Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HamHam 09-09-07, 11:28 AM	EDIT: Updated class list I have a goal of eventually getting all bases classes more or less balanced, however, just focusing on Core first seems like a more realistic first step. Thus, I need to decide which one's are good as is, which one's need fixing, etc. Looking over the list and the fixes I've already found or made: Good as Is: Rogue Wizard Bard Fixed: Rebalanced Paladin (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=761045) Seerow's Combat Style Fighter (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=728493) My Sorcerer Fix Cleric: * Proficient with Light and Medium Armor, and all shields * Sense Motive added to class skills * d6 Hit Die * Bad Fortitude Save * You do not get any domain spells per day. Instead, you can cast spells from your domain spontaniously (but cannot automatically cast cure and inflict spontaniously). You start out with one domain, and gain additional domains at 4th and 8th level. Monk: Full BAB Still Underpowered: Ranger Barbarian Overpowered?: Druid Does anyone know some good fixes people have made for any of the un-balanced classes? Are the Cleric and Druid overpowered to point of needing a nerf? Specific ideas for fixes some classes: Would giving Monks full BAB be enough, or would they need more than that to be balanced?
LoneFlame 09-09-07, 11:48 AM	Ranger isn't underpowered. The only thing that sucks about the Ranger is the variants that one could take in place of spell casting. Those aren't worth the trade in. A friend and I have toyed with the idea of a maneuver sub-out for spells, but I'm not sure when I'll have the time to write it out(the idea's been suggested for Hexblade & Paladin as well). Bard isn't that underpowered. It's a support class. It's not supposed to do anything else. However, I'd say if anything, give them Trapfinding(but not trapsense) like every other rogue-style class(hell, the Beguiler gets it). Also, give them a few just straight damage spells(nothing to fancy. A Scorching Ray, a Fireball, Shocking grasp. Definitely no damaging spells above 4th lv). Then there's some more motivation to play a Bard. Monk's not that bad, but a raise in BAB is truthfully all they really need. I didn't like that Fighter remake too much. I feel my Simple Fighter Remake (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=901790) could get the job done without having to learn too much new stuff. Wild Shape, Animal Companion, and 9th lv spells make the Druid horrifically lethal. Tone down any 2 of those 3 and you've pretty much got a balanced enough class. Cleric isn't that powerful. It's power pretty much comes just from spells. Most of the power from spells actually comes from Domains. With the right selection of Domains, the cleric can essentially fill several roles on its own. For example, with the Trickery Domain, you could cast Time Stop and then buff yourself and/or Gate in some really deadly monsters to slay your enemies. Since there are so many Domains to pick from, you pretty much won't have much trouble finding 2 that suit your needs.
OneWinged4ngel 09-09-07, 12:52 PM	Bard is pretty powerful, actually. Despite a lot of people finding it ineffective at first look, it has a couple of *game breaking* abilities, and moreover with the power of supplements can be built to be extremely effective in various roles. As for Ranger, have you looked at Radical Taoist's variants? On the topic of druids: Shapechange variant from PHB II goes a ways to curb their frightening abilities.
