Balancing casters. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Balancing casters. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ezell Pike
10-06-06, 09:30 PM For the most part low level casters do not dominate the game the way high levlel ones do. This is largely due to their access to higher level spells.

What I am suggesting is that they be nerfed. Differently than has been considered before. By reducing their daily allotment of higher level spells in favor of a greatly expanded allotment of lower level spells. An example of the progression below.

level
1st 4 3
2nd 5 4
3rd 6 5 3
4th 7 6 4
5th 8 7 5 3
6th 9 8 6 4
7th 10 9 7 5 3
8th 11 10 8 6 4
9th 12 11 9 7 5 1
10th 13 12 10 8 6 1
11th 13 13 11 9 7 1 1
12th 13 13 12 10 8 1 1
13th 13 13 13 11 9 1 1 1
14th 13 13 13 12 10 1 1 1
15th 13 13 13 13 11 1 1 1 1
16th 13 13 13 13 12 1 1 1 1
17th 13 13 13 13 13 2 1 1 1 1
18th 13 13 13 13 13 2 2 1 1 1
19th 13 13 13 13 13 3 2 1 1 1
20th 13 13 13 13 13 3 3 1 1 1

By this method I believe the round to round efficiency and versatility will expand many times over. While limiting the number of encounters that are nullified by over powered spells. I happen to like sorcerers but they would just be Flavored wizards if this were used.
Seerow
10-06-06, 09:33 PM Be careful about this with noncore material. In particular that feat that gives you two lower level spells for one higher level spell...
Ezell Pike
10-06-06, 10:06 PM Be careful about this with noncore material. In particular that feat that gives you two lower level spells for one higher level spell...

I'm not familiar with that one in particular. How can it have an impact?

I was more inclined to believe that it would hamper the use of metamagic, or would it not? ( or perhaps modified) Not sudden metamagic mind you. I belive that the damage caps for spells would also have to be re-evaluated otherwize the melee fighters would probably outsrtip the casters.

All in all spells that do damage even high level ones seem to have a lower capacity for abuse.
OneWinged4ngel
10-07-06, 01:29 AM All in all spells that do damage even high level ones seem to have a lower capacity for abuse.

Yeah... it's the crazy utility spells and save or dies that are doing the hurting. From Polymorph to Wall of Force to Celerity to Teleport to Scry (to Teleport AND Scry *shudder*). General damage spells generally aren't a problem, outside of metamagic abuse (this is usually only a problem with the artificer)
Lina_Inverse
10-07-06, 01:29 AM For the most part low level casters do not dominate the game the way high levlel ones do. This is largely due to their access to higher level spells.

What I am suggesting is that they be nerfed. Differently than has been considered before. By reducing their daily allotment of higher level spells in favor of a greatly expanded allotment of lower level spells. An example of the progression below.

level
1st 4 3
2nd 5 4
3rd 6 5 3
4th 7 6 4
5th 8 7 5 3
6th 9 8 6 4
7th 10 9 7 5 3
8th 11 10 8 6 4
9th 12 11 9 7 5 1
10th 13 12 10 8 6 1
11th 13 13 11 9 7 1 1
12th 13 13 12 10 8 1 1
13th 13 13 13 11 9 1 1 1
14th 13 13 13 12 10 1 1 1
15th 13 13 13 13 11 1 1 1 1
16th 13 13 13 13 12 1 1 1 1
17th 13 13 13 13 13 2 1 1 1 1
18th 13 13 13 13 13 2 2 1 1 1
19th 13 13 13 13 13 3 2 1 1 1
20th 13 13 13 13 13 3 3 1 1 1

By this method I believe the round to round efficiency and versatility will expand many times over. While limiting the number of encounters that are nullified by over powered spells. I happen to like sorcerers but they would just be Flavored wizards if this were used.

Youve VASTLY overnerfed wizards by doing this. Low level spells have no value in high level play as they consume actions the most valueable resourse in the game, and have effectively no impact. A rogue will consistantly offer a larger impact upon the game, and doesnt have to put up with memorizeing 13*5+3*2 useless spells.

Even readjusting the casters damage spells wont help, as the save DCs will be far too low, greatly nerfing there damage even if they can do 20d6 for a fireball.

You can fix this, but it will take some work. Readujust save DCs to reflect caster level, and readjust damage spells to become GASP more damageing and its somewhat salvagable.

