Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Good 08-18-05, 04:40 PM	Would it be fair to give the Sorc 4+int for skills (because a wizard or a psion's caster ability is tied to int, which is obviously the same for skills)? Would it be fair to give Sorcs Eschew Materials for free at first level, much like the Wizard gets Scribe Scroll? Would it be fair to give sorcs bonus feats at the same levels psions and wizards get them? Finally, a friend suggested that a sorc be a Cha based psion with the sorc spell list. Think that's fair? Good.
Azri 08-18-05, 05:58 PM	I think the sorc class is a mistake: it's unfinished and flavorless. It's not a magic-in-the-blood class like the Warlock, despite the flavor text in the PHB, since it uses wizard spells and the Vancian spellcasting system. It's the result of an alternate spellcasting method shoehorned into the existing rules. I don't think you can fix it with bonus feats, additional spells known, or bloodlines without overpowering it or losing the class's focus and flavor, as thin as it is. I believe that the sorc class will disappear when the XPH's magic system replaces the Vancian system.
LordHell 08-18-05, 06:02 PM	Knowstones + Free Eschew Materials at level 1 + Ability to use Rods of Quicken = Balanced Sorcerer. The day the XPH magic system replaces the current system is the day D&D loses a huge percentage of its following.
TheDarkestOfAngels 08-18-05, 07:19 PM	I think the sorc class is a mistake: it's unfinished and flavorless. It's not a magic-in-the-blood class like the Warlock, despite the flavor text in the PHB, since it uses wizard spells and the Vancian spellcasting system. It's the result of an alternate spellcasting method shoehorned into the existing rules. I don't think you can fix it with bonus feats, additional spells known, or bloodlines without overpowering it or losing the class's focus and flavor, as thin as it is. I believe that the sorc class will disappear when the XPH's magic system replaces the Vancian system. It never was a 'magic in the blood' class to any degree of the warlock by any stretch of the flavor text in the PHB except by very loose interpretation of the terminology used. Otherwise, I doubt the sorcerer is going anywhere.
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-18-05, 07:37 PM	Actually, MP is one of the better ideas I've seen. The best way to do it would be to make the MP spent on a spell be the caster level, with a minimum equal to the minimum caster level a Wizard would have to be to cast the spell and a maximum equal to the Sorceror's level. Sorcerors would get an MP progression equal to the Psion's. Sorcerors would also get a number of free cantrips per day equal to the their Charisma modifier, cast at maximum caster level. How's that sound?
GFC_Seracule 08-18-05, 09:16 PM	How about this? *Give them eschew materiels at level one. *Give them a choice of one spell of one level lower then highest as a spell-like ability once per day or a bonus matemagic or draconic heritage feat at the levels a wizard gets bonus feats. They could also use the slot to change the uses to 3 times per day. *Add use magic device to their class skills list. And possibly change to the spells per day and spells known so that they get new spell levels at the same levels that wizard does.
Pendragon2u 08-18-05, 09:56 PM	Our campaign has always given the sorc eshew materials as a first level feat. It has always seemed ridiculous that a class that has magic spring up naturally must search out components for spells they have never even been told about. We have also added in alot of the charisma based skills as class skills, as the need for studying spellcraft is not a requirement of this class, and the text of the phb implies that the sorc should have some of these skills. On top of that, we give them skill points equal to 2+charisma modifier. Those few changes seem to balance the class out rather well. -Pendragon2u
Blaque 08-18-05, 10:07 PM	I think that Int + 4 is fine personally, as the Int + 2 seems like a hold-over copy and paste form the Wizard, which gets penalized due to its Int being expected to be high. I would also add Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive to their skill list. Since it seems weird that only one skill on their list in canon is based on their primary mental Ability. Feats would be neat, but I'm not sure as to them being the Wizard feets. I can see them having some more general-purpose and into the self-trained thing. Or even just Sudden feats. Eschew materials is fine though. It helps more with the idea of "It comes form ME" then the current system tries to do. Those are a couple things I'd do personally. I might also give then a d6, but that's just me:) Stuff.
ninjarabbit 08-18-05, 10:28 PM	The battle sorcerer from Unearthed Arcana is the best sorcerer fix methinks.
Edymnion 08-18-05, 11:01 PM	The battle sorcerer from Unearthed Arcana is the best sorcerer fix methinks.Except for, you know, those of us out there that want our sorcerer to be something other than a mobile artillery platform.
