Balance Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Balance Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Aage
06-14-07, 06:33 PM Warlock, Totemist, Incarnate, Binder, Ardent, Psion, Wilder

If using these classes together in a campaign, would any of them stand out as overpowered/underpowered, or would they be about equal in power?
Sleepwalker13666
06-14-07, 06:38 PM Warlock, Totemist, Incarnate, Binder, Ardent, Psion, Wilder

If using these classes together in a campaign, would any of them stand out as overpowered/underpowered, or would they be about equal in power?

Totemist in my game have seemed to get the low end of the stick, never seen an ardent or incarnate in action so I can't comment on those, I think the psion and wilder can outshine the warlock and binder initially, but they have a power point limit where the warlock and binder do not.
Tempest Stormwind
06-14-07, 07:41 PM Warlock, Totemist, Incarnate, Binder, Ardent, Psion, Wilder

If using these classes together in a campaign, would any of them stand out as overpowered/underpowered, or would they be about equal in power?

Warlock will peak around level 5, and be passable after that.

Totemist is incredible from levels 2-5, passable after that unless you know what you're doing.

Incarnate, less so -- depends entirely what you're trying to do with it. It can be fine, it can be pitiful.

Binder is like an incarnate, but better in most ways -- not necessarily *stronger*, but more mechanically sound and diverse.

The psion and wilder are full-casters and will start out weak but ultimately be the strongest. However, the amount they're ahead of the others is far, far less than the amount the wizard or cleric would be ahead of them. Interestingly, unlike the others, these two have daily resources -- having more than 4 encounters of equal CR per day will force these characters to spend their resources more frugally and end up in the same power bracket of the game as the others.

If you add in the Tome of Battle classes and the rogue, you'd probably have a fairly well-balanced subset of D&D for every role. At some levels some classes will seem stronger than others, at others the others will. It would work out best with lots of encounters per day, though (strictly due to the psionic classes; if you remove those there are no daily limits present in any of the classes at all, which makes your job as DM far, far easier).
Flamewarrior
06-15-07, 01:18 PM Aage: the sole comment I have to add is that, warlock excepted, and especially if you add rogue and blade magic, all listed classes multiclass remarkably well too. So, maybe it'd be good to think about a warlock multiclass aid - what about the ToB "class level + levels in other classes = initiator level" rule, applied to caster level?

Tempest: while the "more diverse" is easy to figure, could you explain the "more mechanically sound" between incarnate and binder?
Aage
06-15-07, 01:22 PM Good thinking... would that affect the caster level of invocations, and the damage of eldritch blast then? :D Sound good?'

I was gonna mix in ToB, rogue, barbarian and seerow's fighter.... seerow's might not multiclass that well though, if I recall correctly...
Flamewarrior
06-15-07, 01:42 PM That warlock idea is from a thread talking about doing this even for spellcasters, which I find excessive (since it would likely lead to no people with noncaster levels), but even fot the warlock, which seems OK, I know of no playtest report - just saying. The masterwork fighter, on the other hand, is a little less multiclass-friendly than the average of those classes, but it holds up fine, and a dedicated martial adept could have interest in obtaining two combat styles; I don't think it needs any special care with regards to multiclassing. And, to remind yourself (and possibly disprove me), take a look (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=728493). Finally, if you already accepted something from the boards, I suggest you to go crazy and look here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=866512) for suggestions on a similar plan. But, why no psychic warrior?
Tempest Stormwind
06-15-07, 02:00 PM Aage: the sole comment I have to add is that, warlock excepted, and especially if you add rogue and blade magic, all listed classes multiclass remarkably well too. So, maybe it'd be good to think about a warlock multiclass aid - what about the ToB "class level + levels in other classes = initiator level" rule, applied to caster level?I've actually considered getting effective binder level scaling that way, setting EBL to your levels in Soul Binding classes (binder + PrCs) + half your other levels -- not necessarily for what level vestige you can bind, but for their effects keyed to EBL (essentially, while you could only bind 1st level vestiges as a SOMETHING 10/Binder 1, you'd have an EBL of 6 for those vestiges' effects). We may be experimenting with this in one of our games in a few levels.Tempest: while the "more diverse" is easy to figure, could you explain the "more mechanically sound" between incarnate and binder?An incarnate can produce one effect at level 1, being based on whatever meld they chose to shape. The number of melds they have is based on Constitution, but is also hard-limited by your item slots (max 9, I believe, barring special feats). Making use of your better class features -- the chakra binds -- requires you to give up magic items. The class uses Constitution to determine everything about their melds, EXCEPT save DC, which is Wisdom (introducing unnecessary MAD on top of the incarnate needing whatever else you want for your character, such as Strength for a melee incarnate). There's also a heavy alignment focus that isn't really suited for the rest of the classes (warlock excepted, but even that's controversial).

