Balanced divine casters (Cleric & Druid) – a bit of a revolutionary concept [Archive] - Wizards Community

Balanced divine casters (Cleric & Druid) – a bit of a revolutionary concept [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
nonsi
08-03-07, 08:46 PM Three notes regarding the Cleric:
1. The class is overpowered. Only a handful few would argue differently.
2. Spell preparation is a bummer and makes no sense.
3. The class is a one-man-arsenal-storage, but doesn't really manage to relay the "divine" feel.

Here's an attempt to correct the above.

BAB: poor
Skills: Clerics have [4 + INT-mod] SkPts/level and also have Decipher Script and Sense Motive as class skill.
Weapons and Armor: All Clerics start proficient with their deity's chosen weapon and with medium armor and shield.
Spellcasting: Clerics are spontaneous casters – domain spells are also chosen spontaneously (but still 1 / day / level).

Level Special
=====================
1st Turn / Rebuke Undead
2nd
3rd Divine Health
4th Bonus Feat
5th Divine Blessing
6th
7th Bonus Domain
8th Bonus Feat
9th
10th Second Sight
11th
12th Bonus Feat
13th
14th Bonus Domain
15th
16th Bonus Feat
17th
18th
19th
20th Bonus Feat

Divine Health:
The Cleric gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.

Bonus Feat:
The cleric gains a bonus feat to be selected from: all divine / item-creation feats, Extra Turning and Iron Will.

Divine Blessing:
CHA-mod is applied to all saves.

Bonus Domain:
The Cleric gains access to another domain and may choose any domain that doesn't conflict with his ethos.

Second Sight: A Cleric with this ability can see ethereal creatures, such as ghosts, as easily as she sees material creatures and objects. The Cleric can easily distinguish between ethereal creatures and material ones, because ethereal creatures appear translucent and indistinct.

Revised Spells (from PHBI only – just too get the concept):
- Harm/Heal: 5HP / level, up to 100.
- Destruction: Modified to a 9th level
- Gate: "Calling Creatures" option is canceled !!!

Spells removed from the Cleric's standard list:
- Righteous Might
- Mass Harm/Heal
- Implosion

Cleric variants:

Guild Cleric(must take Trickery and Luck):
Loses:
- Turn/Rebuke Undead
- Second Sight
- medium armor
Gains:
- Extra 2 kill points per level + Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently & Tumble as class skills.
- Evasion, Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge at levels 2, 4 and 8 respectively.

War Cleric(Must take Strength and War domains):
Loses:
- Turn/Rebuke Undead
- Second Sight
Gains:
- Average BAB.
- Uses d10 for HP calculations.
- The bonus feats are assigned to combat instead of divine / item-creation feats, Extra Turning and Iron Will.
- Only a War Cleric has access to the following spells: Divine Favor and Divine Power.

From the few fantasy books I've read in my life and several scenes I've seen, I never saw the Druid archetype as someone built to dominate combat or hold a dinosaur on a leash.
I picture the Druid as someone who starts as caretaker for the woods, evolves into a nature-bonded sage and eventually becomes a living conscious part of the land. Unlike all other classes, the Druid actually transforms physically as he grows in power.

So here it is my take on the DRUID

BAB: poor
Skills & Skill points: Druids gain [6 + INT-mod] skill-points / level and also have Climb, Hide, Move Silently and Sense Motive as class skills.
Weapons and Armor: The Scimitar is removed from the core weapons list. Druids start proficient only with light armor and with shield (which is neglected later on – see below).
Spellcasting: Druids are spontaneous casters.

