Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Beholderbob 03-02-05, 01:40 PM	I'm modifying the Hex Warrior from the Complete Warrior book and want feedback. Do you think this is a balanced change.. 1) drop HD to d8 2) drop Base Attack to 3/4 step (fight as a cleric) 3) spells with a (harmless) note effect 1/2 as many creatures when targeted at creatures other then yourself and your familiar. 1) gains good fort save to go with good will save 2) cast spells as a bard (though with a different list, of course) 3) gain medium armor casting at 7th. Why the change: 1) While a great idea, the class is limited to light armor for a pathetic spell list - one certainly not worth giving up armor for. The other abilities are ok, but the armor restriction really kills the hex warrior as a frontline fighter. Also, the warmage from complete arcane gets medium armor casting (as does the bard at 1st), and neither feels like as much of a warrior as the hex warrior. 2) The focus of the class is blurred a bit, but following the bard as an example, I feel they should receive 2 good saves, not one. Also, as they gain mettle, they should (you would think) have a decent save in the effected save catagories. Go figure. 3) The spell increase is required (in my humble view) to offset the sacrifice for it (the loss of armor). A paladin and ranger gain divine magic and are thus not harmed by the wearing of armor, so a slow rate of spells is fine - they give up nothing while waiting to gain spells. The hex warrior, though, suffers greatly waiting to gain a pathetic list of spells - far too meager and with too infrequent usage to make up for the loss. 4) I add the limitation to the benefits he can grant with his spell (a curse specialist shouldn't be that good at helping others) to help balance the class. Well - let me know what you think! ;) B:88E:B
Vatras 03-02-05, 02:19 PM	Its an arcane paladin type, and if you ask me, I can do without paladins of any stripe and color. At least they didnt give this one the CHA save bonus :) I dont know anyone who would want to play a Hexblade, and he doesnt get time on the min/max board. So it is my conclusion that if someone really wants an arcane paladin, he better start from scrap and give him more focus with a commensurate set of class abilities and a fitting spell list.
Beholderbob 03-02-05, 02:33 PM	Its an arcane paladin type, and if you ask me, I can do without paladins of any stripe and color. At least they didnt give this one the CHA save bonus :) I dont know anyone who would want to play a Hexblade, and he doesnt get time on the min/max board. So it is my conclusion that if someone really wants an arcane paladin, he better start from scrap and give him more focus with a commensurate set of class abilities and a fitting spell list. 1st: thank you - hexblade, not hex warrior. Oh well, I'm at work, not home with the book. 2nd: arcane paladin? Huh. Alignment is way different, does not gain a single paladin ability - rather a unique set of abilities instead. The core version is an arcane warrior meld (by the sounds of which, you do not approve of paladin nor ranger - or any spell casting fighter). The re-write I'm suggesting drops him down a notch - to cleric level fighting ability, and jumping up his spell casting. So the suggested varient is being checked against a different power level and class niche. Given that - how does he balance against the core classes in the suggested new role? I'll post the spell list next. B:88E:B
Beholderbob 03-02-05, 02:36 PM	The spell list is: 0th Daze Detect Magic Detect Poison Flare Know Direction Prestigitation Read Magic Resistance Touch of Fatigue Virtue 1st Augment Familiar (CAW) Backbiter (CAR) Bane Cause Fear Chill Touch Command Deathwatch Disguise Self Distract Assailant (CAV) Doom Endure Elements Enlarge Person Entropic Shield Expeditious Retreat Featherfall Ghost Light (CAR) Hideous Laughter Jump Lesser Confusion Magic Aura Magic Weapon Obscure Object Obscuring Mist Phantom Threat (CW) Ray of Enfeeblement Reduce Person Shield True Strike 2nd Alter Self Bear’s Endurance Blade of Fear & Pain (LM) Bladeweave (CAV) Blur Bull’s Strength Curse of Ill Fortune (CD) Darkness Daze Monster Death Knell False Life Ghoul Touch Hold Person Invisibility Invisibility, Swift (CD) Mirror Image Misdirection Phantom Trap Scare Shatter Summon Swarm Touch of Idiocy Touch of Madness (CD) Wall of Gloom (CAR) By the limit on casting friendly spells on allies, and this spell list, this PC is not able to fill the support niche as well as the bard or cleric, but does provide some offensive kick that is missing from their spells. Book sources used (besides the PHB) LM: Liber Mortis CD: Complete Divine CAV: Complete Adventurer CW: Complete Warrior CAR: Complete Arcane PF: Players Guide to Faerun Unless requested, I'll refrain from making this a mile long post by listing the spells for 3rd-6th level. B:88E:B
