Post/Author/DateTime	Post
elven warriorXX 01-10-06, 01:38 PM	Here is a remake of the druid because the druid is the most overpowered class ever made by WOTC and here is why: The druid has always been the most powerful class in the game. Sure its spell list is limited but it still gets full 9 levels of spells along with a medium BAB and 2 good saves along with some high skill ranks and good skills. This would make a class powerful enough, because of the unofficial rule made by WOTC (this is just based on what they have done) that all Divine class must be at lest x2 as powerful as other classes to make people play the boring Divine magic. I am not saying Divine magic is underpowered oh no! I am saying that Divine magic does not have the flare or the flash of Arcane magic. Some may say different but that is what I think. Sure You can have fun with Divine classes but If I had to choose between the Sorcerer(most underpowered caster in the game) and the Cleric I would choose the Sorcerer. Now the most powerful ability of the Mighty druid is the Wildshape. Yes I know it does not seem powerful at first but with feats and spell combos it becomes crazily overpowered. The druid is a better Jack-of-all-trades then the Bard, Better fighter then the Paladin, more sneaky then the Rogue and more powerful then the Wizard. I don't think its right that the druid does other classes abilities much better then they can. So because of this I am fixing the all mighty druid and making him not so powerful. First we have to fix the Polymorph spells as the Druids Wildshape is based on Polymorph. Here are some fixes. 1) You can use Rich's Polymorph fix here (http://www.giantitp.com/Func0012.html). It stops a lot of Abuse to Shapechaning spells 2) You can base Shape chaning spells on a creature CR or ECL instead of HD. 3)You become the creature fully. You loss all spellcasting and everthing else but gain everthing as if you were the creature. When you change shape just pull out the MM and use its stats block. Now here are some fixes to the Wildshape: 1)(created by allencon) Wild shape: At 1-5th level a druid may select a medium sized non-magical animal form which it may assume the shape of. Transforming takes a full round action. A druid only ever learns to assume the form of one medium animal, one small animal starting at 11th level and one large animal form starting at 16th level. Once in the animal form it uses all the statistics, abilites, saves, and features of the animal form. A druid may not cast spells, or communicate if the animal form can't speak, while in its animal form. A druid must select an animal form with which it is intimately familiar with and occurs naturally within the climate or terrain native to the druid. A 1-5th level druid may assume it's animal form for a number of rounds equal to its constitution modifier 1 time per day. A druid of 6-10th level may assume the form a medium sized animal 2 times per day for a number of rounds equal to his constitution modifier. A druid of 11th-15th level may assume the form of a medium sized animal 3 times per day for a number of rounds equal to his constitution modifier. A druid of 11th-15 level may now also choose a small animal form to assume, following the same selection procedure for selecting a medium animal form. A druid may assume the form of the small animal form 1 time per day for a number of rounds equal to his constitution modifier. A druid of 16th-20th level may assume the form a medium sized animal 4 times per day for a number of rounds equal to his constitution modifier. A druid of 16th-20th level may assume the form of a small animal 2 times per day for a number of rounds equal to his constitution modifier. A druid of 16th-20th level may also assume the form of a large animal, using the same selection procedure for choosing a medium animal form. A druid of 16th-20th level may assume the form of a large animal 1 time per day for a number of rounds equal to his constitution modifier. A druid in animal form uses all the statistics of the animal form, even if his personal statistics may be higher. A druid may dismiss his animal form before its time limit expiers, but any unused rounds are wasted for that use per day. 2)Limit wildshape so that the druid only knows 3 forms when they first get it. At every 2 levels after they gain a new one and when they gain Wildshape huge and Wildshape plant they gain 1 form from realted to there new ability (Huge grants you one huge animal, plant grants you 1 plant