Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SilverEyes 01-19-07, 01:39 AM	After reading through the book,which I more or less really like, and comparing the ToB classes to existing martial classes I have reached the conclusion that they are too powerful. Don't get me wrong, I love the flavour of the classes (especially swordsage), and I feel that the crusader and swordsage were done well. The warblade was not. The only disadvantage they have is not being able to use heavy armour, other than that, they have (IMHO) access to the best maneuver trees (Iron Heart (sp?) FTW!), have d12 hit die, full BAB, plus sweet abilities, and oh, they can get ALL their maneuvers back in a single round. Plus they can use two stances simultaneously, lets say, get DR 5/- as a Su, and... (don't have book on me)... I find it unrealistic that maneuvers can be regained in this way since they appear fairly comparable with spells of the same level, which take much longer to regain. My (modest) changes to the classes; reduce each class skill points by 2 (I believe resulting in 2 for crusader, 4 for swordsage, and 2 for warblade, correct me if I'm wrong). Why do they receive so many skill points? The thing which I know will generate a lot of controversy from the boards, remove the ability to regain maneuvers (strikes/boosts) while in an encounter for all classes. However, this may be too harsh (especially for the crusader), so can anyone give me an idea of how to approach what I believe to be a problem? (or give another lovely discourse on how CoDzilla is overpowered, hence ToB classes are ok?!?!?) I'm open for plain discussion, and no, I'm not trolling. (Side rant: I HATE the phrase P.E.A.C.H., and talk about 4.0).
Tempest Stormwind 01-19-07, 01:51 AM	In short, you are wrong. The classes look very strong on paper, but try actually playing one. The only thing they're hands-down better at than existing melee characters are having *fun* options in combat (as opposed to "I try to hit it again"). Warblades are stronger than the fighter at higher levels, but EVERYTHING'S stronger than the fighter. They're about on par with barbarians who don't gimp themselves. These guys are really good at drawing enemy attention and making spectacular attacks, but they won't exceed what you can do with other classes. Swordsages are similar to monks or rogues, and are about in the same power bracket. They may be more supernatural than the others, but they pay for it by being fragile and weak by comparison to other classes and having the worst recovery system known to man. These guys are really good at having the right maneuver for the right situation, though the hard part is GETTING into the right place to use it (especially with Shadow Hand). Crusaders are what paladins should have been -- the devoted bulwark who just doesn't die and continually inspires his team to fight on. Mechanically, though, they're on par with an optimized paladin at lower levels, and a similar thematic build at higher levels. The area they're really good at is tanking. And believe me, that's just looking at melee classes. If we bring CoDzilla into the mix, then they fail against that beast as well. If you compare to more reasonable character classes, they're just where they should be. [EDIT: you may find this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=762982) on the warblade interesting, or this one (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=769993) on the ToB in general. In both cases, people did the knee-jerk thing and said "no, too powerful" and in both cases proof is provided to stop that action. A good analogue would be the warlock -- people reacted to the words "at will" and cried out that it was broken, when really it's one of the best-done things WotC's published in 3.5.] Short answer: Play one. You'll find they're *FUN* and *ENGAGING*, but not overpowered. By the way, I agree with your last paragraph in ways that transcend what these words on your screen can convey.
wolfie-kun 01-19-07, 08:18 AM	The only real "broken" thing in ToB would be the Ruby Knight Vindicator...and it feeds off the divine casting and turn attempts to get that brokeness. Everything else is simply cool and new.
SlatzGrubnik 01-19-07, 11:56 AM	[EDIT: you may find this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=762982) on the warblade interesting, or this one (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=769993) on the ToB in general. In both cases, people did the knee-jerk thing and said "no, too powerful" and in both cases proof is provided to stop that action. A good analogue would be the warlock -- people reacted to the words "at will" and cried out that it was broken, when really it's one of the best-done things WotC's published in 3.5. Thanks for that, and I am playing the warblade now, in another game. However, in the game refered to in my post (DM #1 for those who remember), i was still not allowed to play it. But thats ok... IMO there's no reason to balance the ToB classes..
archcomponent 01-19-07, 01:03 PM	I can help you to balance ToB in just a few easy steps. Step 1: For the love of God, stop comparing things to the fighter! Step 2: THERE IS NO STEP 2. Oh, and if you are making balance changes and citing "realism" as the concern, you really have some wires crossed.