DM Zoc 03-02-05, 02:49 PM	2nd: arcane paladin? Huh. Alignment is way different, does not gain a single paladin ability - rather a unique set of abilities instead. Actually, arcane paladin was the first thing I thought of when I saw it. It's clearly based on the paladin design: It's a d10 full BAB fighter who gets a lot of abilities that don't directly help in combat, and four levels of spellcasting that is primarily useful for self-buffing. They both get Charisma to saves, albeit the hexblade only gets it against magic (which is where the majority of difficult saves come from anyway). Paladin is clearly good, while hexblade is any non-good. Since it has arcane spells, it gets arcane spell failure; this has more to do with the inherent bias toward divine magic (which is supposed to compensate for players not wanting to play divine characters). This limits the character to a mithril breastplate, unless you want to spend a feat to get yourself mithril fullplate. I am fully of the opinion that light armor was a conscious decision on the part of the designers using the full knowledge that medium armor almost always means mithril fullplate. It gets a familiar instead of a mount. About the only thing that the hexblade has which isn't clearly designed off of the paladin is the "hex" ability, which I see as being derived from the barbarian. While the barbarian can rage in order to get a bonus to hit, the hexblade can curse in order to give someone a penalty to hitting and a bonus to being hit (or something of the like; I cannot recall exactly). The latter ability seems to me to be more useful, as it's essentially granting a partial rage to your entire party (though this is balanced by the save). Honestly, I don't think you place enough importance on full BAB and d10 hit die. The biggest importance of full BAB is that you essentially have free multiclassing with any other fighting class; a barbarian 3/ fighter 4/ hexblade 3/ ranger 3/ swashbuckler 3/ blackguard 4 still has a BAB of 20, which is what really matters.
Bone Machine 03-02-05, 03:03 PM	Why would anyone want to play a hexblade? It's a fun, flavorful character. As stated above, it's basically a malicious paladin in format. Same spell progression, familiar vs mount, similar skills, etc. If you'd rather curse enemies than lay on hands, the hexblade is for you. I played a halfling hexblade4 in a recent campaign who cursed a minotaur (large!), tripped it, and finally critted it to finish it off. It was a very fun encounter. It really doesn't need balancing seeing how there's absolutely nothing overpowerful about it. It's actually a bit weak in lower levels IMO compared to a fighter, cleric, rogue...
Beholderbob 03-02-05, 03:37 PM	I suppose I should be more clear. I'm looking at making a variant of the Hexblade and want to see if the variant is balanced. I like the hexblade in the book, though I think the armor issue is an error (no medium armored casting, while the warmage gets it at 6th-7th (somewhere) and is less a fighter then the hexblade is. Since spells are so few and far between, I'd take a level in another fighter class at 1st (to get heavier armor), then take the armored casting feat once or twice at higher level - but hey, thats just me. The focus of my post: is this variant balanced. B:88E:B
GimliGloinson 03-02-05, 04:33 PM	I think it's balanced with a couple of needed clarifications: a) Are they spellcasters from level 1? b) I can't remember how many skill points they get. If it's 4 then go with it. If it's 6, drop it to 4.
evangelion1010 03-02-05, 05:18 PM	It personally fits my needs fine... I wanted a character who hated arcane spell casters, and trained to resist them. First 3 levels of hexblade do that very nicely. As a class overall, i like the flavor, and i certainly wouldn't call the class unbalanced...although perhaps a bit off in terms of what it should be.
Creeg 03-02-05, 05:25 PM	take teh battle Caster feat and you can wear medium armor.. or if you want to in you campaign, give it to them for free at around 7th level or so... simple fix
Beholderbob 03-02-05, 05:25 PM	I think it's balanced with a couple of needed clarifications: a) Are they spellcasters from level 1? b) I can't remember how many skill points they get. If it's 4 then go with it. If it's 6, drop it to 4. A) yes, but they can only cast lv 0 spells at 1st. They use the bard spells known and castable. B) 2 SP per level ........evangelion1010 - but does this variant seem balanced as a class? B:88E:B
GimliGloinson 03-02-05, 05:30 PM	I vote for Balanced with your modifications. :D
FlimFlam 03-02-05, 05:33 PM	Instead of spells, I would give it Warlock Invocations :) scaled down of course (in amount, not power).