creature). This will also need a feat that gives the Druid 1 more form. 3)Changing into a Combat shape (determend by the DM) last for only 1 minute per druid level. Wildshaping takes 1 full round. Okay what I did is make the Druid cast spells like a sorcerer (still can swap out spells for a new spell at 4th level and every 2 levels after) and limited Wildshape a bit more. Here is the Druids new Spells per day/spells know. Table: Spells Known Level Spells Known 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 1st 4 2 — — — — — — — — 2nd 5 2 — — — — — — — — 3rd 5 3 1 — — — — — — — 4th 6 3 2 — — — — — — — 5th 6 4 2 1 — — — — — — 6th 7 4 3 2 — — — — — — 7th 7 5 3 2 1 — — — — — 8th 8 5 4 3 2 — — — — — 9th 8 5 4 3 2 1 — — — — 10th 9 5 5 4 3 2 — — — — 11th 9 5 5 4 3 2 1 — — — 12th 9 5 5 5 4 3 2 — — — 13th 9 5 5 5 4 3 2 1 — — 14th 9 5 5 5 5 4 3 2 — — 15th 9 5 5 5 5 4 3 2 1 — 16th 9 5 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 — 17th 9 5 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 18th 9 5 5 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 19th 9 5 5 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 20th 9 5 5 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 Level Spells per Day 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 1st 3 2 — — — — — — — — 2nd 4 3 — — — — — — — — 3rd 4 4 2 — — — — — — — 4th 5 5 3 — — — — — — — 5th 5 5 4 2 — — — — — — 6th 6 5 5 3 — — — — — — 7th 6 6 5 4 2 — — — — — 8th 6 6 5 5 3 — — — — — 9th 6 6 5 5 4 2 — — — — 10th 6 6 6 5 5 3 — — — — 11th 6 6 6 5 5 4 2 — — — 12th 6 6 6 6 5 4 3 — — — 13th 6 6 6 6 5 4 4 2 — — 14th 6 6 6 6 6 5 4 3 — — 15th 6 6 6 6 6 5 4 4 2 — 16th 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 4 3 — 17th 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 4 3 2 18th 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 5 4 3 19th 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 5 4 3 20th 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 And here is the Druids new Wildshape table (every thing else is the same). 1) 2) 3) 4) 5)Wild shape (1/day) 6)Wild shape (2/day) 7) 8)Wild shape (3/day) 9) 10)Wild shape (Large) 11)Wild shape 4/day 12)Wild shape (tiny) 13) 14)Wild shape (plant) 15) 16) 17)Wild shape Elemental 1/day 18)Wild shape 5/day 19) 20)Wild shape Elemental 2/day (huge) I will also be posting a more Clerical druid later. The Clerical druid will have better wildshape then even the Core Druid and better spellcasting for a Poor BAB and 1 good save. You may want to also lower the Fort save of the Druid to below: 1)+1 2)+1 3)+2 4)+2 5)+3 6)+3 7)+3 8)+4 9)+4 10)+5 11)+5 12)+6 13)+6 14)+6 15)+7 16)+7 17)+8 18)+8 19)+9 20)+9 Clerical druid Here is a more of a Shamanic druid. Same skills and everything else as the Druid. BAB is poor and Fort save is Poor. SpellcastingThe Shamanic druid uses the Core Druids spell per day chart with a +1 on all spells as a Cleric. This +1 is a Nature domain slot that the Shamanic druid fills with a Domain they choose at 1st level. The Domains a Shamanic druid can choose are: Animal, Plant, fire, water, earth, sun, and air. The Shamanic druid also has a new spell list (will be posted later). Wildshape When they first choose wildshape they choose 1 animal they know that they can shift into. They gain more forms as they go up in levels. When it says Large by the new form ability it means that you could either choose a large creature or another medium/small creature. You start off only being able to choose and animal of Medium or Small size. 1) 2) 3) 4) 5) 6) Wildshape 2/day 7) 8)Wildshape 3/day 9)New form (large) 10)Wildshape 4/day 11) 12)Wildshape 5/day 13)New form (tiny) 14)Wildshape 6/day 15)New form (plant) 16)Wildshape 7/day 17)New form (small elemental) 18)Wildshape 8/day 19)New form (Medium elemental) 20)Wildshape 9/day The new druid spell list Here is a less divine spell list for the Druid. The Shamanic druid uses the the old druid spell list. Spells added *=found in SpC 1) burning hands, sleep, shocking grasp, chill touch, feather fall 2)Gust of wind, Darkness 3)web, Flaming sphere, blur 4)Deep slumber, Daylight, Blast of flame* 5)fireball, Ice storm, Shout, Wall of fire, Wall of ice 6)wall of stone, Cone of cold 7) 8)Polar ray, Sunburst 9)
elven warriorXX 01-11-06, 07:42 PM	Okay made some changes
Grug the Just 01-11-06, 07:47 PM	I guess the best way to put this is; I really don't see much of a problem with druids as is. Could you please explain your point of view. It feels like I walked into the middle of a thread.