But for the love of god, dont make me prep 13*5+3*2+1*3 spells.
HamHam
10-07-06, 01:30 AM I'm sure there's something broken you can do with 13 spells per day per level 4 and under.
OneWinged4ngel
10-07-06, 01:31 AM Youve VASTLY overnerfed wizards by doing this. Low level spells have no value in high level play as they consume actions the most valueable resourse in the game, and have effectively no impact. A rogue will consistantly offer a larger impact upon the game, and doesnt have to put up with memorizeing 13*5+3*2 useless spells.

Not to mention that you can just use things like, say, scrolls. And that the rogues can use those scrolls too.
Ezell Pike
10-07-06, 09:16 AM Yes I'm sure there are broken things that can be done with 13spells 4th level and below. They are more manageable than. Timestop, Shapechange, Belayed blast FB, and so on during one round. I doubt that these changes would result in over nerfing a class. You still have access to the spells just fewer of them. The rogue thing is something to consider though as is the issue of scrolls.
starfire311
10-07-06, 10:51 AM interesting fix, it is not awful, but I would be tempted to change save DCs in some manor, perhaps 10+1/2 caster level+ability mod

or maybe 5+spell level+1/2 caster level+ability mod... this would be an interestinger progression, and make 9th level spells nearly unsavable, but they would only get 1 maybe 2 per day.
Lina_Inverse
10-07-06, 01:50 PM I'm sure there's something broken you can do with 13 spells per day per level 4 and under.

There isnt actully. Look over the phb list of 4th level spells. Now find one which has an impact on a 20th level encounter. None of them will have an effective impact on an encounter outside of a few rare situtations. The number of spells you can cast is moot if those spells dont affect the encounter at all, theres 4 encounters per day, and encounters last a maxium of 4 rounds.

I only ever need 16 spells per day, and if those spells arent level7+ there a waste of my action basically. 4th level spells are just worse. If a charecter cannot properly impact an encounter, then there is no reason to bring him in the caimpaign. He is worthless.

This wizard is basically a warlock with a handful of higher level spells. Warlocks as weve all learned, suck.

Oh wait, there IS something broken you can do with 13 4th level spells and under. They are preping a bajillion cure spells as a cleric/druid, and going into every encounter without threat of running out of cures. Of course, the wizards still useless, and so is the cleric compared to the druid here and the druid must go exclusively into his role as god of melee combat ignoreing spellcasting.

Wonderful, the only viable caster is a melee centric druid who uses magic for cure spells primarily!
theotherdraxen
10-07-06, 02:08 PM Personally, I'd just cut the spell levels in half. I heard there was a variant somewhere that had spell levels up to level 20, but still stuck to the normal spell list (Druids got Cure as a 2nd level spell, and not as a 1st, etc.). Just use that system, but keep the spell progression the same. In the end, spells like Divine Power (a.k.a. the cleric's out-tank the tank spell) wouldn't be available until about the time that Barbarians get their better rages.
HamHam
10-07-06, 02:21 PM There isnt actully. Look over the phb list of 4th level spells. Now find one which has an impact on a 20th level encounter.

Otiluke's Resilient Sphere removes one opponent from the fight.
Greater Invisibilty
Enervation (d4 negative levels a round for 13 rounds is pretty damn mean)
Polymorph
Scrying

You're main problem is going to be boosting the save DCs of the spells, but some of those (like Polymorph and Enervation) don't even allow saves.
Eela6
10-07-06, 02:26 PM There isnt actully. Look over the phb list of 4th level spells. Now find one which has an impact on a 20th level encounter.

Let's take a look.

Key: Bold - Just Plain Amazing.
Italics - Really good, but has a cost of some sort.
Underline - Battle-Ending.

Solid Fog.
Dimensional Anchor.
Charm Monster.
Greater Invisibility.
Polymorph.
Animate Dead.
Bestow Curse
Enervation.

All of these are Sorcerer/Wizard Fourth level spells that I use all the time at high levels.

Now, let's look at Third Level spells.
Greater Magic Weapon.
Haste.
Slow.
Protection from Energy [You have so many slots you can keep it on all the time.]
Suggestion.
Magic Circle against (X).
Stinking Cloud

I think the disparity is a bit odd - I think you should be allowing decent /day/ use of fifth level spells, at least, but Third and Fourth level spells happen to be some of the best in the game.

Slow, for instance, is an encounter-ender. Polymorph is broken to all heck. Stinking Cloud is possibly the best 'shutdown' spell in the game - Quickened Web + Stinking Cloud has ended me dozens of battles.