Level | Strength of the Land | Special
======================================== ======================================
1 | | Wild Empathy, Nature Sense
2 | | Druid Fire, Essence of Fey
3 | Elemental Resistance 5 | Woodland Stride, Trackless Step
4 | +1 AC; DR 1 / Metal | Resist Nature's Lure, Perfect Health
5 | | Wild Shape (medium, mammal)
6 | Fast healing 1 | Wild Shape (medium/small, mammal/reptile)
7 | | Wild Shape (medium/small, mammal/reptile/fish)
8 | +2 AC; DR 2 / Metal | Wild Shape (medium/small, mammal/reptile/fish/bird)
9 | | Poison Immunity, Staff of the Druid
10 | Elemental Resistance 10 | Wild Shape (medium/small/large, alternate form)
11 | | Wild Shape (medium/small/large/tiny, alternate form)
12 | +3 AC; DR 3 / Metal | Wild Shape (medium/small/large/tiny, alternate form/plant)
13 | | A Thousand Faces , Tongue of the Sun and the Moon
14 | Fast healing 2 | Timeless Body, Essence of Vitality
15 | | Wild Shape (elemental - 1 type / day), Immunity to unwanted polymorph
16 | +4 AC; DR 4 / Metal | Grand Staff of the Druid
17 | Elemental Resistance 15 | Wild Shape (elemental - 2 types / day)
18 | | Commune with Nature
19 | | Wild Shape (elemental – any type whenever desired)
20 | +5 AC; DR 5 / Metal | Essence of Life

Strength of the Land: As the druid gains levels, his ties to the earth strengthen his essence. At lower levels, his skin becomes wood-like and at higher levels his skin becomes stone-like with "woody" patterns. This gives away the druid's nature. This bonus is lost in wild shape.

Elemental Resistance: The Druid gains the indicated resistance against acid, cold, electricity, fire and force effects.

Druid Fire: This ability is available 3 times a day and has 2 different applications:
1. Produce Flame effect with a twist. The druid may decide to produce a white flame that deals cold damage instead of heat, a black flame that quenches fire, or a green flame that deals double damage to undead only.
2. Faerie Fire: see the spell's description.

Essence of Fey: The Druid gains Darkvision 60' (or 60' boost), Low Light Vision and immunity to sleep magic. These changes apply at all times and in all forms.

Perfect Health: the druid is immune to disease – magical as well as mundane.

Wild Shape – the ability is limitless and may be performed as a swift action.

Staff of the Druid: The Druid never has to carry weapons. The Druid may manifest a "shillelagh"-ed quarterstaff at will. The druid may also apply Druid Fire with his quarterstaff. If the quarterstaff is disarmed or sundered, it disappears, only to reappear in the Druid's hands when his turn comes. The Druid has TWF and Weapon Focus: Quarterstaff.

A Thousand Faces: This ability can also mask the Druid's unique skin patterns, but at a price of suppressing all benefits of "Strength of the Land".

Essence of Vitality: The Druid receives the plant subtype and also becomes immune to all ability and level drain effects.

Grand Staff of the Druid: The Druid's staff is considered to have had Ironwood applied to it, except its weight does not increase. It can bypass hardness as if made of adamantine. If the staff is disarmed or sundered, it reappears in the Druid's hands as an immediate action. The Druid now has Greater Weapon Focus and Quickstaff with his quarterstaff.

Commune with Nature: The druid may cast Commune with Nature 3 times a day as a spell-like ability, with the casting time halved.

Essence of Life: The druid is forever treated as affected by Death Ward. Moreover, his physical age returns to Adult (eliminating any age penalties) and he never dies of old age.

There was a well aimed thematic motivation behind each added or modified class features:

- Strength of the Land – Becoming a part of the land, the Druid slowly drifts – a little bit toward stone and a little bit toward plant
- Druid Fire – As caretaker of the woods, the Druid sometimes needs to use fire for various applications. Some of the times he has to extinguish it and sometimes he has to fend against the very opposite of life - undeath.
- Essence of Fey – Just like Fey, the Druid is a part of nature and yet magical. This class feature assists the Druid to roam his surroundings at night and keep a watchful eye against invaders, and gives him the advantage.
- Perfect Health – In real life nearly all diseases and all cures come from nature. The Druid's ties to the magical nature provide protection against all diseases.
- Staff of the Druid – The Druid is not just a forest protector and a part of nature, but also an emissary of nature. It is not very fitting for an emissary to carry arms all the time. This also serves to enhance the archetype (There's nothing that feels more correct than Druid + Staff) and somewhat compensates the dramatic depowering.
- Essence of Vitality – This is one of the Druid's most significant transformation stages. He gains the "plant" subtype and his life essence gains an unnatural strength.
- Tongue of the Sun and the Moon – Combat is but one method of dealing with intruders. Diplomacy is the preferred alternative. The Druid is initially hospitable to all visitors before categorizing them as invaders. In order to be diplomatic to everyone, you have to be able to talk to everyone.
- Grand Staff of the Druid – The Druid has but one tool to use in combat. This tool is a part of him and evolves with him.
- Commune with Nature – I believe no explanation is necessary.
- Essence of Life – The Druid's transformation is complete. He's now become a part of the land. The land never fades away, so neither does the Druid.