Greymallkin 08-19-05, 02:44 AM	I tend to agree that the sorcerer needs some help. I would also agree that the casting system traditionally used in D&D is, well, far from stellar. The difference is that I can (and trying to) do something about the sorcerer, the casting systems is something I don't feel like messing with any time soon. My changes to the sorcerer include: Increasing hit die to a d6 - they are not wizards, they are a tad hartier than the wizard. Gave eschew materials at first level - this just makes sense. Sorcerers now gain extra spells per level for a high charisma rather than an extra spells per day - this change reflects the value of a high charisma and is more in line with the end result for giving wizards extra spells per day. Also, I am working on some class features that could act as a built in version of some metamagic feats, such as silent spell, still spell, extend spell... (this has also lead me to do som reworking of the metamagic feats... but that is another post in a different forum), but I'm not done with that yet. I have also taken a few things from the sorcerer, namely the familar (I tend to see this a wizard thing, not a sorcerer thing) and the ability to specialize in a school of magic like wizards do (I see this a too much of a concious choice for a random happening). A last word on spell casting systems, I think a spell point based casting system would be a good idea, as would borrowing from the psion (it had occured to me that the psion was little more than a spell point version of the sorcerer anyway), the only complication for me is balancing the thing. Sorry if rambled abit.
Roxlimn 08-19-05, 03:35 AM	Eschew Materials at level 1 - Yes, but only for Sorcerer Spells. It's largely a flavor addition, but it's needed, IMO. Bonus feats - Heck, no! I tried that once and lived to be pounded on by spells that were metamagicked every which way to Tuesday. The extra capability Sorcerers get from Metamagic is enough. If you like, you can grant than a level progression that grants them a bonus feat at approximately the levels Wizards acquire theirs, but you should limit it to Metamagic or Extra Spell only, and reduce their second to the highest Spells Known progression by one for that level. For example, a Sorcerer gets an extra 2nd level Spells Known at level 6. You can remove this progression, and add in Bonus Feat, which the Sorcerer can use to take Extra Spell or Metamagic. If you like, you can also adopt the Spell Secret idea from the Wu Jen. Cha based Psion? I haven't tried it, but my instinct tells me no. More SP? Not really necessary. More Class Skills? Yes. More SP? No. Sorcerers who want their skills fix can invest in Int, just like everybody else.
Azri 08-19-05, 07:58 AM	It never was a 'magic in the blood' class to any degree of the warlock by any stretch of the flavor text in the PHB except by very loose interpretation of the terminology used. Otherwise, I doubt the sorcerer is going anywhere. The flavor text in the PHB describes the blood of dragons flowing through the veins of sorcerers, and that sorcs have raw power that they direct at will. Those ideas have led to house rules of bloodlines and eschew materials; the class's mechanics doesn't really support at least one interpretation of the class's concept. It's like a "skilled hunter" class not having Spot or Listen. If a sorc isn't a magic-in-the-blood caster, then he's just a Cha-based wizard with a variant spellcasting system, worthy of just a paragraph in UA. I think the class needs to bring something unique to the table. The sorc needs a custom spell list (why would any sorc pick "guards and wards" or "clone?") and some class features that give it flavor and a reason to progress to level 20, such as the aforementioned bloodlines. While some of the sorc variants I've seen are interesting, there's nothing compelling about giving a sorc eschew materials, 4 skill points, d6 hit points, charisma-based skills, or whatnot. The sorc isn't a skill-using class. The sorc isn't a particularly hardy class or a front-liner. The sorc isn't the party face. When the XPH's magic system (or a Warlock-based system) rides in and displaces the Vancian system, we'll see little need for sorcerers. For example, if you look at the alternate magic systems presented in UA, you'll see that sorcerers become afterthoughts. "Give sorcs an extra 2 mana points over this variant spontaneous wizard." Whee.
Shadowfax7 08-19-05, 01:03 PM	the Int + 2 seems like a hold-over copy and paste form the Wizard, which gets penalized due to its Int being expected to be high. Then why do Clerics, Fighters and Paladins have 2+Int skill points/level ?? I don't think it was a copy and paste error . . . more likely the designers believed the Sorcerer doesn't need more skill points and/or more class skills to fill its niche.
Blaque 08-19-05, 01:17 PM	Then why do Clerics, Fighters and Paladins have 2+Int skill points/level ?? I don't think it was a copy and paste error . . . more likely the designers believed the Sorcerer doesn't need more skill points and/or more class skills to fill its niche. You have a good point. I think the reason is they didn't expect Fighters to do much beyond fight, and so gimped their list. Paladins a simaller extension. And they felt Clerics got enough utility elsewhere. Sorcerers, however, are outright said to fill the "face" rolll of a party very often though. And this si counter-acted as ever being possible with the lack of skills based on their primary trait, or how they don't have the skills to do it anyhow. But if one looks a thte traditional Ass-Kicker, Blaster, healer, Sneaker builds, the Sneaker ends up to be the only one with anything above Int + 2, so no clue really. But note the blaster normally will match the Rogue some. Sorcerers in such a situation odn't, as they don't have the ability to put as much into Int as Wizards do, but instead make Cha a necessary stat, despite it only helping with their casting. Though, I am with the above mentions that htey need something to allow them to feel any inclination to stay on Sorcerer. As is, there's no reason not to find a full-progression PrC abouts, since after 1st Lvl, there's nothing but more spells.. Stuff.