Solid Fog is absolutely fantastic as well, and doesn't even allow a save. Enervation is another no-save spell, and it's an absolute killer against anything.

The only problem here is that Wizards can't make effective inroads against enemies with "Save or X" spells, so they have to rely on standbys like Enervation + Solid fog, and mostly use buffs - except for when they use their high-level slots to end encounters.

I'm pretty much fine with that.

_

Here's the highlights of the Cleric spell list I found at the level 3/4 range.
Animate Dead.
Bestow Curse.
Magic Vestment.
Wind Wall.
Poison*
Magic Circle against (X).
Death Ward.
Greater Magic Weapon.
Restoration.
Spell Immunity.
Divine Power
Lesser Planar Ally

*Poison is incredible here due to the odd way it calculates it's saving throw DC. It's dependent on your caster level rather than the spell level.
Ezell Pike
10-07-06, 05:28 PM Lina_Inverse,
You only need 16 spells per day. Combats 4 rounds each would mean that you could bring to bear in a regular game a 9th, an 8th and a 7th level spell in every encounter. These are spells that can and often do end encounters very powerful encounters. Having tons of lower level spells allow you to buff/debuff, attack, and facilitate(sp) the party's ability to overcome obstacles. You still have the ability to cast high level spells and have a huge impact on encounters at all levels of play round after round. Without marginalizing the impact of the non-casters.

Scrolls have their own drawbacks IE they cost money.

Now for a rogue to cast a 9th level spell froma scroll is a DC37 to be able to reliably do this you need 23 ranks and an 18charisma or you will have had to use one of your precious feats to improve your chances. A mishap with a 9th level spell would be catastrophic to say the least.
Ezell Pike
10-07-06, 05:30 PM I am actually suprised and grateful at the positive responses I have seen. As well as the fair and honest input from other posters.:)
Neutronium_Dragon
10-07-06, 06:09 PM I'm sorry, but I wouldn't bother to play a caster under a system like this. I don't work a wizard up to high level just to be a longer-lasting Magic Missile Boat, which is more or less what they're reduced to by this.
starfire311
10-08-06, 01:00 PM This wizard is basically a warlock with a handful of higher level spells. Warlocks as weve all learned, suck.