Spell list modifications

Spells removed from the Druid's list:
- Guidance (0) – Druids cannot turn to mystical insights
- Virtue (0) – Utterly useless and thematically meaningless
- Foresight (9) – Druids cannot turn to mystical insights.

Spells added to the Druid's list:
- Polymorph (4)
- Break Enchantment (5)

Natural Spell feat is canceled, but the ability is not entirely ommited:
In Wild Shape the Druid's magical access is far more limited. Starting at 6th level, the Druid has access to 1st level spells only. With each additional 3 levels (9, 12, 15 and 18) the next spell level may be accessed in Wild Shape (max 5th at level 18).
ToastedAmphibian
08-03-07, 09:08 PM I cant speak as to the balance of these classes or to that of the originals, so i wont try.

However, your druid sounds kina like a monk... What with teh armor increases and teh always armed thing.. disease imunity and no ageing penalty. With spellcasting added on and deathwatch, at the penalty of lower BAB

Also, why force effects? I fail to see how that falls inline with the nature thing. Its prettymuch only a magic induced thing... no natural walls of force and such.

Might be interesting to ditch the essence of life ability. You coulde replace it with a kind of reincarnation effeft. Mabey take a page from the vampire skill book. When a druid dies, it turns to vapor and flys away to a secluded wilderness area (A cave, deep forest grove with cairn stones, wolf den, you know something suitibally druid like) and regnerates. Part of the land cant really truly be destroyed easily. If you really wanted to have some fun, use the rules for the "Reincarnation" spell and make them roll to see what they are reincarnated as. (Or just let them come back as a young adult version of themselves)
Gnaeus
08-03-07, 09:09 PM So, the cleric is overpowered, but this is improved by replacing him with a variant of the Favored soul with Turning and Domains and extra skill points? Sign my powergaming self up.

The druid variant MIGHT be a nerf. MAYBE. It is like the shapeshifting variant, but with more variety, and a ton of special abilities, and the ability to continue to cast, although limited, in wildshape, without even spending a feat. I'm not sure most druid players will approve or not, but it isn't in any danger of being overtaken by any core class not a full caster, and I think it might come out ahead.
nonsi
08-04-07, 07:24 AM However, your druid sounds kina like a monk... What with teh armor increases and teh always armed thing.. disease imunity and no ageing penalty. With spellcasting added on and deathwatch, at the penalty of lower BAB

Nothing of the Monk came to mind. The idea is that the Druid's body turns slowly a bit to living stone and a bit to animated wood. I was aiming toward ARMOR AC.
The "Alway Armed" stuff has 2 motivations:
1. A bit of compensation for the drastic depowering.
2. I see the Druid as an emisary of nature, a role that doesn't go very well with carried weapons. This concept also goes well with the AC that overlaps with light armor AC by level 8, so by level 9 he won't be carrying anything of combatative nature.
3. While others are always occupied with arming themselves to their teeth, my Druid's goal is to come as he is, with honest intentions and as little as possible threatening. You don't come as you are reeking with magic. At level 20, my type of druid is not supposed to possess ANY magical item. It feels right in terms of role and given his ties to the land.

Also, why force effects? I fail to see how that falls inline with the nature thing. Its prettymuch only a magic induced thing... no natural walls of force and such.

If your body "loses" its soft tissues and in a way turns to stone, it becomes resistant to elements in general.