elven warriorXX 01-11-06, 08:45 PM	Sure I will post what I think on the top post
Elemental_Elf 01-11-06, 08:48 PM	I guess the best way to put this is; I really don't see much of a problem with druids as is. Could you please explain your point of view. It feels like I walked into the middle of a thread. Most people have a problem with Druids being overpowered. It'd be hard not to find a Cleric/Druid bashing thread :weep:
elven warriorXX 01-11-06, 09:27 PM	Most people have a problem with Druids being overpowered. It'd be hard not to find a Cleric/Druid bashing thread :weep: I love the flavors of Druids/Clerics but they are overpowered to all classes as the Arcane casters are more powerful then all martial classes and the Divine casters are more powerful then the Arcane ones. Game balance is a joke made by WOTC. For PERFECTLY balanced classes look here (http://www.freewebs.com/lotuscrane/work.htm)
Jaime_Wolf 01-11-06, 09:36 PM	Hrm, while I really doubt that WotC appreciates being insulted on boards they run, and think that you are somewhat ungrateful for insulting them here, I do agree with you about the druid being overpowered. A hard-and-fast rule is not what's needed though. Yes, druids can heal themselves and buff themselves, but their magical offensive potential is pretty much only against undead. Thus the BAB, and I have no problem with that, they're still not going to be dealing the kind of damage a well-built melee character would and their main advantage is staying power (being able to heal themselves, and a fighter could just HAVE a cleric heal him, this is a cooperative game, not a competition). I'll give you a hint regarding the solution, it starts with a D and ends with an M. It's his job to make sure those complete abuses of wildshape don't happen. DM's shouldn't have carte blanche, but neither should players. If a player tells me he's doing something completely unbalancing I simply say "No, you're not." Problem solved, DM's shouldn't randomly exercise their will simply because they can, but in a legitimate situation, they are SUPPOSED to limit things and make the game run more smoothly. Edit: Also, there's no such thing as perfectly balanced classes, and the classes at that website are no exception, groups need to be coordinated to be balanced, just about any class can be broken with a little bit of effort and can rise above any class in a game with other characters that are being played in a balanced manner (look at the CO boards if you want proof).
elven warriorXX 01-11-06, 09:46 PM	Hrm, while I really doubt that WotC appreciates being insulted on boards they run, and think that you are somewhat ungrateful for insulting them here, I do agree with you about the druid being overpowered. A hard-and-fast rule is not what's needed though. Yes, druids can heal themselves and buff themselves, but their magical offensive potential is pretty much only against undead. Thus the BAB, and I have no problem with that, they're still not going to be dealing the kind of damage a well-built melee character would and their main advantage is staying power (being able to heal themselves, and a fighter could just HAVE a cleric heal him, this is a cooperative game, not a competition). I'll give you a hint regarding the solution, it starts with a D and ends with an M. It's his job to make sure those complete abuses of wildshape don't happen. DM's shouldn't have carte blanche, but neither should players. If a player tells me he's doing something completely unbalancing I simply say "No, you're not." Problem solved, DM's shouldn't randomly exercise their will simply because they can, but in a legitimate situation, they are SUPPOSED to limit things and make the game run more smoothly. Edit: Also, there's no such thing as perfectly balanced classes, and the classes at that website are no exception, groups need to be coordinated to be balanced, just about any class can be broken with a little bit of effort and can rise above any class in a game with other characters that are being played in a balanced manner (look at the CO boards if you want proof). I see what you mean But I still want people to use this class for a lesspowerful druid. Umm...I am sorry great wizOs!! please don't hurt me :weep:
elven warriorXX 01-12-06, 10:18 AM	Okay added some stuff about a lower Fort save for the druid.
