Balance for the Marshal [Archive] - Wizards Community

Balance for the Marshal [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DustBunny
12-04-06, 12:21 AM Hey im looking at the Marshal from the mini-handbook, and it seems a little... lacking. As it stands it feels like a cross between a weak fighter and a weak bard. Does anyone have any good balancing house rules for it? One that i was thinking would be to give it full BAB, or let the Marshal use two minor auras at the same time... just not sure, any ideas?
OneWinged4ngel
12-04-06, 12:23 AM Hey im looking at the Marshal from the mini-handbook, and it seems a little... lacking.

That's pretty much because it is.

Because of that, I haven't really gotten acquainted with the class (as it hasn't been much interest to me), but if you want an example of a *good* support class, you could check out the Society Mind from Dreamscarred Press.
Lotus Crane
12-04-06, 12:28 AM One that i was thinking would be to give it full BAB, or let the Marshal use two minor auras at the same time...
Bingo. I think that among those of us who are prone to housefixes, either or both of those are the most common solutions we use.
DustBunny
12-04-06, 12:33 AM Hey thanks man, just wanted to make sure that i wasn't going overboard
Burpcycle
12-04-06, 12:33 AM The Marshal isn't a very good player class, but as an NPC class for military commanders it's amazing.
OneWinged4ngel
12-04-06, 12:39 AM The Marshal isn't a very good player class, but as an NPC class for military commanders it's amazing.

Yeah! Good for an NPC class! I mean, it's better than the Commoner, after all...
Templario
12-04-06, 06:05 AM You could give them Full BAB, more auras/day and learned, d10 HD, good Will save (forgive me if she already has) and 5 bonus feats. Helps a bit
dark_nony
12-04-06, 10:14 AM Maybe give him the lidership feat as a bonus feat at level 4.
I used him as a military commander for my DnD game and too i gave him full BAB, d10 and some feats (one was leadership).
belthazzar1113
12-08-06, 12:59 AM if you have the book of war with large combat rules marshals actually get alot better in real military situations. they get to add their class level to rank good times.

one thing they got in my game just from a campain world prospective was they are immune to negitive draconic auras (fear, fire, cold, ect) but it got me thinking on a tangent line about a nifty mechanic that i had wanted to put somewhere.... if you really think the marshal needs something i have a neat idea to try.

Unshakable Confidence of the Commander
Gained at level 4 at +1 strength, Bonus increase every 4 levels.
When a player is subject to a moral penelty, they may negate an aount of that penelty equal to their unshakeable confidence level.

then you add a major aura that allows them to project that ability out to all their troops to make berzerk commandos that will litteraly follow a general to hell and back :)

it was a neat mechanic that i couldn't figure out how to uise, but i thought the marshal would be a perfect fit. just an idea.
Tempest Stormwind
12-08-06, 01:29 AM That's pretty much because it is.

Because of that, I haven't really gotten acquainted with the class (as it hasn't been much interest to me), but if you want an example of a *good* support class, you could check out the Society Mind from Dreamscarred Press.

While I appreciate the plug (I'm one of the authors, the primary editor, and content manager for Dreamscarred Press, plus I wrote nearly half of the rules on the society mind when it appeared on these boards earlier), a society mind is fundamentally a caster-type, and people considering marshall typically don't want a caster.

(Mind, I've DMed for a gestalt Society Mind / Marshal, and it worked quite well... he was able to contribute actively even while concentrating on his powers...)

Still, this has inspired me to come up with a modification to the marshal that will bring it up to snuff (including in situations where he doesn't have his army in the fray with him, i.e. several typical adventuring party systems...) while keeping the feel of the class, and hopefully adding incentive for more than one level. I'll have it up shortly.
Mystyc
12-08-06, 01:32 AM For what it may be worth, I took this same train of thought a while back, and ended up retooling (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=459763) the class. It may be useful to you as a jumping-off point/brainstorm-fodder in your own modifications, or you are free to use it as it stands.

