Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Steelcrystal 05-16-04, 01:07 PM	Though part of this pertains to Unearthed Arcana specifically, I felt the topic justified posting it in the Classes section as well. In the next campaign I'm running, I plan on utilizing several of the variants out of Unearthed Arcana. The most notable for Wizards and Sorcerers are the Wound Point/Vitality System, and the Spell Point System with the Vitalizing variant. I will be using these variants as they are written in UA. I'm making certain house rule changes to the two classes as well, changes which are mostly due to the flavor of the campaign and my particular spin on the two classes. These changes are as follows: Sorcerer: Unless otherwise noted, refer to the sorcerer entry in the PHB for class information. All revisions to the class are presented below. Hit Die: d4 Class Skills: Add Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), and Use Magic Device (Cha). Familiar: A sorcerer pays 20xp to summon his familiar, rather than the 100gp that a wizard spends. Spells Known: Use table 3-16: Spells per Day for both spells per day and spells known. Sorcerous Power: A sorcerer draws his power from within, and his spells are made manifest by virtue of this power alone. A sorcerer does not utilize material components as other casters do. They ignore material components and focuses that do not have listed prices, and pay 1/5th the gp cost of material components and 1/50th the gp cost of foci in XP each time they wish to cast a spell that requires them. These costs reduce to 1/10th the gp cost of material components and 1/100th the gp cost of foci at 10th level. Sorcerous Power only applies to sorcerer spells cast by the character; if he has additional levels in another caster class, he must abide by all standard rules for casting as a member of that class. Certain rare exceptions exist to this power, such as the gem required for the Trap the Soul spell, or the receptacle for Magic Jar. Such components are integral to the functioning of the spell itself, and are still required for the sorcerer to utilize the spell. A sorcerer may never take the Scribe Scroll feat, as the process of imbuing a scroll with arcane power is an entirely thaumaturgical one. Sorcerers are capable of deciphering scrolls, however, and unlocking the energy stored in them. As such, they are able to cast spells from scrolls as normal. Thematic Spell: Every sorcerer has a slightly different style of casting; each has his or her own theme, his own manifestation of his inner power. He is more effective when casting spells strongly linked to this theme, and any spell the sorcerer casts reflects this signature theme to a greater or lesser extent. A spell theme is comprised of two components. The first is a set of spells central to the theme. The second component is a common visual or auditory effect all the sorcerer’s spells share, such as “fire”, “ice”, or “screaming skulls.” Choose a theme at 1st level. The sorcerer can cast spells designated as central to his theme at +1 caster level, and adds +1 to the DC of these spells. The sorcerer chooses an additional spell to be central to his theme at each even sorcerer level. Add +5 to the DC of any Spellcraft check made to identify any spell the sorcerer casts, whether or not it is central to his theme. The second component is a superficial manifestation, unique to each sorcerer. The special effect does not change the spells in any way, other than making the spell harder to recognize by those attempting to identify it. For example, if the sorcerer’s theme is "fire," then his or her magic missile spell might appear to produce bolts of fire, although the bolts are still a force effect and cause damage as normal. If the theme is "screaming skulls," the sorcerer’s fly spell might manifest as a dozen small screaming skulls that orbit him or her, bearing the sorcerer aloft. This visual or auditory effect may include a physical manifestation affecting the caster himself. For instance, if the casters theme is fire, he may choose to have his eyes blaze with flame as he casts his spells. This choice is also made at 1st level, and the decision is final once made; the caster may not suppress this physical manifestation if he chooses to adopt one – it is an integral part of his casting. Wizard: A wizard may never take the Eschew Material Components feat, as spell components are essential to wizardly thaumaturgy. Thaumaturgy is somewhat more potent than Sorcery, however, and a wizard’s spells are cast at +1 DC. edit: made significant adjustments to sorcerer build. edit: by popular demand, lowering wizards blanket DC increase to +1. edit: removed Bluff and added Use Magic Device. edit: changed sorcerer back to d4 hit dice, adjusted spells known list to match spells per day list, giving access to more spells. edit: clarified thematic casting, and added +1 to the DCs of all spells central to the sorcerer's theme.