Actually warlocks really dont suck, they are balanced quite well, the problem is that most pure casters are overpowered IMO.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ezell Pike 10-06-06, 09:30 PM	For the most part low level casters do not dominate the game the way high levlel ones do. This is largely due to their access to higher level spells. What I am suggesting is that they be nerfed. Differently than has been considered before. By reducing their daily allotment of higher level spells in favor of a greatly expanded allotment of lower level spells. An example of the progression below. level 1st 4 3 2nd 5 4 3rd 6 5 3 4th 7 6 4 5th 8 7 5 3 6th 9 8 6 4 7th 10 9 7 5 3 8th 11 10 8 6 4 9th 12 11 9 7 5 1 10th 13 12 10 8 6 1 11th 13 13 11 9 7 1 1 12th 13 13 12 10 8 1 1 13th 13 13 13 11 9 1 1 1 14th 13 13 13 12 10 1 1 1 15th 13 13 13 13 11 1 1 1 1 16th 13 13 13 13 12 1 1 1 1 17th 13 13 13 13 13 2 1 1 1 1 18th 13 13 13 13 13 2 2 1 1 1 19th 13 13 13 13 13 3 2 1 1 1 20th 13 13 13 13 13 3 3 1 1 1 By this method I believe the round to round efficiency and versatility will expand many times over. While limiting the number of encounters that are nullified by over powered spells. I happen to like sorcerers but they would just be Flavored wizards if this were used.
Seerow 10-06-06, 09:33 PM	Be careful about this with noncore material. In particular that feat that gives you two lower level spells for one higher level spell...
Ezell Pike 10-06-06, 10:06 PM	Be careful about this with noncore material. In particular that feat that gives you two lower level spells for one higher level spell... I'm not familiar with that one in particular. How can it have an impact? I was more inclined to believe that it would hamper the use of metamagic, or would it not? ( or perhaps modified) Not sudden metamagic mind you. I belive that the damage caps for spells would also have to be re-evaluated otherwize the melee fighters would probably outsrtip the casters. All in all spells that do damage even high level ones seem to have a lower capacity for abuse.
OneWinged4ngel 10-07-06, 01:29 AM	All in all spells that do damage even high level ones seem to have a lower capacity for abuse. Yeah... it's the crazy utility spells and save or dies that are doing the hurting. From Polymorph to Wall of Force to Celerity to Teleport to Scry (to Teleport AND Scry shudder). General damage spells generally aren't a problem, outside of metamagic abuse (this is usually only a problem with the artificer)
Lina_Inverse 10-07-06, 01:29 AM	For the most part low level casters do not dominate the game the way high levlel ones do. This is largely due to their access to higher level spells. What I am suggesting is that they be nerfed. Differently than has been considered before. By reducing their daily allotment of higher level spells in favor of a greatly expanded allotment of lower level spells. An example of the progression below. level 1st 4 3 2nd 5 4 3rd 6 5 3 4th 7 6 4 5th 8 7 5 3 6th 9 8 6 4 7th 10 9 7 5 3 8th 11 10 8 6 4 9th 12 11 9 7 5 1 10th 13 12 10 8 6 1 11th 13 13 11 9 7 1 1 12th 13 13 12 10 8 1 1 13th 13 13 13 11 9 1 1 1 14th 13 13 13 12 10 1 1 1 15th 13 13 13 13 11 1 1 1 1 16th 13 13 13 13 12 1 1 1 1 17th 13 13 13 13 13 2 1 1 1 1 18th 13 13 13 13 13 2 2 1 1 1 19th 13 13 13 13 13 3 2 1 1 1 20th 13 13 13 13 13 3 3 1 1 1 By this method I believe the round to round efficiency and versatility will expand many times over. While limiting the number of encounters that are nullified by over powered spells. I happen to like sorcerers but they would just be Flavored wizards if this were used. Youve VASTLY overnerfed wizards by doing this. Low level spells have no value in high level play as they consume actions the most valueable resourse in the game, and have effectively no impact. A rogue will consistantly offer a larger impact upon the game, and doesnt have to put up with memorizeing 135+32 useless spells. Even readjusting the casters damage spells wont help, as the save DCs will be far too low, greatly nerfing there damage even if they can do 20d6 for a fireball. You can fix this, but it will take some work. Readujust save DCs to reflect caster level, and readjust damage spells to become GASP more damageing and its somewhat salvagable. But for the love of god, dont make me prep 135+32+1*3 spells.
HamHam 10-07-06, 01:30 AM	I'm sure there's something broken you can do with 13 spells per day per level 4 and under.
OneWinged4ngel 10-07-06, 01:31 AM	Youve VASTLY overnerfed wizards by doing this. Low level spells have no value in high level play as they consume actions the most valueable resourse in the game, and have effectively no impact. A rogue will consistantly offer a larger impact upon the game, and doesnt have to put up with memorizeing 135+32 useless spells. Not to mention that you can just use things like, say, scrolls. And that the rogues can use those scrolls too.
Ezell Pike 10-07-06, 09:16 AM	Yes I'm sure there are broken things that can be done with 13spells 4th level and below. They are more manageable than. Timestop, Shapechange, Belayed blast FB, and so on during one round. I doubt that these changes would result in over nerfing a class. You still have access to the spells just fewer of them. The rogue thing is something to consider though as is the issue of scrolls.
starfire311 10-07-06, 10:51 AM	interesting fix, it is not awful, but I would be tempted to change save DCs in some manor, perhaps 10+1/2 caster level+ability mod or maybe 5+spell level+1/2 caster level+ability mod... this would be an interestinger progression, and make 9th level spells nearly unsavable, but they would only get 1 maybe 2 per day.