Might be interesting to ditch the essence of life ability. You coulde replace it with a kind of reincarnation effeft. Mabey take a page from the vampire skill book. When a druid dies, it turns to vapor and flys away to a secluded wilderness area (A cave, deep forest grove with cairn stones, wolf den, you know something suitibally druid like) and regnerates. Part of the land cant really truly be destroyed easily. If you really wanted to have some fun, use the rules for the "Reincarnation" spell and make them roll to see what they are reincarnated as. (Or just let them come back as a young adult version of themselves)

1. The idea behind Essence of Life was that the Druid's life force - as a representative of life - is so powerful that it wards death away.
2. If I add reincarnation, don't I practically make the level-20 Druid unkillable ? Maybe it's managable if being killed in a desecrate place and/or his sacred area was destroyed would kill him permanently.
3. How would you suggest I deal with LA changes if I add the Reincarnation approach ?

I won't argue against the cliam that my build takes A LOT of the crunch, but I believe it adds a lot of fluff.
My Druid is not nearly as effective during combat, but way way more useful outside of combat. And in terms of survivability, no other class even comes close.
nonsi
08-04-07, 07:42 AM So, the cleric is overpowered, but this is improved by replacing him with a variant of the Favored soul with Turning and Domains and extra skill points? Sign my powergaming self up.

1. The Favored Soul is "so interesting" that almost nobody talks about it. It's PATHETIC - crunch and fluff. It should've never come to existance the way it did.
2. Indeed - limitless-access spontaneous spellcasting is too much. I guess I should limit the number of known spells to that of the Favored Soul (or to its spells-per-day).

The druid variant MIGHT be a nerf. MAYBE.

the ability to continue to cast, although limited, in wildshape, without even spending a feat.

1. As for the Cleric, so for the Druid - spells known.
2. I'd still take the feat - in a heartbeat. That's the main motivation behind this revised rule.

I'm not sure most druid players will approve or not, but it isn't in any danger of being overtaken by any core class not a full caster, and I think it might come out ahead.