BlaineTog 05-16-04, 01:22 PM	There is no way of compensating in the Spell Points system for the Sorcerer. That system, frankly, makes the sorcerer wholly obscolete. And your house rules basically say "Wizards are the only casters good at magic, 'cuz sorcerers are just half-assed knockoffs." First of all, get rid of the DC bonus, or make it a bonus to Spellcraft DC. Secondly, force the Wizard to prepare spells with the spell points. Thirdly, use this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=224419) Sorcerer ;).
Steelcrystal 05-16-04, 02:44 PM	And your "revision" does nothing but take the problem in the exact opposite direction, making Sorcerers far superior to wizards. I'm seeking balance here, not to tip the see-saw in the other direction. You do have some good material there, though, which I may be able to utilize in my own revision. Have you given any thought to how the two classes could interact with the spell point system without the Sorcerer lagging behind? I admit the system does ramp up the power of wizards and diminish the advantages of the sorcerer, but honestly, the spell point system feels much more like the way magic should work, in my personal take on it.
TheEmperor 05-16-04, 03:38 PM	and a wizard’s spells are cast at +2 DC Ok, lets give the wizard two more free feats. Acually 2 x all the schools. I normally stay out of sorcerer/wizard discussions, but I don't see any reason, other than for RP, why someone would play a sorcerer under these conditions.
Haldrik 05-16-04, 03:45 PM	Ironically, the name of this thread is "Balancing Wizard and Sorcerer", but it should have been named "Obliterating the Sorcerer, once and for all."
Sensei Gith 05-16-04, 04:22 PM	Steelcrystal, that trade is ridiculous. One crap feat with almost no mechanical benefit for Greater Spell Focus in every school? The wizard does not need to be boosted far above the sorcerer, since he is already there. The way to balance the sorcerer is give him what the wizard gets: bonus feats and Quicken Spell. Eschew materials is useless but flavorful gravy.
BlaineTog 05-16-04, 05:34 PM	Originally posted by Steelcrystal And your "revision" does nothing but take the problem in the exact opposite direction, making Sorcerers far superior to wizards.It most certainly does not! We've barely done anything, really. That sorcerer is basically balanced off of the core sorcerer, + feats right now. Look closely. Everything is, in and of itself, balanced. I'm seeking balance here, not to tip the see-saw in the other direction.No, you are seeking to make the wizard infinitelly better. The UA spell points system steals the sorcerer's only real advantage and hands it to the wizard. In addition you wish to make the wizard's flavor to be "THe wizard is the only *real* caster." You do have some good material there, though, which I may be able to utilize in my own revision.:tiphat: Have you given any thought to how the two classes could interact with the spell point system without the Sorcerer lagging behind?Yes. Force the Wizard to prepare his spells just like always, but using spell points. I admit the system does ramp up the power of wizards and diminish the advantages of the sorcererFirst of all, the sorcerer is already less powerful than the wizard. Spell Points makes the sorcerer infinitelly more inferior, and your "addition" adds insult to injury. but honestly, the spell point system feels much more like the way magic should work, in my personal take on it.Fine then. Obliterate the sorcerer and make one "Mage" then. Perhaps give them a choice at first level whether to me inborn casters (and therefore having Eschew Materials and using a staff to cast their spells. Perhaps give them a metamagic or two or something) or studious casters (with scribe scroll and a spellbook).
Steelcrystal 05-16-04, 05:56 PM	Heh, thanks for the comments folks. I've never managed to stir up that much kindling in such a brief post before, I feel so special. I've been working on my revision for the Sorcerer, take a look and tell me what you think of it now. As far as the wizard save DC increase, I'll consider lowering it to +1 across the board, but quite honestly, I've always felt spell save DCs were ridiculously low as it is, and I've played some high level casters with absolutely off the scale stats. I don't feel a +1 or +2 at any level is going to ruin a game, and nobody is going to convince me that those laughable Spell Focus feats are balanced in any way shape or form as they stand currently. +1 to one school is a joke. Say what you want, but +1 to one school is an absolute, sick joke.