Oh, and Dragon Magic has "draconic auras," which marshals can learn as major auras, although they aren't very powerful. Still, they're available.
OneWinged4ngel
12-08-06, 03:20 AM While I appreciate the plug (I'm one of the authors, the primary editor, and content manager for Dreamscarred Press, plus I wrote nearly half of the rules on the society mind when it appeared on these boards earlier), a society mind is fundamentally a caster-type, and people considering marshall typically don't want a caster.

(Mind, I've DMed for a gestalt Society Mind / Marshal, and it worked quite well... he was able to contribute actively even while concentrating on his powers...)

Still, this has inspired me to come up with a modification to the marshal that will bring it up to snuff (including in situations where he doesn't have his army in the fray with him, i.e. several typical adventuring party systems...) while keeping the feel of the class, and hopefully adding incentive for more than one level. I'll have it up shortly.

I realize that many people may not want to play the a caster-sort, but I was simply commenting that the Marshal really isn't a very good class. Anyways, I'd love to see your take on it, Tempest. I look forward to seeing your ideas on the matter.
Sleepwalker13666
12-08-06, 04:28 AM The Marshal class really shines when you have a large party. If your fellow players have cohourts and you have at least 5 more characters than the Marshal itself it is a deadly class, in a smaller party such as 3-4 characters then yes it is hampered, the marshal was not meant to be small party class, and as one of the people before me stated, if you have Heroes of battle the Marshal becomes a lot more usefull. My main group consist of 8 people, 3 of which have cohorts average party level 9, if we had a Marshal instead of a bard on our team I think the Dm would be ripping his hair out.
Chimaera2000
12-08-06, 04:29 AM The marshal does need full Base Attack Bonus at the very least. In my game, I used a slightly re-tooled version of Lotus Crane's re-balanced marshal and it worked very well. A key fix that I added to it was that the bonus from your marshal auras could not exceed your class level. This prevents a player from simply level-dipping into marshal; they'll have to take several levels to see some greater benefits from that class.
Tempest Stormwind
12-08-06, 05:48 AM Okay, I've got it all together now (except for a capstone). It's practically big enough for its own thread, so I'm debating if I should post it here or in a new thread.

Either way, though, it's nearly 4 in the morning and I have stuff to do tomorr--er, today. I'll post it up after I get some sleep, either here or in a new thread (we'll see).

Chimaera, I left it with a medium attack bonus, but I think the modifications I've made will make it as popular, if not more. Dipping might still be a slight problem, but I pruned some of the abusive auras (Motivate Charisma, I'm looking at you) and cut a few other things to account for the shift. (I don't like limiting it by level; first-level marshals adding a mere +1 to a SMALL subset of rolls that require tactics to set up if you're using them offensively seems weak).
Oswald Krato
12-08-06, 12:17 PM Marshal is prime for a "dipping" charisma-based martial leadership class. Heroes of Battle has some other "leader" feats and classes...
Fighter dip/marshal dip/leader PrC

It can be powerful if you manipulate it.
dark_nony
12-08-06, 12:29 PM I run a military campain, the marshal is a good NPC as the commanders and SUCK as players.

But the game thet i am not runing, we are 8 peaple, me and another person have leadership feets. My cohord is a marshal, he SUCKS, but all of the grop loves him (But the DM). My point is, a marshal is only good at a big party or in a military campain, and a NPC a PC will never like to be a wick class that gets all the party buffs but stay wick himself.
Tempest Stormwind
12-08-06, 01:02 PM Okay, my modified Marshal is now up and ready. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=752414)

I KNOW I wasn't the only one thinking that when I read that book.

Marshal is prime for a "dipping" charisma-based martial leadership class. Heroes of Battle has some other "leader" feats and classes...
Fighter dip/marshal dip/leader PrC

It can be powerful if you manipulate it.

I run a military campain, the marshal is a good NPC as the commanders and SUCK as players.

But the game thet i am not runing, we are 8 peaple, me and another person have leadership feets. My cohord is a marshal, he SUCKS, but all of the grop loves him (But the DM). My point is, a marshal is only good at a big party or in a military campain, and a NPC a PC will never like to be a wick class that gets all the party buffs but stay wick himself.