Robert 22 09-09-07, 01:36 PM	HamHam, It looks interesting, but I'm going to commit a heresy and suggest that the core classes don't need balancing. Balance is a concept WotC brought to the game from CCGs. Now in those it is vital (and WotC are very, very good at it) but in a role-playing game it doesn't matter that much. In fact probably one of the best superhero RPG's ever written is Golden Heros 2nd Edition and you never get a balanced group of heros, not even close, but it works brilliantly. Why? Well firstly real superhero teams aren't balanced (think Iron Man and Captain America, both members of the Avengers). Secondly, while every character in the team has different levels of power, everyone is still useful, they still have something they can contribute. And that, usefulness, is what an RPG really needs - no-one wants to be a spare wheel in a co-operative game, everyone wants to be involved. And I think that should be your guiding principle. That every class is fun to play because it is equally involved in things. This problem particularly exists for the four primary combat characters: Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, and even to an extent the Barbarian. They are supposed to be melee experts of various different flavours, but deep down they know they aren't really needed. You see to match up to an appropriate CR they need the buffs the game is assuming they will get from the casters. It is those buffs, not your swordsmans skills that get him through an adventure alive. And worse, while a party of pure casters (Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer, Wizard) is perfectly viable a party of pure combat (Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Barbarian) is not. In other words not everyone is useful. An experimental idea I wrote out but never tried (these days I wargame much more than GM, just due to lack of group) was to try and rectify this sense of certain classes not feeling needed by messing with the spell lists: I assumed that the Rogue is fine (there trap find always makes them useful, though as suggested above I extended that to Monks as well) To help all the combatants feel good about themselves I went through the lists of all the casters and took out all of their buff spells (exempting those they could only use on themself). Now that all caster party looks a little shaky because the Cleric and Druid have no way to match the melee classes. Now that still left the question of Druid-Cleric, Sorcerer-Wizard, and whether Rangers, Paladins, Bards stack up to various multi-class options. So what I did was go through the spell lists and assigned every spell (except the now missing buffs) to one and just one class. So the Sorcerer has his own arcane list, seperate from the Wizards, and the Druids list is completely different to the Clerics. Paladins, Rangers, and Bards got their own short lists which were completely different to the primary casters (Bards for example took most of the Illussions). What doing this meant was that every class could now do something that no other class could do. So even if not directly balanced every class was useful. Okay, over-all it made the party weaker so you need to adjust the CRs. Now I've never had a chance to try this out in practice and I am sure there are problems (CLW is the most obvious possibility) but I think it attacks the problem at its route, which is not that some classes are more powerful (though they are) but the tendency of those classes to make other characters feel superfluous. If you want my notes on the first few levels you are welcome to them. Robert
HamHam 09-09-07, 07:54 PM	Bard is pretty powerful, actually. Despite a lot of people finding it ineffective at first look, it has a couple of *game breaking* abilities, and moreover with the power of supplements can be built to be extremely effective in various roles. What, other than Diplomacy if you can Bluff your DM, is *game breaking* about the Bard as is? Also, I would like it to be internally balanced without requiring supplements, though some ideas from supplements may very well go into it. As for Ranger, have you looked at Radical Taoist's variants? I have now, and I would prefer something that built on what the Ranger can do already rather than taking it in a different direction.
Genetic 09-09-07, 09:27 PM	For druids, just do the shapeshifting variant from PHB2.
Melchizedek 09-09-07, 11:01 PM	I usually prefer to simply tweak specific aspects of CORE, rather than try to rewrite the whole system. That's what supplemental rules are for, Core is meant to be a set of generic mechanics that can be used to represent a wide variety of concepts. My suggestions: Fine As Is: Barbarian Bard - probably fine as is: maybe could use a few more straight up damage spells. Rogue Sorceror - I give them a d6 for hit dice Wizard Proposed Fixes: Fighter - give bonus feat every level instead of every other level, high Reflex save, add Balance & Profession as class skills Monk - simply replace with Battlemonk (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=709808) Cleric - lose the armor and shield proficiency, low Fortitude save. I have never played a Druid or Paladin, and most of my group shies away from those classes, so I can't be of much help there. As for the Ranger, I don't think it's horribly underpowered, but I do think it needs a little something more. Haven't figured out exactly what, so..... Anyway, I hope some of my ramblings prove to be useful :(
OneWinged4ngel 09-10-07, 03:32 AM	What, other than Diplomacy if you can Bluff your DM, is *game breaking* about the Bard as is? Fascinate/Suggestion owns a great wyrm from low level. Save is based on Perform check. People *don't* make it. That, and of course the aforementioned diplomacy, which gets very high without even really trying. When you can make everyone friendly or helpful by level 4, you might start to get worried. Though... that's mostly Diplomacy's fault.
HamHam 09-10-07, 06:25 PM	Fascinate/Suggestion owns a great wyrm from low level. Save is based on Perform check. People *don't* make it. That, and of course the aforementioned diplomacy, which gets very high without even really trying. When you can make everyone friendly or helpful by level 4, you might start to get worried. Though... that's mostly Diplomacy's fault. The saving throw for Fascinate is based on a skill check, but it has stipulations on when it works. The saving throw for Suggestion is 10 + 1/2 bard level + Cha mod, which is at most in the high 20s. Great wyrms have Will save mods of +25ish. And again, Diplomacy is only as useful as the DM will allow (more so than other abilities) because even a helpful NPC is still not required to just do anything the PCs ask.