BlaineTog 05-16-04, 06:03 PM	Originally posted by Steelcrystal As far as the save DC increase, I'll consider lowering it to +1 across the board, but quite honestly, I've always felt spell save DCs were ridiculously low as it is, and I've played some high level casters with absolutely off the scale stats.A) +1 to both the Sorcerer *and* the wizard is, IMO, thinkable. It downpowers the offensive Clerics/Druids somewhat. B) Save DCs *should* be low. When the enemy has to either make that DC or die, the odds should be in his favor. I don't feel a +1 or +2 at any level is going to ruin a gameIt's not that I think the +2 to DCs is in and of itself overpowered (it is, but thats not my objection), but that you gave it to the wizard with the expressed intention to make the wizard a better caster than the sorcerer. and nobody is going to convince me that those laughable Spell Focus feats are balanced in any way shape or form as they stand currently. +1 to one school is a joke. Say what you want, but +1 to one school is an absolute, sick joke.They are completley balanced if you specialize (literally and figuratively). If every spell you're belting out is an Enchantment, then you are going to want to increase its DC, and you don't really care about the DCs of your Necrmancy spells.
Teh Lurv 05-16-04, 06:31 PM	Originally posted by BlaineTog It most certainly does not! We've barely done anything, really. That sorcerer is basically balanced off of the core sorcerer, + feats right now. Look closely. Everything is, in and of itself, balanced. :heehee What an understatement. Originally posted by BlaineTog Fine then. Obliterate the sorcerer and make one "Mage" then. Perhaps give them a choice at first level whether to me inborn casters (and therefore having Eschew Materials and using a staff to cast their spells. Perhaps give them a metamagic or two or something) or studious casters (with scribe scroll and a spellbook). Hey, I like this idea. Get rid of the Sorcerer class for D&D 4.0! :D
BlaineTog 05-16-04, 06:43 PM	Originally posted by Teh Lurv :heehee What an understatement.Actually, its true. Hey, I like this idea. Get rid of the Sorcerer class for D&D 4.0! :DActually, its "Get rid of Vancian spellcasting for DnD 4.0."
Sensei Gith 05-16-04, 06:49 PM	Spell DC's are not too low. You don't need to hand more cheese to the casters. DC's in the mid 30's are not difficult to achieve. Spell Focus is a great feat, because one or two adds +1 to the DC's of every spell you cast. Transmutation is probably the best.
Steelcrystal 05-16-04, 09:18 PM	I don't know what kinds of wizards you're playing Gith, but every wizard I've ever played WASN'T a specialist. I use all sorts of magic from all the schools. For me, and basically every other spellcaster I've ever played with in a game, Spell focus has been a complete waste because we generally used a lot of spells from different schools. Yeah, we all tend to favor one over others, but you're deluding yourself if you believe that using a feat for a +1 to DCs for a single school is even vaguely worth it. I had my reservations about it back in 3rd edition when it was +2. I've only ever had one caster with DCs in the 30s, and he had intelligence in the high 30s at the time. You know what? Most of his spells got resisted by monsters with ridiculously high saves, specifically because they do "balance" things in favor of the defender. Makes it feel pretty good throwing spells around when the enemy resists them 80% of the time. Compare that to a fighter who with his primary attack will almost certainly hit any non-epic target he throws himself against for pretty respectable damage each round. And if you try to suggest using that orange ioun stone trick, I'm just going to ignore it. I don't see that as a viable tactic for raising spell DCs. I see it as a gross abuse of the rules, and a dumb looking mental image to boot.
BlaineTog 05-16-04, 09:30 PM	Originally posted by Steelcrystal I've only ever had one caster with DCs in the 30s, and he had intelligence in the high 30s at the time. You know what? Most of his spells got resisted by monsters with ridiculously high saves, specifically because they do "balance" things in favor of the defender.Things *do* need to favor the defender, for two reasons. First of all, if they *do* fail, they die. Secondly, anything that makes the system more deadly inherently favors the NPCs. It's all well and good ot be belting out DC 30 Will and Fort saves, but how would you like to face those? Makes it feel pretty good throwing spells around when the enemy resists them 80% of the time. Compare that to a fighter who with his primary attack will almost certainly hit any non-epic target he throws himself against for pretty respectable damage each round.Yeah, but the fighter *has* to hit more often. He can't kill off the baddies with only one hit (or if he can, so can you, since they are weak enough). 20% success rate is pretty darn good, if you ask me, although I have a hunch you're either being hyperbolic or you sent monsters up against their strong saves. Wizards should make good use of their Knoweldge skills to learn which save the enemies are weak in. Actually, there's a few spells in Magic of Faerun that do this too. Priceless spells, those. And if you try to suggest using that orange ioun stone trick, I'm just going to ignore it. I don't see that as a viable tactic for raising spell DCs. I see it as a gross abuse of the rules, and a dumb looking mental image to boot.Orange Ioun Stones don't stack. Like unnamed bonuses from the same type of source *never* stack. Whoa, sorry about that. We're going off topic, and I'm helping to propogate it. I apologize. Here's my point: the +2 to DC (while giving more power to an already overpowered class) is bad becasue it says that the wizard is a fundamentally better caster than the sorcerer. Savvy? And by the way: ditch the d6. Its completely unnecessary and makes no sense to boot.