A binder can produce multiple effects at level 1 (between three and five, depending on the vestige), and can produce more and more diverse ones despite only being able to bind 4 vestiges by level 20 (assuming you don't count essentia distributions, there are more possible combinations in pact magic than there are in the incarnate). Binding is based exclusively on Charisma, although the class itself asks for other abilities (mostly Intelligence) through RP or whatever role you want to fill. You don't need to give up anything to use your abilities -- although some feats and abilities give you the ability to sacrifice some of your pact abilities (for instance, Expel Vestige lets you change your vestiges between encounters at a penalty to the binding check (which really only matters to RP in most cases), the Anima Mage burns vestige abilities for magic, and so on). Suppress Sign lets you actually hide your more obvious vestigal transformations, while the incarnate needs to walk around looking like this (http://wizards.com/dnd/images/moi_gallery/91053.jpg).

Basically, the binder feels better-done to my mechanical senses than the incarnate. (Most of my complaints of the incarnate disappear on the totemist, for instance, so it isn't exclusive to incarnum.)
Cyrocloud
06-15-07, 02:23 PM if you know how to play a totemist well they will make nearly unstoppable meleers but the psion will be most likely the strongest there is.
Flamewarrior
06-15-07, 02:40 PM I've actually considered getting effective binder level scaling that way, setting EBL to your levels in Soul Binding classes (binder + PrCs) + half your other levels -- not necessarily for what level vestige you can bind, but for their effects keyed to EBL (essentially, while you could only bind 1st level vestiges as a SOMETHING 10/Binder 1, you'd have an EBL of 6 for those vestiges' effects). We may be experimenting with this in one of our games in a few levels.Seems to work too; I just consider it less needed than for the warlock because most vestiges already offer benefits attrctive for other classes, while warlock effects tend to be stand-alone, especially EB, which is currently worthless for a multiclass warlock; but yeah, a good thing to try.

Incarnate/binder comparison: while I wouldn't call alignment and appearance much on the "mechanical" side (I don't touch the standard incarnate flavor), the remaining items (of which I already considered, and hated, the dispute with magic items) are enough for your point to be valid - thanks; must only say that essentia distribution was a great idea amid other shortcomings, and the binder could have been even more flavorful with something similar.