Ruhl-Than Sage 01-12-06, 10:48 AM	Polymorphing/Shapechanging in general needs to be changed. First off, they need to stop granting type, and only grant subtypes as appropriate. That eliminates a lot of abuses right there. Second they need to name the disguise bonus granted by those spells. As it is right now you can cast polymorph, alter self, and disguise self and have all of the disguise bonuses stack. There are a lot of other things wrong as well but I don't have time to get into it right now.
elven warriorXX 01-12-06, 10:59 AM	I will add a bit about some Polymorph fixes above.
elven warriorXX 01-12-06, 12:09 PM	Made some polymorph fixes and Added the Shamanic druid.
elven warriorXX 01-13-06, 03:42 PM	added the new Druid spell list.
Tony Vargas 01-13-06, 05:27 PM	The druid has always been the most powerful class in the game. I played druids extensively back in the day. The 1E druid was not exactly overpowered, though the could be pretty effective when well played and had some unique advantages. 1st level was pretty sad. The spells available weren't much, not even CLW, but, you could make good use of Entangle if there were plenty of plants about, and Faerie Fire underground. 2nd & 3rd were awesome, because the Druid's whacked spell progression gave him 2nd and 3rd level spells at those levels! And, unlike the 1st level spells there were some good 2nd level ones (Heat/Chill metal, for instance), and some very good 3rd (Summon Insects, Call Lightning, Protection f/Fire, Cure Disease & Nutralize Poison - both reversible in 1E). 4-6th didn't offer a lot, no 4th level spells, no substantial special abilities, but the exp chart made those levels go by quickly. 7th you got shapechange (not nearly as whacked crazy broken as 3.5 Wildshape, but still useful). After that your spell progression was fairly normal through 11th, and your spell progression normalized. But, the higher level spells, with a few exceptions, like Wall of Fire and Conjure Fire Elemental weren't all that awesome. Your whole spell list really suffered from dependence on a wilderness environment - but there were always a few fire or earth spells you could put to excellent use in dungeons, as well. Then at 12th everything goes nutso again, you get 7th level spells (only Magic-users got 8th & 9th in 1E), and you start getting a lot of higher level spells as you go up, but you have to /fight/ your way up the last three steps of the hierarcy to Druid (12), Archdruid (13) & Great Druid (14th - and there can only be one at a time), and the exp to level becomes outrageous. Then you're DONE. No more levels for you, doesn't matter how much exp you get, you're 14th until some up-and-coming Archdruid kicks your ass and you become 13th. Most powerful class in the game? Not hardly. 2E was worse. The Druid kept the same whacky exp chart, so his progression from 1-3rd and past 10th level or so was still painfully slow, but he no longer had the matching spell progression, he got the same spell progression as the cleric. Then some of the best Druid spells were either shared with the Cleric, or take from the Druid and given to the Cleric. Most screwed class in the game was more like it. The 3.0 Druid didn't have it a whole lot better. His animal companions tended to be more hendrance than help, he was the only class saddled with lame 1E-style weapon & armor restrictions and, while Polymorph, and thus Wildshape, was still mechancially broken, the list of forms he could assume wasn't quite as impressive, and there was no Natural Spell. 3.5 finally made it up to the would-be Druid for putting up with a sucky class for over a decade - but, as usually, the pendulum swung too far in the other direction and the class ended up overpowered. Now the most powerful ability of the Mighty druid is the Wildshape. First we have to fix the Polymorph spells as the Druids Wildshape is based on Polymorph. Here are some fixes. 1) You can use Rich's Polymorph fix here (http://www.giantitp.com/Func0012.html). It stops a lot of Abuse to Shapechaning spellsIt's not a bad fix. The biggest problem with Polymorph is that it replaces physical stats. When 3E came out, every item and spell that replaced a stat in earlier editions had been weeded out (3E places a lot of importance on stats, so it's easy to see why), but then Polymorph was given exactly that mechanic that had been otherwise purged completely from the game. Major goof. Still not fixed. There's a similar problem with Natural Armor. Natural Armor seemed to be used to round up every monsters AC to wherever it needed to be to work for thier CR, no matter how big, clumsy, unmagical or unarmored the monster might be. Fine for monsters, but for a PC buffed with spells and dripping with magic items the results are insane. Instead of replacing stats & Natural armor, polymorph should simply give enhancement bonuses (or penalties) to bring the subject closer to the target form. That'd prevent 'stacking' with other common stat-boosting effects. But, that still doesn't entirely fix wildshape. The other thing that breaks Wildshape in Natural Spell. With it, and wildshape's long durration, a Druid can avail himself of the advantages of an alternate form while still casting spells with no difficulty. Other characters who want to shift to a non-casting form and still cast would need Silent & Still Spell (and probably Eschew Materials) and would be casting all thier spells as if they were 2 levels higher! 3 feats and using 3rd level slots for first level spells and prepping the spells with those feats in advance or spending extra time to cast them spontaneously, vs 1 feat and unlimitted casting. Nope, not balanced. Fix: Make Natural Spell a metamagic feat. Have it add +1 level (you may need Silent & Still to 'fake' NS, but they still do more than it does). Remove the Wildshape preq so that other casters can take it. Okay what I did is make the Druid cast spells like a sorcerer Not a bad idea, really. It makes Druids more distinct from Clerics, gives thier magic a more naturalistic feel and also nicely rounds out the PH classes, with both spontaneous and prepped casters on both the arcane & divine sides. Adding spells to the Druid list might be a bad idea, though, as the list is currently pretty limitted in some ways. Also, a lot of druid spells have pretty specific effects, making them poor choices for sorcerer-style spells-known...