Sensei Gith 05-16-04, 09:38 PM	You do not take spell focus. You have problems with monsters' saves. I take spell focus. I do not have problems with monsters' saves. That's good enough for me.
Wizard 05-16-04, 09:43 PM	Originally posted by BlaineTog Like unnamed bonuses from the same type of source *never* stack. I think and hope you're correct about that, but I couldn't find it anywhere. Support, please? :confused:
BlaineTog 05-16-04, 11:47 PM	As much as I hate to admit it, I think that this was from one of Skip's rulings. I honestly don't know exactly where its from though. It seems to make sense to me though.
ManTimeForgot 05-17-04, 12:37 AM	Ok now ask yourself if you think an extra 1 hp per level, +5 DC to spellcraft checks versus your spells, +1 caster level for a limited selection of spells, and added class skills that the sorceror does not have enough skill points to take is equivalent in value to +2 DC to all spells? I'm ignoring the no scribe scroll change because it seems balanced against the no eschew components feat. The wizard doesn't gain a lot out of eschew components since he has to hunt down components for his item creation anyway. The sorceror doesn't gain a lot out of scribe scroll since he can already cast all the spells he knows whenever he wants. I think its pretty obvious that the wizard is favored in your change. Spell thematics is largely a flavor change, and the added skills points are likewise more flavor than susbstance. The only real substantive mechanical change is the bonus hps, but you can't really expect me to believe that +2 DC is equal to the hp gain. Here's my go at "balancing" the two classes. Sorceror is a d4. Sorceror gets use magic device, and loses bluff (why did they even get bluff?). Spontaneous metamagic no longer requires that ridiculous increase in time. Additionally they can spend an extra full round casting for each +1 level requirement beyond the highest spell level they can cast in order to cast a metamagicked spell (which if memory serves was a part of the first edition printing of 3.0, don't know why this was removed). Of course this also means the psion would have to change too, but I've got no prob with that. So anyway back to the sorceror, the sorceror would get that spell thematics stuff because it would make sense that the sorceror would have it. Additionally I like the sorcererous casting mechanic too, of course this is something of a penalty too since it means the sorc will be using up exp instead of gold. Ok and to "make up" for this we are going to decrease the wizard's reliance on the spellbook by pulling what I believe it was Tony Vargas suggested and have the wizard gain automatic spell mastery with all spells they gain at level up. Additionally the wizard is going to gain 3 spells at level up instead of 2 (I see this as making up for the better metamagicking). Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
BlaineTog 05-17-04, 12:54 AM	*uh-hum* Just so you know, most of those changes he made are from The Composite Sorcerer (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=224419). And like I said, this obviously favor the wizard--a lot. The Spell Point system as written lets the wizard prepare some spells in the morning and then cast them as a sorcerer all day.
ManTimeForgot 05-17-04, 01:10 AM	Yeah Tog man I know they were, I do actually read most of the threads. That said yeah I know his "changes" favor the wizard, I flat out stated as such. I don't think steelcrystal realized just how many of his changes were simply flavor related and had almost no mechanical bearing on the power of the class. Edit: sry meant steelcrystal instead of castle mike. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
BlaineTog 05-17-04, 01:16 AM	Aighty. I actually do agree with you. Bluff doesn't make a whole lot of sense, in retrospect, although I can kinda see it (if you stretch the "diplomat" montage a lot).
Haldrik 05-17-04, 01:27 AM	Steel Crystal: Sorcerer: Unless otherwise noted, refer to the sorcerer entry in the PHB for class information. All revisions to the class are presented below. Hit Die: d6 A Sorcerer with d6 HD? Say it with me, ... B ... ... ard B ... ard Bard. Yaaayyy! Bard! Just use the Bard. Since you evicerated the Sorcerer class as a primary spellcaster, how about remove it from your campaign and go with the Battle Sorcerer instead? (Also from Unearthed Arcana.) The Battle Sorcerer seems to be a "High Power" class that is not broken and might be more of what you have in mind?