Beholderbob 03-02-05, 05:42 PM	Creeg: True - but another feat would need to be spent just to get medium armor. So, 2 feats to do it. GimliGloinson: Thanks for the vote! FlimFlam: I'd love to work a warrior-warlock mix, but I'm just not that experienced with the class yet, nor if/what balance issues that would entail. I have yet to play one or be in a game with one. I think it would be a neat class, though Vote so far 1 for balance, 0 against. B:88E:B
Creeg 03-02-05, 05:54 PM	Creeg: True - but another feat would need to be spent just to get medium armor. So, 2 feats to do it. B:88E:B Do it like the war mage, just give them medium armor Prof and the abiity to cast in it about the same level that the warmage gets it.. easy, easy fix
Rowan_Whispercloak 03-02-05, 08:57 PM	If you have a problem with the only casting in light armor, take a feat Battle Caster in the Complete Arcane and you get medium armor.
Debonair 03-03-05, 09:58 AM	It's supposed to be 90% warriorand 10% caster with a few abilities on the top. After your tweeks it fights like a Cleric or Druid with the Hexblade specials instead of Domains, Turning, Wildshape, or things like that, and is a weaker caster. Balanced, possibly underpowered slightly, and slightly negating the intended point of the class. I'd love to play one as written. I have a Rogue3/Hexblade3/Kensai9 who's a lot of fun, but I want to play a straight-up Hex.
Beholderbob 03-03-05, 12:00 PM	It's supposed to be 90% warriorand 10% caster with a few abilities on the top. After your tweeks it fights like a Cleric or Druid with the Hexblade specials instead of Domains, Turning, Wildshape, or things like that, and is a weaker caster. Balanced, possibly underpowered slightly, and slightly negating the intended point of the class. I'd love to play one as written. I have a Rogue3/Hexblade3/Kensai9 who's a lot of fun, but I want to play a straight-up Hex. Well - the varient is not supposed to be, I'm filling another niche for my game. I want a secondary arcane caster, but offensive rather then supportive. Well, you feel its balanced, even if not to your liking. I'll take that as another vote towards balanced (and perhaps weak). 2-0 for balance. B:88E:B
DM Zoc 03-03-05, 03:46 PM	My vote is underpowered. It seems to be pretty much exactly the bard, except slightly more hit points and armor at the cost of being able to support others. The problem I see with this is that, with medium BAB (and strength being a fairly low priority) and no blasting (damage or death) spells, the hexblade lacks the ability to "finish someone off." This hexblade needs the rest of the party, but can't really do much to help anyone except himself. It also really hurts the "tough-guy loner-type" image that the original had, and the possibility of wearing heavy armor (with the closed helm covering the face) really hurts the "pretty-boy angsty-type" image. Maybe I'm just having a hard time justifying a hexblade who is both less-martially-oriented (rogue BAB) and much more heavily-armored (adamant full plate, which he will end up with because high-end armors only come in mithril and adamant and one quick feat will ensure that mithril is un-needed).
Beholderbob 03-03-05, 03:51 PM	Hmmm. 3-0 for balance, 2 votes for weak. Could he retain his full base attack? Would he be balanced with a drop in HD for the increase in spells but with him additional limit on his support spells. What would balance out the class? Feedback definatly wanted! B:88E:B
DM Zoc 03-03-05, 10:27 PM	Could he retain his full base attack? Would he be balanced with a drop in HD for the increase in spells but with him additional limit on his support spells. What would balance out the class? Feedback definatly wanted! You haven't finished the spell list yet. Add Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration (and maybe Greater versions) at the high end, and you're suddenly blaster-y enough to qualify as self-dependent.