Spikes01k 01-19-07, 01:13 PM	In short, you are wrong. The classes look very strong on paper, but try actually playing one. The only thing they're hands-down better at than existing melee characters are having *fun* options in combat (as opposed to "I try to hit it again"). Warblades are stronger than the fighter at higher levels, but EVERYTHING'S stronger than the fighter. They're about on par with barbarians who don't gimp themselves. These guys are really good at drawing enemy attention and making spectacular attacks, but they won't exceed what you can do with other classes. Swordsages are similar to monks or rogues, and are about in the same power bracket. They may be more supernatural than the others, but they pay for it by being fragile and weak by comparison to other classes and having the worst recovery system known to man. These guys are really good at having the right maneuver for the right situation, though the hard part is GETTING into the right place to use it (especially with Shadow Hand). Crusaders are what paladins should have been -- the devoted bulwark who just doesn't die and continually inspires his team to fight on. Mechanically, though, they're on par with an optimized paladin at lower levels, and a similar thematic build at higher levels. The area they're really good at is tanking. And believe me, that's just looking at melee classes. If we bring CoDzilla into the mix, then they fail against that beast as well. If you compare to more reasonable character classes, they're just where they should be. [EDIT: you may find this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=762982) on the warblade interesting, or this one (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=769993) on the ToB in general. In both cases, people did the knee-jerk thing and said "no, too powerful" and in both cases proof is provided to stop that action. A good analogue would be the warlock -- people reacted to the words "at will" and cried out that it was broken, when really it's one of the best-done things WotC's published in 3.5.] Short answer: Play one. You'll find they're *FUN* and *ENGAGING*, but not overpowered. By the way, I agree with your last paragraph in ways that transcend what these words on your screen can convey. Completly agreed! The entire book was basicly "oh yeah sorry about the fighter, we screwed up, here is a fix you have to pay for"
Pyke_Moonshadow 01-19-07, 01:43 PM	I am playing a swordsage right now and it seems ...ok. the only other meleer in the group is a soulborn and the SS is better than him by a bit but not "OMG WTF" good. I did make some changes to the warblade in my games. He gets a d10 HD, loses the weapon aptitude ability and has to refresh by spending a full round action (no attacking and refreshing). The reason for the extra skill points is that they have maneuvers that rely on skill checks (jump, concentration, etc).
Leress 01-19-07, 01:53 PM	Completly agreed! The entire book was basicly "oh yeah sorry about the fighter, we screwed up, here is a fix you have to pay for" More like, here is are some crumbs to stop the peasant from revolting, and you have to pay for the crumbs too.
SlatzGrubnik 01-19-07, 03:15 PM	I think, when a new D&D book comes out, instead of looking at it and say 'omg its broken!', try using the new material in your campaign, or in a separate game, and get a feel for it.. if it's more powerful than what you are comfortable with, dont use it in your games, or limit its use to NPCs, or in settings specific to your world that it may fit in...
Orion_Danthyer 01-19-07, 04:09 PM	Warblades are stronger than the fighter at higher levels, but EVERYTHING'S stronger than the fighter. They're about on par with barbarians who don't gimp themselves. These guys are really good at drawing enemy attention and making spectacular attacks, but they won't exceed what you can do with other classes. Uhh, not exactly true, Warblades and Fighters are the Best Melee Fighters. Warblades are just better. Anyway, they both are the only ones to get, Melee Weapon Mastery, Crushing Strike, Driving Attack, Slashing Furry, and Weapon Supremacy(all in the PH2) plus weapon Special, Greater Weapon Focus, and greater Weapon Specialization. (In PH) NO ONE else can use these feats, and if i remember what my DM said, that a fighter Can average 60 points of Damage Per hit, 4 hits, maybe even greater, i dont see why Fighters are underpowered at high Levels?
TimeDaemon 01-19-07, 04:20 PM	Clerics and druids are the best melee fighters. Fighters are middle of the road melee fighters, and when that is all that you can do, you suck.
Tempest Stormwind 01-19-07, 04:22 PM	Do not bring up fighter balance when the OP hasn't. And ironically, your sig gives you the answer you need. Compare Melee Weapon Mastery to gate (which wizards get one level earlier). A fighter with all of those feats to a wizard with one fewer 9th level spells for the day and a SOLAR beside him. I think the solar (which has a CR higher than the party at this point) just might be better at the fighter's job than the fighter, and comes with full cleric spellcasting to boot. Seriously, if you think the fighter's fine, start reading a bit more. You'll see why it blatantly isn't, unless you're bad at math.