Steelcrystal 05-17-04, 01:38 AM	A few things: I have edited the reviled +2 to wizards DCs down to +1. BlaineTog: Tell me how a sorcerer who spends his life out doing normal things and honing his magic within himself having the same hit dice as a wizard who spends his every waking hour hunched over in a library staring at a book makes any sense. The sorcerer's description flat out states they don't undergo the same sort of training as a wizard, they don't spend their time in a library or academy. They have to be doing something with that time, and my assumption is that they probably do the same sorts of things with that time that a normal human does. Normal humans have a d6 hit die. Tell me how that DOESN'T make sense, especially when I'm trying to balance out the two classes here, by increasing the power of the sorcerer. Oh, and tell the people over on the Magic Items forum that the orange ioun stones don't stack, I've seen that trick posted there more times than I care to remember. I've never seen an official ruling on it myself, though I personally would never let that stack in a game. SenseiGith: I DO take spell focus with my wizards. That doesn't mean I like it as it stands currently, and in my own games I run it the way it was back in 3rd edition, with the +2. It never caused a problem back in 3rd edition at +2, and it still doesn't. ManTimeForgot: The spell point system presented in Unearthed Arcana already does away with sorcerers needing a full-round action to cast metamagic spells. I did fully realize that many of my changes were flavor related.(And BlaineTog, take note that I actually did add on to your Spell Thematics ability to add even more flavor, it's in the bottom paragraph. Feel free to glom that for your build as well if you like it, with my compliments.) My players are heavy into roleplay, and one of my main beefs with the sorcerer as written in the PHB is that he lacks any sort of flavor whatsoever. My players don't generally care if they're playing the most powerful class. They don't immediately go for the most broken race/class/prestige combos out there, they do enjoy roleplaying different things, and trying out different builds. For that reason, I felt it was at least as important to make this sorcerer build as unique as possible from a roleplaying sense as it was to raise their power from a mechanics sense. I like your idea of adding Use Magic Device, think I'll glom that. With the 3.5 experience distribution system, anybody who is trailing in exp eventually starts making it up faster than the other party members, so the problem of paying exp. to cast spells is a self-correcting issue and not much of a hindrance at all. Considering it means never having to screw with material components again, I'd happily take that tradeoff myself. As far as buffing up the wizard, I like your ideas (and Tony's), but frankly I'm happy with giving them the +1 DCs to saves, and calling it done. I don't see a need to fix what isn't broken, they're powerful enough as it is (and more powerful than before with my addition), even with the inability to ever take eschew materials. Baldrik: Umm, how about I don't just use a bard, since it's a very distinctive and different class than the sorcerer? I also love how you say I'm eviscerating the sorcerer when if you look at mine (and I use the term "Mine" loosely, granting credit to Blaine and the crew that worked on his sorcerer build) compared to the original, it's much stronger in just about every way. Do you even know how the spell point system in UA works? The sorcerer is gaining some major advantages using that system over the original 3.5 textbook sorcerer, even without my enhancements. I'm certainly willing to let people play the battle sorcerer in my game if they wish, but I wouldn't make that a replacement for the sorcerer. I barely consider that a primary caster class anymore, as few spells as they know. And I certainly wouldn't call it "high powered".