1. poor BAB.
2. Natural Spell nerfed.
3. Wild Shape nerfed.
4. Being item-starved (see my previous reply) should definitely have its impact.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nonsi 08-03-07, 08:46 PM	Three notes regarding the Cleric: 1. The class is overpowered. Only a handful few would argue differently. 2. Spell preparation is a bummer and makes no sense. 3. The class is a one-man-arsenal-storage, but doesn't really manage to relay the "divine" feel. Here's an attempt to correct the above. BAB: poor Skills: Clerics have [4 + INT-mod] SkPts/level and also have Decipher Script and Sense Motive as class skill. Weapons and Armor: All Clerics start proficient with their deity's chosen weapon and with medium armor and shield. Spellcasting: Clerics are spontaneous casters – domain spells are also chosen spontaneously (but still 1 / day / level). Level Special ===================== 1st Turn / Rebuke Undead 2nd 3rd Divine Health 4th Bonus Feat 5th Divine Blessing 6th 7th Bonus Domain 8th Bonus Feat 9th 10th Second Sight 11th 12th Bonus Feat 13th 14th Bonus Domain 15th 16th Bonus Feat 17th 18th 19th 20th Bonus Feat Divine Health: The Cleric gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases. Bonus Feat: The cleric gains a bonus feat to be selected from: all divine / item-creation feats, Extra Turning and Iron Will. Divine Blessing: CHA-mod is applied to all saves. Bonus Domain: The Cleric gains access to another domain and may choose any domain that doesn't conflict with his ethos. Second Sight: A Cleric with this ability can see ethereal creatures, such as ghosts, as easily as she sees material creatures and objects. The Cleric can easily distinguish between ethereal creatures and material ones, because ethereal creatures appear translucent and indistinct. Revised Spells (from PHBI only – just too get the concept): - Harm/Heal: 5HP / level, up to 100. - Destruction: Modified to a 9th level - Gate: "Calling Creatures" option is canceled !!! Spells removed from the Cleric's standard list: - Righteous Might - Mass Harm/Heal - Implosion Cleric variants: Guild Cleric(must take Trickery and Luck): Loses: - Turn/Rebuke Undead - Second Sight - medium armor Gains: - Extra 2 kill points per level + Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently & Tumble as class skills. - Evasion, Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge at levels 2, 4 and 8 respectively. War Cleric(Must take Strength and War domains): Loses: - Turn/Rebuke Undead - Second Sight Gains: - Average BAB. - Uses d10 for HP calculations. - The bonus feats are assigned to combat instead of divine / item-creation feats, Extra Turning and Iron Will. - Only a War Cleric has access to the following spells: Divine Favor and Divine Power. From the few fantasy books I've read in my life and several scenes I've seen, I never saw the Druid archetype as someone built to dominate combat or hold a dinosaur on a leash. I picture the Druid as someone who starts as caretaker for the woods, evolves into a nature-bonded sage and eventually becomes a living conscious part of the land. Unlike all other classes, the Druid actually transforms physically as he grows in power. So here it is my take on the DRUID BAB: poor Skills & Skill points: Druids gain [6 + INT-mod] skill-points / level and also have Climb, Hide, Move Silently and Sense Motive as class skills. Weapons and Armor: The Scimitar is removed from the core weapons list. Druids start proficient only with light armor and with shield (which is neglected later on – see below). Spellcasting: Druids are spontaneous casters. Level \| Strength of the Land \| Special ======================================== ====================================== 1 \| \| Wild Empathy, Nature Sense 2 \| \| Druid Fire, Essence of Fey 3 \| Elemental Resistance 5 \| Woodland Stride, Trackless Step 4 \| +1 AC; DR 1 / Metal \| Resist Nature's Lure, Perfect Health 5 \| \| Wild Shape (medium, mammal) 6 \| Fast healing 1 \| Wild Shape (medium/small, mammal/reptile) 7 \| \| Wild Shape (medium/small, mammal/reptile/fish) 8 \| +2 AC; DR 2 / Metal \| Wild Shape (medium/small, mammal/reptile/fish/bird) 9 \| \| Poison Immunity, Staff of the Druid 10 \| Elemental Resistance 10 \| Wild Shape (medium/small/large, alternate form) 11 \| \| Wild Shape (medium/small/large/tiny, alternate form) 12 \| +3 AC; DR 3 / Metal \| Wild Shape (medium/small/large/tiny, alternate form/plant) 13 \| \| A Thousand Faces , Tongue of the Sun and the Moon 14 \| Fast healing 2 \| Timeless Body, Essence of Vitality 15 \| \| Wild Shape (elemental - 1 type / day), Immunity to unwanted polymorph 16 \| +4 AC; DR 4 / Metal \| Grand Staff of the Druid 17 \| Elemental Resistance 15 \| Wild Shape (elemental - 2 types / day) 18 \| \| Commune with Nature 19 \| \| Wild Shape (elemental – any type whenever desired) 20 \| +5 AC; DR 5 / Metal \| Essence of Life Strength of the Land: As the druid gains levels, his ties to the earth strengthen his essence. At lower levels, his skin becomes wood-like and at higher levels his skin becomes stone-like with "woody" patterns. This gives away the druid's nature. This