Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Harfang 06-02-04, 05:34 PM	I might become DM again this coming fall. I really like the UA's spell-point system, but I have serious reservations about balancing the spellcasting classes vs. the other ones, especially since I don't wish a high-magic party. The allowed PC classes in this homebrewed campaign would be fighter, wizard, rogue, cleric and a highly-modified druid. Some of the things that crossed my mind: 1. Vitalising variant for arcane casting. 2. Arcane spells would need to be cast through imbued items. Loss of the imbued items would severely limit the wizard's abilities. 3. All divine spells cast as full-round actions, at least. 4. Limited spontaneous casting for everyone, but at high spell-point and/or hit-point cost. Preparing spells would be cheaper and/or safer. Has anyone used the spell-point system without grossly favouring the spellcasters? Given my present group I'd expect some min/maxing, but not to an obscene level--if I ask politely. :)
Votan 06-02-04, 10:21 PM	Originally posted by Harfang I might become DM again this coming fall. I really like the UA's spell-point system, but I have serious reservations about balancing the spellcasting classes vs. the other ones, especially since I don't wish a high-magic party. The allowed PC classes in this homebrewed campaign would be fighter, wizard, rogue, cleric and a highly-modified druid. Some of the things that crossed my mind: 1. Vitalising variant for arcane casting. 2. Arcane spells would need to be cast through imbued items. Loss of the imbued items would severely limit the wizard's abilities. 3. All divine spells cast as full-round actions, at least. 4. Limited spontaneous casting for everyone, but at high spell-point and/or hit-point cost. Preparing spells would be cheaper and/or safer. Has anyone used the spell-point system without grossly favouring the spellcasters? Given my present group I'd expect some min/maxing, but not to an obscene level--if I ask politely. :) I will admit to some bais as I like arcane casters (and will need to be strongly discouraged from spellcasting classes). :) In general the major issue is that spell points don't help casters alot at low levels but adding penalties really hurts them. Midnight has a magic system that you might like (it is based on feats instead). I'll try and remember to bring the book next week. It also has methods for reducing the cost of spells by preparing them. In general, if you want a low magic party the easiest trick is the Lord of the Rings variant of forced multi-classing. Make characters take a non-spellcasting class level between every spell casting level. It creates a very low magic feel to a party while remaining quite balanced. It would work even better with spell points as the penalty of having to multi-class would balance the flexibility of spell points.
Jell_Moo 06-02-04, 11:10 PM	Originally posted by Harfang I might become DM again this coming fall. I really like the UA's spell-point system, but I have serious reservations about balancing the spellcasting classes vs. the other ones, especially since I don't wish a high-magic party. The allowed PC classes in this homebrewed campaign would be fighter, wizard, rogue, cleric and a highly-modified druid. The point system does not offer more power, so much as it offers greater versatility. It helps avoid the headaches of having to carefully manage and select your spells. In my opinion it doesn't offer any greater power. Just look at the Psion for an example of the basic idea in practice. If you wish to avoid a high magic party, the easiest guy to control is the wizard. Simply have few scrolls or spellbooks in the campaign world for him to learn his spells from. Other than that, you could simply make all characters spontaneous casters and that would certainly limit some of the problem. And that my friend, is a very small list of selectable classes to chose from. It just barely covers the iconic party of warrior, healer, mage, and thief. I'm the type that always likes options, and lacking something as simple as the barbarian closes quite a few doors. The concept is solid, don't get me wrong, but having less than half of the core classes from the PHB present is a bit scary. Some of the things that crossed my mind: 1. Vitalising variant for arcane casting. Not sure what you mean here??? 2. Arcane spells would need to be cast through imbued items. Loss of the imbued items would severely limit the wizard's abilities. Interesting concept. Not really all that needed though, since the same could be accomplished through the loss of the wizard's spellbook. Have you looked at Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed? It has an example of what I think you mean. 3. All divine spells cast as full-round actions, at least. All that would do is have nobody want to play a divine caster. I know I wouldn't want to. It would also result in a lot of character death as the healer would move to his injured friend, but be unable to heal him until the next round. 4. Limited spontaneous casting for everyone, but at high spell-point and/or hit-point cost. Preparing spells would be cheaper and/or safer. Could work I guess, but a clever wizard wouldn't care about the inability to cast spontaneously. Something that could work is use a Wild Surge chart like the old Wild Mage used to have. Whenever somebody casts spontaneously, there would be a d% chance of something going wrong. Has anyone used the spell-point system without grossly favouring the spellcasters? Given my present group I'd expect some min/maxing, but not to an obscene level--if I ask politely. You expect a low level of min/maxing from the guy who lobbyed his DM to allow his Half-Orc to take an Elf only PrC??? Hahahaha.... oh... Good one :) There is the idea of playing a Half-Dragon paladin that I've been toying with... :D
Votan 06-02-04, 11:18 PM	Originally posted by Jell_Moo And that my friend, is a very small list of selectable classes to chose from. It just barely covers the iconic party of warrior, healer, mage, and thief. I'm the type that always likes options, and lacking something as simple as the barbarian closes quite a few doors. The concept is solid, don't get me wrong, but having less than half of the core classes from the PHB present is a bit scary. [/B] Actually, unless we have 4 players this might be an issue. We have a definite fighter player. Jell_Moo has mentioned rogue. I tend to be an arcane. There might not be a healer unless we get into multi-classing.