BlaineTog 05-17-04, 01:48 AM	Originally posted by Steelcrystal A few things: I have edited the reviled +2 to wizards DCs down to +1.Good. Now either eliminate it entierly or give it to the sorcerer as well. BlaineTog: Tell me how a sorcerer who spends his life out doing normal things and honing his magic within himself having the same hit dice as a wizard who spends his every waking hour hunched over in a library staring at a book makes any sense.A) Tell me how the sorcerer gets the same hit die as the rogue or bard and we'll talk. B) Commoners spend their lives out doing normal things. C) While the wizard was in the library shifting through books, the sorcerer was in the quad, moving his hands around, following vague ideas of patterns until he "got" it enough to bust out with a ray of frost or two. He was *not* outside, body building, or fencing, or gainign endurance. That type of training is signified wit ha level of fighter, barbarian, etc. or Toughness. The sorcerer's description flat out states they don't undergo the same sort of training as a wizard, they don't spend their time in a library or academy. They have to be doing something with that time, and my assumption is that they probably do the same sorts of things with that time that a normal human does."Normal" humans are commoners. They get a d4. Normal humans have a d6 hit die.d4. Tell me how that DOESN'T make sense, especially when I'm trying to balance out the two classes here, by increasing the power of the sorcerer.Because it *doesn't* increse the power of the sorcerer. Not a bit. A d6 is for those who might, on occasion, think about going into melee. A sorcerer that melees is a dead sorcerer. Oh, and tell the people over on the Magic Items forum that the orange ioun stones don't stack, I've seen that trick posted there more times than I care to remember. I've never seen an official ruling on it myself, though I personally would never let that stack in a game.I'd love to, and I will (just as soon as I find that darn ruling). SenseiGith: I DO take spell focus with my wizards. That doesn't mean I like it as it stands currently, and in my own games I run it the way it was back in 3rd edition, with the +2. It never caused a problem back in 3rd edition at +2, and it still doesn't. Just like haste, eh? ManTimeForgot: The spell point system presented in Unearthed Arcana already does away with sorcerers needing a full-round action to cast metamagic spells.Wooptee do. It also gives wizards spontaneous casting with the ability to swap out their spells every single morning. As far as buffing up the wizard, I like your ideas (and Tony's), but frankly I'm happy with giving them the +1 DCs to saves, and calling it done. I don't see a need to fix what isn't broken, they're powerful enough as it is (and more powerful than before with my addition), even with the inability to ever take eschew materials.Who in their right mind would ever take Eschew Materials? That is a wasted feat slot better spend on *anything*. Its use is so situational as to be laughable.
Steelcrystal 05-17-04, 02:13 AM	--A) Tell me how the sorcerer gets the same hit die as the rogue or bard and we'll talk. You are correct about the commoners having d4, I could have sworn they had a d6, so I apologize on that point. I'm still inclined to grant them a slightly higher hit die than wizards though. --Because it *doesn't* increse the power of the sorcerer. Not a bit. A d6 is for those who might, on occasion, think about going into melee. A sorcerer that melees is a dead sorcerer. I'm curious, have you never had a caster take damage from a trap? Fall down a flight of stairs? Get snuck up on from behind? Get caught in the blast radius of a fireball? A few extra hp is going to help anybody, especially a class that traditionally had a d4. Melee is not the only situation where hp helps a character. I think we can agree on that. --Wooptee do. It also gives wizards spontaneous casting with the ability to swap out their spells every single morning. Umm, they've always had the ability to swap out their spells once a day, so what? Yes, it does make wizards more versatile than before, but that really doesn't bother me, it makes all casters more versatile than they used to be, including sorcerers. The idea of memorizing spells in slots and "memorizing" multiple copies of the same spell have never made much sense to me. I don't care if it's magic or not, how much sense does it make that you can "memorize" the same thing twice in your mind? Ah well, that's a different tangent for a different thread. --Who in their right mind would ever take Eschew Materials? That is a wasted feat slot better spend on *anything*. Its use is so situational as to be laughable. I've taken it, and enjoyed having it. You know what else? I also took Ignore Material components with my epic Wiz/Clr/MyTh. And if you tell me Ignore Material components isn't worth the prerequisite of eschew materials, you have some deep, deep issues to work out. There is nothing wrong with the eschew material components feat, unless you do nothing but build min/maxed cookie cutter wizard/archmages in a game where your DM isn't creative enough to put you in a situation where you just might run out of spell components. This isn't the character optimization board, so I assume some of you actually do build characters with good roleplaying in mind. If I'm wrong, I apologize, and Eschew Materials is a worthless feat.