if you know how to play a totemist well they will make nearly unstoppable meleers but the psion will be most likely the strongest there is.The psion is kept in check by 4 or more equal-CR encounters per day (since it'll have problems in the "more" days), and the totemist is, of the initial listing, the only one built for dedicated melee, so it should be best; you'd have an even melee match with ToB, as already suggested.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aage 06-14-07, 06:33 PM	Warlock, Totemist, Incarnate, Binder, Ardent, Psion, Wilder If using these classes together in a campaign, would any of them stand out as overpowered/underpowered, or would they be about equal in power?
Sleepwalker13666 06-14-07, 06:38 PM	Warlock, Totemist, Incarnate, Binder, Ardent, Psion, Wilder If using these classes together in a campaign, would any of them stand out as overpowered/underpowered, or would they be about equal in power? Totemist in my game have seemed to get the low end of the stick, never seen an ardent or incarnate in action so I can't comment on those, I think the psion and wilder can outshine the warlock and binder initially, but they have a power point limit where the warlock and binder do not.
Tempest Stormwind 06-14-07, 07:41 PM	Warlock, Totemist, Incarnate, Binder, Ardent, Psion, Wilder If using these classes together in a campaign, would any of them stand out as overpowered/underpowered, or would they be about equal in power? Warlock will peak around level 5, and be passable after that. Totemist is incredible from levels 2-5, passable after that unless you know what you're doing. Incarnate, less so -- depends entirely what you're trying to do with it. It can be fine, it can be pitiful. Binder is like an incarnate, but better in most ways -- not necessarily stronger, but more mechanically sound and diverse. The psion and wilder are full-casters and will start out weak but ultimately be the strongest. However, the amount they're ahead of the others is far, far less than the amount the wizard or cleric would be ahead of them. Interestingly, unlike the others, these two have daily resources -- having more than 4 encounters of equal CR per day will force these characters to spend their resources more frugally and end up in the same power bracket of the game as the others. If you add in the Tome of Battle classes and the rogue, you'd probably have a fairly well-balanced subset of D&D for every role. At some levels some classes will seem stronger than others, at others the others will. It would work out best with lots of encounters per day, though (strictly due to the psionic classes; if you remove those there are no daily limits present in any of the classes at all, which makes your job as DM far, far easier).
Flamewarrior 06-15-07, 01:18 PM	Aage: the sole comment I have to add is that, warlock excepted, and especially if you add rogue and blade magic, all listed classes multiclass remarkably well too. So, maybe it'd be good to think about a warlock multiclass aid - what about the ToB "class level + levels in other classes = initiator level" rule, applied to caster level? Tempest: while the "more diverse" is easy to figure, could you explain the "more mechanically sound" between incarnate and binder?
Aage 06-15-07, 01:22 PM	Good thinking... would that affect the caster level of invocations, and the damage of eldritch blast then? :D Sound good?' I was gonna mix in ToB, rogue, barbarian and seerow's fighter.... seerow's might not multiclass that well though, if I recall correctly...
Flamewarrior 06-15-07, 01:42 PM	That warlock idea is from a thread talking about doing this even for spellcasters, which I find excessive (since it would likely lead to no people with noncaster levels), but even fot the warlock, which seems OK, I know of no playtest report - just saying. The masterwork fighter, on the other hand, is a little less multiclass-friendly than the average of those classes, but it holds up fine, and a dedicated martial adept could have interest in obtaining two combat styles; I don't think it needs any special care with regards to multiclassing. And, to remind yourself (and possibly disprove me), take a look (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=728493). Finally, if you already accepted something from the boards, I suggest you to go crazy and look here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=866512) for suggestions on a similar plan. But, why no psychic warrior?
Tempest Stormwind 06-15-07, 02:00 PM	Aage: the sole comment I have to add is that, warlock excepted, and especially if you add rogue and blade magic, all listed classes multiclass remarkably well too. So, maybe it'd be good to think about a warlock multiclass aid - what about the ToB "class level + levels in other classes = initiator level" rule, applied to caster level?I've actually considered getting effective binder level scaling that way, setting EBL to your levels in Soul Binding classes (binder + PrCs) + half your other levels -- not necessarily for what level vestige you can bind, but for their effects keyed to EBL (essentially, while you could only bind 1st level vestiges as a SOMETHING 10/Binder 1, you'd have an EBL of 6 for those vestiges' effects). We may be experimenting with this in one of our games in a few levels.Tempest: while the "more diverse" is easy to figure, could you explain the "more mechanically sound" between incarnate and binder?An incarnate can produce one effect at level 1, being based on whatever meld they chose to shape. The number of melds they have is based on Constitution, but is also hard-limited by your item slots (max 9, I believe, barring special feats). Making use of your better class features -- the chakra binds -- requires you to give up magic items. The class uses Constitution to determine everything about their melds, EXCEPT save DC, which is Wisdom (introducing unnecessary MAD on top of the incarnate needing whatever else you want for your character, such as Strength for a melee incarnate). There's also a heavy alignment focus that isn't really suited for the rest of the classes (warlock excepted, but even that's controversial). A binder can produce multiple effects at level 1 (between three and five, depending on the vestige), and can produce more and more diverse ones despite only being able to bind 4 vestiges by level 20 (assuming you don't count essentia distributions, there are more possible combinations in pact magic than there are in the incarnate). Binding is based exclusively on Charisma, although the class itself asks for other abilities (mostly Intelligence) through RP or whatever role you want to fill. You don't need to give up anything to use your abilities -- although some feats and abilities give you the ability to sacrifice some of your pact abilities (for instance, Expel Vestige lets you change your vestiges between encounters at a penalty to the binding check (which really only matters to RP in most cases), the Anima Mage burns vestige abilities for magic, and so on). Suppress Sign lets you actually hide your more obvious vestigal transformations, while the incarnate needs to walk around looking like this (http://wizards.com/dnd/images/moi_gallery/91053.jpg). Basically, the binder feels better-done to my mechanical senses than the incarnate. (Most of my complaints of the incarnate disappear on the totemist, for instance, so it isn't exclusive to incarnum.)
Cyrocloud 06-15-07, 02:23 PM	if you know how to play a totemist well they will make nearly unstoppable meleers but the psion will be most likely the strongest there is.
Flamewarrior 06-15-07, 02:40 PM	I've actually considered getting effective binder level scaling that way, setting EBL to your levels in Soul Binding classes (binder + PrCs) + half your other levels -- not necessarily for what level vestige you can bind, but for their effects keyed to EBL (essentially, while you could only bind 1st level vestiges as a SOMETHING 10/Binder 1, you'd have an EBL of 6 for those vestiges' effects). We may be experimenting with this in one of our games in a few levels.Seems to work too; I just consider it less needed than for the warlock because most vestiges already offer benefits attrctive for other classes, while warlock effects tend to be stand-alone, especially EB, which is currently worthless for a multiclass warlock; but yeah, a good thing to try. Incarnate/binder comparison: while I wouldn't call alignment and appearance much on the "mechanical" side (I don't touch the standard incarnate flavor), the remaining items (of which I already considered, and hated, the dispute with magic items) are enough for your point to be valid - thanks; must only say that essentia distribution was a great idea amid other shortcomings, and the binder could have been even more flavorful with something similar. if you know how to play a totemist well they will make nearly unstoppable meleers but the psion will be most likely the strongest there is.The psion is kept in check by 4 or more equal-CR encounters per day (since it'll have problems in the "more" days), and the totemist is, of the initial listing, the only one built for dedicated melee, so it should be best; you'd have an even melee match with ToB, as already suggested.