own Truenamers of any kind at high levels. Yeah, that's pretty much the scale I had in mind, though I meant to be more descriptive than precise. The problem with normal casting is saving throws and SR, both of which are easily overcome by the Truenamer. This is especially true in the super-epic levels, but even at levels 17-25, most monsters should have practically "I win" saves, and SR such that no normal caster has a chance of overcoming it. Instead, casters have to settle for casting spells that no not allow these measures. The Truenamer, when faced with such enemies, can simply add 5 to the DC of the Utterance to ignore SR altogether, and MOST Utterances do not allow saves. Now, as for my scale... using only "fairly standard" resources (ToM, Core, Complete, Race Of, etc), a Truenamer has almost no chance to affect a creature of appropriate CR at level 20. This precludes being effective, and thus the low rating. However, I've seen Truenamer builds with Truespeak bonuses in the hundreds, and these are the "Powerfully Built" Truenamers I speak of. They can freely add to the DC of their Utterances and speak against multiple targets all day long, practically. Certainly much longer than your average caster. Their effects are typically not long-lasting, true, however, they are potent and difficult to defend against. My overall opinion on the Truenamer is that it looks like a very fun class to play. There is tons of flavor on it, and I've been iching to actually try one out. However, after crunching the numbers for some time, I realized that I would have to find just the right campaign and DM to use it in, or else it will be worthless: 1. Must be a heavy roleplaying group; My ideas for a Truenamer's character and background would be wasted on some of the people I play with, where the focus is almost entirely on combat. 2. DM must be willing to allow certain feats/items; The Amulet of the Silver Tongue, and its greater counterpart, are absolutely vital to the success of a Truenamer, and as important if not more so is Item Familiar. Without these, I would quickly become as impotent as Michael Moore when he runs out of burritos. Also, playing an Illumian is a big deal at early levels. 3. The campaign must be a long one; While it's impossible to tell just how long a campaign will last, I would want to be fairly certain that my Truenamer would last longer than the first 4 levels (assuming to unfortunate accidents).
Nausicaa 07-15-06, 04:53 AM	The truenamer should definitely be based on a percentage system instead of a skill system..
Yue Ryong 07-15-06, 07:10 AM	The truenamer should definitely be based on a percentage system instead of a skill system.. I'm curious about this. Magic has always been represented as a skill, so when it finally is treated as such in DnD, it needs to be changed? Why?
Nausicaa 07-15-06, 07:23 AM	I'm curious about this. Magic has always been represented as a skill, so when it finally is treated as such in DnD, it needs to be changed? Why? Because the variation is too elevated. This is a class that depends on a magical item to go on. Does it seem normal to you? I created this variant that is based on a percentage: The base chance to cast un utterance for the first time in the day is 75% If your level is one or more levels higher than the target's CR you add 4% for each level If your level is one or more levels lower than the target's CR you lose 4% for each level For each utterance of that type succesfully cast during the day, your chance decrease by 6% For each 5 degrees in the truespeak skill you have, you start with a 2% more chance The metamagic effects lowers the chance of casting the utterance by 10% for extend, 25% for quicken and 17% for empower.. It's not (or not at all) level dependent and i'm trying to adjust this, but it is a good idea to eliminate the truespeak influency on this class.
Yue Ryong 07-15-06, 08:31 AM	Well, I'm inclined to think that the amulet should be removed and either the Truenamer should get class-based bonuses on the skill or the DCs should be reduced.
Witch 07-15-06, 09:01 AM	The amulet should not get removed, lest you wish to gimp every other class who uses truespeak.