OneWinged4ngel 09-10-07, 10:46 PM	The saving throw for Fascinate is based on a skill check, but it has stipulations on when it works. The saving throw for Suggestion is 10 + 1/2 bard level + Cha mod, which is at most in the high 20s. Great wyrms have Will save mods of +25ish. And they'll eventually fail it because you get so many tries. And again, Diplomacy is only as useful as the DM will allow (more so than other abilities) because even a helpful NPC is still not required to just do anything the PCs ask. They don't need to do anything the PCs ask to be gamebreaking. Also, if they're FANATICAL (also a very low Diplomacy check, considering the way it scales, from the Epic rules) then they do absolutely everything, including dying for you.
HamHam 09-10-07, 11:13 PM	And they'll eventually fail it because you get so many tries. Well god damn. That's pretty broken. They don't need to do anything the PCs ask to be gamebreaking. Also, if they're FANATICAL (also a very low Diplomacy check, considering the way it scales, from the Epic rules) then they do absolutely everything, including dying for you. Well, I generally use something more like Rich's version (http://www.giantitp.com/Func0010.html) when adjunctiating Diplomacy anyway, so it's a non-issue.
ManTimeForgot 09-10-07, 11:43 PM	The bard isn't a problem in the core system. He is a tangential figure to be sure, but he has enough unique abilities that coupled with his spellcasting lets him occupy a place in the mago-centric design that is D&D. The biggest culprit for violating standards of balance in D&D is the druid. The druid can contribute to scouting with wildshape, healing with spells, and combat due to wildshape, animal companion, and buffing. This makes the druid (especially now that rigid ideological constraints were removed) the optimal choice for any party formation. . Cleric is probably second in this regard to the druid. Clerical domain selection ensures just enough versatility to fill in party vulnerabilities without compromising the cleric's ability to fulfill the party defense/healing role. The fact that the cleric can still contribute non-insignificantly to combat while performing his "niche" role, while perhaps not gamebreaking, is certainly textbook unbalanced. . . This many notches down you get the wizard (non-core beguiler here too, the rogue hate that this creates coupled with true spell casting...) because arcane spellcasting at high levels is purely necessary to be worth a damn, and at low levels combat control spells can "effectively" drop the CRs of encounters by half. Divination at mid to high levels is difficult in the extreme to control and the wizard gets access to wild transmutation abuses by starting at 9th level. . At this point you get the bard and sorcerer (a little tweaking and the sorcerer would be just is game-bending as the wizard). The bard who isn't quite a full caster though has his bardic music and bardic knowledge as his ace in the hole. Bardic knowledge is kinda like having low powered divinations always on, and bardic music used correctly is just as good as the best level appropriate combat control spells the wizard/sorc get access to. . . . . . . Rogue (unless the beguiler is around and then the rogue gets knocked down to fighter level) for trapfinding and use magic device, and paladin and ranger. Ranger I've always hated casting spells, never made any sense to me. An elven fighter who has lived his entire 600 life in the wilderness doesn't gain a lick of spellcasting, but a human ranger can do it in less than a decade. I've always pictured rangers with awesome skills and abilities, but spells elude me. But that being said spellcasting has the advantage of item use, and it doesn't crap out at high levels. Paladins are kinda spellcasters, I lean more towards spell-like/supernatural, but I realize that's really picky, whatever. Paladin spells if you include some non-core choices are ok, core only its kinda limited, but spells is better than nothing since it does mean item use. . . Barbarian, fighter, and monk are all basically in the same boat. They are not strictly necessary no matter what way you shake it. The only way they come even close to being spot-light worthy is if there are lots of null-magic/wild-magic zones or permanent anti-magic field producing items feature VERY prominently into your worlds, and even then NPCs STILL don't amount to much. When the undead horde attacks the village or the demonic horde descends on the city, I will want an equal level cleric over a fighter every day of the week, and a paladin just about every day of the week. Case in point: If you told I had to choose between having a 10th level fighter with me in a battle against a rampaging horde to try and save a town and having a 10th level wizard put up a bunch of magical barriers the previous night, but he would not contribute during the battle because he would be spent, then I will ALWAYS choose the magical assistance. "Re-"balancing the classes is going to require nothing short of reworking the entire class system and changing magic's emphasis in the campaign world. MTF
HamHam 09-11-07, 12:37 AM	Anyone else think Barbarians are as bad as Fighters?