Beholderbob 03-07-05, 11:43 AM	Oh, the rest of the spells... 3rd Bestow Curse Blindness/Deafness Contagion Deeper Darkness Dispel Magic Displacement Enhance Familiar (CAR) Ghoul Gesture (LM) Haste Heroism Hound of Doom (CW) Keen Edge Magic Weapon, Greater Nondetection Rage Ray of Exhaustion Shadow Binding (CAR) Slow Speak with Dead Vampiric Touch 4th Confusion Consumptive Force (CD) Crushing Despair Cursed Blade (CW) Dimensional Anchor Enervation Fear Geas, Lesser Giant Vermin Hold Monster Invisibility, Greater Languor (CD) Mark of Justice Pain (CAR) Phantasmal Killer Phantom Steed Poison Polymorph Rusting Grasp Solid Fog Spell Immunity Stoneskin Wither Limb (LM) 5th Baleful Polymorph Battletide (PF) Black Tentacles Break Enchantment Cloudkill Command, Greater False Vision Insect Plague Magic Jar Mind Fog Nightmare Slay Living Spell Resistance Symbol of Pain Waves of Fatigue 6th Acid Fog Antimagic Field Bestow Greater Curse (CD) Circle of Death Consumptive Force, Greater (CD) Creeping Doom Curse of Lycanthropy (CD) Dispel Magic, Greater Eyebite Fiendform (CAR & PF) Flesh to Stone Geas/Quest Heroism, Greater Insanity Mislead Power Word Blind Repulsion Sequester Symbol of Fear Symbol of Weakness Transformation B:88E:B
Vashwood 03-13-05, 02:38 AM	Hmm ... if you are looking for more of a caster-type Hexblade, I do have a suggestion ... if you don't mind something unusual. Typically, you have your full-casters ( anyone who has a caster lvl equal to thier class level, such as bards, druids, sorcerers, etc) and your half-casters (people who get half-caster level, like paladins, hexblades and rangers) ... my idea was what I call a 3/4 caster. I created a rough mechanic that I call Wild Side ... in essence, it is supposed to represent a character (in this case, a class I based around the hexblade and bard) cultivating a darker, wilder personality, and letting it loose in something like a rage to boost his spellcasting power. In game terms, I planned to have it give a bonus to mental stats (perhaps a +4 to Cha) and increase their caster level to equal to thier class level, but only for the duration of the rage. The class in question was to have Bard-style spellcasting (that is, up to 6th lvl) and I was considering creating a subset of darker and more offensive spells that could only be cast while using Wild Side. I dunno what the ability would result in balance-wise, but I figured it was at very least an interesting power ... Well, anyhow, food for thought at least.
spoon242 03-17-05, 12:53 AM	I created a rough mechanic that I call Wild Side ... in essence, it is supposed to represent a character (in this case, a class I based around the hexblade and bard) cultivating a darker, wilder personality, and letting it loose in something like a rage to boost his spellcasting power. In game terms, I planned to have it give a bonus to mental stats (perhaps a +4 to Cha) and increase their caster level to equal to thier class level, but only for the duration of the rage. that's a really cool idea!! however, it has huge potential to be unbalancing. would there be a sort of mental fatigue after the intensified spellcasting like a barbarian suffers after raging? or a physical fatigue? or neither?
Vashwood 03-17-05, 03:13 AM	I did plan on implementing a form of fatigue in there ... just haven't figured out just what form it might take. I'm thinking something more cerebral, perhaps a penalty on Int, Wis or caster level ... or, perhaps, the loss of ability to cast altogether for a time. Originally, I was designing a base class around this ability. It was supposed to be something like an arcane paladin, but with a slightly darker tilt. For example, I was considering giving it Lay on Hands, but changing it to Harm Touch while using the Wild Side ability (both Harm Touch and Lay on Hands would use the same pool of points, of course). I liked the duality the idea presented: a kind protector normally, but capable of being more terrifying than any demon when his charges were truly threatened. Of course, I played La Pucelle Tactics shortly after concieving the idea, and saw that my idea already fleshed out ... so, I kinda lost interest. Oh, and if you enjoyed the Wild Side ability, you might also like my thoughts for the classes final ability. I wanted to allow a version of the Fisson power, where the character splits off into the "dark" spellcaster and the "light" warrior ... as the class was based around the whole "light and dark" duality, as well as blending magecraft with swordsmanship, I felt it fit the flavor nicely. Unfortunately, this class was a nightmare to balance ... ^_^;
Johnny3D3D 03-17-05, 04:32 AM	A) yes, but they can only cast lv 0 spells at 1st. They use the bard spells known and castable. B) 2 SP per level ........evangelion1010 - but does this variant seem balanced as a class? B:88E:B Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I'm almost positve that the Hexblade has no caster level until around 3rd or 4th level.
okaynowa 03-17-05, 05:01 AM	Beholderbob, it looks like a balanced approach to me (I too love the hexblade, despite its flaws), but I would have gone the other way: leave their spell casting as is, and give them better armor. Hmm... or perhaps, they could gain Medium Armor proficiency at, say, 6th level, and Heavy Armor proficiency at 12th level (talking without the book in front of me, here). They could cast only hexblade spells while wearing armor-- any wiz/sorc spells from multiclassing still suffer arcane failure. I like the image of a hexblade as someone who snarls out a curse and then wades into combat, using spells as underhanded tricks when the going gets tough. Your version would have them hanging out more on the edge of melee, and casting spells more often. But, to each their own!
Beholderbob 03-17-05, 11:07 AM	A) yes, but they can only cast lv 0 spells at 1st. They use the bard spells known and castable. B) 2 SP per level Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I'm almost positve that the Hexblade has no caster level until around 3rd or 4th level. Yes - I'm suggesting a varient, HD d8, Batt as cleric, 2 good saves, and spells as a bard - but with a different list. See the 1st post. B:88E:B