Post/Author/DateTime	Post
imneuromancer 08-17-05, 07:33 PM	Having read the various threads on how sad the fighter is at high levels, how powerful the various classes are, how some people would change things, and now having played the (excellent, I was very pleasantly surprised!) d20 Star Wars Role Playing Game, I have the following suggestions for how to change things to make play better in the future. I guess the purpose of this exercise is to make spellcasters stink less up front, to make warrior-type characters wait for a few of their abilites, as well as to make them tougher at higher levels, and to generally make each class better to play straight 20 rather than be FORCED to take a prestige class. This is, of course, a thought experiment. Feel free to disagree/flame/etc. :-) Here is how I would change the various classes: WIZARDS/SORCERERS: * Wizards and sorcerers merge to one class again because spellcasting becomes a mix of prepared and spontaneous spellcasting. A spellcaster would have a spellbook as per a wizard. Every day the caster would pick what spells (as per the sorcerer "known spell" list) they want to cast that day. Once they have picked them, they spontaneously cast as a sorcerer does. This would basically allow more flexibility in casting, but would keep bookkeeping in-game at a minimum. * Number of spells would be based on INT, power of spells (save DC) based on CHA. * Remove arcane spell failure for spells. The changes here will balance things out because dipping into another class would be less desirable. However, spellcasters are not proficient with ANY weapons at first level except club and quarterstaff. Nor are they proficient in any armors (see fighters, below). * HP are d6. * Bonus metamagic/item creation feats at 4/8/12/16/20 (keep scribe scroll at first level, so it is actually 1/4/8/12/16/20, but why quibble?). * Instead of getting a familiar, the Mage gets a free feat at first level. The feat list you could pick from would be: Obtain Familiar (so you CAN get a familiar if you want), any metamagic feat (prereqs still required), Toughness, Simple weapon proficiency, <some others> CLERIC AND DRUID: * Similar to the Mage (sorcerer/wizard, above), Clerics and Druids would pick what spells they get each day and then spontaneously cast after that point, similar to a Favoured Soul. Clerics and Druids would keep a "spellbook" in the form of their Divine Focus. They would buy spells at the same pay rate as a mage puts scrolls in their book, and the Divine Focus would be the conduit to reaching those spells. The only real difference would be: a) a Divine Caster can choose any spell they want from the list, they don't have to scrounge and copy spells from other casters. Divine Casters get it by giving money to their deity. b) Divine Casters would have an ability to make their Divine Focus tougher (maybe make it hardness 15+, etc.). Could remake as per a wizard spellbook if lost. Could also make the Divine Focus into a magic item, if they take appropriate magic item creation feat. * Number of spells based on Wisdom, power of spells (spell DCs) based on CHA * Druid WILDSHAPE needs to be a set of bonuses or abilities, not polymorph, which is horribly broken broken broken. * Simple Weapon proficiency at 1st level, martial weapon proficiencies at 8th level. Light/Medium/Heavy armour proficiencies at levels 1/4/8. FIGHTERS: * Simple weapon proficiency at 1st level. Martial Weapon proficiencies at 3rd level. * Armour proficiencies of Light/Medium/Heavy at 1/3/5. Shield at 2nd, Tower shield at 4th. * Bonus feats at 2/3/4/6/8/etc. * A spell-like ability, cast 1/day, max level of spell is 1/2 fighter level (Max 9th-level, i.e. a 8th-level fighter could get a 4th-level spell-like ability, 20th level fighter a 9th-or-lower spell-like ability). Ability comes at 4/8/12/16/20. * One (maybe two?) Supernatural ability at 11th (maybe 14th) similar to Favoured Soul. Sample abilities: grow wings, airwalk, low-level spell resistance, maybe some energy resistance.... BARBARIAN (berserker): * First of all, call them a "berserker" instead of a Barbarian. Sheesh. * Proficiencies for weapons/armour similar to fighter except no heavy armour. * Rage ability equal to 1 point/level to STR and CON. i.e. 3rd-level berserker gets a +3 STR and +3 CON. 16th-level berserker gets +16 STR +16 CON * Fast movement comes in at 5th-level, but increases by +10 per 5 levels (i.e. +20 at 10th, +30 at 15th, etc.). Ability to airwalk at 10th level. * Other than that, berserkers are not badly balanced and generally gain cool abilities as they go up (tweaking may be necessary, but probably no spell-like powers as a fighter). * Get rid of the illiteracy thing. That is just silly. PALADIN/RANGER: * Weapon/Armour proficiencies as a fighter. Spellcasting changed as a cleric (slower progression, like some current