Orion_Danthyer 01-19-07, 04:24 PM	Clerics and druids are the best melee fighters. Fighters are middle of the road melee fighters, and when that is all that you can do, you suck. Yea, im a middle of the road fighter with a helm of brilliance, Boots of Flying, some other items that allow flying, and a mantle of epic SR. Pwned. And a Ring of Spellturning.
wolfie-kun 01-19-07, 04:28 PM	Yea, im a middle of the road fighter with a helm of brilliance, Boots of Flying, some other items that allow flying, and a mantle of epic SR. Pwned. And a Ring of Spellturning. Please don't start this...
Tempest Stormwind 01-19-07, 04:32 PM	Yea, im a middle of the road fighter with a helm of brilliance, Boots of Flying, some other items that allow flying, and a mantle of epic SR. Pwned. And a Ring of Spellturning. DO NOT BRING UP THIS TOPIC IF THE OP REQUESTED YOU NOT TO. (By the way, the druid can do the same, but can also turn into a giant bear and eat people. And then summon help and call down lightning and heal those he accidentally hit. Anyone can use magic items. That's not a class balance choice.)
Phelot_Plaguecrafter 01-19-07, 04:47 PM	I quite literally JUST finished explaining this in another post. I really think people need to read around before they just explode their thread topics onto the page. A 20 Warblade is super powered. A 20 Wizards is super powered. A 20 Fighter is super powered. A 20 Druid is super powered. Wizards isn't retarded. They're smarter than most of us in the subject of DnD. They write books and errata. No amount of whining will make them go, "Herm, let's change our entire thought process on a book we marketed!" In short, and no offense meant to any party: Deal.
Witch 01-19-07, 05:01 PM	They're smarter than most of us in the subject of DnD. They write books and errata. You'd be surprised at how little they know of some things ;)
Aggrenox 01-19-07, 05:06 PM	Some of us hate ToB after using it. But then we get screamed at for not liking it because the powergamers Creamed thier Jeans over it. ToB is to overpowered for ROLEPLAYING GAMES, but it is a fantastic resource for MUNCHKIN d20. *ducks*
Phelot_Plaguecrafter 01-19-07, 05:10 PM	Hahahaha, Aggrenox, haven't you suffered enough? Get off your cross, we need the wood. ^_^
Aggrenox 01-19-07, 05:15 PM	I'm staying up here until I get my copy of Complete Scoundrel. Then I will retreat to my cave to bask in its warm love.
theotherdraxen 01-19-07, 05:24 PM	I quite literally JUST finished explaining this in another post. I really think people need to read around before they just explode their thread topics onto the page. A 20 Warblade is super powered. A 20 Wizards is super powered. A 20 Fighter is super powered. A 20 Druid is super powered. Wizards isn't retarded. They're smarter than most of us in the subject of DnD. They write books and errata. No amount of whining will make them go, "Herm, let's change our entire thought process on a book we marketed!" In short, and no offense meant to any party: Deal. General consensus would like to have a word with you. Some of us hate ToB after using it. But then we get screamed at for not liking it because the powergamers Creamed thier Jeans over it. ToB is to overpowered for ROLEPLAYING GAMES, but it is a fantastic resource for MUNCHKIN d20. *ducks* No, there's a mistake here (beyond, I believe, comitting the SW fallacy). I roleplay, and I like ToB. In fact, most of the 'leader' classes tended to suck beforehand, and even in our non-optimizing group, I was still behind and contributing less than a caster two levels lower than me. Now that we have White Raven Marshal, there are effective mechanics for my concept. The other thing is, from what I understand, ToB has a very specific power level that is hard to push up or down (though it can be done). So if your group tends to play pretty low power, then ToB is not for you. If your group plays pretty high power (i.e., everyone is playing CoDzilla) then ToB is not for you (but Planar Shepherd is). If your group plays mid-high power games, then you'll like ToB. This might be part of why there's a lot of ToB is overpowered talk: it is for some games, but not for every game.
Tempest Stormwind 01-19-07, 05:26 PM	Really? Overpowered for roleplay? I guess I'd better stop playing in my high-roleplay games with my friends, the vast majority of which have Tome of Battle material in their characters. And here I thought that you could roleplay strong characters just fine. Just because the character doesn't suck doesn't mean that he isn't also well-roleplayed.