Keenath 08-19-05, 01:18 PM	In terms of game balance, the worst thing about a sorcerer is that you lose nothing for turning to a PRC as soon as possible. A full-caster PRC, and you never even lose a single level of casting ability! Oh, sorry -- your familiar doesn't advance. Whee. Wizards themselves have very little loss for going to a PRC; they lose out on two feats. But at least that's something. The other problem with the Sorc is that he gets Simple weapons, as if he supposed to be able to use them, but he hasn't got the necessary HP to back it up. I suspect a good modification for the sorcerer would go this way: Eschew Materials at 1st level Summon Familiar at 3rd level (not 1st!) Hit die d6 instead of d4 Possibly Improved Familiar at 7th; I need to think about this... There should probably be one more benefit at 13th level, and one at 17th, but I can't imagine what they should be. The HP would automatically cause you to think twice about a PRC; that's a lot of HP you're losing out on by going into a prestige class. The 13th level ability should be about like a good feat, probably, but not a feat... unique benefits would fit best, in my opinion. The benefit at 17th level should be relatively powerful, I should think; odd levels are pretty dead for a Sorc, and 17 is particularly painful -- the wizard has already gotten his 9th level spells, and the sorc is just left out, waiting. Any ideas? Either something like the Rogue's special ability list, but with a magical twist, or a bloodline-style thing (similar to a Ranger's combat style) where you select early in the career and get 3 or 4 abilities out of it. Possibly, Improved Familiar could be one of the "bloodline" choices for 7th level, but not the only one. Fey, p'raps, could provide Improved Familiar at 7, SR at 13, and something nice at 17. Edit: Come to think of it, if you did this free bloodline thing, you'd have to pull off the 6-sided hit die.
Puca 08-19-05, 01:21 PM	Would it be fair to give the Sorc 4+int for skills? No. When you "help" one class by giving it more skill points is effectivly devalue other classes that get good skill points. Would it be fair to give Sorcs Eschew Materials for free at first level? I dont really see a problem with it. Even better is to trade it for the pet. Would it be fair to give sorcs bonus feats at the same levels psions and wizards get them? Obviously the designers of said classes didnt feel that way. To argue this though you have to argue that the sorcerer is so far behind the wizard that all those bonus feats are necessary to make up for it. Even though I do think the wizard is a bit better, if less fun, that is not a settled question. And I still dont think that they are weak enough to merit this. When you look at how well he can use the metamagic feats he gets now, giving him four more is a bit scary. Finally, a friend suggested that a sorc be a Cha based psion with the sorc spell list. Think that's fair? I dont have any experience with psionics, but from what little I know, this will be insane. Sorc/wizard spells do more damage as thier caster levels go up. Psions have to spend more power points to achieve that. Unless you want to rewrite all the spells for a points version, youre going to have an uber caster. Not good.
Shadowfax7 08-19-05, 01:36 PM	I actually don't have anything against giving Sorcerers a d6 HD, 4+Int skill points/level and Eschew Materials @ 1st level, but the problem created is that this makes them more frontloaded and more of a reason to PrC. Obviously not solving the major problem, even though giving the class more flavor for sure.
Keenath 08-19-05, 01:48 PM	I actually don't have anything against giving Sorcerers a d6 HD, 4+Int skill points/level and Eschew Materials @ 1st level, but the problem created is that this makes them more frontloaded and more of a reason to PrC. Obviously not solving the major problem, even though giving the class more flavor for sure. I don't know if that's really a reason to PRC... d6 HD and 4+int skill points would mean if you want to keep your skills maxed, you'd have to stay out of all those 2+int PRCs! On the OTHER hand, a sorc only needs Spellcraft if he's hoping to counterspell, and Knowledge:Arcana doesn't seem real relevant. Concentration is about all they really need to max out (the other two can have less than maximum ranks and still make a happy sorcerer). If he wants some Bluff skill or something, it's not hard to get it if he's got even a moderately good INT score.