allencon 01-13-06, 06:19 PM	although this is a bit of repost it strives to rebalance the druid. what do you think? 1. Reduce the hit die of the druid to a d6 2. Armor and Weapon prohibition: Because of the Druid's philosophical issues with manufactured goods, they have no proficientcy with ANY weapons, even simple weapons, or any armor. If a druid ever willfully uses weapons of any sort beyond unarmed strike, or armor of any sort, even items such as bracers of armor, or amulets of natural armor, etc., he irrevocably looses all class features and can never advance in the druid class again. 3. Bonus feat. At first level a druid gains the improved unarmed strike feat as a bonus feat. 4. Base Attack Progression and Saves: The rebalanced druid uses the base attack and save progression of the ranger. When in wildform, it uses the base attack and save progression of the animal form selected, even if these progressions are lower than that of its humanoid form. 5. Spellcasting: The rebalanced druid may only cast "cure light" or "inflict light" spells per day. A 1-5th level druid may cast cure/inflict light wounds 1 time per day. A 6th-10th level druid may cast cure/inflict light wounds 2 times per day. An 11th-15th level druid may cast cure/inflict light wounds 3 times per day. A 16th-20th level druid may cast cure/inflict light wounds 4 times per day. A druid may cast these spells spontaneously without prior preparation. 6. Wild shape: At 1-5th level a druid may select a medium sized non-magical animal form which it may assume the shape of. Transforming takes a full round action. A druid only ever learns to assume the form of one medium animal, one small animal starting at 11th level and one large animal form starting at 16th level. Once in the animal form it uses all the statistics, abilites, saves, and features of the animal form. A druid may not cast spells, or communicate if the animal form can't speak, while in its animal form. A druid must select an animal form with which it is intimately familiar with and occurs naturally within the climate or terrain native to the druid. A 1-5th level druid may assume it's animal form for a number of rounds equal to its constitution modifier 1 time per day. A druid of 6-10th level may assume the form a medium sized animal 2 times per day for a number of rounds equal to his constitution modifier. A druid of 11th-15th level may assume the form of a medium sized animal 3 times per day for a number of rounds equal to his constitution modifier. A druid of 11th-15 level may now also choose a small animal form to assume, following the same selection procedure for selecting a medium animal form. A druid may assume the form of the small animal form 1 time per day for a number of rounds equal to his constitution modifier. A druid of 16th-20th level may assume the form a medium sized animal 4 times per day for a number of rounds equal to his constitution modifier. A druid of 16th-20th level may assume the form of a small animal 2 times per day for a number of rounds equal to his constitution modifier. A druid of 16th-20th level may also assume the form of a large animal, using the same selection procedure for choosing a medium animal form. A druid of 16th-20th level may assume the form of a large animal 1 time per day for a number of rounds equal to his constitution modifier. A druid in animal form uses all the statistics of the animal form, even if his personal statistics may be higher. A druid may dismiss his animal form before its time limit expiers, but any unused rounds are wasted for that use per day. 7. Skill points and class skills: A druid gains skill points at the same rate. The rebalanced druid's skill list includes: balance, climb, concentration, diplomacy, escape artist, gather information, heal, hide, knw. arcana, knw. animals, knw, herbalism, knw. religion, knw. nature, knw. plants, knw. the planes, handle animal, move silently, ride, search, jump, spot, listen, tumble, swim, spellcraft, craft, profession, perform, sense motive, intimidate, and use rope. 8. All other features of the druid remain unchanged. In this rebalanced form the druid shares more in common with survivalists, and isn't capable of abusing "pseudo-lycanthropy" for free status, from animal shape.