Aggrenox 01-19-07, 05:36 PM	Thats not what I'm saying. Why does everyone think that I'm trying to put them down. What I mean by overpowered for roleplaying is that BATTLE SHOULD BE ROLEPLAYED TOO! (caps lock is cruise control for cool). But when the party has combat that lasts 3 rounds and they take out the group you worked on for a week, the Dm doesn't have any fun either. I have no problems balancing fun hack and slash with roleplay. But all of the latest suppliments have just added more power to the already strong PC, And damnit I'm tired of having to add class levels to Friggen orcs. They should be a problem on thier own. Frankly I'm tired of having to script my adventures to accomodate Axiomatic Goliath Warblade/Psions. PLAY A DAMNED DWARF FIGHTER.
Aggrenox 01-19-07, 05:37 PM	w/ craft basketweaving.
theotherdraxen 01-19-07, 05:53 PM	Thats not what I'm saying. Why does everyone think that I'm trying to put them down. You called us munchkins. What I mean by overpowered for roleplaying is that BATTLE SHOULD BE ROLEPLAYED TOO! Hmm...Leap Attack+Shock Trooper+Spirited Charge+Over the Top for 200+ damage at 15th level. Roleplay: General Falcov rides forward, spurring his horse into a jump; leaping with great alacrity, and plunging his lance recklessly into the dragon with a heroic battlecry "Fight for the walls of Quay!". But when the party has combat that lasts 3 rounds and they take out the group you worked on for a week, the Dm doesn't have any fun either. Average battles last 3-6 rounds. I have no problems balancing fun hack and slash with roleplay. But all of the latest suppliments have just added more power to the already strong PC, And damnit I'm tired of having to add class levels to Friggen orcs. They should be a problem on thier own. What level are your PCs? Even in core, class levels are a must if you want orcs fighting your 5th level party. Frankly I'm tired of having to script my adventures to accomodate Axiomatic Goliath Warblade/Psions. PLAY A DAMNED DWARF FIGHTER. You know, the point of favored classes was to make multiclassing easier, not harder. Besides, there's no reason you can't come up with something that's just as tough, or tougher. Try getting the MMII, I've heard it's got "optimized monsters for optimized players". Or, ask around at the CO boards for some help souping up your baddies. My DM did that, and what a nightmare we had...
Witch 01-19-07, 05:56 PM	What I mean by overpowered for roleplaying is that BATTLE SHOULD BE ROLEPLAYED TOO! (caps lock is cruise control for cool). But when the party has combat that lasts 3 rounds and they take out the group you worked on for a week, the Dm doesn't have any fun either. I have no problems balancing fun hack and slash with roleplay. But all of the latest suppliments have just added more power to the already strong PC, And damnit I'm tired of having to add class levels to Friggen orcs. They should be a problem on thier own. Wait. How the hell do you play your monsters? Three rounds? You mean they're already in melee, right? Ever tried to control the battlefield? Wall of Force? Flight? Persistent Image? Mirage Arcana? Grease? I've discovered these spells when I was trying to pose a challenge to my players rather than kill them. It proved highly effective. It actually made them think. And a few maneuvers aren't going to change anything about that.
Leress 01-19-07, 05:58 PM	They're smarter than most of us in the subject of DnD. Still doesn't make them right, and not everyone is working together on every single book. They write books and errata. No amount of whining will make them go, "Herm, let's change our entire thought process on a book we marketed!" Doesn't mean we still can't say it. In short, and no offense meant to any party: Deal. Or change it. *brought to you by the foundation for RULE 0*
Richmud 01-19-07, 05:59 PM	Thats not what I'm saying. Why does everyone think that I'm trying to put them down. What I mean by overpowered for roleplaying is that BATTLE SHOULD BE ROLEPLAYED TOO! (caps lock is cruise control for cool). But when the party has combat that lasts 3 rounds and they take out the group you worked on for a week, the Dm doesn't have any fun either. I have no problems balancing fun hack and slash with roleplay. But all of the latest suppliments have just added more power to the already strong PC, And damnit I'm tired of having to add class levels to Friggen orcs. They should be a problem on thier own. Frankly I'm tired of having to script my adventures to accomodate Axiomatic Goliath Warblade/Psions. PLAY A DAMNED DWARF FIGHTER. Umm...roleplaying a fighter in combat really isn't a lot of fun, they don't do much beyond hit things. A warblade on the other hand can do all sorts of cool maneuvers to roleplay in battle
Crashy75 01-19-07, 06:00 PM	Some of us hate ToB after using it. But then we get screamed at for not liking it because the powergamers Creamed thier Jeans over it. ToB is to overpowered for ROLEPLAYING GAMES, but it is a fantastic resource for MUNCHKIN d20. *ducks* LOL... The munchkins go CoD. Period. EDIT: Some go wizard.