ManTimeForgot 09-11-07, 02:23 AM	Barbarians are I think better than fighters, but its like comparing a dull wooden spoon to a dull wooden fork in terms of lethality when you open up the armory and look at the druid tank, cleric fortress, and wizard cruise missile. MTF
NineInchNall 09-11-07, 08:49 AM	I usually find the casters the appropriate balance point for the game, as the toughest of monsters are pretty much casters in their own right. Given that, I've found the system revisions here (http://www.d20ragon.com/frank/) to fit pretty much the balance that I want. Specifically, characters that are able to go 50/50 in 1-on-1 duels against most creatures of CR equal to their level. (pdf version (http://middendorfproject.googlepages.com/FrankAndK_v03.pdf))
OneWinged4ngel 09-11-07, 12:37 PM	Well god damn. That's pretty broken. I can't tell if you're trying to be sarcastic or not. The thing is, you get as many tries at suggestion as you want while the enemy is safely fascinated. If an enemy is fascinated, you get one suggestion per level of Bard. If the time runs out, you can fascinate them again. Or you could have your allies use those 6-20 rounds to buff or otherwise prepare and utterly kill the enemy in one round, if you somehow couldn't destroy them with Suggestions. TIME STOP doesn't give you that many free rounds, let alone for your whole party. You can target multiple creatures, and no one is going to make the save DCs because you're rolling your Perform checks with a +40 modifier.
HamHam 09-11-07, 03:25 PM	I can't tell if you're trying to be sarcastic or not. The thing is, you get as many tries at suggestion as you want while the enemy is safely fascinated. If an enemy is fascinated, you get one suggestion per level of Bard. If the time runs out, you can fascinate them again. Or you could have your allies use those 6-20 rounds to buff or otherwise prepare and utterly kill the enemy in one round, if you somehow couldn't destroy them with Suggestions. TIME STOP doesn't give you that many free rounds, let alone for your whole party. You can target multiple creatures, and no one is going to make the save DCs because you're rolling your Perform checks with a +40 modifier. No, I was being serious. I hadn't thought of using those abilities in that way before. And it's freakin broken.
NineInchNall 09-11-07, 04:22 PM	It's no more "broken" than most everything in D&D. By which I mean it's crazy, but since the whole game is crazy, what matter is it? ...
Ghenesh 09-11-07, 04:54 PM	One thing i would like to see in the Cleric is to make it more of a spellcasting class, and less of a fighting class. And of course not a totally frontloaded as it is. This are some random thoughts about the cleric: Nerfs: * No more Heavy Armor proficiency, they are not soldiers... geez, they should know less about combat than a barbarian, although Medium should be fine, after all Clerics are protectors of a deity or ideal, and SOME should know how to fight. * d6 for Hit Die, this should also be for the Druid, after all the Cleric is a full spellcasting class. * Bad Fortitude Save, yeah you heard me, Good Fortitude is insane for this insane class. * No more spontaneus Healing or Inflicting Wounds. Features: * You gain access to the Domains of your deity by taking Clerics levels, you can spontaneusly cast those spells using prepared spell slots of the apropiate level. No more exclusive spell slot for domain spells. E.g. to cast cure spells spontaneusly you must have acces to the Healing Domain. * You gain turn undead attempts per day as class feature. * You gain Sense Motive as a class skill.