BlaineTog 05-17-04, 02:34 AM	Originally posted by Steelcrystal You are correct about the commoners having d4, I could have sworn they had a d6, so I apologize on that point. I'm still inclined to grant them a slightly higher hit die than wizards though.Thats cool. Thye really don't need the increases hit die though. It also undermines the "Primary Arcane Spellcaster" motif, though. I'm curious, have you never had a caster take damage from a trap? Fall down a flight of stairs? Get snuck up on from behind? Get caught in the blast radius of a fireball? A few extra hp is going to help anybody, especially a class that traditionally had a d4. Melee is not the only situation where hp helps a character. I think we can agree on that.Sure. But IMX melee is the only place where you consistently take damage. A trap generally isn't that bi a deal since its a one-time thing. As long as it doesn't kill you from the initial damage (which, generall, it won't/can't), the party cleric / UMDing Rogue / etc can heal you up. Umm, they've always had the ability to swap out their spells once a day, so what?Sorcerer's haven't though. Spontaneous casting is only really balanced because its hard to change your spell selection, which a spell-point wizard doesn't have to worry about. Yes, it does make wizards more versatile than before,Please, look at the system and tell me with a straight face: what does the sorcerer have tha tthe wizard doesn't? The answer is nothing, not really. but that really doesn't bother me, it makes all casters more versatile than they used to be, including sorcerers.The sorcerer doesn't get very much out of it. He's got a little bit more versatility with his spells, but the spell point system doesn't really give him any huge new frontier. Now the wizard... the wizard gets a twofold boost. First of all, before he was limited to 1 or 2 castings up the new spell level per day. One ofthe few perks of being a sorcerer is that you arn't going ot run out of your new spell level as fast. However, in this new system, not only is the wizard free from preperation but he can also cast way more of the new spell level, the only level he really cares about anyway. A spell point system is doable, but you can't just exchange costs. The spells themselves need drastic alteration. Take a look at the 3.5 Psionics (in the SRD) and you'll see what I mean. Additionally, casters need *nerfing*, not boosting. They kick alotgeter too much ass at mid->high levels already. Why boost them *more*? The idea of memorizing spells in slots and "memorizing" multiple copies of the same spell have never made much sense to me.Welcome to 3ED. Wizards "prepare" their spells, which has a semblance of logic to it. I don't care if it's magic or not, how much sense does it make that you can "memorize" the same thing twice in your mind? Ah well, that's a different tangent for a different thread.See above. [quoe]I've taken it, and enjoyed having it. You know what else? I also took Ignore Material components with my epic Wiz/Clr/MyTh. And if you tell me Ignore Material components isn't worth the prerequisite of eschew materials, you have some deep, deep issues to work out.[/quote]Epic messes every thing up. Its on a completelly different scale. First of all, you wern't taking Eschew Materials; you were paying the cost for a much much much better feat. Second of all, at Epic levels, you have more than a few feats to spare. At levels 1-20, they are in much shorter supply. And without Ignore to look forward to, its a wothless feat. There is nothing wrong with the eschew material components feat, unless you do nothing but build min/maxed cookie cutter wizard/archmages in a game where your DM isn't creative enough to put you in a situation where you just might run out of spell components.Why did I know this was coming? I must be a Seer (Psion 16 with the Clairsentience discipline ;)). Look: I enjoy RPing a lot, but I refuse to undercut myself *that much*. Eschew Materials, unless you're taking it as a Pre-req to a broken feat, is an even worse choice than Toughness. This isn't the character optimization board, so I assume some of you actually do build characters with good roleplaying in mind.I might start a foundation with the sole intent of stopping insults like this. Look: you want to insult me, you insult me. Don't do it in the round-about way. Its unbecoming. Just call me a munchkin. C'mon. You'll feel so much better. You'll be wrong, but you'll feel better. ;) If I'm wrong, I apologize, and Eschew Materials is a worthless feat.It is. There is no real use that you can get out of it. In certian situations, you may wish you had taken it, but those times will be so few and far between that any otehr feat will have seen more use. EM is like a RAW sorcerer with Quicken: theoretically, there are times you could use it, but in practice its a wasted feat slot.
Haldrik 05-17-04, 04:06 AM	Steal Crystal: Do you even know how the spell point system in UA works? The sorcerer is gaining some major advantages using that system over the original 3.5 textbook sorcerer. I am familiar with UA's spell point system. Giving the spell point system to the Wizard causes it to vastly, vastly, vastly overpower the Sorcerer. Elsewhere, Haldrik: Spell Points (in the Unearthed Arcana). Looks good. I will never do Vancian spellcasting again! I think spellpoints makes Wizards way better than Sorcerers. I figure, Sorcerers need some serious fixing anyway. So, what matters most is just to have a good magic system. Wizard + spellpoints seems to be the solution. ... The spellpoint Wizard is way better than the spellslot Sorcerer because: First and foremost, the Wizard gets normal spell levels. The Sorcerer gets retarded spell levels, always one class level late. The Wizard has "virtually" as many spells per day as the Sorcerer because the Intelligence bonus lessens the difference, and about 10th level the Wizard never really runs out of spells anyway. The only advantage that the Sorcerer had was the ability to cast any spell the Sorcerer knew. Spell points now lets the Wizard do this too! The Wizard now has the Sorcerer's only advantage. Now, the Wizard's Spell table becomes the defacto Spells Known table. The Sorcerer has a cap of only 3 spells known for 6th-, 7th-, 8th-, and 9th-level spells. The Wizard's cap for all these spell levels is 4 spells known! Plus Intelligence bonuses! The Sorcerer is stuck with its Spells Known, forever and ever. It can only swap *1* spell, and only *once* when gaining an even level, and only at *4th level* and after. The Wizard, on the other hand, can swap its spells known ... every single day! Plus the Wizard gets everything the Sorcerer never gets: Scrolls, Bonus Feats. Even if Wizards must prepare their spells for 1 hour every day, so what! The Sorcerers have to "prepare" their spells for 15 minutes every day anyway. The Sorcerer just sucks. The spellpoint Wizard is utterly, utterly better. The spellpoint Wizard blasts the Sorcerer right out of the water. The Sorcerer class is now ridiculous. I feel sorry for the Sorcerer.