elven warriorXX 01-13-06, 08:29 PM	Thank you for your time and ideas :) They help a lot. Here are some more fixes. 1) Limit wildshape so that the druid only knows 3 forms when they first get it. At every 2 levels after they gain a new one and when they gain Wildshape huge and Wildshape plant they gain 1 form from realted to there new ability (Huge grants you one huge animal, plant grants you 1 plant creature). This will also need a feat that gives the Druid 1 more form. 2) Here is another Wildshape fix: Changing into a Combat shape (determend by the DM) last for only 1 minute per druid level. Wildshaping takes 1 full round.
Ziatyn Phoenixwolf 01-13-06, 08:35 PM	I will keep the druid as is. I am unfond of any changes that I have seen from anyone claming to "rebalance" the class. The only thing that I can say is just get rid of the natural spell feat; I do not like it any way.
-Defiler of Souls- 01-13-06, 09:00 PM	quite frankly i think that people complain too much about class balance....things really aren't that bad, i'm currently playing a martial character and I'm doing just fine. as for the link above, i'd have to disagree that it is a more balanced system, some of the stuff there is more powerful then the largest problems in the current system. Most of the new feats in the power attack family are insanely overpowered... Power attack is already a very potent ability with the 2 for 1 tradeoff with a two-handed weapon. a non situational 3 or 4 for 1 is just overpowered. As for cleave i can agree supreme cleave is reasonable, but beyond that its too strong to be a feat. i don't really have time to read all the changes, but i guesse that link wasn't exactly the point of this thread anyway the point is that things aren't nearly as bad as many people think. Every class in the current system shines in some way, and any attempts to make every class excel equally in all fields will only meet with failure.
elven warriorXX 01-13-06, 09:48 PM	I will keep the druid as is. I am unfond of any changes that I have seen from anyone claming to "rebalance" the class. The only thing that I can say is just get rid of the natural spell feat; I do not like it any way. Indeed I am starting to see that the Druid is not as overpowered as I thought. But Wildshape still needs work. So I think letting them use the old wildshape table but limit the forms of animals that the Druid can take would be okay. I mean if you let books like MM2 and MM3 in your game the Druid being able to turn into ANY animal is very overpower. So limiting the Shapes to 2 per level would balance it out. I think the Druid should be a Spontaneous caster as it fits the Class concept better. If you want a balanced Druid that prepares spells then maybe lowering the skill points and making the Fort save Poor and using the Limited shapes would do it. Right now the Druid PC (even though it is the same level as the Rogue) is dominating
elven warriorXX 01-15-06, 02:04 PM	Added some more wildshape changes
A_monk_00 01-15-06, 03:05 PM	although this is a bit of repost it strives to rebalance the druid. what do you think? If by rebalance, you mean weakest ever, then, yes, you have succeeded wonderfully. At 20th level, you're talking about a class who (while in 'druid' form), deal a whopping 1d3 damage per hit, or if they want to use one of their wonderfully underpowered spells, 1d8+5. Or they can choose to heal their fighter (20th level with a straight average of 100 hit points, no Con bonus) for that same 1d8+5, four times for an absolute maximum of 52 hit points. And that's in a perfect world. In the real D&D world, a fighter is likely to have well over 250 hit points, and you would be able to heal for right about 26 of that. But then you wouldn't have your super damage spell to augment your melee prowess. If I had to play as this form of a druid, I would be first in line when that blacksmith opened up to grab a sword and hit the guy. Just so I would "irrevocably lose all class features and never be able to advance in the druid class again." Druids aren't overpowered. Just stop playing with powergamers and get a DM that isn't afraid of doing a little more work than whatever is written in the books.