DM Denubis 01-19-07, 06:20 PM	Listen to Tempest Stormwind. His wisdom is that of worlds. Warblade is, yeah, a bit tougher than Fighter. A tiny bit. But it's also a hell of a lot of fun to play. Much more fun than "I bop him with my greatsword." over and over again. The classes are new and interesting, but I don't see them as being overpowered. Like Tempest said, they're about on the level of a decent Barbarian. Give the book a chance, and I bet you'll find that you really like it.
claypigeons 01-19-07, 06:34 PM	Something occured to me while reading this thread (and the other half dozen like it that pop up every week)... (forgive me if this has somehow changed..) But... is everyone that claims ToB is overpowered aware that most (not all, MOST) of the strikes presented require a standard action? At low levels you end up with a higher power than the average fighter are barbarian in most cases. At higher levels, I think it evens off and, in some cases the ToB classes even lag behind (though this is rare, I'm sure...)
Aggrenox 01-19-07, 06:42 PM	I gave it a chance and I hate it more than I hated any other book. Even incarnum. I just hate the flavor of that book. I'm not saying other people won't like it or it can't work, but for some games, this is a little world rattling.
krossbow 01-19-07, 06:44 PM	World rattling? The only thing rattling about this is that fighters now have strategies to set up in a fight (Okay, there are 5 of them there... I should us XX style to defeat them), as opposed to a simple hack.
Aggrenox 01-19-07, 06:50 PM	I have never realy had a problem with how fighters play. With creativity fighters can win battles without dealing damage.
fatal error 01-19-07, 06:54 PM	I have never realy had a problem with how fighters play. With creativity fighters can win battles without dealing damage. Full Attack. Full Attack. Full Attack. Yes, that is where Fighters are at their best. No, that is not an exciting way to play. Anything a Fighter can do with creativity any other class can do with creativity, it doesn't make the Fighter good. But, that is a senseless argument to get into if you don't have a problem with fighters anyway. If you hate the book some much, why are you trying to expand it to cover casters as well? Furthermore, I guess I'm just flavor-blind, because I find Tome of Battle stuff works just fine in my Renaissance Venice style campaign, and I don't have any doubts it would work in a Viking-like campaign either. If you just take the mechanical effects and describe them however fits your world, it should fit just fine. As for the whole oriental enlightenment flavor, it really isn't a key part of the book, in my opinion.
Aggrenox 01-19-07, 07:05 PM	I'm tired of pointing this out. People like this book, I'm attempting to find ways to addapt to it. I hate it like I hate Beatles movies. I want to expand my campaigns to be open for these classes.
Iarmeister 01-19-07, 07:20 PM	After reading through the book,which I more or less really like, and comparing the ToB classes to existing martial classes I have reached the conclusion that they are too powerful. Don't get me wrong, I love the flavour of the classes (especially swordsage), and I feel that the crusader and swordsage were done well. The warblade was not. The only disadvantage they have is not being able to use heavy armour, other than that, they have (IMHO) access to the best maneuver trees (Iron Heart (sp?) FTW!), have d12 hit die, full BAB, plus sweet abilities, and oh, they can get ALL their maneuvers back in a single round. Plus they can use two stances simultaneously, lets say, get DR 5/- as a Su, and... (don't have book on me)... I find it unrealistic that maneuvers can be regained in this way since they appear fairly comparable with spells of the same level, which take much longer to regain. My (modest) changes to the classes; reduce each class skill points by 2 (I believe resulting in 2 for crusader, 4 for swordsage, and 2 for warblade, correct me if I'm wrong). Why do they receive so many skill points? The thing which I know will generate a lot of controversy from the boards, remove the ability to regain maneuvers (strikes/boosts) while in an encounter for all classes. However, this may be too harsh (especially for the crusader), so can anyone give me an idea of how to approach what I believe to be a problem? (or give another lovely discourse on how CoDzilla is overpowered, hence ToB classes are ok?!?!?) I'm open for plain discussion, and no, I'm not trolling. (Side rant: I HATE the phrase P.E.A.C.H., and talk about 4.0). Well...you prefaced your entire argument by saying that you've 'read' the book. My question to you is: Have you tried playing a Martial Adept, or DM'ing for one yet? I have (sword sage), and I do (my friend is playing a Warblade character in the Red Hand of Doom campaign), and I've got to tell ya, mate, the classes are definitely a step up from the core fighter. But, there is nothing really game shaking, or world rattling, about them. They have tons of options available to them, and that makes the experience of playing one very engaging, and it creates the enviable challenge of dm'ing for them greater, true. But, it also gives me reason to start leveling up some enemies that could become returning arch-villains/nemesis. ToB, as is, is definitely a step in the right direction. Before trying to change anything about it, I would highly recommend playing and dm'ing first. You might find it fits well with your campaigns and needs no modifications.