Haldrik 05-17-04, 05:09 AM	Steel Crystal: d6 The Sorcerer doesn't *need* an improvement in hit die. The Sorcerer *needs* an improvement in spellcasting performance! Give the Sorcerer more Spells Known, for example. That'll make the Sorcerer competative. The Wizard will have swappable "Spells Known per Day" while the Sorcerer will have more Spells Known but unchangeable. That might make them equal if they both use the same spell point system. Let the Sorcerer determine its number of Spells Known from the Spells per Day table instead of the Spells Known table. So by 20th level the Sorcerer will know 6 spells per spell level. See if that lets the Sorcerer equal the Wizard. (I cannot emphasize enough, how uber the Spell Point Wizard is.) Steel Crystal: I have edited the reviled +2 to wizards DCs down to +1. Blaine Tog: Good. Now either eliminate it entierly or give it to the sorcerer as well. Exactly, Blaine Tog! Steel Crystal, if you think low DC's are a universal problem for all spellcasters, why do you give the fix to the Wizard and not to the Sorcerer? Blatant favoritism! Regarding low DC's: Instead of: DC = 10 + spell level What about: DC = 10 + level/2 This makes most of the spells much tougher, but the highest level spells about the same, thus reducing insta-deaths. If you make this the universal mechanic it helps all the spellcasters, Wizard and Sorcerer alike, and others.
Steelcrystal 05-17-04, 05:41 PM	Made a few more adjustments to the sorcerer. Not much else to say about recent posts, as I don't really feel like arguing on side topics. And Blaine, I wasn't specifically talking about you when I made the comment about power gamers, if I was, trust me, I'd have said so. I believe this current build of sorcerer is much more versatile than before, and probably close to par with the wizard as I have him written. Are you guys still of the opinion this sorcerer is still weaker than the wizard when using the spell point system? Oh, and if anybody else is reading this, I'd appreciate some more viewpoints, so far it's really only been a couple of people chiming in here.
Sensei Gith 05-17-04, 07:27 PM	I DO take spell focus with my wizards. If you consider it powerful enough to warrant a feat slot, I don't see what you're complaining about. If it really is underpowered, you should take other feats in its place.
Master Ruphus 05-30-04, 10:31 PM	I still think the sorcerer is broke, I agree that they should not get the d6, what they need is a boost in spells/spell power to compensate for the advantages a wizard gets. So far what I have found to work extremely well, and I have posted this to the other Sorcerer Vs. Wizard posts. Give Sorcerers (and Bards) Bonus Spells Known based of their Charisma (just like they gain bonus spell slots per day) So now a level 1 sorcerer with 20 charisma (if your the min/maxer) will begin play knowing 2 more first level spells, and will know 1 additional 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th level spell, upon reaching the level to cast the spells. Do note, you only gain spells based on your permanent charsima, magic items and spells/potions/effects that have non permanent effects do not count towards knowing new spells. Sorcerers may also, upon reaching a new level, give up any 1 spell they know to learn a new spell of the level they gave up. Quicken spell actually functions like Quicken Spell should for Sorcerers (a quickened spell is cast as a free action) although, Sorcerers must still spend a full round casting any other metagic feat. So far this is made Sorcerer more appealing to me, and other people I play with. Granted we haven't used it for long, but so far it seems to bring them on par with other spell casters. Sage Ruphus Spellweaver