PrCs). May need some tweaking, esp. in the spell-like ability department, to make balanced. Generally not bad because they have spellcasting, but need some tweaking considerering the overhaul the other class are getting. MONK: * More cool super-monk-like abilties. Add Spell-like abilities as per the fighter. See also Paladin/Ranger, above. ROGUE * Light armour profiency at 3rd level. Simple Weapon proficiency at 1st level. Martial Weapon Proficiency at 8th level. * Bonus to Use Magic Device, maybe +1/level. * Spell-like abilities as per the fighter, slower rate: 5/10/15/20. Supernatual ability at 11 (or 13th) should include invisibility, or something rogue-like. Keep the extraordainary abilities they get around 10th, and sneak attack, of course. * d8 hit dice BARD * Armour/weapon proficiency as the rogue. * Get rid of Bardic Knowledge and just give bards 8 skill points/level, but all the knowledge skills. Maybe get rid of some of the more rogue-like skills so that there is more parity * Almost full caster progression as a mage, instead of the junk they have now. Lose a caster level at level 1 and 10 (so a 20th-level bard would be caster level 18). Extra spells based on INT, power (spell DCs) based on CHA. * "Spellbooks" or "Divine Focus" equivalent would be their instrument (no, they can't just have "singing" as their instrument. It has to be a physical instrument) * Keep bard song as it is, it is pretty cool. * d6 hit dice * Reason to go bard instead of mage: bard song, armour/weapon proficiencies, skill points. Reason to go mage instead of bard: extra feats, full caster progression. GENERAL STUFF * Anyone with 10+ ranks in appropriate craft skill can make magical weapons and armour. Caster level is Craft skill -3. May still need caster for some special abilities that require spells, but for most things a talented crafter can make a magic weapon/armour.
Norhg 08-17-05, 07:51 PM	Balance by superpowering? Fun before it explodes. I can't comment on balance. The changes you are suggesting would affect far too much and alter far too many aspects of the game for me to judge without playtesting. I'll try anyway, but later... GENERAL STUFF Anyone with 10+ ranks in appropriate craft skill can make magical weapons and armour. Caster level is Craft skill -3. May still need caster for some special abilities that require spells, but for most things a talented crafter can make a magic weapon/armour. How about Ranks-3? Craft Skill-3 is just wrong. (I think you meant ranks)
imneuromancer 08-17-05, 07:59 PM	"Balance by superpowering? Fun before it explodes." I generally like the idea of the CHARACTER becoming more powerful, not their magic items. Personally, I would have less magic items, but more "innate" powers to balance things out. Personal preference, of course. The biggest problems I see (and therefore the ones that I am trying to overcome in the above post) are: 1) Cherrypicking of classes to get into prestige classes, where the REAL power lies 2) Front-loaded warrior classes and top-loaded spellcasting classes So my suggestions are mostly to counter those problems. OH, and I did mean to say "ranks-3" for the magic weapon/armour creation. I would go back and edit it, but then your post wouldn't make sense :-)
q'afuu 08-17-05, 08:09 PM	FIGHTERS: * Simple weapon proficiency at 1st level. Martial Weapon proficiencies at 3rd level. * Armour proficiencies of Light/Medium/Heavy at 1/3/5. Shield at 2nd, Tower shield at 4th. * Bonus feats at 2/3/4/6/8/etc. * A spell-like ability, cast 1/day, max level of spell is 1/2 fighter level (Max 9th-level, i.e. a 8th-level fighter could get a 4th-level spell-like ability, 20th level fighter a 9th-or-lower spell-like ability). Ability comes at 4/8/12/16/20. * One (maybe two?) Supernatural ability at 11th (maybe 14th) similar to Favoured Soul. Sample abilities: grow wings, airwalk, low-level spell resistance, maybe some energy resistance.... Spell-like abilities? Supernatural abilities? What the heck? Does every swordswinger become semi-magical after a while or something? I really, really dislike this. And it's not just the fighter - you'd have everyone and the donkey they rode into town on become magical beings. As for delaying the proficiencies and even the feat acquisition, that seems to be going overboard. A first level warrior (the NPC class) beats the pants off a first level fighter with these changes. Obviously you'd change that class too, but it should illustrate the point. Fighters are not that overpowered at low levels. Delaying shield and medium/heavy armour proficiencies pretty much insures that a class that's supposed to be able to survive melee for a couple of rounds at least will have a glass jaw for 4-5 levels unless the player rolls well enough for three good physical stats, and god forbid he'd want anything decent for his mental abilities too.