bonus is lost in wild shape. Elemental Resistance: The Druid gains the indicated resistance against acid, cold, electricity, fire and force effects. Druid Fire: This ability is available 3 times a day and has 2 different applications: 1. Produce Flame effect with a twist. The druid may decide to produce a white flame that deals cold damage instead of heat, a black flame that quenches fire, or a green flame that deals double damage to undead only. 2. Faerie Fire: see the spell's description. Essence of Fey: The Druid gains Darkvision 60' (or 60' boost), Low Light Vision and immunity to sleep magic. These changes apply at all times and in all forms. Perfect Health: the druid is immune to disease – magical as well as mundane. Wild Shape – the ability is limitless and may be performed as a swift action. Staff of the Druid: The Druid never has to carry weapons. The Druid may manifest a "shillelagh"-ed quarterstaff at will. The druid may also apply Druid Fire with his quarterstaff. If the quarterstaff is disarmed or sundered, it disappears, only to reappear in the Druid's hands when his turn comes. The Druid has TWF and Weapon Focus: Quarterstaff. A Thousand Faces: This ability can also mask the Druid's unique skin patterns, but at a price of suppressing all benefits of "Strength of the Land". Essence of Vitality: The Druid receives the plant subtype and also becomes immune to all ability and level drain effects. Grand Staff of the Druid: The Druid's staff is considered to have had Ironwood applied to it, except its weight does not increase. It can bypass hardness as if made of adamantine. If the staff is disarmed or sundered, it reappears in the Druid's hands as an immediate action. The Druid now has Greater Weapon Focus and Quickstaff with his quarterstaff. Commune with Nature: The druid may cast Commune with Nature 3 times a day as a spell-like ability, with the casting time halved. Essence of Life: The druid is forever treated as affected by Death Ward. Moreover, his physical age returns to Adult (eliminating any age penalties) and he never dies of old age. There was a well aimed thematic motivation behind each added or modified class features: - Strength of the Land – Becoming a part of the land, the Druid slowly drifts – a little bit toward stone and a little bit toward plant - Druid Fire – As caretaker of the woods, the Druid sometimes needs to use fire for various applications. Some of the times he has to extinguish it and sometimes he has to fend against the very opposite of life - undeath. - Essence of Fey – Just like Fey, the Druid is a part of nature and yet magical. This class feature assists the Druid to roam his surroundings at night and keep a watchful eye against invaders, and gives him the advantage. - Perfect Health – In real life nearly all diseases and all cures come from nature. The Druid's ties to the magical nature provide protection against all diseases. - Staff of the Druid – The Druid is not just a forest protector and a part of nature, but also an emissary of nature. It is not very fitting for an emissary to carry arms all the time. This also serves to enhance the archetype (There's nothing that feels more correct than Druid + Staff) and somewhat compensates the dramatic depowering. - Essence of Vitality – This is one of the Druid's most significant transformation stages. He gains the "plant" subtype and his life essence gains an unnatural strength. - Tongue of the Sun and the Moon – Combat is but one method of dealing with intruders. Diplomacy is the preferred alternative. The Druid is initially hospitable to all visitors before categorizing them as invaders. In order to be diplomatic to everyone, you have to be able to talk to everyone. - Grand Staff of the Druid – The Druid has but one tool to use in combat. This tool is a part of him and evolves with him. - Commune with Nature – I believe no explanation is necessary. - Essence of Life – The Druid's transformation is complete. He's now become a part of the land. The land never fades away, so neither does the Druid. Spell list modifications Spells removed from the Druid's list: - Guidance (0) – Druids cannot turn to mystical insights - Virtue (0) – Utterly useless and thematically meaningless - Foresight (9) – Druids cannot turn to mystical insights. Spells added to the Druid's list: - Polymorph (4) - Break Enchantment (5) Natural Spell feat is canceled, but the ability is not entirely ommited: In Wild Shape the Druid's magical access is far more limited. Starting at 6th level, the Druid has access to 1st level spells only. With each additional 3 levels (9, 12, 15 and 18) the next spell level may be accessed in Wild Shape (max 5th at level 18).