HamHam 09-11-07, 06:32 PM	One thing i would like to see in the Cleric is to make it more of a spellcasting class, and less of a fighting class. And of course not a totally frontloaded as it is. This are some random thoughts about the cleric: Nerfs: * No more Heavy Armor proficiency, they are not soldiers... geez, they should know less about combat than a barbarian, although Medium should be fine, after all Clerics are protectors of a deity or ideal, and SOME should know how to fight. * d6 for Hit Die, this should also be for the Druid, after all the Cleric is a full spellcasting class. * Bad Fortitude Save, yeah you heard me, Good Fortitude is insane for this insane class. * No more spontaneus Healing or Inflicting Wounds. Features: * You gain access to the Domains of your deity by taking Clerics levels, you can spontaneusly cast those spells using prepared spell slots of the apropiate level. No more exclusive spell slot for domain spells. E.g. to cast cure spells spontaneusly you must have acces to the Healing Domain. * You gain turn undead attempts per day as class feature. * You gain Sense Motive as a class skill. I actually rather like these. I'll see if I can come up with a rewrite that provides a good spread of abilities across levels.
kadeity 09-11-07, 06:37 PM	alongside the druid, cleric, wizard and tome of battle... i think 3.0 ranger deserves a second try. maybe a tiny bit of tweaking...but i like it better than Nerf-tastic-3.5 ranger
HamHam 09-11-07, 08:59 PM	After some thought about the proposed Cleric fix, I have one real issue: Getting rid of Domain slots in favor of spontanious domain casting seems cool, but it has two potential problems: 1) Healing at low levels. Wands, potions, etc are hard to come by at this level, meaning party healers would have to either take the Healing Domain (and thus also be limited in their choice of Gods) or load up their spell list with healing spells. 2) Spontanious Time Stop, Teleport, etc.
Ghenesh 09-12-07, 03:16 AM	After some thought about the proposed Cleric fix, I have one real issue: Getting rid of Domain slots in favor of spontanious domain casting seems cool, but it has two potential problems: 1) Healing at low levels. Wands, potions, etc are hard to come by at this level, meaning party healers would have to either take the Healing Domain (and thus also be limited in their choice of Gods) or load up their spell list with healing spells. 2) Spontanious Time Stop, Teleport, etc. Are those really problems? I mean, what's wrong with preparing healing spells? It's the same for a party without a cleric, and I have been there. About spontaneous Time Stop, Teleport, Miracle and the like... well, the Sorcerer and the Favored Soul do that at a greater scale, and we're not hearing "spontaneous spellcasting is broken" all over the forums.
OneWinged4ngel 09-12-07, 04:10 AM	After some thought about the proposed Cleric fix, I have one real issue: Getting rid of Domain slots in favor of spontanious domain casting seems cool, but it has two potential problems: 1) Healing at low levels. Wands, potions, etc are hard to come by at this level, meaning party healers would have to either take the Healing Domain (and thus also be limited in their choice of Gods) or load up their spell list with healing spells. 2) Spontanious Time Stop, Teleport, etc. There's already a feat for spontaneous domain casting.
HamHam 09-12-07, 02:20 PM	Updated the first post.
tygreen101 09-12-07, 06:39 PM	if you REALLY want to balance things, make EVERYTHING a skill. leave NOTHING automatically gained(BAB, spell progression) by making everything a skill and they have to choose what they go up in, no one can claim that someone else is unfair. let them choose 10 class skills and allow them to spend thier skill points on everything based upon the current rules(class skills are 1 point = 1 rank and cross-class skills 2 points = 1 rank) but that will never happen. I personally think it would be very cool and would work quite well. new feats would include: 1 hand slashing ( take skill in all 1 hand slashing weapons with just one skill instead of each weapon is a different skill.) maybe a feat to give more HP per rank purchased or to make spell casting development difficult, a feat for all illusion or something like that. but this development system would take too much work for someone to create a straight fighter or a straight mage. but a multi-class concept like a fighter-mage would be A LOT easier to create. please feel free to tear this idea apart now :)
HamHam 09-13-07, 12:29 PM	Proposed Barbarian fix: At 6th: Mettle At 9th: SR (Barbarian levels + Con Mod) At 10th: Arcane Resistance: A barbarian gets a +4 to his SR against Arcane spells or SLAs, and a +2 to saves against arcane spells or SLAs. At 13th: ? At 15th: Psionic Resistance: As Arcane Resistance, except against psionics. At 18th: ? At 19th: ?
NineInchNall 09-13-07, 06:04 PM	How about giving the guy an amount of DR that actually matters? DR 5/- at 20th is a frickin' joke.