imneuromancer 08-17-05, 10:56 PM	Cool, q'afuu, thanks for the input! Again, this is just a thought experiment :-) As to the spell-like abilities: considering almost every class has supernatural abilities built in by about 3rd-level, and considering pretty much every prestige class has them, and considering the reason you GO into a prestige class is to get them.... why not just let the darn class have the abilities in the first place? I see no reason why a fighter would never learn a samttering of magic, and certainly a rogue SHOULD learn some magic. It would be like a modern soldier not using technology beyond his rifle, because that ain't FIGHTIN'. In a world of magic, a fighter would pick up magic. In a world of technology, a fighter would use email and GPS (and MREs). As to the proficiencies, I would say maybe have armour be a 1/2/3 light/medium/heavy. Considering there are now *20* levels just to become famous (i.e. epic) I think we have to start thinking of the first few levels as being the "squire" levels. Why didn't everyone in a medieval army have swords? Because they were expensive, etc. So maybe the first few levels, everyone in the party has to make due with longspears and morningstars. Would actually be interesting and a little more realistic. Same with armour. By the time you have enough cash to buy it, you would get the proficiency... And besides, the point is to make cherrypicking not as useful, and slightly delaying those feats makes it more tempting to go Fighter (or whatever) 20, with the added benefit that you get better and better abilities as you climb levels. Right now, an 18th-level fighter is getting about the same benefit (one feat) as a 2nd level fighter (one feat). Seems more wrong to me that this is the case, then the "wrongness" of allowing very-high level characaters to get increasingly powerful abilities. The fact that the abilitees are magical is just a byproduct of the system and the worlds where that system is in place. Dunno. Maybe it is the Earthdawn player in me, but I see the main problem with D&D balance is that characters are so incredibly dependent on magic items to gain any abilities whatsoever. This has always mildly annoyed me, and so I gave ideas on how to fix it.
Manyfist 08-17-05, 11:02 PM	What about Psion, Psychic Warrior, and Wilder?
Clawhound 08-18-05, 12:01 PM	I generally agree with the idea that fighters and rogues need some type of supernatural ability. Fighters and rogues really need the ability to be effective without equipment upgrades. They should both be more wu xia in feel.
Milo HoBo 08-18-05, 06:42 PM	Very much a fan of the concept. Well thought out. I am not a nay saying type, but most people don't play Dungeons and Dragons for its realistic qualities. However, I do like the concept. It sounds as though you are just tweeking the classes, but don't be scared to add some other concepts. I would like to hear from you when you finish writing everything out. :rolleyes:
q'afuu 08-19-05, 07:33 AM	As to the spell-like abilities: considering almost every class has supernatural abilities built in by about 3rd-level, and considering pretty much every prestige class has them, and considering the reason you GO into a prestige class is to get them... I think your considerations are slightly off the mark: 1) almost every class has supernatural abilities built in by about 3rd-level: Barbs don't (all Ex); Druids get Wildshape at level 5; Fighters get no Su abilities at all either; nor do Rangers; or Rogues for that matter; I'll consider Sorcerer spellcasting as supernatural, since it's inborn, but a wizard's casting isn't. That's 5 out of 11 core classes without supernatural abilities. Magical ones, perhaps, but not supernatural. Casting learned spells is not Su, otherwise abilities like a Bladesinger's Song of Celerity wouldn't be Ex. 2) pretty much every prestige class has them: looking at the CW, 20 do and 15 don't. Out of those 20 half a dozen have one or two, and they're high level ones. Out of the DMG PRCs, the majority don't get any Su or Sp abilities. 3) the reason you GO into a prestige class is to get them: considering chances are the PrC you're interested in either doesn't get any Su abilities or only gets one at very high level, I seriously doubt they're *the* reason to take a PrC. Considering there are now *20* levels just to become famous (i.e. epic) I think we have to start thinking of the first few levels as being the "squire" levels. No offense, but what does that have to do with anything? You're seriously weakening the fighter class for several levels to the point that they can't contribute as well as they should until they get past these levels, that's the long and short of it. A fighter can't do anything but fighting, he has no real skills or abilities that make him useful outside combat. Take away his AC and his damage by delaying proficiencies and he can't do even that anymore. Even worse, if he wants to be able to even try to help out despite the above, he'd better have some serious physical stats if he doesn't want to be outdamaged, out-AC'ed and out-hp'ed by the first opponent he runs into. In essence, you've given the fighter the MAD of the paladin.