Hopefully, I've fixed these problems.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DustBunny 12-04-06, 12:21 AM	Hey im looking at the Marshal from the mini-handbook, and it seems a little... lacking. As it stands it feels like a cross between a weak fighter and a weak bard. Does anyone have any good balancing house rules for it? One that i was thinking would be to give it full BAB, or let the Marshal use two minor auras at the same time... just not sure, any ideas?
OneWinged4ngel 12-04-06, 12:23 AM	Hey im looking at the Marshal from the mini-handbook, and it seems a little... lacking. That's pretty much because it is. Because of that, I haven't really gotten acquainted with the class (as it hasn't been much interest to me), but if you want an example of a good support class, you could check out the Society Mind from Dreamscarred Press.
Lotus Crane 12-04-06, 12:28 AM	One that i was thinking would be to give it full BAB, or let the Marshal use two minor auras at the same time... Bingo. I think that among those of us who are prone to housefixes, either or both of those are the most common solutions we use.
DustBunny 12-04-06, 12:33 AM	Hey thanks man, just wanted to make sure that i wasn't going overboard
Burpcycle 12-04-06, 12:33 AM	The Marshal isn't a very good player class, but as an NPC class for military commanders it's amazing.
OneWinged4ngel 12-04-06, 12:39 AM	The Marshal isn't a very good player class, but as an NPC class for military commanders it's amazing. Yeah! Good for an NPC class! I mean, it's better than the Commoner, after all...
Templario 12-04-06, 06:05 AM	You could give them Full BAB, more auras/day and learned, d10 HD, good Will save (forgive me if she already has) and 5 bonus feats. Helps a bit
dark_nony 12-04-06, 10:14 AM	Maybe give him the lidership feat as a bonus feat at level 4. I used him as a military commander for my DnD game and too i gave him full BAB, d10 and some feats (one was leadership).
belthazzar1113 12-08-06, 12:59 AM	if you have the book of war with large combat rules marshals actually get alot better in real military situations. they get to add their class level to rank good times. one thing they got in my game just from a campain world prospective was they are immune to negitive draconic auras (fear, fire, cold, ect) but it got me thinking on a tangent line about a nifty mechanic that i had wanted to put somewhere.... if you really think the marshal needs something i have a neat idea to try. Unshakable Confidence of the Commander Gained at level 4 at +1 strength, Bonus increase every 4 levels. When a player is subject to a moral penelty, they may negate an aount of that penelty equal to their unshakeable confidence level. then you add a major aura that allows them to project that ability out to all their troops to make berzerk commandos that will litteraly follow a general to hell and back :) it was a neat mechanic that i couldn't figure out how to uise, but i thought the marshal would be a perfect fit. just an idea.
Tempest Stormwind 12-08-06, 01:29 AM	That's pretty much because it is. Because of that, I haven't really gotten acquainted with the class (as it hasn't been much interest to me), but if you want an example of a good support class, you could check out the Society Mind from Dreamscarred Press. While I appreciate the plug (I'm one of the authors, the primary editor, and content manager for Dreamscarred Press, plus I wrote nearly half of the rules on the society mind when it appeared on these boards earlier), a society mind is fundamentally a caster-type, and people considering marshall typically don't want a caster. (Mind, I've DMed for a gestalt Society Mind / Marshal, and it worked quite well... he was able to contribute actively even while concentrating on his powers...) Still, this has inspired me to come up with a modification to the marshal that will bring it up to snuff (including in situations where he doesn't have his army in the fray with him, i.e. several typical adventuring party systems...) while keeping the feel of the class, and hopefully adding incentive for more than one level. I'll have it up shortly.
Mystyc 12-08-06, 01:32 AM	For what it may be worth, I took this same train of thought a while back, and ended up retooling (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=459763) the class. It may be useful to you as a jumping-off point/brainstorm-fodder in your own modifications, or you are free to use it as it stands. Oh, and Dragon Magic has "draconic auras," which marshals can learn as major auras, although they aren't very powerful. Still, they're available.