Jell_Moo 06-02-04, 11:25 PM	Do you think Dorian would want to play another melee character? I tend to prefer stealthy, skillful characters which is why this campaign idea just screams Rogue to me. After Porter, I think I'll be itching to play a less... um... heavy handed character. :) If you do play a Wizard, that would leave use without much in the way of healing wouldn't it? Options as I see it: 1) Instead of a fighter, Dorian plays a very martially oriented cleric. 2) I multiclass as a Rogue/Cleric. 3) You can go the Mystic Theurge route. 4) We get hurt a lot.
Votan 06-02-04, 11:34 PM	Originally posted by Jell_Moo Do you think Dorian would want to play another melee character? I tend to prefer stealthy, skillful characters which is why this campaign idea just screams Rogue to me. After Porter, I think I'll be itching to play a less... um... heavy handed character. :) If you do play a Wizard, that would leave use without much in the way of healing wouldn't it? Options as I see it: 1) Instead of a fighter, Dorian plays a very martially oriented cleric. 2) I multiclass as a Rogue/Cleric. 3) You can go the Mystic Theurge route. 4) We get hurt a lot. If we are low level then mystic theurge isn't going to be much of an option. Same with arcane trickster. Besides, a rogue would be really fun to play with. I am not sure about Dorian but he seems to really like fighter types. The first mini-game we played he was a charismatic fighter. In this game he is a Paladin. If he wants a change that would be neat but I'd expect another figther. Perhaps if we ask nicely a psion will be an option. It's limited in healing but it actually fits the setting better than a wizard in a lot of ways (at least in terms of the way the magic works). In my min-max dreams I see a human paragon/psion combo . . . :) A explorer fits the setting (human paragon) and developing powers of he mind could work too.
BlaineTog 06-03-04, 12:05 AM	A spell point system cannot work without rebalancing every single spell, IMO. The UA system is...ok, but should require the Wizard, Cleric, and Druid to still prep their spells using the points. Oh yeah: all of the casters need more spell points than UA gives them, IMO.
Harfang 06-03-04, 08:50 AM	OK, first off, I'd like to keep the public topic on the balancing aspect of things. Jell_Moo, Votan and I can discuss through e-mail the details of my campaign that would be lost on most everybody else (Dorian does not post here, does he?). For the record, this campaign would be very flavorful and quite far in theme and options from a traditional 'Middle Age Europe' D&D one. The 'cultural role' of the various classes would be strongly emphasised. Jell_Moo, the vitalizing variant is described in UA, p. 156. According to my first draft, loss of the imbued items could be a serious short-term blow, forcing the arcane caster to use only painful/costly spontaneous casting. Loss of the spell-book equivalent would be more long-term. The limitations set on healing by full-round casting come partly from the idea that divine casters should not be looked at as in http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=6 , but I'm open to ideas there. Oh, and before I forget Jell_Moo, there are no half-dragons. :D BlaineTog, I was already planning to have spell preparation the default setting. It's the option of spontaneous casting that I like but fear could break the balance. For the number of spell points, the UA system starts punishing primary casters from 12th level on only; of course, what to do once there? Have you used the system yourself in your campaign?
Jell_Moo 06-03-04, 11:44 AM	Originally posted by Harfang OK, first off, I'd like to keep the public topic on the balancing aspect of things. Jell_Moo, Votan and I can discuss through e-mail the details of my campaign that would be lost on most everybody else (Dorian does not post here, does he?). Fair enough I guess... This is just an awful lot to take in so suddenly. For the record, this campaign would be very flavorful and quite far in theme and options from a traditional 'Middle Age Europe' D&D one. The 'cultural role' of the various classes would be strongly emphasised. I'm all for flavor, but I have to wonder why you want to limit the Core classes like that. I understand what it's like when a class doesn't mesh well with your idea of a campaign world, but when you remove more than half the core classes from the game, balance is suddenly at risk. As it stands now, the only pure melee character is the Fighter, and that is just kinda scary. Jell_Moo, the vitalizing variant is described in UA, p. 156. Not really familiar with that option, I'll look at it when I get home. According to my first draft, loss of the imbued items could be a serious short-term blow, forcing the arcane caster to use only painful/costly spontaneous casting. Loss of the spell-book equivalent would be more long-term. I think I see what you mean now. It is an interesting twist on magic, that's for sure, just as long as it isn't a pre programmed plot device I think it could work. Planning ahead of time that the wizard loses his imbued item would feel like railroading to me. A cool idea though. The limitations set on healing by full-round casting come partly from the idea that divine casters should not be looked at as in http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=6 , but I'm open to ideas there. I think that making all divine spells full round to cast would make the problem even worse. As it is now, divine casters are far from walking band aids. Look at Porter for example. He can and does dish out healing, but he can also use direct damage spells pretty well, and with a single buff spell, do as much or even more damage than the paladin. A lot of that versatility comes being able to move around the battlefield. In a campaign where divine spells take a full round to cast, I wouldn't touch a divine caster with a 10 foot pole. Since I am planning on playing a rogue anyway, I guess the point is moot... ;) Oh, and before I forget Jell_Moo, there are no half-dragons. Oh well, I guess I'll have to settle for Half-Fiend Tiefling or some such thing. :D