TheDarkestOfAngels 08-19-05, 02:58 PM	The flavor text in the PHB describes the blood of dragons flowing through the veins of sorcerers, No, it says that sorcerers typically claim this - especially kobolds. Not that this is fact. and that sorcs have raw power that they direct at will. They do have raw power that they direct at will. It's called "spontaneous spellcasting." Sorcerers cast spells through innate power rather than careful training and study. Their magic is intuitive rather than logical. What this means is that they learn their spells through their inborn power rather than only learning it through books. They intuitively know how to cast these spells. Sorcerers intuitively learn to cast spells -- not spell-like abilities or spells approximating spell-like abilities through things like eschew components. The mechanics of the class support this but not the other because the other is not true. Those ideas have led to house rules of bloodlines and eschew materials; the class's mechanics doesn't really support at least one interpretation of the class's concept. It's like a "skilled hunter" class not having Spot or Listen. Then they support something else. Simple as that. But it appears as though people are willing to take the simplest solution that requires a fix rather than the one that works perfectly and is easily evident upon closer examination of the PHB text and anything the authors have said in reference to all this. If it were like you described, then it would be a warlock with dragon features rather than demon features. If a sorc isn't a magic-in-the-blood caster, then he's just a Cha-based wizard with a variant spellcasting system, worthy of just a paragraph in UA. If this were true, then all of the classes are just varients from the three base "warrior" "expert" and "spellcaster" classes and none of them beyond those three are truely unique. The only thing similar between the sorcerer and the wizard are their common spell lists and familiars. I think the class needs to bring something unique to the table. The sorc needs a custom spell list (why would any sorc pick "guards and wards" or "clone?") and some class features that give it flavor and a reason to progress to level 20, such as the aforementioned bloodlines. Ugh. No custom spell list. It would only make the sorcerer suck. Much of what makes the sorcerer powerful is the fact that it can choose from the wizard/sorcerer spell list. While some of the sorc variants I've seen are interesting, there's nothing compelling about giving a sorc eschew materials, 4 skill points, d6 hit points, charisma-based skills, or whatnot. The sorc isn't a skill-using class. The sorc isn't a particularly hardy class or a front-liner. The sorc isn't the party face. It also isn't casting arcane spells more easily (through eschew) either because the sorcerer has absolutely no reason that it should somehow "forget" certain components of spells without the additional training (read: actually taking the feat.) When the XPH's magic system (or a Warlock-based system) rides in and displaces the Vancian system, we'll see little need for sorcerers. For example, if you look at the alternate magic systems presented in UA, you'll see that sorcerers become afterthoughts. "Give sorcs an extra 2 mana points over this variant spontaneous wizard." Whee. OH please. That'll never happen.
TheDarkestOfAngels 08-19-05, 02:59 PM	The flavor text in the PHB describes the blood of dragons flowing through the veins of sorcerers, No, it says that sorcerers typically claim this - especially kobolds. Not that this is fact. and that sorcs have raw power that they direct at will. They do have raw power that they direct at will. It's called "spontaneous spellcasting." Sorcerers cast spells through innate power rather than careful training and study. Their magic is intuitive rather than logical. What this means is that they learn their spells through their inborn power rather than only learning it through books. They intuitively know how to cast these spells. Sorcerers intuitively learn to cast spells -- not spell-like abilities or spells approximating spell-like abilities through things like eschew components. The mechanics of the class support this but not the other because the other is not true. Those ideas have led to house rules of bloodlines and eschew materials; the class's mechanics doesn't really support at least one interpretation of the class's concept. It's like a "skilled hunter" class not having Spot or Listen. Then they support something else. Simple as that. But it appears as though people are willing to take the simplest solution that requires a fix rather than the one that works perfectly and is easily evident upon closer examination of the PHB text and anything the authors have said in reference to all this. If it were like you described, then it would be a warlock with dragon features rather than demon features. If a sorc isn't a magic-in-the-blood caster, then he's just a Cha-based wizard with a variant spellcasting system, worthy of just a paragraph in UA. If this were true, then all of the classes are just varients from the three base "warrior" "expert" and "spellcaster" classes and none of them beyond those three are truely unique. The only thing similar between the sorcerer and the wizard are their common spell lists and familiars. I think the class needs to bring something unique to the table. The sorc needs a custom spell list (why would any sorc pick "guards and wards" or "clone?") and some class features that give it flavor and a reason to progress to level 20, such as the aforementioned bloodlines. Ugh. No custom spell list. It would only make the sorcerer suck. Much of what makes the sorcerer powerful is the fact that it can choose from the wizard/sorcerer spell list. While some of the sorc variants I've seen are interesting, there's nothing compelling about giving a sorc eschew materials, 4 skill points, d6 hit points, charisma-based skills, or whatnot. The sorc isn't a skill-using class. The sorc isn't a particularly hardy class or a front-liner. The sorc isn't the party face. It also isn't casting arcane spells more easily (through eschew) either because the sorcerer has absolutely no reason that it should somehow "forget" certain components of spells without the additional training (read: actually taking the feat.) When the XPH's magic system (or a Warlock-based system) rides in and displaces the Vancian system, we'll see little need for sorcerers. For example, if you look at the alternate magic systems presented in UA, you'll see that sorcerers become afterthoughts. "Give sorcs an extra 2 mana points over this variant spontaneous wizard." Whee. OH please. That'll never happen. Not with any mote of luck, anyway, will the current system be replaced, since it's worked just fine.