Deper 07-15-06, 09:23 AM	Dragon Issue #346 has a number of new feats called Denouncements. They make it worthwhile for a truenamer to actually learn a creature's personal truename, letting them do things like preventing them from attack or casting a spell on someone, reducing the target's spell resistance, energy resistance or damage reduction, or confuse them for a round with each use. There are also feats that give spellcasters the bonuses that Truenamers get for uttering a truename, and a feat that allows you to spend xp to gain a bonus on saying a personal truenames.
wvmmafan 08-12-06, 10:36 AM	truenamers can work, if you do them right
Asurya 08-14-06, 07:59 AM	I created this variant that is based on a percentage Nicely done actually. I tried a fix myself (because i found the fluff "the universe take care of big CR-ed people" a bit dumb) and worked on a version more "what a harsh tongue!" (as it is said in the book: you can break your voice simply trying to speak true-language) which come to that: -whenever the truenamer speaks an utterance, he makes a 'level-check', DC based on target's CR (flat not doubled) and the utterance level -the main difference is that is no longer skill-dependant, but EVERY offensive utterance has a saving throw (there comes handy to know the Truename of the foe, which denies him his saving throw) -to represent the physical strain, i chose to increase the DC of all subsequent utt. by one for each utt. successfully launched not just a limit on the same-utt repetition. -the items like silver tongues are still useful as thez alow to deny the 5 (resp. 10) fisrt daily uses of utt when it comes to increase the DC (still fluff-OK as the silvertongue is created from glibness). opinions?
babysamurai 08-14-06, 08:04 AM	I'm curious about this. Magic has always been represented as a skill, so when it finally is treated as such in DnD, it needs to be changed? Why? Really? I always thought of magic as more of a talent. It’s not like Perform or something.
Kaiberon 08-14-06, 11:30 PM	it seems like this is the first class to take into account just how much is out there for your PC to capitalize on. Personally I like it, without the listed item or "Item Familiar" feat from UA you can probably make the checks per utterance 2-3 times a day each witha roll of 10 to start. Not bad at all. A lot of folks are also ignoring the above average skill points for a straight caster, the bigger hit die, and 3/4 base attack. The lack of saves and the option of bypassing SR entirely. It's a pretty good class. And stop whining about the "required item". Find me a build that doesn't "require" some type of Item to maintain effectiveness by level 14 or so and I'll admit that outside the various Incarnum wielding classes such a thing exists. I'm surprised more people aren't griping about such a cheap +10 to skill check item. Think of such a thing for tumble or disable device or diplomacy.
Asurya 08-16-06, 04:09 AM	not sure of your Math... just pick a look at this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=607750) wher several of them have been made moreover, -better skill points than caster? 3 vs 2 is not a great deal i think (ok I know they have 4 but any truenamer worth their role must max their true speak ranks, so that's 3 SP/lvl left) -you should took into consideration that nearly every truenamer will have to take the skill focus feat pretty early in their progression for no other purpose than being able to do their job, I mean that taking power attack for a fighting class is a good option but it's not required for them to continue to do what they are supoose to do (striking hard and often), as opposed to the required skill focus to continue to do what truenamers are supposed to do ('casting' with relevant efficiency) -as for the 3/4 BAB, I don't really see the point, as -for me- the truenamers have a buffing role in a party (the truenamer in the game I DM tried only once to use his morgenstern, failed and nearly died from the riposte, he never tried again: bottom line not at all a fighting class) if this (having a 1/2 BAB) is the price to pay to have a change in the 'casting'-mechanic, i think plenty of players would gladly pay it. :bumping my own idea above: any opinions?
eggplantm 08-16-06, 08:20 AM	it seems like this is the first class to take into account just how much is out there for your PC to capitalize on. Personally I like it, without the listed item or "Item Familiar" feat from UA you can probably make the checks per utterance 2-3 times a day each witha roll of 10 to start. Not bad at all. A lot of folks are also ignoring the above average skill points for a straight caster, the bigger hit die, and 3/4 base attack. The lack of saves and the option of bypassing SR entirely. It's a pretty good class. And stop whining about the "required item". Find me a build that doesn't "require" some type of Item to maintain effectiveness by level 14 or so and I'll admit that outside the various Incarnum wielding classes such a thing exists. I'm surprised more people aren't griping about such a cheap +10 to skill check item. Think of such a thing for tumble or disable device or diplomacy. You make a lot of good points here. The average truename really almost has excess skill points because of his high intelligence score and he has use magic device which I always consider a big plus for any character class. Also, I use the rules to create a +15 or +20 amulet. They are Cheap! What confuses me is that people love the warlock but don't seem to care for the truenamer when I consider them kind of similar. Weird.