Flamewarrior 09-13-07, 06:32 PM	Proposed Barbarian fix: At 6th: Mettle At 9th: SR (Barbarian levels + Con Mod) At 10th: Arcane Resistance: A barbarian gets a +4 to his SR against Arcane spells or SLAs, and a +2 to saves against arcane spells or SLAs. At 13th: ? At 15th: Psionic Resistance: As Arcane Resistance, except against psionics. At 18th: ? At 19th: ?That SR's ridiculous (unless broken with polymorph, which suppose isn't exactly what you wanted to happen), and magic and psionics are transparent (which in D&D means "all that affects one, affects both") is almost all source material, and should've been in its entirety. Also, funny that you seemingly have the intention of cuddling divine casters (by making them immune) while talking about balance. If you happen to know how incarnum works, look here (http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=970&postnum=0).
imakuni67 09-13-07, 06:58 PM	I really can't see SR for the barbarian. Actually I think the barbarian is well balance, though Mettle would be a perfect for him
HamHam 09-13-07, 09:31 PM	How about giving the guy an amount of DR that actually matters? DR 5/- at 20th is a frickin' joke. Good point. How about doubling it? That SR's ridiculous (unless broken with polymorph, which suppose isn't exactly what you wanted to happen), Maybe. How about 10 + level? That would basically mean that any caster with no CL enhancements would have a 50/50 shot at hitting him with a spell. and magic and psionics are transparent (which in D&D means "all that affects one, affects both") is almost all source material, and should've been in its entirety. But Arcane and Psionic are not transparent. Arcane is a specific term that applies only to some magic, while Psionic is a specific term that applies to another group of magic. Also, funny that you seemingly have the intention of cuddling divine casters (by making them immune) while talking about balance. Of the big three divisions of magic, Arcane, Divine, and Psionic, religion is the one your typical Barbarian will actually believe in. That is to say, all that hand waving and mucking around with tomes and stuff that arcanists do, they don't really get that. And the mental extravagances of a psion just make them mad. But gods? They get those. Thus, they are vulnerable to them.
Yadot 09-13-07, 10:41 PM	But Arcane and Psionic are not transparent. Arcane is a specific term that applies only to some magic, while Psionic is a specific term that applies to another group of magic. Combining Psionic And Magical Effects The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics-magic transparency. Psionics-Magic Transparency Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics... As for Divine magic and Barbarians, you're going counter purposes to the idea of core balance by giving 1/3rd of the spellcasters a free go at the Barbarian.
HamHam 09-13-07, 10:48 PM	Combining Psionic And Magical Effects The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics-magic transparency. Psionics-Magic Transparency Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics... Psionic powers don't qualify you for PrCs that require the ability to cast arcane spells. The Barbarian's basic SR will affect Psionics, but then if he's high enough level it will also get a +4. [quote]As for Divine magic and Barbarians, you're going counter purposes to the idea of core balance by giving 1/3rd of the spellcasters a free go at the Barbarian. He'll still have a good bit of SR, a high Fort save, a decent Will save, and Mettle. That's hardly a "free go". And it helps balance because it gives everyone unique strengths and weaknesses.
HamHam 09-16-07, 09:07 PM	Semi Final List: Good as Is: Rogue Wizard Bard Fixed: Rebalanced Paladin Seerow's Combat Style Fighter My Sorcerer Fix Cleric: * Proficient with Light and Medium Armor, and all shields * Sense Motive added to class skills * d6 Hit Die * Bad Fortitude Save * You do not get any domain spells per day. Instead, you can cast spells from your domain spontaniously (but cannot automatically cast cure and inflict spontaniously). You start out with one domain, and gain additional domains at 4th and 8th level. Monk: Full BAB Ranger (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=923139) Barbarian: *Double the DR he gets *New abilities: At 9th: Mettle At 10th: SR (10+Barbarian level) At 13th: Arcane Resistance: A barbarian gets a +4 to his SR against Arcane spells or SLAs, and a +2 to saves against arcane spells or SLAs. At 15th: Psionic Resistance: As Arcane Resistance, except against psionics. At 19th: SR (20+Barbarian level) Druid: Natural Spell is a +1 Metamagic