OneWinged4ngel 12-08-06, 03:20 AM	While I appreciate the plug (I'm one of the authors, the primary editor, and content manager for Dreamscarred Press, plus I wrote nearly half of the rules on the society mind when it appeared on these boards earlier), a society mind is fundamentally a caster-type, and people considering marshall typically don't want a caster. (Mind, I've DMed for a gestalt Society Mind / Marshal, and it worked quite well... he was able to contribute actively even while concentrating on his powers...) Still, this has inspired me to come up with a modification to the marshal that will bring it up to snuff (including in situations where he doesn't have his army in the fray with him, i.e. several typical adventuring party systems...) while keeping the feel of the class, and hopefully adding incentive for more than one level. I'll have it up shortly. I realize that many people may not want to play the a caster-sort, but I was simply commenting that the Marshal really isn't a very good class. Anyways, I'd love to see your take on it, Tempest. I look forward to seeing your ideas on the matter.
Sleepwalker13666 12-08-06, 04:28 AM	The Marshal class really shines when you have a large party. If your fellow players have cohourts and you have at least 5 more characters than the Marshal itself it is a deadly class, in a smaller party such as 3-4 characters then yes it is hampered, the marshal was not meant to be small party class, and as one of the people before me stated, if you have Heroes of battle the Marshal becomes a lot more usefull. My main group consist of 8 people, 3 of which have cohorts average party level 9, if we had a Marshal instead of a bard on our team I think the Dm would be ripping his hair out.
Chimaera2000 12-08-06, 04:29 AM	The marshal does need full Base Attack Bonus at the very least. In my game, I used a slightly re-tooled version of Lotus Crane's re-balanced marshal and it worked very well. A key fix that I added to it was that the bonus from your marshal auras could not exceed your class level. This prevents a player from simply level-dipping into marshal; they'll have to take several levels to see some greater benefits from that class.
Tempest Stormwind 12-08-06, 05:48 AM	Okay, I've got it all together now (except for a capstone). It's practically big enough for its own thread, so I'm debating if I should post it here or in a new thread. Either way, though, it's nearly 4 in the morning and I have stuff to do tomorr--er, today. I'll post it up after I get some sleep, either here or in a new thread (we'll see). Chimaera, I left it with a medium attack bonus, but I think the modifications I've made will make it as popular, if not more. Dipping might still be a slight problem, but I pruned some of the abusive auras (Motivate Charisma, I'm looking at you) and cut a few other things to account for the shift. (I don't like limiting it by level; first-level marshals adding a mere +1 to a SMALL subset of rolls that require tactics to set up if you're using them offensively seems weak).
Oswald Krato 12-08-06, 12:17 PM	Marshal is prime for a "dipping" charisma-based martial leadership class. Heroes of Battle has some other "leader" feats and classes... Fighter dip/marshal dip/leader PrC It can be powerful if you manipulate it.
dark_nony 12-08-06, 12:29 PM	I run a military campain, the marshal is a good NPC as the commanders and SUCK as players. But the game thet i am not runing, we are 8 peaple, me and another person have leadership feets. My cohord is a marshal, he SUCKS, but all of the grop loves him (But the DM). My point is, a marshal is only good at a big party or in a military campain, and a NPC a PC will never like to be a wick class that gets all the party buffs but stay wick himself.
Tempest Stormwind 12-08-06, 01:02 PM	Okay, my modified Marshal is now up and ready. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=752414) I KNOW I wasn't the only one thinking that when I read that book. Marshal is prime for a "dipping" charisma-based martial leadership class. Heroes of Battle has some other "leader" feats and classes... Fighter dip/marshal dip/leader PrC It can be powerful if you manipulate it. I run a military campain, the marshal is a good NPC as the commanders and SUCK as players. But the game thet i am not runing, we are 8 peaple, me and another person have leadership feets. My cohord is a marshal, he SUCKS, but all of the grop loves him (But the DM). My point is, a marshal is only good at a big party or in a military campain, and a NPC a PC will never like to be a wick class that gets all the party buffs but stay wick himself. Hopefully, I've fixed these problems.