LeafDancer 01-15-06, 03:20 PM	I do agree druids are a alittle overpowered, but I dont see why everyone cares... I mean, dnd isnt like other games, were if a specific class or charicter is overpowered its unfair, its role play, and unless your power gaming I dont think anyone should care.
elven warriorXX 01-15-06, 09:18 PM	If by rebalance, you mean weakest ever, then, yes, you have succeeded wonderfully. At 20th level, you're talking about a class who (while in 'druid' form), deal a whopping 1d3 damage per hit, or if they want to use one of their wonderfully underpowered spells, 1d8+5. Or they can choose to heal their fighter (20th level with a straight average of 100 hit points, no Con bonus) for that same 1d8+5, four times for an absolute maximum of 52 hit points. And that's in a perfect world. In the real D&D world, a fighter is likely to have well over 250 hit points, and you would be able to heal for right about 26 of that. But then you wouldn't have your super damage spell to augment your melee prowess. If I had to play as this form of a druid, I would be first in line when that blacksmith opened up to grab a sword and hit the guy. Just so I would "irrevocably lose all class features and never be able to advance in the druid class again." Druids aren't overpowered. Just stop playing with powergamers and get a DM that isn't afraid of doing a little more work than whatever is written in the books. Well a 2oth level druid could do up to 1d8+20 damage with a longsword and even more damage if he buffs him self up. A druid could launch a Fireball that deals 10d6 damage, This is by far not 1d8+5. Also You do not use all of the Options above. You choose one of each catagory and play with it. In animal form the druid could be dealing 2d4+10 damage per attack and can cast spells with Natural spell. If the Druid is in Elemental form he can deal 4d8+8+2d8 damage per round (if a fire elemental) along with Natural spell. I do agree druids are a alittle overpowered, but I dont see why everyone cares... I mean, dnd isnt like other games, were if a specific class or charicter is overpowered its unfair, its role play, and unless your power gaming I dont think anyone should care. This is a good point. I am just puting the Weakend Wildshape tbale for people that think the Druids wildshape is overpowered. The only thing I would do is make the Druid cast spells like a Sorcerer, and fix polymorph (with one of the fixes above).
A_monk_00 01-15-06, 09:57 PM	Well a 2oth level druid could do up to 1d8+20 damage with a longsword and even more damage if he buffs him self up. A druid could launch a Fireball that deals 10d6 damage, This is by far not 1d8+5. Also You do not use all of the Options above. You choose one of each catagory and play with it. In animal form the druid could be dealing 2d4+10 damage per attack and can cast spells with Natural spell. If the Druid is in Elemental form he can deal 4d8+8+2d8 damage per round (if a fire elemental) along with Natural spell. Hooray for reading comprehension. I was replying to allencon's proposed druid 'fix' as it says on the quote on top of my post.
elven warriorXX 01-15-06, 09:58 PM	Hooray for reading comprehension. I was replying to allencon's proposed druid 'fix' as it says on the quote on top of my post. oh XD stupid me lol
elven warriorXX 02-02-06, 09:44 AM	Just a bump for those people that need a Druid fix for there game
Clawhound 02-02-06, 12:08 PM	1) I like the limit on the number of druid forms. That works. I dislike the limited time in wildshape. In our game, the duration of being in a form has not been a problem. We've done the opposite: we lengthened out the time that Bear Warrior could stay in bear form. Everyone found this fun. 2) A breaker for druids is their ability to keep equipment in wildshape, especially the humanoid shapes. Nix this. Only amulets and necklaces should carry over into wildshape. If you want to carry any more items over, you need to either get a feat, or the appropriate magical ability put on the item. Either way, it should be limited and/or expensive. (Much brokeness involves wildshaping into ape form.)
elven warriorXX 02-02-06, 12:57 PM	1) I like the limit on the number of druid forms. That works. I dislike the limited time in wildshape. In our game, the duration of being in a form has not been a problem. We've done the opposite: we lengthened out the time that Bear Warrior could stay in bear form. Everyone found this fun. 2) A breaker for druids is their ability to keep equipment in wildshape, especially the humanoid shapes. Nix this. Only amulets and necklaces should carry over into wildshape. If you want to carry any more items over, you need to either get a feat, or the appropriate magical ability put on the item. Either way, it should be limited and/or expensive. (Much brokeness involves wildshaping into ape form.) I too think that equipment should meld into the form and be useless.