ToastedAmphibian 08-03-07, 09:08 PM	I cant speak as to the balance of these classes or to that of the originals, so i wont try. However, your druid sounds kina like a monk... What with teh armor increases and teh always armed thing.. disease imunity and no ageing penalty. With spellcasting added on and deathwatch, at the penalty of lower BAB Also, why force effects? I fail to see how that falls inline with the nature thing. Its prettymuch only a magic induced thing... no natural walls of force and such. Might be interesting to ditch the essence of life ability. You coulde replace it with a kind of reincarnation effeft. Mabey take a page from the vampire skill book. When a druid dies, it turns to vapor and flys away to a secluded wilderness area (A cave, deep forest grove with cairn stones, wolf den, you know something suitibally druid like) and regnerates. Part of the land cant really truly be destroyed easily. If you really wanted to have some fun, use the rules for the "Reincarnation" spell and make them roll to see what they are reincarnated as. (Or just let them come back as a young adult version of themselves)
Gnaeus 08-03-07, 09:09 PM	So, the cleric is overpowered, but this is improved by replacing him with a variant of the Favored soul with Turning and Domains and extra skill points? Sign my powergaming self up. The druid variant MIGHT be a nerf. MAYBE. It is like the shapeshifting variant, but with more variety, and a ton of special abilities, and the ability to continue to cast, although limited, in wildshape, without even spending a feat. I'm not sure most druid players will approve or not, but it isn't in any danger of being overtaken by any core class not a full caster, and I think it might come out ahead.
nonsi 08-04-07, 07:24 AM	However, your druid sounds kina like a monk... What with teh armor increases and teh always armed thing.. disease imunity and no ageing penalty. With spellcasting added on and deathwatch, at the penalty of lower BAB Nothing of the Monk came to mind. The idea is that the Druid's body turns slowly a bit to living stone and a bit to animated wood. I was aiming toward ARMOR AC. The "Alway Armed" stuff has 2 motivations: 1. A bit of compensation for the drastic depowering. 2. I see the Druid as an emisary of nature, a role that doesn't go very well with carried weapons. This concept also goes well with the AC that overlaps with light armor AC by level 8, so by level 9 he won't be carrying anything of combatative nature. 3. While others are always occupied with arming themselves to their teeth, my Druid's goal is to come as he is, with honest intentions and as little as possible threatening. You don't come as you are reeking with magic. At level 20, my type of druid is not supposed to possess ANY magical item. It feels right in terms of role and given his ties to the land. Also, why force effects? I fail to see how that falls inline with the nature thing. Its prettymuch only a magic induced thing... no natural walls of force and such. If your body "loses" its soft tissues and in a way turns to stone, it becomes resistant to elements in general. Might be interesting to ditch the essence of life ability. You coulde replace it with a kind of reincarnation effeft. Mabey take a page from the vampire skill book. When a druid dies, it turns to vapor and flys away to a secluded wilderness area (A cave, deep forest grove with cairn stones, wolf den, you know something suitibally druid like) and regnerates. Part of the land cant really truly be destroyed easily. If you really wanted to have some fun, use the rules for the "Reincarnation" spell and make them roll to see what they are reincarnated as. (Or just let them come back as a young adult version of themselves) 1. The idea behind Essence of Life was that the Druid's life force - as a representative of life - is so powerful that it wards death away. 2. If I add reincarnation, don't I practically make the level-20 Druid unkillable ? Maybe it's managable if being killed in a desecrate place and/or his sacred area was destroyed would kill him permanently. 3. How would you suggest I deal with LA changes if I add the Reincarnation approach ? I won't argue against the cliam that my build takes A LOT of the crunch, but I believe it adds a lot of fluff. My Druid is not nearly as effective during combat, but way way more useful outside of combat. And in terms of survivability, no other class even comes close.
nonsi 08-04-07, 07:42 AM	So, the cleric is overpowered, but this is improved by replacing him with a variant of the Favored soul with Turning and Domains and extra skill points? Sign my powergaming self up. 1. The Favored Soul is "so interesting" that almost nobody talks about it. It's PATHETIC - crunch and fluff. It should've never come to existance the way it did. 2. Indeed - limitless-access spontaneous spellcasting is too much. I guess I should limit the number of known spells to that of the Favored Soul (or to its spells-per-day). The druid variant MIGHT be a nerf. MAYBE. the ability to continue to cast, although limited, in wildshape, without even spending a feat. 1. As for the Cleric, so for the Druid - spells known. 2. I'd still take the feat - in a heartbeat. That's the main motivation behind this revised rule. I'm not sure most druid players will approve or not, but it isn't in any danger of being overtaken by any core class not a full caster, and I think it might come out ahead. 1. poor BAB. 2. Natural Spell nerfed. 3. Wild Shape nerfed. 4. Being item-starved (see my previous reply) should definitely have its impact.