Aryxbez 01-19-07, 07:22 PM	I love the TOB however do wish the Wiz-O would balance the other warrior types so that they don't suck compared to the martial adepts I think they do a good job and all.. just I think they need to actually fix the problems or just make the good classes on these boards official like One_Winged_4ngels Paladin Ottos Fighter,swashbuckler, and Barbarian Also what I don't like is how at high levels combat is just nothing but coward like tactics, like everyone flies and shoots their super lasers at each other and combat lasts only 3 rounds. Monsters take Hundreds of damage upon hundreds of damage, which their HP they will only survive for about 3 rounds, If that much. Sa le vee, sometimes just got to live with what you hate.
Crashy75 01-19-07, 08:33 PM	I'm tired of pointing this out. People like this book, I'm attempting to find ways to addapt to it. I hate it like I hate Beatles movies. I want to expand my campaigns to be open for these classes. What do you mean by this statement? I'd probably be willing to help.
Phelot_Plaguecrafter 01-19-07, 09:04 PM	-sigh- I am actually surprised at this. I mean, I go to the forums a lot, and I see a lot of stupid trash. But these "Balance stuff because I said so and I have no basis in fact!" threads are really really getting old. I don't understand how people can be so adamant about this. Look, here's the deal: 1. Casters were always better than meleers. 2. Meleers now have a lot of sweet stuff they can do. 3. Meleers can kill stuff now. 4. Casters are still better. If you really hate Wizards THAT much for making a book like this, exclude it from your campaign and move on with your life. Don't sit here and preach about balance and fairness unless you have either foundation in your beliefs or enough authority to not have foundation. And in all honesty, I have not found one person that has either authority or foundation. So, please, prove me wrong and let me believe that there is someone worth arguing with in this world, but don't sit and rant and rave and flame other posters for being munchkins or for calling other people munchkins or sit here and grill Wizards for making imbalanced things. I'm not responding on this thread anymore. If I wanted to hear casters whine, I would play more WoW.
theotherdraxen 01-19-07, 09:46 PM	I gave it a chance and I hate it more than I hated any other book. Even incarnum. I just hate the flavor of that book. I'm not saying other people won't like it or it can't work, but for some games, this is a little world rattling. I agree with Crashy: if you're trying to adapt the flavor for ToB, start up a thread on What's a DM to do? and I'm more than willing to help you.
SlatzGrubnik 01-19-07, 11:11 PM	Well.. it's real simple... play it first.. if you dont like it, then dont play, or include, it in your games otherwise just have fun, it's just a game :P
Roland_of_the_Eld 01-21-07, 02:23 AM	A 20 Warblade is super powered. A 20 Wizards is super powered. A 20 Fighter is super powered. A 20 Druid is super powered. Wizards isn't retarded. They're smarter than most of us in the subject of DnD. They write books and errata. No amount of whining will make them go, "Herm, let's change our entire thought process on a book we marketed!" A 20 Wizards is super powered. Wizards isn't retarded. They're smarter than most of us in the subject of DnD. Wizards...Wizards... Seeing a trend? You seriously need to clarify. I've been sitting here scratching my head trying to figure out which Wizards represents the class and which one represents the company. And anyway, I sure as heck hope they're smarter than us on the subject of the game that they are making up. If, say, a car manufacturer didn't know jack about making cars, I would be terrified. Then I would remember that its ok, its only Ford. So unless Wizards = Ford, then you need to deal with your grammar.