seng3 08-19-05, 12:45 PM	Having read the various threads on how sad the fighter is at high levels, how powerful the various classes are, how some people would change things, and now having played the (excellent, I was very pleasantly surprised!) d20 Star Wars Role Playing Game, I have the following suggestions for how to change things to make play better in the future. I guess the purpose of this exercise is to make spellcasters stink less up front, to make warrior-type characters wait for a few of their abilites, as well as to make them tougher at higher levels, and to generally make each class better to play straight 20 rather than be FORCED to take a prestige class. This is, of course, a thought experiment. Feel free to disagree/flame/etc. :-) Here is how I would change the various classes: WIZARDS/SORCERERS: * Wizards and sorcerers merge to one class again because spellcasting becomes a mix of prepared and spontaneous spellcasting. A spellcaster would have a spellbook as per a wizard. Every day the caster would pick what spells (as per the sorcerer "known spell" list) they want to cast that day. Once they have picked them, they spontaneously cast as a sorcerer does. This would basically allow more flexibility in casting, but would keep bookkeeping in-game at a minimum. * Number of spells would be based on INT, power of spells (save DC) based on CHA. * Remove arcane spell failure for spells. The changes here will balance things out because dipping into another class would be less desirable. However, spellcasters are not proficient with ANY weapons at first level except club and quarterstaff. Nor are they proficient in any armors (see fighters, below). * HP are d6. * Bonus metamagic/item creation feats at 4/8/12/16/20 (keep scribe scroll at first level, so it is actually 1/4/8/12/16/20, but why quibble?). * Instead of getting a familiar, the Mage gets a free feat at first level. The feat list you could pick from would be: Obtain Familiar (so you CAN get a familiar if you want), any metamagic feat (prereqs still required), Toughness, Simple weapon proficiency, <some others> I think the weapon proficiency are fine. Merging the 2 class will boost the Mage. But may end up overpowering them at high levels. Stick to d4hp, if not they will be like Rogue and Bard, then you need to raise them and end up increasing everyone's HP ... CLERIC AND DRUID: * Similar to the Mage (sorcerer/wizard, above), Clerics and Druids would pick what spells they get each day and then spontaneously cast after that point, similar to a Favoured Soul. Clerics and Druids would keep a "spellbook" in the form of their Divine Focus. They would buy spells at the same pay rate as a mage puts scrolls in their book, and the Divine Focus would be the conduit to reaching those spells. The only real difference would be: a) a Divine Caster can choose any spell they want from the list, they don't have to scrounge and copy spells from other casters. Divine Casters get it by giving money to their deity. b) Divine Casters would have an ability to make their Divine Focus tougher (maybe make it hardness 15+, etc.). Could remake as per a wizard spellbook if lost. Could also make the Divine Focus into a magic item, if they take appropriate magic item creation feat. * Number of spells based on Wisdom, power of spells (spell DCs) based on CHA * Druid WILDSHAPE needs to be a set of bonuses or abilities, not polymorph, which is horribly broken broken broken. * Simple Weapon proficiency at 1st level, martial weapon proficiencies at 8th level. Light/Medium/Heavy armour proficiencies at levels 1/4/8. Good idea about the Wild Shape. I still prefer you leave the Weapon and Armor prof intact. FIGHTERS: * Simple weapon proficiency at 1st level. Martial Weapon proficiencies at 3rd level. * Armour proficiencies of Light/Medium/Heavy at 1/3/5. Shield at 2nd, Tower shield at 4th. * Bonus feats at 2/3/4/6/8/etc. * A spell-like ability, cast 1/day, max level of spell is 1/2 fighter level (Max 9th-level, i.e. a 8th-level fighter could get a 4th-level spell-like ability, 20th level fighter a 9th-or-lower spell-like ability). Ability comes at 4/8/12/16/20. * One (maybe two?) Supernatural ability at 11th (maybe 14th) similar to Favoured Soul. Sample abilities: grow wings, airwalk, low-level spell resistance, maybe some energy resistance.... I believe the Fighter should not have Su or Sp abilities. Thats the Spellsword or Psy Warrior. Boosting the Fighter need not give them magical powers. Here's what I am considering... remove weapon spec, give Fighter +1dmg/ 2 Fighter level for all weapon (or just for those weapons he has WF if you believe in Fighter must specialise in weapon) For those who like Fighter to have non-mudane abilities, take Wild Talent or some level of Psy Warrior. Or just develop some Ki feats that a Fighter can take.... Or simply multiclass with Mage. BARBARIAN (berserker): * First of all, call them a "berserker" instead of a Barbarian. Sheesh. * Proficiencies for weapons/armour similar to fighter except no heavy armour. * Rage ability equal to 1 point/level to STR and CON. i.e. 3rd-level berserker gets a +3 STR and +3 CON. 16th-level berserker gets +16 STR +16 CON * Fast movement comes in at 5th-level, but increases by +10 per 5 levels (i.e. +20 at 10th, +30 at 15th, etc.). Ability to airwalk at 10th level. * Other than that, berserkers are not badly balanced and generally gain cool abilities as they go up (tweaking may be necessary, but probably no spell-like powers as a fighter). * Get rid of the illiteracy thing. That is just silly. Agree, Barbarian should be Berserker. 1pt per level to STR and CON could have incredible result. What I di for mine is to let the STR and CON remain as RAW. Give them +1dmg /2 Barbarian level when raging. This will prevent super high HP and Monstrous Strength... I also give +1 STR and CON / 4 Barbarian level to boost Barbarian when not Raging. See my suggestions here http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=483197 I think Rogue and Monk are fine though... Monk may need some bonus to hit and Rogue some feats when SA is not useful..