Lina_Inverse 10-07-06, 01:50 PM	I'm sure there's something broken you can do with 13 spells per day per level 4 and under. There isnt actully. Look over the phb list of 4th level spells. Now find one which has an impact on a 20th level encounter. None of them will have an effective impact on an encounter outside of a few rare situtations. The number of spells you can cast is moot if those spells dont affect the encounter at all, theres 4 encounters per day, and encounters last a maxium of 4 rounds. I only ever need 16 spells per day, and if those spells arent level7+ there a waste of my action basically. 4th level spells are just worse. If a charecter cannot properly impact an encounter, then there is no reason to bring him in the caimpaign. He is worthless. This wizard is basically a warlock with a handful of higher level spells. Warlocks as weve all learned, suck. Oh wait, there IS something broken you can do with 13 4th level spells and under. They are preping a bajillion cure spells as a cleric/druid, and going into every encounter without threat of running out of cures. Of course, the wizards still useless, and so is the cleric compared to the druid here and the druid must go exclusively into his role as god of melee combat ignoreing spellcasting. Wonderful, the only viable caster is a melee centric druid who uses magic for cure spells primarily!
theotherdraxen 10-07-06, 02:08 PM	Personally, I'd just cut the spell levels in half. I heard there was a variant somewhere that had spell levels up to level 20, but still stuck to the normal spell list (Druids got Cure as a 2nd level spell, and not as a 1st, etc.). Just use that system, but keep the spell progression the same. In the end, spells like Divine Power (a.k.a. the cleric's out-tank the tank spell) wouldn't be available until about the time that Barbarians get their better rages.
HamHam 10-07-06, 02:21 PM	There isnt actully. Look over the phb list of 4th level spells. Now find one which has an impact on a 20th level encounter. Otiluke's Resilient Sphere removes one opponent from the fight. Greater Invisibilty Enervation (d4 negative levels a round for 13 rounds is pretty damn mean) Polymorph Scrying You're main problem is going to be boosting the save DCs of the spells, but some of those (like Polymorph and Enervation) don't even allow saves.
Eela6 10-07-06, 02:26 PM	There isnt actully. Look over the phb list of 4th level spells. Now find one which has an impact on a 20th level encounter. Let's take a look. Key: Bold - Just Plain Amazing. Italics - Really good, but has a cost of some sort. Underline - Battle-Ending. Solid Fog. Dimensional Anchor. Charm Monster. Greater Invisibility. Polymorph. Animate Dead. Bestow Curse Enervation. All of these are Sorcerer/Wizard Fourth level spells that I use all the time at high levels. Now, let's look at Third Level spells. Greater Magic Weapon. Haste. Slow. Protection from Energy [You have so many slots you can keep it on all the time.] Suggestion. Magic Circle against (X). Stinking Cloud I think the disparity is a bit odd - I think you should be allowing decent /day/ use of fifth level spells, at least, but Third and Fourth level spells happen to be some of the best in the game. Slow, for instance, is an encounter-ender. Polymorph is broken to all heck. Stinking Cloud is possibly the best 'shutdown' spell in the game - Quickened Web + Stinking Cloud has ended me dozens of battles. Solid Fog is absolutely fantastic as well, and doesn't even allow a save. Enervation is another no-save spell, and it's an absolute killer against anything. The only problem here is that Wizards can't make effective inroads against enemies with "Save or X" spells, so they have to rely on standbys like Enervation + Solid fog, and mostly use buffs - except for when they use their high-level slots to end encounters. I'm pretty much fine with that. _ Here's the highlights of the Cleric spell list I found at the level 3/4 range. Animate Dead. Bestow Curse. Magic Vestment. Wind Wall. Poison* Magic Circle against (X). Death Ward. Greater Magic Weapon. Restoration. Spell Immunity. Divine Power Lesser Planar Ally *Poison is incredible here due to the odd way it calculates it's saving throw DC. It's dependent on your caster level rather than the spell level.
Ezell Pike 10-07-06, 05:28 PM	Lina_Inverse, You only need 16 spells per day. Combats 4 rounds each would mean that you could bring to bear in a regular game a 9th, an 8th and a 7th level spell in every encounter. These are spells that can and often do end encounters very powerful encounters. Having tons of lower level spells allow you to buff/debuff, attack, and facilitate(sp) the party's ability to overcome obstacles. You still have the ability to cast high level spells and have a huge impact on encounters at all levels of play round after round. Without marginalizing the impact of the non-casters. Scrolls have their own drawbacks IE they cost money. Now for a rogue to cast a 9th level spell froma scroll is a DC37 to be able to reliably do this you need 23 ranks and an 18charisma or you will have had to use one of your precious feats to improve your chances. A mishap with a 9th level spell would be catastrophic to say the least.
Ezell Pike 10-07-06, 05:30 PM	I am actually suprised and grateful at the positive responses I have seen. As well as the fair and honest input from other posters.:)
Neutronium_Dragon 10-07-06, 06:09 PM	I'm sorry, but I wouldn't bother to play a caster under a system like this. I don't work a wizard up to high level just to be a longer-lasting Magic Missile Boat, which is more or less what they're reduced to by this.
starfire311 10-08-06, 01:00 PM	This wizard is basically a warlock with a handful of higher level spells. Warlocks as weve all learned, suck. Actually warlocks really dont suck, they are balanced quite well, the problem is that most pure casters are overpowered IMO.